Nationalism of all stripes is wrong....

[JudeObscure84]

Why is there this disdane for the Nazis and thier monstrous nationalism, and not for black nationalism, which invokes similar methods? for example....


Black Panther Party (BPP), was a militant black political organization

was this another reactionary "right wing" organization?


The BPP affirmed the right of blacks to use violence to defend themselves and thus became an alternative to more moderate civil rights groups. The BPP combined elements of socialism and Black Nationalism, insisting that if businesses and the government did not provide for full employment, the community should take over the means of production.

you mean like national socialism?



The BPP also emphasized class unity,

they didnt advocate for the end of classes but stressed unity within the classes. much like the national socialists who rejected the ideas of class warfare and opted for national unity.

Now I know that this is being very broad and general, but at the same time, lets not forget that they never took power of any state as well. I mean thier white hatred and propaganda mirrors that of the Nazis jewish hatred, in how the white man controls the system, and becomes another code word for "international capitalist". I mean have you guys ever read the any Nation of Islam books?

[Redmau5]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 06:32 PM
I mean thier white hatred
They hardly hated whites. Yes there was some extreme elements but you'll get that with any organisation. That's like saying all feminists hate men when it's only a small minority.

Do some serious research before you make such ignorant statements.

[Black Dagger]

was this another reactionary "right wing" organization?


No, because they were a revolutionary 'left-wing' organisation.


you mean like national socialism?

No, they were not 'nationalists' in the sense you're trying to infer, they were highly critical of US society, culture, government, foreign policy and so forth. Not 'patriots' by any stretch.



they didnt advocate for the end of classes but stressed unity within the classes. much like the national socialists who rejected the ideas of class warfare and opted for national unity.

When they the BPP said 'class unity' they meant working class unity, not 'unity' with their opressors, nice try though.



Now I know that this is being very broad and general,

You couldn't be more 'broad and general', you clearly have no understanding of the history, orientation or goals of the BPP.


...but at the same time, lets not forget that they never took power of any state as well.

What does that have to do with anything?



I mean thier white hatred and propaganda mirrors that of the Nazis jewish hatred,

:rolleyes: The BPP worked with and along-side a whole host of non-black organisations, asian, latino/latina and white, they were anti-racist. The BPP recognised that racism was a by-product of capitalism, and thus it was capitalism that should be attacked, not white people.



in how the white man controls the system, and becomes another code word for "international capitalist".

Except they didn't ramble on about 'the white man', they talked about opressors, and understood that opressors can and do come in all 'colours'. In the US the most common opressor of ALL people, is the 'white capitalist', but the BPP did not focus on 'demonising' the white 'international capitalist' in their rhetoric.



I mean have you guys ever read the any Nation of Islam books?

The NOI and the BPP are completely different/unrelated organisations. The fact that you cannot distinguish between them demonstrates your complete ignorance of the BPP, its ideas and history. Then again, all militant black-organisations are the 'same' right? :rolleyes:

Next time make you actually know SOMETHING about a topic before you try to spin some sympathy for fascism or whatever authoritarian crap you've subjugated yourself to.

[JudeObscure84]

Tell that to the government of Robert Mugabe. Tell that to the propaganda of the nation of islam, before its "reformation".

[JudeObscure84]

The NOI and the BPP are completely different/unrelated organisations. The fact that you cannot distinguish between them demonstrates your complete ignorance of the BPP, its ideas and history. Then again, all militant black-organisations are the 'same' right?

well i am not distinctly talking about the BPP alone, but black nationalism in general. the extremist elements are highly critical.

[Colombia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 07:34 PM

The NOI and the BPP are completely different/unrelated organisations. The fact that you cannot distinguish between them demonstrates your complete ignorance of the BPP, its ideas and history. Then again, all militant black-organisations are the 'same' right?

well i am not distinctly talking about the BPP alone, but black nationalism in general. the extremist elements are highly critical.
Such a broad answer! How is black nationalism in any way racist again?

[JudeObscure84]

No, because they were a revolutionary 'left-wing' organisation

I was being sarcastic.


No, they were not 'nationalists' in the sense you're trying to infer, they were highly critical of US society, culture, government, foreign policy and so forth. Not 'patriots' by any stretch.

No one said they were american nationalists. black nationalists. white nationalists are also very critical of current US society,culture,government, foreign policy and so forth. so you dont know what kind of nationalism i am trying to infer.



When they the BPP said 'class unity' they meant working class unity, not 'unity' with their opressors, nice try though.

right, just like the nazis. you think they wanted unity with their "jewish" oppressors both marxist and capitalist?


You couldn't be more 'broad and general', you clearly have no understanding of the history, orientation or goals of the BPP.
well im not distinctly talking about the BPP in general.

:
rolleyes: The BPP worked with and along-side a whole host of non-black organisations, asian, latino/latina and white, they were anti-racist. The BPP recognised that racism was a by-product of capitalism, and thus it was capitalism that should be attacked, not white people.

well obviously this is where nazis and black nationalists would differ, because they believe that international capitalism an invention by the jooz seek to end thier national unity, like wise the marxists who have no sense of "true" unity or socialism. so yes in this essense they are not alike.


Except they didn't ramble on about 'the white man', they talked about opressors, and understood that opressors can and do come in all 'colours'. In the US the most common opressor of ALL people, is the 'white capitalist', but the BPP did not focus on 'demonising' the white 'international capitalist' in their rhetoric.
true. see above.


Next time make you actually know SOMETHING about a topic before you try to spin some sympathy for fascism or whatever authoritarian crap you've subjugated yourself to.
again you are being to precise, when i said i was being general. and i'm skeptical of all sorts of nationalist unity that pretends to bring social justice. it leads to extremism.

[Professor Moneybags]

The BPP recognised that racism was a by-product of capitalism

How did they come to that enlightened conclusion ?

[JudeObscure84]

Such a broad answer! How is black nationalism in any way racist again?

what a ridiculous answer! how is white nationalism in any way racist then? is it just by the means? get off it man.

tell it to the extremists:

United Nuwaubian Nation of Moors
Nation of Islam
Republic of New Africa
New Black Panther Party

[Intifada]

Black nationalism in general, is not racist.

Of course there are extremist elements, but they do not make up the majority of black nationalists.

[Black Dagger]

Tell that to the government of Robert Mugabe. Tell that to the propaganda of the nation of islam, before its "reformation".

As a reply to my original post, that's pathetic. You introduce the topic of 'black nationalism', then rant on making false assertions about the BPP and then decide to brush them along with the NOI and any other 'naughty' black group/person you can think, try debating.



I was being sarcastic.

You must be really bad at articulating 'sarcasm' then, because your statement was completely lacking in it, nice evasion though.



No one said they were american nationalists.

Well your weak inference was that the ideology of the BPP was 'national socialist', which historically means country/nation-state based (in this case the US) socialist, not 'national' in an any ethnic or cultural sense.



white nationalists are also very critical of current US society,culture,government, foreign policy and so forth. so you dont know what kind of nationalism i am trying to infer.

Except 'white nationalists', ie. Nazi's/Aryan Nation-hacks and so forth, are racist authoritarians, there is no similarity between the two. I know which kind of nationalism you were 'infering' because you stated, 'national socialism', and ive said repeatedly that 'black nationalism' and 'national socialism' are not related ideologies.



right, just like the nazis.

Wrong, because the nazi's were backed by the ruling class, and worked in 'unity' with them, they were being 'opressed' by no one.



you think they wanted unity with their "jewish" oppressors both marxist and capitalist?

That has nothing to do with class or 'class unity', that's racism.



well im not distinctly talking about the BPP in general.

You made several specific references to the BPP, i'm entitled to refute your assertions.



well obviously this is where nazis and black nationalists would differ,

They happen to 'differ' on practically everything, racism being the most important in this context.



because they believe that international capitalism an invention by the jooz seek to end thier national unity,

:rolleyes: 'International capitalism' developed over-time, with modern capitalism emerging first in the UK, run by your 'aryan brothers', the same people who run it today. Of course, why let the facts get in the way of some good ole' racism right?



like wise the marxists who have no sense of "true" unity or socialism.

:rolleyes: Yes, because 'true unity' involves excluding all jews and 'non-white' people, and 'true' socialism involves equality for a small minority and extermination for everyone else.


and i'm skeptical of all sorts of nationalist unity that pretends to bring social justice. it leads to extremism.

Not a fan of social justice? Wouldn't want the 'mud people' getting ahead of 'honest god-fearing' whitey ay?



what a ridiculous answer! how is white nationalism in any way racist then?

Because 'white nationalism' in practice strives for unfettered dominance of the 'white race' over all other 'non-white' peoples, whereas black nationalism strives (from a position of opression and inequality) for a position of equality with the opressors, the ideas do not begin on an equal 'playing field'.

From wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_nationalism

"Many modern white nationalists explicitly deny being racial supremacists, arguing that they merely wish for each group of people with shared heritage, including white people, to be allowed to promote and preserve its heritage, and do not desire to oppress or dominate other races as racial supremacists do. However, many of their critics charge that white nationalism is simply white supremacism in disguise. Some white supremacists call themselves white nationalists, since it is a more acceptable term.

Viewed in a more critical light, White nationalism can be seen as a reaction by whites who believe they are disenfranchised against the rise of liberal multicultural ideologies based around tolerance and "inclusiveness." While posturing as civil rights groups advocating the interests of their ethnic group, white nationalist groups frequently draw on the traditions of Nazism, fascism and the racist and nativist traditions of the American Ku Klux Klan and the British National Front cloaking themselves with symbols of patriotism, Christianity and Western civilization.

The term white Nationalist has been used by Neo-Nazi, Ku Klux Klan, Christian Identity and Aryan Nations groups"



Care to name some 'white nationalist' groups who aren't racist?



is it just by the means? get off it man.

The idea that a majority ethnic group, who enjoy unparalleled economic, political and social power, need to 'save' their 'racial identity', or are in any 'threatened' is completely irrational. It takes very little effort to see past any pretension of 'good faith' in the idea or actions of 'white nationalists', and uncover the ideas and actions of white racists.

[JudeObscure84]

As a reply to my original post, that's pathetic. You introduce the topic of 'black nationalism', then rant on making false assertions about the BPP and then decide to brush them along with the NOI and any other 'naughty' black group/person you can think, try debating.

i am debating. you're evating. the title of this thread is called nationalism of all stripes is bad. I was refering to not only the BPP but alot of other nationalist parties.


You must be really bad at articulating 'sarcasm' then, because your statement was completely lacking in it, nice evasion though.

Yes, sarcasm. seeing as how the double standards go for any extreme group that preaches violence as "right wing", yet extreme black nationalists are "left wing"?


Well your weak inference was that the ideology of the BPP was 'national socialist', which historically means country/nation-state based (in this case the US) socialist, not 'national' in an any ethnic or cultural sense.

no it doesnt. Hitlers national socialist was more due in race relation. the state of germany just happened to be the fatherland.


Except 'white nationalists', ie. Nazi's/Aryan Nation-hacks and so forth, are racist authoritarians, there is no similarity between the two. I know which kind of nationalism you were 'infering' because you stated, 'national socialism', and ive said repeatedly that 'black nationalism' and 'national socialism' are not related ideologies.

No, you dont know. I meant nationalistic in the sense of the aryan people as a nation. and thier home was germany. Are your telling me there is no similarity between the national socialist propaganda, and the nation of islam's core beliefs?


Wrong, because the nazi's were backed by the ruling class, and worked in 'unity' with them, they were being 'opressed' by no one.

wrong again. the nazis, in their own twisted minds, were oppressed by the jewish bankers and marxist politicians. They wanted class unity not to destroy classes, so from YOUR p.o.v. they were "backed" by the ruling class. You're thinking like marxist, think like a nationalist.


That has nothing to do with class or 'class unity', that's racism.
Ofcourse it is. Im not defending it. Im showing you thier own twisted interpretation of how they believed they were "oppressed". Similar to how Islamic Nationalists believe the same jewish/crusader conspiracy tales thats keeping the Muslim "oppressed".


You made several specific references to the BPP, i'm entitled to refute your assertions.
which i used as an example for some of the general terms defining extreme black national movments. all i am saying is that it generally leads to extremism.


They happen to 'differ' on practically everything, racism being the most important in this context.
ofcourse they would. they have different means of looking at the world. that isnt the point.


Yes, because 'true unity' involves excluding all jews and 'non-white' people, and 'true' socialism involves equality for a small minority and extermination for everyone else.
Yes, for the Nazi it does. Obviously if he rejects the notion of international communism as a jewish invention, and international finance as one too, both out there to exterminate the "supreme" german people. And once the collapse of capitalism took place in the great depression, rendering it a failed system, the "joos" tried thier same hand at international marxism. the only solution, or "salvation" is nationalistic socialism. Class unity, not class warfare, racial supremacy, not brotherhood of man. socialism not marxism. this was going to "save" germany and the aryan race.

If you're going to rant and rave against a crazed man, atleast understand what the crazed individual was ranting about.


Not a fan of social justice? Wouldn't want the 'mud people' getting ahead of 'honest god-fearing' whitey ay?

Just what is social justice? How can one define it? Was not Hitler also searching for "social justice"? Its an empty phrase. For one, I am for the international finance that the joos so cleverly came up with to invoke a brotherhood of man.


Because 'white nationalism' in practice strives for unfettered dominance of the 'white race' over all other 'non-white' peoples, whereas black nationalism strives (from a position of opression and inequality) for a position of equality with the opressors, the ideas do not begin on an equal 'playing field'.

Hold on there, chachi. Some black nationalists dont advocate for a position of equality. and I will be fair to say that a many of them do advocate justice. But nationalism will lead to hatred when the system doesnt pan out thier way. For some black nationalists, they think the white man simply stole thier thunder and want it back.



Care to name some 'white nationalist' groups who aren't racist?
you idiot. I meant that if the extreme groups out there are racist and you people say they're not, then what not to give the same notion to white nationalist groups. what is the difference between the nation of islam, the new BPP and stormfront. As for white nationalists, most if not all advocate for seperatism and even agree to give african americans thier own state.

[comrade_mufasa]

Your whole post is shit. You might want to read a book or 10. black nationalism is more about blacks not exepting white ideals then what one would think of when thinking of white nationalism which is "white people should be the only people". during the 60s it was commen for black men to use straitener on thier hair (and take it from me this shit burns so bad on your scalp) so that they would have strait hair and not thier natural african locks. they did this becouse they thought that if they had strait hair the would be excepted be whites, but they were never excepted. black nationalism worked to say that african locks are not a burden or something bad they are something to be proud of. this is just an example there is more to black nationalism then hair.


lets not forget that they never took power of any state as well.
Yet it was said by a number of U$ officals that during the hight of the BPP they were a signifigant threat to the U$ government.


in how the white man controls the system, and becomes another code word for "international capitalist".
You may hate to hear this but the white man does control the system.


right, just like the nazis. you think they wanted unity with their "jewish" oppressors both marxist and capitalist?
Thats why they worked with non-black leftest groups and progresive student groups, which were mostly middle class white students.


no it doesnt. Hitlers national socialist was more due in race relation. the state of germany just happened to be the fatherland.
It is not by luck that anti-semitism took such a grand scale in Germany. Martin Luther, the creater of the protestent refremation, hated Jews with a passion and becouse his new church started in Germany...I think you can get the rest.

JudeObscure84 you might want to read some books. NO, you need to read some books, alot of books, a TON of books, just go right now and ask to live in your local library for a few months. Please. And please watch this video here (http://demandmedia.net/metagen?vurl=rtsp://realmedia.freespeech.org/murder_fred_hampton.rm/murder_fred_hampton.rm)


Originally posted by Professor Moneybags
How did they come to that enlightened conclusion ?
Well the bourgeoisie uses rasim to keep the working class seperate so that class unity cant happen. The whole divide and conquer thing. But if you have a different idea I would love to hear it.

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 07:12 PM
The whole divide and conquer thing. But if you have a different idea I would love to hear it. Well the bourgeoisie uses rasim to keep the working class seperate so that class unity cant happen.
There is a hole in your argument : Capitalists don't see workers as "conquered" or "enslaved" (that's only how you commies see them), but as traders, so there is little point in dividing any group for any reason (other than the personal prejudices of a few racist/irrational individuals).

[JudeObscure84]

Your whole post is shit. You might want to read a book or 10.

so should you. here's one too: http://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/rps/


Yet it was said by a number of U$ officals that during the hight of the BPP they were a signifigant threat to the U$ government.

Most of the BPP and other black nationalists were murderous thugs. Alot of he chapter leaders were or are in jail. or i guess the man put him in there.


You may hate to hear this but the white man does control the system.


You mean use the system. but i guess using it can also mean using it to keep the black man down.


Thats why they worked with non-black leftest groups and progresive student groups, which were mostly middle class white students.

lol, i never said that they were exactly like the white nationalists. my point is that it can lead to extreme forms of radicalism if their first initial concerns are never met. Like the supposed New BPP. They can work with all the guilty middle class white kids they want it still doesnt change thier core beliefs.
Also this still didnt affect the relationship with Hitler and Tojo of Japan.


It is not by luck that anti-semitism took such a grand scale in Germany. Martin Luther, the creater of the protestent refremation, hated Jews with a passion and becouse his new church started in Germany...I think you can get the rest.

Correction, Martin Luther, at a very old ripe age, came to the conclusion that the only way for Jews to come to Christ was to show them the pain they made Christ suffer. but he never entered into the realm of extreme lunacy as to kill them off as a race. Luther was a aging angry coot, while Hitler was a raving psychopath.


JudeObscure84 you might want to read some books. NO, you need to read some books, alot of books, a TON of books, just go right now and ask to live in your local library for a few months. Please. And please watch this video here

Look, I know there are key differences within black nationalism and white supremesism. I hope you guys can see the point i am trying to make. The point is that while blacks are routinley obssessed with white supremacy, they themselves have concocted a response to it, in black supremacy. Yet, thiers differs in that thiers is not one of subjegation, but one of pride. Yet, while these can be some morally ideal starts it can lead to anger and violence if the situation seems hopeless.

...The basic aim of Black Muslim theology -- with its distinct Black supremacist account of the origins of white people -- was to counter white supremacy. Yet this preoccupation with white supremacy still allowed white people to serve as the principal point of reference. That which fundamentally motivates one still dictates the terms of what one thinks and does -- so the motivation of a Black supremacist doctrine reveals how obsessed one is with white supremacy....

- Cornel West, Malcolm X and Black Rage


Well the bourgeoisie uses rasim to keep the working class seperate so that class unity cant happen. The whole divide and conquer thing. But if you have a different idea I would love to hear it.
How odd that Hitler thought that international capitalism was actually a rouse for the jew to impose one world brotherness and deny white supremacy and national(class) unity.

[OleMarxco]

Originally posted by "Professor" Moneybags
There is a hole in your argument : Capitalists don't see workers as "conquered" or "enslaved" (that's only how you commies see them), but as traders, so there is little point in dividing any group for any reason (other than the personal prejudices of a few racist/irrational individuals).

Ahem. They DON'T? How can you know? Drop the apostrophes. Are you trying imply we're just a lunatic bunch of people who are insane and just IMAGINE that cappies force workers to slave for wages? NONSENSE! And seeing workers as TRADERS? Perhaps....as traders for wages with labor as payment! Except the Workers hold LITTLE bargains in the "deal"....So I can think many more reasons to divide a group if you are a burgeouise CEO.....fool, you think it is only a game to them?

They don't REALLY care about racism, they are not REALLY racist (KKK is purely racist what-so-ever, CEO's might be racists just because of necessity, spur-of-the-moment -- like opportunists -- which currently is, the opportunity of keepin' "them damn blacks down", in an everlasting moment), they are dedicadated only to protecting and filling their pockets, so they'll look at "dividing of groups" as a way to "split and rule", and take f.eg striking workers and try to divide them by race, not only because they are racist, but because it's an efficent use of a tool to keep them oppressed, so they'll be mindnumbingly more occupied with fighting each-other because of skin color, rather than focus on being united against more-demanding bosses! "Races", don't exist! It's BULLSHIT! It's a burgeouise contraption! Fuck dividing people into "races"! There's No war but class war! :lol:

[JudeObscure84]

Are you trying imply we're just a lunatic bunch of people who are insane and just IMAGINE that cappies force workers to slave for wages?

Yes.

[Eastside Revolt]

"Most of the BPP and other black nationalists were murderous thugs. Alot of he chapter leaders were or are in jail. or i guess the man put him in there."

The "man" certainly did put them there, just as the man gave them little other choice than to be murderous thugs. :lol: As if the police aren't :rolleyes: .


"lol, i never said that they were exactly like the white nationalists. my point is that it can lead to extreme forms of radicalism if their first initial concerns are never met. Like the supposed New BPP. They can work with all the guilty middle class white kids they want it still doesnt change thier core beliefs.
Also this still didnt affect the relationship with Hitler and Tojo of Japan."

First of all the NBPP isn't likely to work with middle class white kids.

Second of all with Hitler and Tojo, what the fuck are you talking about?

[JudeObscure84]

The "man" certainly did put them there, just as the man gave them little other choice than to be murderous thugs. As if the police aren't .


so you admit them to being murderous thugs? I see. So black people have no other choices than being murderous thugs. I see also how far that ideology carries, and all other leftist ones: into murderous thugs.


First of all the NBPP isn't likely to work with middle class white kids.

Well they certainly were able to work with Tom Metzger of the White Aryan Resistence.


Second of all with Hitler and Tojo, what the fuck are you talking about?

this was just a mild analogy at how nationalist movements will simply side with whoever to bring about thier ideals.

[tambourine_man]

i agree that "nationalism of all stripes is wrong."
even the nationalism of an oppressed minority is a fundamentally reactionary force antagonistic to the goals of communism.

don't think i'm a closet capitalist or racist though! i disagree with everything else that judeobscure84 has proposed.

also, i agree with olemarxo that racism and race are just social constructions of the capitalists, designed to divide the working class and subjugate the people.

[comrade_mufasa]

OleMarxo you said exactly what I was going to say.


so should you. here's one too: http://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/rps/
A book writen by a former slave who lived in the mountains of Jamica. I never said that thier are no racist blacks or black groups. The new BPP is racist and I dont seport them, nor like them.


Most of the BPP and other black nationalists were murderous thugs. Alot of he chapter leaders were or are in jail. or i guess the man put him in there.
How does this refut my point. The goverment was scread as hell of the BPP becouse they ment what they said, were in active movement towards
revoltion, and had large support from the masses; even from white people. The man did put them in jail. The goverment had to deal with them becouse they considered them a "signifigant threat to the U$ government". Yes some of them were former gang members or had done jail time before or during thier membership with the BPP. That does not reflect on thier ideals and principles.


You mean use the system. but i guess using it can also mean using it to keep the black man down.
Yes they do use the system, but if it is only white men that are using the system then they control it. No they dont use it to keep the black man down. They use it to keep the proletariat down if they be white, black, red, brown or yellow.


Correction, Martin Luther, at a very old ripe age, came to the conclusion that the only way for Jews to come to Christ was to show them the pain they made Christ suffer. but he never entered into the realm of extreme lunacy as to kill them off as a race. Luther was a aging angry coot, while Hitler was a raving psychopath.
But there was a lot of anit-semitism in Germany becouse of Luther. There was NAZI like political groups before Hitler that moved for German pride, independce, and a dislike of all non-pure Germans. This shows that the mass killings of Hilter had a stage set up before Hitler ever took power.


How odd that Hitler thought that international capitalism was actually a rouse for the jew to impose one world brotherness and deny white supremacy and national(class) unity.
National unity and class unity are two diffrent things. National unity still can carry the bagage of classes. ex: All monarcies support national unity, but in order for there to be a monarcy there must be a class system. Class unity would distroy the capitalist system.

Did you watch the video link. It is from the 1970 but gives a good insight to the ideals of the BPP from the mouths of some of the great leader in the party.

[JudeObscure84]

A book writen by a former slave who lived in the mountains of Jamica. I never said that thier are no racist blacks or black groups. The new BPP is racist and I dont seport them, nor like them.

good but thats what i am talking about. the New BPP had to turn extreme when they felt thier measures were never met.


How does this refut my point. The goverment was scread as hell of the BPP becouse they ment what they said, were in active movement towards
revoltion, and had large support from the masses; even from white people. The man did put them in jail. The goverment had to deal with them becouse they considered them a "signifigant threat to the U$ government". Yes some of them were former gang members or had done jail time before or during thier membership with the BPP. That does not reflect on thier ideals and principles

Many of them killed white cops. A white cop is the symbol, of white supremacy and the law. The Black Panther Party invoked something that was deemed as a violation of the constitution:revolution. They were constituted in the same ranks as the KKK, and Marxist radicals.


Yes they do use the system, but if it is only white men that are using the system then they control it. No they dont use it to keep the black man down. They use it to keep the proletariat down if they be white, black, red, brown or yellow.

Still use? or did? because can you name any other nation where independent blacks make a higher income. I'm sorry but when Oprah is one of the wealthiest women in America, and Condi Rice is the most powerful black woman in the world, that says something else to you. "That they're uncle toms."
And on the proletariat. the system set up in the States is not to promise everyone equality and wealth, but a chance to aquire wealth. The Civil Right movement gave cause for African Americans to have a chance in the system, and it worked.


But there was a lot of anit-semitism in Germany becouse of Luther. There was NAZI like political groups before Hitler that moved for German pride, independce, and a dislike of all non-pure Germans. This shows that the mass killings of Hilter had a stage set up before Hitler ever took power.

But Luther never asked to kill any jews. only burn thier houses and ransack them. :unsure: Loony, yes, but the anti-semitism was always a product of a shoddy interepretation of scripture and percieved jewish arrogance. But dont think that Germans are masters at anti-semitism any more than thier ideological cousins the Arabs. Who I may add did more towards the enslavement of black than anglo-saxons.


National unity and class unity are two diffrent things. National unity still can carry the bagage of classes. ex: All monarcies support national unity, but in order for there to be a monarcy there must be a class system. Class unity would distroy the capitalist system.

Yeah, to a marxist, they're totally different. to a nationalist the unity is within the classes. A Nazi disregards the class warefare that the marxists imposed in order to keep the nation together. the fascists stated that where they differed with marx was on the issue of class struggle, because it wasnt an issue of classes but one of nations. a marxist thinks internationally and that all classes will be rendered useless under communism, a nationalist thinks that all classes will be rendered useless under socialism.

[comrade_mufasa]

good but thats what i am talking about. the New BPP had to turn extreme when they felt thier measures were never met.
The new BPP was always extreme. The leader, I forget his name, was racist his whole life. The point is that you made it out to be that all black nationalist groups are racist. That is not true. Only a select few are. There case closed. You can put your shotgun away and turn on BET :lol:


Many of them killed white cops. A white cop is the symbol, of white supremacy and the law. The Black Panther Party invoked something that was deemed as a violation of the constitution:revolution. They were constituted in the same ranks as the KKK, and Marxist radicals.
A dead cop is a dead cop. White, black, green, or clear. no tears from my eyes. And no the BPP were not constituted the same as the KKK becouse many southern cops were KKK that supported the U$ goverment. The BPP was a marxist radical group. Did you look at that link I gave you. It would clear up a lot of points for you.


Still use? or did? because can you name any other nation where independent blacks make a higher income. I'm sorry but when Oprah is one of the wealthiest women in America, and Condi Rice is the most powerful black woman in the world, that says something else to you. "That they're uncle toms."
Those people are not the rule they are the exeption. They are such a small precentage it doesnt count. Fuck condi rice. How can any black person study the russian languge instead of an African one. That is what black nationalism is all about. She should have studied an African languge to help keep it alive befor it is lost like so many have been.


And on the proletariat. the system set up in the States is not to promise everyone equality and wealth, but a chance to aquire wealth. The Civil Right movement gave cause for African Americans to have a chance in the system, and it worked.
To use a casino analogy. The Amercian goverment is the house and blackjack is the system. They system may give you a chance, but the house always wins. Unless there is a revolution or for this analogy, an Oceans Eleven. The civil rights movment had nothing to do with economics. It had to do with basic human rights. That is kind of obvious. Blacks are allowed to sit in the front of the bus now, but that bus ride is on the way to a bull shit pay job.


But Luther never asked to kill any jews. only burn thier houses and ransack them. Loony, yes, but the anti-semitism was always a product of a shoddy interepretation of scripture and percieved jewish arrogance. But dont think that Germans are masters at anti-semitism any more than thier ideological cousins the Arabs. Who I may add did more towards the enslavement of black than anglo-saxons.
Luther just planted the seed. The NAZIs cultivated a large "Venus jew trap" out of that seed. The Arabs did do more towards the enslavement of black, but it was not becouse they were black. It was becouse it made money. They would sell anyone into slavery. Blacks, Jews, other Arabs, captured soldiers, dept slaves, and many other people. If the slave traders from the Americas had found a society parallel to tribal Africans but they were white and not black do you think they would have made them slaves. I think it more likly they would see them as a long lost group of white salior that had been thier for thousands of years and had returned to a more primitive society. Like many white explorers did in the Kush region of Africa when they discovered the large stone walls of an lost African "castle".


Yeah, to a marxist, they're totally different. to a nationalist the unity is within the classes. A Nazi disregards the class warefare that the marxists imposed in order to keep the nation together. the fascists stated that where they differed with marx was on the issue of class struggle, because it wasnt an issue of classes but one of nations. a marxist thinks internationally and that all classes will be rendered useless under communism, a nationalist thinks that all classes will be rendered useless under socialism.
First, NAZIs are far from socialist dispit thier name. The NAZI party was supported by the ruling class and did nothing for the working class. All most all top ranking NAZI officals came from bourgeoisie families. They may disregard classes but since they dont remove capitalism, the capitalist still use class oppresion.

[JudeObscure84]

The new BPP was always extreme. The leader, I forget his name, was racist his whole life. The point is that you made it out to be that all black nationalist groups are racist. That is not true. Only a select few are. There case closed. You can put your shotgun away and turn on BET

It was always extreme because the seeds were sown, just like your martin luther analogy. But this is what i am talking about, the extreme factions that grow from natonalism in general. Oh and the select few seems to be growing.


dead cop is a dead cop. White, black, green, or clear. no tears from my eyes. And no the BPP were not constituted the same as the KKK becouse many southern cops were KKK that supported the U$ goverment. The BPP was a marxist radical group. Did you look at that link I gave you. It would clear up a lot of points for you.

I take it you're of the CopKiller Ice Tea persuasion, homie. Also, thats the stupidest contrast I have ever heard. It shows how much you know of the KKK. The Southern Cops [I]hated the Federal government and thought it was run by a bunch of commies. Southerners are for states rights, not federalism. Extreme right wingers and fascist militias like the KKK fought with the FBI just as much as the BPP. Timothy Mcviegh blew up a federal building and was disgusted with the federal government. The book that was found on him The Turner Diaries, talks about guerilla warfare against the US govt.


Those people are not the rule they are the exeption. They are such a small precentage it doesnt count. Fuck condi rice. How can any black person study the russian languge instead of an African one. That is what black nationalism is all about. She should have studied an African languge to help keep it alive befor it is lost like so many have been.
Oh so every black man who has ever made a name for himself or atleast made it into the middle class is the exception to the rule? And so a black person must only major in something black? Wow, you guys think so collectively that the individual is just a cog to your particular culture.


To use a casino analogy. The Amercian goverment is the house and blackjack is the system. They system may give you a chance, but the house always wins. Unless there is a revolution or for this analogy, an Oceans Eleven. The civil rights movment had nothing to do with economics. It had to do with basic human rights. That is kind of obvious. Blacks are allowed to sit in the front of the bus now, but that bus ride is on the way to a bull shit pay job. Look I admit that blacks have been disenfranchised, but why opt for socialist procedures to get out of a capitalist system? The socialist one cant compete, thats why you guys even think about revolution.Why not beat them at thier own game? One black business man can create more black businesses and so on. How else do you explain the rise of Indian Americans and Asian Americans? The Asian american community is already surpassing the Anglo community in income for the middle class. Next its Hispanic immigrants which are already surpassing African Americans in the 20 years of thier rise in the US? Yes, people who cross the border with hardly any money in thier pockets are surpassing the African American community.


Luther just planted the seed. The NAZIs cultivated a large "Venus jew trap" out of that seed. The Arabs did do more towards the enslavement of black, but it was not becouse they were black. It was becouse it made money.
Oh gee, that makes it all better. The Arabs were selling your people for money. Phew, for a second there I thought they were actually doing something wrong. Non-whites can do no harm. Also if you havent noticed the semitic race is considered a white sub-race.


If the slave traders from the Americas had found a society parallel to tribal Africans but they were white and not black do you think they would have made them slaves. I think it more likly they would see them as a long lost group of white salior that had been thier for thousands of years and had returned to a more primitive society. Like many white explorers did in the Kush region of Africa when they discovered the large stone walls of an lost African "castle".
Well then why did the Anglos find the Irish population as a degenerate race that had no relation to actual whiteness? Do you know where the word slave came from? It came from the trading of the Slavics. This is why Hitler chose to invade Poland and Eastern Europe, because in the past they were Germany's slaves.
The Arabs were the real enemies of Africa, because they piliged your towns, killed your civilizations and converted half of Africa to Islam. And from there they sold your people into slavery for money. Arabs to this day consider themselves to be the pure Islamic people. I have arab friends and you should hear them talk about non-arab muslims.


First, NAZIs are far from socialist dispit thier name. The NAZI party was supported by the ruling class and did nothing for the working class. All most all top ranking NAZI officals came from bourgeoisie families. They may disregard classes but since they dont remove capitalism, the capitalist still use class oppresion.
No the Nazis beleived themselves to be the saviors of socialism, away from jewish hands. In your Marxist p.o.v he wasnt a socialist because you look at from a marxian perspective. He was against that. To you he did nothing for the working class. And to you they were from " bourgeoisie" families. And for them to not remove capitalism is absurd, they killed finance because they thought it was a jewish invention. You should read the chapter in Mein Kampf that Hitler devotes to trade unions. So for the last time he was a socialist not a marxist. The difference in national socialism, the capitalism they allow does not profit off the nation, but the nation profits off of capitalism. the capital does not go against the national interest.

[Professor Moneybags]

Ahem. They DON'T? How can you know? Drop the apostrophes. Are you trying imply we're just a lunatic bunch of people who are insane and just IMAGINE that cappies force workers to slave for wages?

If I was to say "yes", it wouldn't be for the want of empirical evidence.


NONSENSE! And seeing workers as TRADERS? Perhaps....as traders for wages with labor as payment!

Yes, that is the definition of a trader, someone who gives value for value.


Except the Workers hold LITTLE bargains in the "deal"

The size of the trade is irrelevent.

<snip the mouth-foaming>