Palestinian Rights

[Reuben]

OK i have noticed that a number of people have expressed ambivelence with regard to theissue of palestinian rights. For me no socialist or anti-racist can be ambivalent. While we should attempt to approcha it objectively, neutrality on this issue is unnaceptable.

Israel from the outset has existed as ann ethnic based on military gain and racial supremacy. By the time Israeli independence was declared in 1948 (folowing the war of independence) 700,000 palestinains had been ethnically cleansed). This was done through a variety of methods the most horrific of which occurred at dier yassin where there was mass slaughter of unaarmed civilians.

Whathat this ethnic cleansing helped israel reach a political objective. SOuth Africa maintained the political supremacy of Whites through a votiing syustem which did not enfranchise black south Africans. Israel similarly wish to institute the political supremacy pf Israeli JEws, yet at the same time want the luuxry of calling themselves a democracy, and thus they have a forcefully imposed jewish majority which came about through the mass expulsions mentioned above and and maintianed by an ethnically biased immigration policy.


Micheal De Panama often argues that we cannot support one side or the other simply because 'they are both nationalist struggles'. Thisi is in my opinion an oversimplification ofthe issue. I do not support a palestinian state out of affiliation with ideological palestinian nationalism. I support a Palestinian state because a state which reflects the genuinely specific needs of the Palestinians =, in the run down refugee camps and in the diaspora, is IMO the only means by which their basic rights can be garunteed.

FUrthermore i feel it is a slightly futile insistence on constant class struggle. I wish to see class struggle as much as anyone. However it is obvious to anyone that the current national situation in Israel/Palestine cannot provide the Basis for unified class struggle. THe national question does need to be resolved as precondition to real class struggle.

In south Africa for example, it would be almost impossible to build class unity betweena white worker and his black domestic servant.

And thus I argue that it isnecessary that believers in Human right and socialists actively support the struggle of the Palestinains to achieve self determination and the right off return.

M De P please answer

[Guardia Bolivariano]

The palestinians have a right to have a homeland!

[new democracy]

disagree with you Reuben. lot of people in my country are angry about the international left. why exactly? THE INTERNATIONAL LEFT HAS ABANDONED ISRAELI WORKERS. the international left is so pro palestinian that it is almost support terrorist attacks on innocent civilians(not you Reuben, but a lot of them). the vast majority of the international left support arafat which is not directly involve terrorism, but he is not an innocent baby. and the vast majority of the international left supported arafat even before the oslo agreements. and before the oslo agreements arafat WAS involve directly in terrorism. when uri avneri(israeli leftist) met with arafat(before oslo agreements) what would someone that lose his love ones in a terrorist attack would say about that meeting? i don't like to say it, but when you said "we should support palestinians" you just said "we should abandoned israeli workers". what will a palestinian state will do? the same thing that zionism and israel are doing: separate palestinians workers from other workers, not only in israel but in the entire world.

[Iyana]

FREE PALESTINE !
On September 28th its the National ay of protest. No more U.S. - Israeli crimes of occupation. SUPPORT PALESTINIAN People's right to return; Israel's campaign of displacement has made Palestinians the largest refugee population in the world. Uphold united nations resolution 194 calling for the right to return!
STOP U.S. Aid to Israel; Between five to 12 billion dollars in annual U.S. dollars for education, health and other needed services! (15million dollars a day !)

I'm yet only a marxist fighting injustice !




(Edited by Iyana at 6:50 pm on Sep. 20, 2002)

[Blasphemy]

new democracy, uri avneri only represents a handful of extremeists in israel. it's hard for me to go to a rally supported by Gush Shalom because they are way more to the left than me...

[new democracy]

i know but don't tell me that people did not get angry when mayir vilner and other communists met with arafat(and at that time they had much more power).

[Blasphemy]

of course people get angry. i get a little angry when i hear Adam Keller and his "wise remarks". but these people don't represent anyone but themselves. they look at sharon as a devil, and at arafat as an angel. the gaps between reality and gush shalom are huge. vilner, avneri, keller and co. are a bunch of fanatics. but we need them now with the rise of nationalism and fascism in our country, which you probably have noticed.

[new democracy]

Quote: from Blasphemy on 9:01 pm on Sep. 20, 2002
vilner, avneri, keller and co. are a bunch of fanatics. but we need them now with the rise of nationalism and fascism in our country, which you probably have noticed.
it is not true. people like avneri are promoting nationalism in some way. it goes like this: avneri or other guy like him have a meeting with arafat=people get angry=more votes to right wingers. hadash(israeli communists) connections with arafat are something unforgivable(i am not a right winger, but it is unforgivable). and i am not a communist, and after looking at the ussr communism is not something that i will desire for.

[new democracy]

and a palestinian state will not improve the life of the palestinians. the regime will be corrupted, dictatorial, and it will be CAPITALISM. all of that under the leadership of arafat.

[Reuben]

what do you mean it will not improve life for the palestinains because it would be a capitalist state. Your going down a very dangerous and self-destructive road of equating every type of capitalist society as making life equally difficult. THat is innaccurate

[new democracy]

Quote: from Reuben on 11:32 pm on Sep. 20, 2002
what do you mean it will not improve life for the palestinains because it would be a capitalist state. Your going down a very dangerous and self-destructive road of equating every type of capitalist society as making life equally difficult. THat is innaccurate
capitalism does not always make life extremely difficult, but when it combined with arafat corruption it is a disaster.

[new democracy]

and we CANNOT support capitalism and capitalist leaders like arafat. arafat economic views are the smae as regan ones, and leftists factions inside the plo like PFLP(note: i don't support PFLP) have called arafat right winger.

(Edited by new democracy at 11:47 pm on Sep. 20, 2002)

[vox]

Jesus (to call on a diety worshiped by neither Jews nor Muslims), I hate this.

I tend to agree with ND on this one. If Palestinians win and begin a policy of ethnic revenge against Jews, would the so-called "left" then say that the Jews are being oppressed? I really don't know. I do know that this is one of the most divisive issues on the Left, though.

One thing to remember is that we can talk about "Israel" without talking about all Isaelis, simply because Israeil is a nation. It's the same as talking about the US wanting to attack Iraq--that is true, but it doesn't mean that a LOT of US citizens are against it. However, with Palestinians, we don't have that luxury, for they have no state, and I think that by this stage it should be clear to everyone that Arafat is NOT in control. (The destruction of his compoun, and the "moat" dug around him, is ironically indicative of this very thing!)

When I look at this conflict, I see many Isaelis dying, and many more Palestinians dying. Amnesty International has, for the first time, condemned the terrorist attacks against Israel, and that, I think, says something.

In all this death, however, I see no good. I see no side to support. I see no side which speaks for the working class.

Would I like to see peace in the Middle East? Yes. Of course.

Peace, though, is simply not-killing. It is not justice. Both sides are guilty of tremendous atrocities throughout the years (and both sides make very good points). But NEITHER side speaks for the worker.

In that, Michael De Panama is correct. Peace without socialism is good, yes, but it's only a stop-gap measure, for the class conflict remains.

I've said this before, and I'll say it now: it's too bad that both sides can't lose.

vox

[ArgueEverything]

I haven't really completey formulated a personal response to this issue, but I don't think the Palestinians would see much improvement in their lives with the establishment of a Palestinian state. Israel's brutality would likely be replaced by Palestinian brutality (we've seen plenty of examples of that in the past).

I'd like to see a joint jewish-palestinian working class movment to bring about peace. I know its difficult, but i think that's the only thing that can bring about a lasting peace.

[Cassius Clay]

Everyone must remember one thing here. It is the Palestinians who live under fascist occupation, who have to live under 23 hour curfew. It is the Palestinian leadership who acknowledged Isreal's right to exist yet it seems that Sharon and co do not acknowledge the Palestinian right to exist. American defense secretary Rumsfield (spell) actually thinks that the areas occupied in 1967 are not occupied land. Because and this is a quote 'There was a war and Isreal was defending itself'. Apart from the fact that Isreal started that war, it was not the Palestinians they were supposed to be fighting but the corrupt monarchy's and Nationalist Arabs.

Remember back 2 years to when this uprising began. It was just kid's throwing stones, the proper way to respond to this would of been letting the PLO (or let the IDF do it if your that paranoid) respond with fire hoses and battons. But no they called in the F-16's and Tanks, I'm sure everyone remembers the 12 year old boy that died and this was before any suicide bombings.

Also the whole reason the uprising was started (apart from the occupation) was because one ex defence minister of Isreal who had previously massacred 2000 Lebonese decided to visit a Moslem holy site. You may think that this is just stupid religious rubbish and you are probably right to a certain extent. But two points, one you do not put your hand into a lions mouth and second was Adolf Eichman allowed to go sightseeing in 1960?

Isreal has/is now responsible for the fact that there will not be a peace for atleast the next 20 years. Even as late as August 2001 the PLO still had the power/will to arrest people who did have blood on their hands, now the PLO has power restricted to a office and a bathroom. If Arafat or any PLO commander actually dared to tell his men to risk their lifes arresting a member of Hamas then they would quickly have their throat cut. Whereas a year ago the PLO blue police were still protecting Isreali diplomats from the mob.

Arafat may be corrupt, but he is not/nor ever was a dictator or a extremist. Hamas proved that they will talk peace when they actually announced a month's ceasfire and guess what they kept to it. And remember who originally set up Hamas, that's right Isreal. Unlike other Moslem nations Palestinian culture (and still is despite the radiclisation) is one of the most progressive throughout the Arab world.

Like Arafat, Hezbollah condemmed 9/11 before Isreal. Now America calls Hezbollah the terriorist, I wonder.

I remembering reading the above and it does make me wonder.

[new democracy]

cassius, what are you talking about? from 2,000 arafat has stopped arresting terrorists and he is encouraging terrorism.

(Edited by new democracy at 2:17 pm on Sep. 21, 2002)

[Blasphemy]

i don't know much about hadash's connections to arafat, but i do know that avneri hold very little power. he doesn't represent the left, only a very small fraction of it. unfortunately, right wingers find it convenient to look at him as a representative of the left because it gives it a bad name. but we both know that he's another fanatic, like keller and vilner, that doesn't hold the power to attract the masses or make a real change.

we all know that a palestinian state under the rule of arafat will be a disaster. gangs will rule it, take the money to their own pocket, and leave the people starving. right now, the sons of arafat's ministers are going to prestigious universities in the US and in britain, while the people starve to death. the plo has money, but it all goes to the leaders instead of to the people.

but if a guy like Noseiba, or even like Dachlan or Rajub takes over, things will be much more different there. arafat can't and doesn't want to change anything, but young leaders will carry out reforms. arafat is old and a little demented. rajub and dachlan are young and ambitious, and noseiba is old and ambitious. the people are beginning to understand where arafat is leading them - nowhere.

[new democracy]

i know that avneri don't represent the left. most of the left is in the labor party(that have nothing to do with workers and it's backing sharon facist war), and merezts(which just like the labor party, have nothing to do with workers).

[Reuben]

what about gush shalom they seem like a very good group.

ILl respond to some of the points raised tonight

[new democracy]

avneri is from gush shalom!

[Blasphemy]

Gush Shalom (http://www.gush-shalom.org/english/index.html) is an extreme left peace group. their intentions are good, but they have absolutely no touch with reality. they think that arafat is a peace-loving saint, and refuse to acknowledge that he supports the terrorist organizations. Uri Avneri is the head of the organization, and Adam Keller is their spokeperson. i don't know if vilner has any position in the organization.

the big peace movement in israel is peace now (http://www.peacenow.org.il/English.asp) that also has a member in the israeli knesset - Tzali Reshef. they are the ones who hold the big peace demonstrations and rallies in israel.

[new democracy]

but i will give credit to gush shalom for giving food and medicines to palestinians.

[new democracy]

Quote: from Blasphemy on 4:01 pm on Sep. 21, 2002
i don't know if vilner has any position in the organization.
vilner was a communist that has abandoned political life. but i think that his son, micha vilner, is a member in a of the israeli communist forum, a split from the communist party.

[new democracy]

Reuben, you say that a palestinian state is the only solution to the palestinian problem. you know what will happen if you replace the world palestinian with jewish in your solution? you will get ZIONISM.

[Conghaileach]

Not necessarily.

What is considered Zionism by many (the creation of Israel as a state by Jews and for Jews) could not transfer to the Palestinians because they are more diverse in many different ways than Israelis. For instance, 30% of Palestinians are Christian (if I recall correctly).

[Conghaileach]

There's an excellent article in the News section, titled "Palestine is still the Issue." It can be reached here (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=25&topic=335).

[new democracy]

Quote: from CiaranB on 1:45 pm on Sep. 25, 2002
Not necessarily.

What is considered Zionism by many (the creation of Israel as a state by Jews and for Jews) could not transfer to the Palestinians because they are more diverse in many different ways than Israelis. For instance, 30% of Palestinians are Christian (if I recall correctly).

that is a mistake. a lot of people say it because they don't realize that jews are both a nation and a religion. by jewish religion the jews will come back to israel only when the messiah will come. many religious jews(not all of them)see zionism as a contradiction to judaism because of that. though there is religious zionism, it is mainly a secular nationalist movement. there a lot religious laws in israel(not in a horrible way like iran, but there are a lot. though i oppose this laws, i give some credit for the fact that they are not apply on arabs.), but ehud barak, has implied that he will separate religion and the state and he is a zionist. though you do have some point, it is mostly incorrect.

[Conghaileach]

When will Barak spearate state and church?

And as for your concerns over the international left's rejection of Israeli workers, their homes came at the expense of the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, something most of them don't seem to give a fuck about.

[new democracy]

ehud barak is a former pm, he never make it because of the power of religious parties. and you support organizations like pflp that kill innocent civilians and seem to give a fuck. and many of the people here came after the creation of the state of israel(but i am still don't support israeli immigration laws). and CiaranB, you are a hypocrite. calling yourself socialist, but denouncing workers.

[Reuben]

In a way new democracy is right. Jews are,as he said a nation as well as a religion, and also recognize that theoretical zionism (simply the idea of a jewish state) as not entirely removed (or indeed absolutely less legitimate) than many other ethnic national liberation movements. Regartdding your point that it will simply be another form of zionism, I suppose i see the palestinain state asan interim step to a binational state, howvver a see a state which reflects the specific needs of the palestinians as a reasonable and necessary immediate solution to the material and human rights issus facing them.

ASs i said ideally i would like to see one binational state but i see that there is a need for some kind of set up which DOES in the immediate term deal with the very pressing needs of Palestinains.

Remember Cirian that many Israelies went there or were descended from those who went there as refugees. FOllowing the war, the remnants of Europes shattered community were stuck in Displaced Person's camps. Only Peru offered to take jews. Countries suchas Britain/America/Ireland must take some responsibility for this. You should think before you condemn all of the Israeli workers

[new democracy]

interesting point, i must say that many israeli civilians are refugees from the ussr. the ussr let some jews to immigrate to israel, and i understand those people. i mean, i wouldn't like to live in a "workers paradise". many toher jews came when the ussr fall(i understand them too, the economic situation in russia is not something pretty). my grandmother and grandfather from my father side lived in poland, escaped to the ussr when poland was conquered, and after the war came to israel. my grandfather from my mother side came from poland to israel in 1,924(but keep in mind that in this years there was an anti semite regime in poland), and my grandmother from my mother side came from poland after poland was conquered by nazis. and many other people came here came from ethiopia. ethiopia is not a paradise, politically and economicly. Reuben, your idea of a palestinian state and after that a binational state is an idea that was adopted by the plo in 1,974.

[Conghaileach]

from new democracy:
and CiaranB, you are a hypocrite. calling yourself socialist, but denouncing workers.

Workers can be fascists. I denounce fascists. I denounce Israelis because anyone who supports their supposedly democratic government is a Nazi.

[Blasphemy]

from CiaranB:
I denounce Israelis because anyone who supports their supposedly democratic government is a Nazi.

wow, that's an extremely unfair and stupid generalization. i think you're going a little too far here, buddy.

[new democracy]

did you read my last post? many of those people have become zionists becuase they came from areas where there is economic or political hardship. i am not supporting zionism or the facist war, but i understand some of the people that do support it. i mean, imagine that you loosed your love ones in a terroriest attack. would you or would you not support the war? seconed many people have denounced things like "jewish labor"(the idea of imploing only jews). i never saw you denounce terrorists that don't give a fuck when they kill innocent civilians? oh wait, you actually made an entire thread in websites about them and you gave a link also.
"I denounce Israelis because anyone who supports their supposedly democratic government is a Nazi".
and they call jews that oppose zionism a self hating jews.

(Edited by new democracy at 11:17 pm on Sep. 25, 2002)

[Blasphemy]

ciaranb, i can't expect you to understand why people are zionist. have your family been through the holocaust? people lost their entire families in the holocaust, because they had no independant state. now, the jews have their own nation where they can govern themselves, where they don't have to hide the fact that they're jewish.

in his book "a tale of love and darkness", israeli writer amos oz (a leftist) describes how his father was humiliated in germany in school by nazi bullies. he was stripped infront of the girls, who mocked his circumcision. the teachers stood and watched the whole thing, without saying a word. the bullies were not punished. if you read it yourself, you will understand. when i read it, as a jewish person, i could feel the humiliation. i could his the agony and fear.

throughout history, the jews suffered just because they are jews. you cannot understand it. then don't ever dare to call every zionist a nazi.

i am a proud zionist. i don't hide it, i don't think there is anything wrong with it. my family managed to escape europe and come to israel before the war, but believe me that they suffered from racism and antisemetism in romania. if they didn't come to israel, they probably would have been killed by the nazis. israel is a miracle to the jewish people. it is a haven for the jewish people, who suffered so much for no reason. because of stupidity and ignorance.

[new democracy]

i must say that some of zionism claims are rediculos. by zionism every non jew is anti semite. as amos oz said:"A state cannot be Jewish, just as a chair or a bus cannot be Jewish...The state is no more than a tool, a tool that is efficient or a tool that is defective, a tool that is suitable or a tool that is undesirable. And this tool must belong to all its citizens -- Jews, Moslems, Christians...The concept of a 'Jewish State' is nothing other than a snare." (Amos Oz, Israel's preeminent writer of fiction, in "A Laden Wagon and an Empty Wagon? Reflections on the Culture of Israel," Free Judaism, October 1997, p. 5 [Hebrew])". go to the website of new democracy(link in signature), and than go to world at war, they have some good articles about it. and this is the million thread about israeli palestinian conflict. malte should make one sticky thread about it and delete all others.

[Blasphemy]

well, in Panther in the Basement and A Tale of Love and Darkness, Amoz Oz justifies the existence of a jewish state through the story about his father. i will check the book from which you presented the quote.

[new democracy]

i saw this quote in some article from new democracy. and go to my thread "Israel/Palestine".

[Conghaileach]

Look, I'm sorry for what I said. It was rash and I was somewhat pissed off at the time.

Still, no-one has the right to subject any other person in the way that the Israelis treat Palestinians. The Israelis have been using Nazi tactics (it was discussed here some time ago - living space/lievensraum, undermscion/subhumans etc etc), and try to justify it by going "oh boohoo, we went through this ourselves so should be allowed to do it to another people".

And Blasphemy, my country has been under 800 years of military occupation by an imperialist force, the majority of who's nation are extremely racist against us. Between 1847 and 1852, over 2 million Irish were murdered by the British and over 1.5 million were forced to leave the country. I know that it's not as extreme what the Jewish people have had to suffer, but you dopn't have any exclusive ownership of fascist-inflicted suffering.

[new democracy]

israelis kill palestinians!? most of them never did that.

[Conghaileach]

There's a TV series called Unthinkable, and last night the show was based around the ideas of violence. A very odd fact I picked up is that more people die of car accidents in Israel than from Palestinian suicide bombers, gauged over the same period.

[Conghaileach]

from new democracy:
israelis kill palestinians!? most of them never did that.

Well, I was generalising. It's like me calling the Yanks a pack of bastards for the actions of the US military.

[Reuben]

yeah it is like calling yanks 'a pack of bastards'. Both phrases are simplistic generalisations which are politically disabling as well as offensive to comrades such as new democracy who are part of the ethnic groups you indict.

[Blasphemy]

Quote from CiaranB:

And Blasphemy, my country has been under 800 years of military occupation by an imperialist force, the majority of who's nation are extremely racist against us. Between 1847 and 1852, over 2 million Irish were murdered by the British and over 1.5 million were forced to leave the country. I know that it's not as extreme what the Jewish people have had to suffer, but you dopn't have any exclusive ownership of fascist-inflicted suffering.

i was not trying to justify israeli state-terrorism, which i strongly condemn, but rather trying to justify zionism. the difference between the persecution of jews in europe and the occupation under which the irish lived, is that the irish had a land that they had to free, the jews didn't have a land.