There will be no revolution

[Peacebomb]

Unfortuantely revolution is a dream. A dream worth fighting for, but just a dream. The people are too alienated for a revolution. Marx predicted that capitalistic societies will collapse becasue the worker is continually opressed. But the workers are far too drugged with alienation for this to happen. However capitalism will still end. But not because of class differences but because capitalism would have eaten itself up. Global warming, rising sea levels, drought, desertification will destroy capitalism....and the world with it. The deciding factor is not the economy as written by Marx but the enviroment. Any ideas on this friends?

[Valkyrie]

Yes, I believe that environmental factors has a greater chance of collapsing capitalism than class factions or an economic crisis will. It seems that since a revolution has not taken place as of yet in developed countries, that what will be the catalyst will have to be across the board affecting everyone no matter what the class distinction, and socialism will be put into place first as an emergency measure, and than lasting because that is the only way the human race will survive due to exhausted natural resources. So, yes, I think you are right.

[komsomol]

Quote from the introduction of the essential works of Lenin edited by Henry M Christman

"...Lenin completed another major work, Imperialism, the highest stage of Capitalism. In this book he looked beyond the traditional concept of Imperialism as the building of empires by subjugulation of territories and the subsequent exploitation of these colonies for raw material and as captive markets. He considered this type of Imperialism mereley a transitional stage to a new variety of Imperialism in which advanced, wealthy nations would dominate underdeveloped, poor nations by the simple device of exporting Capital. Thus, the capitalists of the advanced Western nations would neither need to extract raw materials from the underdeveloped nations, nor compel them to purchase finished manufactured goods; they would mereley sit back and collect continuous income from thier capital, while the exploited workers of the underdeveloped nations performed all the work. Lenin considered this the final, 'parasitic' stage of capitalism."

This portrays a situation a lot like that of today, well, in my country at least, since the UK was the "first industrialised nation". We should not be disenheartened by what our countrymen's attidude to Communism is. We must take the revolution when the underdeveloped nations develop a little more, and see the injustice of the world economy.

[PunkRawker677]

Peacebomb, i disagree. Revolution is not a dream, its a reality. Theres no IF, its WHEN. As the class gaps around the world widen (as they are already doing) greatly, then the people WILL get fed up and there will most likely be a massive armed struggle around the world.

[Pinko]

When the sea encroaches through their front door, will the workers not start to disbelieve the lies that they are being fed and rise up to reclaim the planet from the destruction of greed?

[timbaly]

I too don't believe that there will be a revolution, i see no signs. People don't know whats going on, either that or they except it. They except it because they too wish to be rich and powerful. They just aren't educated enough, socialism is being treated as a crazy radical ludacris idea

[Lefty]

....yeah...
so, peacebomb, whats worth fighting for then?

[Pinko]

It sounds more like a capitalist justification to roll over and capitulate, accept what is comming as inevitable and take it like the slaves you are.

[samaniego]

There will not be a revolution with out a revolutionary. A revolutionary is all the people need unfortunatly there are none to be found here at che lives. I would gladly like to be proven wrong by any one who has enough heart to die.

[Exploited Class]

Sure "a revolution" as we have seen in the past might not come, or we might never even see it coming. We have seen revolutions come in many forms, straight on battles like America Vs. Britain, or peaceful India Vs. Britain, we might see people just protest like Women Vs. America's men, or we might see boycots like Martin Luther King Jr Vs. Racism, we might even see power from within overtaken like in Russian's People Vs. The Ruling Class. Hell Revolution of Elvis' Rock Music vs. The Grain. It comes in so many forms, some of which I am sure we have yet to see. We may even just see the power fall apart, like Communist Russia Vs. The Western World.

The fact of the matter is that right now, America is showing all the signs of an Empire falling apart. It is treading on the rights of its people, waging wars, not listening to its allies, corruption from the top levels, CEO scandals, falling stock market, high unemployment, tighting of its grip. The tightening of its grip on its own people maybe the biggest sign that it is trying to hold power on to a system that is preparing to break free.

Americans right now are seeing the worst of their capitalist system. With a 6.8% unemployment rate, that is 6.8 percent of a population that has just learned what kind of love their system has for them by tossing them out and onto the street. People retiring with no retirment are seeing that the system thinks little of them and wants to give nothing to somebody who no longer has the ability to work. Rising health cost, wonderful health system for the few who can afford it, terriable HMO's, rising costs, CEO's making 480 times more than the average worker. Thier greed is getting handed back to them in the news everyday. The seattle WTO protest had over 40,000 people. People know about America's T.I.P.S. program that is having their own citizens turning in other citizens. It is adding up.

Rome fell when the people got too comfortable, and the smaller tribes of Germany attacked them all over till they no longer could function.

What new country is America's soldiers in today? Pakistan, Iraq, Saudia Arabia, Japan, Germany, Austria, Georgia, Chechnya, Kuwait, Turkey, Indonesia???

Do we need a leader? Hell yes, when and who? When the time is right, when the suffering is greatest and everybody is looking for reasons and turning away fromt he past with their heads directed solely on the future, then this person will be known.

[Ian]

Hey, I'll be the leader if you want! What do I need to do!? ;)

Seriously though, I see a dot-to-dot revolution taking shape, all we need to do is connect the dots...

[Dhul Fiqar]

If you make leader Ian, could you make "Minister of Jihad"? :biggrin:

--- G. Raven

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Seiously revlotion is always going to exist.Evem a small change is a form of revolution you just have to fight for It and never stop believing in It.
Ian can I be "minister of guerrilla youth"?

[Ian]

Yes, you can all be those things... and because I saw your iniciative and enterprise in approaching me I have decided to make a collective leadership so far it is Dhul Fiqar, Guardia Bolivariano and myself, any other takers?!

[Ymir]

I nominate Mazdak for chief of Secret Police.

Oh and I declare myself the betrayer of the revolution,

I'm the man that kills the previous members and then creates a 3rd world country into a superpower

[MJM]

Good inspiring stuff exploitedclass.
I think the enviromental issues will be the only chance to mobilise the working class. When the refugees from places like bangladesh and the pacific islands need somewhere to move to because of rising sea levels people willstop and think.
My solution, leftist should be moving towards the green parties and enviromental groups. Hopefully this will stop all the in fighting and constant animosity towards different idealogical groups.

[Dhul Fiqar]

Quote: from Ymir on 8:19 am on Sep. 21, 2002
I nominate Mazdak for chief of Secret Police.

Oh and I declare myself the betrayer of the revolution,

I'm the man that kills the previous members and then creates a 3rd world country into a superpower


No, because you've revealed your plans you will be the first guy to be "purged" from the new order ;)

--- G. Raven

[IHP]

i will be the one to lead a coup (ironic that i hate gen. pinochet and then i say that i want to lead a coup.....)

[Ian]

I feel a stroke coming on....

[uth1984]

I all fairness, peacebomb is giving out another way the socialism can come about, so he must be a comrade. However, we can never lose sight of the revolution. The parodox of capitalism is that when it looks strong it is really incredibly weak -- when there is the the greatest success on the stock exchange, there will the greatest misery off wall street. Capitalists are there own Gravediggers.

[msfiorillo]

The revolution will need to be organised from a foreign country, as the Cuban revolution was organised from Mexico. I can see the Internet playing a major role in the communication of Revolutionary forces around the world. In the Cuban revolution, the leaders were young men, late 20s, early 30s. This is because young people don't know what is supposed to be considered "impossible".
I live in Canada. I see the effects of the Capitalist system on our environment. We must retake the land. We must destroy the SUVs, the Starbucks, the McDonalds... Our brothers and sisters are taught to worship the dollar, those who don't are thought of as impious.
How do we fight against the economic, military, and media powers that the capitalist countries will use against us? I don't know... What do you think will need to happen?
Is it better to fight as a revolutionary in our world, or to escape the web of destruction?

[Peacebomb]

Thanks all for the comments. In capitalism everything is based on profit, everything else is worthless. Communism is, or should be, based on the people so the more diverse opinions there are the happier I am. To elaborate on my point, logically I dont believe there will be a revolution, especially if only based on economic aspects. But that means that we have to fight for it even more, even though it might never happen. For me winning is not everything, for me the struggle is everything. The ideal is to rebel against injustice. Who struggles, rebels, resisits is free and that`s all that counts. My personal idea remains the same....capitalism will destroy the world before the world destroys capitalism but that doesnt mean I wont fight. Remember, the real revolution has nothing to do with governments. The real revolution occurs inside each person who opens his eyes and fights injustice.

[jew4ever]

I agree, but not for the same reasons. I have been watching this board for over a year now and what it seems to be is that the people who really would help to bring a revolution are gone ( left or booted off i am not one to speculate) however this entire site has been over run by people claiming to be communust but truly having no idea of the responsibilities that title holds. to call ones self a communist especialy in america one must be involved in the movement. I must ask what have you people done for the revolution recently. Oh and on another note who the fuck is glamgirl she is useless

[Valkyrie]

I don't limit the struggle to just an economic basis, but much broader-ranging --- a social justice on all fronts. So, I don't think it's a question of how much (the largeness) one has done, but more whatever one can do no matter how seemingly insignificant. Nor do I think there is a "revolutionary vanguard", but rather a revolution inclusive of everyone -- including very young children, the elderly, the disabled. - the victor being justice.

[mentalbunny]

I don't have long before the internet turns off so i haven't read all the posts. I jsut think that perhaps the new kind of revolution is slower and more peaceful than previous kinds (eg the french revolution, which we all know was almost a complete failure as it resulted in napoleon).

the problem with this is that the revolution can slip- and countries can roll back into capitalism and conservatism.

[RGacky3]

my prediction is that when the peope see socialism is needed, they will try and implement it democratically, and most likely they government won't allow that so they will revolt the question is when will they see that it is needed.

[redstar2000]

It's HARD to grasp a big picture, historically speaking. We forget that it took the capitalist class about 4 CENTURIES to develop their own class consciousness to the point where they could grab and hold power (as late as 1933, the German capitalists voluntarily gave up their political power to the Nazis). And the capitalists suffered many setbacks along the way; it was not a smooth upward path from feudalism. Moreover, there were peaceful transitions and violent transitions, depending on the circumstances of each country.

So why should we expect it to be any different for the international working class. OUR struggle really dates from the Paris Commune of 1871; we have, as the saying has it, only just begun to fight.

I'm assuming Marx was right, of course...mostly on the basis that he's already been demonstrated to be right about so many other things. Let's face it: we live in an extremely reactionary period at the present time, especially in the U.S. That's the way history goes.

But class struggle goes on. (even here!) People still learn, albeit painfully slowly. Much as the ruling class celebrates Hegel and proclaims "the end of history", we communists can and should echo Galileo: IT STILL MOVES!

You may not, in fact almost certainly will not live to see "the revolution". Tough break! You can put your tail between your legs and crawl back to your master...or you can still do your best to bite the bastard's ass. Not a hard choice for me, but everyone has to make it for themselves.

[LeninCCCP]

We need a person in power to make a stand for communism

[Kez]

Mornin all,
The revolution is rougly 7 years away, (here in britain anyway), notice how militant the unions are now?
Notice how public opinion is becoming more and more left?
FACT: the younger people are now, the more liklier they are to vote labour (guardian poll), hence they will be more openminded to socialism.
FACT: the leftist part of the union movement is getting stronger then the reactionary forces there like that bastard ken.
FACT: People are tired with Private companies screwing things up (railtrack).

All we need now is:
# to keep this discontent brewing,
# Strenghten the unions (the labour movement)
# Strenghten the student unions
# Join the labour party however right wing you think it is, after all, it IS OUR PARTY!!!

and about "peaceful revolution or whatever", if some people had read books such as "capitalist democracy in Britain, they would see how the institutions in britian (parliament, education, media) are all kept in place to "keep the pressure from below [working class] down to a minimum"

Please keep active comrades, we have nothing to lose but our chains

Semeno