European constitution

[ErikuSz -sXe-]

An interesting discussion on the Dutch department of RevLeft is about the upcomming referendum on the European constitution.

I found this on the Dutch Indymedia page, this really suprised me:


Toni Negri shouldn't be calling for a yes vote in EU constitution referendum
by Salvatore Cannavo

This is an edited translation of a reply by the deputy editor of Liberazione, the daily paper of Italy’s Rifondazione Comunista, to Toni Negri, the anti-capitalist writer. Negri said in the French newspaper Libération that French people should vote yes to the European Constitution in the referendum on 29 May.


Tony Negri has reached the wrong political conclusion by applying the analysis of Empire, laid out in a book he co-wrote in 2001. This analysis is certainly attractive, but this shows its inadequacies and limits.

Negri’s reasoning can seem pragmatic and concrete. That's why it has been praised by the French intelligentsia, who fear a no vote in the referendum. Negri says he is a “realistic revolutionary”. This realism is dictated by his determination to prevent the rejection of the European Constitution. This rejection, he believes, would allow the interests of Empire to win.

Empire, for Negri, is the new globalised, capitalistic society. He thinks of Europe as being a brake on the ideology of economic unilateralism which is capitalist, conservative and reactionary. So Europe can become a counterweight against US unilateralism.

The brake must not be that of what Negri calls “the shitty nation state that is destined to disappear”. Instead, Europe is the political space in which the state can disappear, despite the fact that the constitution is neo-liberal and cannot be an alternative model for society.

“This isn’t the point,” says Negri, because the constitution is a “passage” towards a supranational state. If France defeats the constitution, says Negri, the whole edifice will collapse, leaving the nation state as the only counterweight to Empire. If the yes campaign wins, we have a chance to compare two models—the European and the American.

Undifferentiated
The no voter is a conservative. The yes voter is “realistically revolutionary”. A yes will strengthen the drive for Europe to become a political, economic and military power. If that is so, Negri’s analysis of Empire has problems. This states that the planet is governed by multinational networks of power that transcend nation states.

Opposition to it cannot be based on states, but by an “exodus” of the multitude of people who are held down by this power. The world is criss-crossed by a thick network of links, but this is only one part of reality. The war on Iraq demonstrated the limits of claiming there is an undifferentiated Empire. The US fell back on its traditional instruments of imperalist rule.

The war split Europe, especially the French-German alliance. This could not be explained by Empire. So Negri argued that the US had performed a U-turn and had executed a “coup” against Empire in order to push its particular interests.

Negri faces contradicting himself again. Europe should have been a component of the problem, but now it is a brake on Empire. Empire becomes the US again, downplaying the capitalist nature of the European Union. What this doesn’t take account of is that approval of the constitution would indeed be a counterweight to US power—but only because it would boost the European neo-liberal project.

This ends up mirroring something that was an option available to the workers’ movement of the 20th century, and which the movement often fell for.

This ideology leads you to support the most progressive element of capitalism. Then you realise that the workers’ movement has been sacrificed to the interests of the strongest capitalist player.

This is what is at stake in Europe today. A victory for European capitalism is not better than a victory for US capitalism. It is the anti-capitalist and anti-war movements that have created the supranational networks that we need to build up.

This workers’ movement will imagine an alternative to both British and US models, without having to look to nationalism. The victory of the no campaign in France would open up the possibility of driving forward a process of solidarity.

Negri doesn’t like the word socialism, so let’s put that to one side. But don’t make us out to be conservatives, because he is the conservative.

[The Feral Underclass]

This is the same "realistic rationale" which reformists and Trotskyites batter home to justify participation in bourgeois politics.

There is never a third analysis. It's either one way or the other for them. The opinion being that we have to play the bourgeois game in order to advance marginal concessions that may help us in the future. There is no other way.

What is happening with class struggle in the 21st Century!?

Quite frankly, what Negri seems to be missing is the overall reality of global capitalism: It's all the same. Whether it’s US capitalism or European capitalism, the difference in location or in presentation are merely superficial. When you get to the crux of it, there agenda's are the same. The European constitution is a no-brainer in terms of change or challange. It's the ruling class' carte blanche for consolidating power.

Negri implies that the French and German split with America was some moral call to reject war and American imperialism. It was not! France had economic ties with Saddam and the occupation in Iraq has simply upset the balance of power. Schroeder and Chirac would have gone to war if it had suited them.

The real message that Negri should be concentrating on publicising is that workers should resist both states. Be it an individual nation state or a Federated European state, and that fighting the ruling class is the only way to stand up to US imperialism.

Negri uses the term "realistic revolutionary" which has lost all historical meaning. He has no intention of directing that "realistic" revolutionaryism towards actually fighting bourgeois power structures of domination. Instead the realism of class struggle now has nothing to do with fighting capitalism but with accepting concessions.

The great Situationist phrase: "Be Realistic: Demand the Impossible!" has now been replaced with "Be Realistic: Demand compromise!"

[RedAnarchist]

I dislike the idea of a European Constiution. Whilst i would like to see unity amongst all nations, at least in Europe, this unity cannot happen whilst the capitalist system is still in place. This is beacuse all the wealth and resources of the entire EU pooled together will create a hugely powerful, capitalist state, which is certainly not what we need right now, what with America and the ascent of China.

[OleMarxco]

Exactly. EU is nothing but an administratic structure consisting of an thin layer with policians hiding a worm-hole of myriading capitalists :rolleyes:

[ErikuSz -sXe-]

Negri uses the term "realistic revolutionary" which has lost all historical meaning. He has no intention of directing that "realistic" revolutionaryism towards actually fighting bourgeois power structures of domination. Instead the realism of class struggle now has nothing to do with fighting capitalism but with accepting concessions.

I agree. More & more communists and anarchists seem to adopt these kind of strategies nowadays; 'let them, they will destroy each other!'
Unfortunetley, thats not how it works.

I think this is a very dangerous strategy that is based only on one thing: war.
War between the US and the EU. What Negri just does not seem to understand is that the bourgeois is not going to fight that war. The proletariat is.

So in the end... we lose, cause the proletariat lose.

'The liberation of the proletariat, can only be the work of the proletariat itself.'
-Marx.

I agree with Marx. It is not our goal to create a superstate (or help the bourgeoisie with it) in order to destroy another. It is our goal to free the oppressed in both states.

I don't know why but somehow Negri reminds me of Kautsky somehow.

[bolshevik butcher]

It's better europe than america.

[DaCuBaN]

It's better europe than america.

Spoken like a true "Brit"... It's almost like it's one or the other, if you're on this island.

In truth, it's better that we try our damndest(sp?) to undermine the machinery of government that enslaves us all; whether we're based in the UK, France, Germany, USA, Canada or indeed any other industrialised nation is of little consequence to the class conscious. It's Us and Them; those with and those without - one simple divide to be conquered.

A European constitution is, as has been said, simply another layer of beurocracy to obfuscate the fact that we don't need rulers in the first place. The US is a prime example of such an environment - how changeable is the political environment there? Not very...

That's all aside from my point though - unless Norway join the EU, we've got a serious problem with cartography and the EU.... :lol:

[bolshevik butcher]

haha, noticed that when i was in holland, in economic terms you ahve ot be in one camp really.

[ErikuSz -sXe-]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 20 2005, 02:12 PM
haha, noticed that when i was in holland, in economic terms you ahve ot be in one camp really.
In holland? or in the coffeeshop? :rolleyes:

[h&s]

There is no excuse to vote yes in the EU constitution. The constitution is a document consolidating more and power power in Brussels (man, by the way I'm talking i should be in UKIP!). It is nothing to do with united peoples of Europe - anything but that. The EU stands to unite the EU nations under the same right-wing policies. If one government 'lapses' and does something remotly good (like the UK government paying the Rover workers for a week) the EU will be nice and helpful and stop them from doing so.
The free-market of the EU just plays workers against each other in competition for jobs in foot-loose industry, attacking solidarity.
I'd vore yes for a united Europe, but no for anything to do with the EU.

[El_Revolucionario]

I would probably vote yes. I don't live in Europe so I don't know if voting yes would be a major problem but I think Europe needs to be united against the US empire.

[fernando]

Europe against the US? Dont make me laugh, they play the same game. So we got the US ripping the world off or Europe...dont see any difference there!. I'd rather see the imperialists nations in a state of instability so the 'revolution' can go on in the Third World.

[ErikuSz -sXe-]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 04:31 PM
I would probably vote yes. I don't live in Europe so I don't know if voting yes would be a major problem but I think Europe needs to be united against the US empire.
Did you actually READ a post in this topic? :o

[Che1990]

I'm against personally. I think it opens up a whole new gateway to racism and exploitation of workers. Having said that, what about a communist Europe?!?!?!?!?! What about a communist world?!?!?!?!?! *sigh* we can dream......

[ErikuSz -sXe-]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 06:42 PM
I'm against personally. I think it opens up a whole new gateway to racism and exploitation of workers. Having said that, what about a communist Europe?!?!?!?!?! What about a communist world?!?!?!?!?! *sigh* we can dream......
or act! :ph34r:

[Che1990]

That is a very good point. Let's act now! Hold demonstrations, protest, exterminate the rich/poor divide, bring down the bourgeoise, kill capitalism once and for all! VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!!!

[viva le revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 07:11 PM
That is a very good point. Let's act now! Hold demonstrations, protest, exterminate the rich/poor divide, bring down the bourgeoise, kill capitalism once and for all! VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!!!
That's the spirit! i'm with you comrade! Let's tear that mother down!
VIVA LA SOCIALISM!

[Che1990]

FIGHT THE POWER COMRADES!!!!! Together we can rid this crazy world of the one thing that is destroying it. Together we can fight the corrupting power. Together, we can bring down capitalism. We must kill hundreds to save millions. We will lose men along the way, but it is a small sacrifice we will have to make on our journey to create a fairer world. Each and every one of us has the spirit in them, the power to stand up for the cause, to fight for our beliefs, to overthrow the oppressors that are holding this world down. Talking is over comrades, action is on.

[DaCuBaN]

Why oh why am I thinking "Monty Python - Life of Brian" ? :rolleyes: :lol:

[ErikuSz -sXe-]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 03:18 PM
Why oh why am I thinking "Monty Python - Life of Brian" ? :rolleyes: :lol:
c'mon... little pep-talk won't hurt... :P

[Che1990]

Can't do any harm! :P

I'm trying to be encouraging! We should all work together to achieve our goals.

:P :D :P

[bolshevik butcher]

Yeh, but please stop making stupid wide reaching, genral statements that mean nothing in reality.

[Che1990]

I'll try! In the future I'll plan what I say first before I spout mindless crap all over the forums. :P

[patria grande]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 04:31 PM
I think Europe needs to be united against the US empire.
EU is the same as the U.S. They always exploited the third world. Don´t forget the EU backed the U.S against Cuba at the Human Rights Commission of the UN, but said nothing about U.S abuses at Guantánamo Naval Base. :angry:

About EU Constitution? No
Good for Corporations
Bad for the peoples.

[redstarshining]

It's not like we have a say on that anyway, most of us at least :(
According to the latest survey 53% of the french will vote with NON however so there's still hope.

[fernando]

I watched this thing on the news about the constitution, the constitution give the European Union the right to start a military action even if the US and the UN arent doing a thing, thin theory this would mean the EU could intervene in bad situation if the US and UN are unable to, in practise it would mean that the EU can once again return to its true imperialist nature and can become a better competitor to the US when it comes to the exploitation of the Third World

[Mahdavikia]

France says "NON" against the European constitution!

Currently (at 11:00 pm), the score is about 55% for No.

[ErikuSz -sXe-]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 08:48 PM
France says "NON" against the European constitution!

Currently (at 11:00 pm), the score is about 55% for No.
Just heard it.
Great news! :)

[kurt]

For a while there on BBC, they were showing 56% saying no, and 45% saying yes.. :huh: :huh:

[gonzo]

They really said no and i´m so fucking happy :D
´cause it were the people who were asked and not some Parlamentarians (like here in Germany, hasn´t democracy sth to do WITH the people?^^).
This whole Constitution didn´t have anything to do with the often promised "unity of Europe". A "Yes" means to say yes to globalisation, liberalism, arming up and capitalism!

I have some stats of the french vote from german Indymedia:
-54,87% said NO. 69,74% took part in the vote
-63% of the citizens who support the "parlamentarian left side" (PS) said
NO
-98% of the PCF-Voters (commies) say NO, like the troitskis, CNT, ATTAC, Pacifists...
-no numbers of the nationalistic side only said that they played a "small role" (well, indymedia is a left side portal^^) (there are all the numbers on IPSOS (http://www.ipsos.fr/CanalIpsos/poll/8074.asp), but i can´t speak or read french so it would be nice if someone could do that)

and more:
-79% of the Workers said NO
-67% of the "Angestellten" (i don´t know the english term, sorry)
-71% of the unemployed
-60% of the people with an income under 1000 Euro und 37% of the People with an income of more than 37% Euro said NO
(Source IPSOS (http://www.ipsos.fr/CanalIpsos/poll/8074.asp)/Indymedia (http://de.indymedia.org/2005/05/118352.shtml))

[Funky Monk]

To be fair, what does this show? Not a hude deal. It merely represents that the no campaign did better with its propaganda. How many people do you think actually read it in its entirety? How many people would want to? This result is more about preconceptions, inherent attitude and propaganda that any real substance.

[bolshevik butcher]

Just like to say i have changed my stance after i read a bit of it that said members must have a free market economy and basically that europe had to be thatcherite.

[ErikuSz -sXe-]

Originally posted by Funky [email protected] 30 2005, 02:48 PM
To be fair, what does this show? Not a hude deal. It merely represents that the no campaign did better with its propaganda. How many people do you think actually read it in its entirety? How many people would want to? This result is more about preconceptions, inherent attitude and propaganda that any real substance.
I disagree, I think it shows that the Europeans don't have any faith in European politicians and the constitutions they make. If you think the people voted NON just because their propaganda was stonger, I think you are seriously underestimating them!

[bolshevik butcher]

It was a victory for the left. Don't dish it, this wasn't like in the uk where it would be europ sceptics like kilroy against the main parties, this was thatcherites against the left.

[fernando]

Originally posted by Funky [email protected] 30 2005, 02:48 PM
To be fair, what does this show? Not a hude deal. It merely represents that the no campaign did better with its propaganda. How many people do you think actually read it in its entirety? How many people would want to? This result is more about preconceptions, inherent attitude and propaganda that any real substance.
Funny since the people who ran the No campaign in Holland got a couple of hunderd thousand Euros while the government spend about 3.5 million euros on their Yes campaign propaganda, sending out more flyers to the people to vote yes, telling us WWIII will come if we dont vote yes and that the world will laugh at us if we dont obey them...

Apparently 60% or even a larger part of the Dutch population are voting No on wednesday if we are to believe the speculations from right now

[ErikuSz -sXe-]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 08:28 PM
Apparently 60% or even a larger part of the Dutch population are voting No on wednesday if we are to believe the speculations from right now
Yes we are going to vote today.
Of course I'm voting: NEE! (no) and it looks good!

[gonzo]

Here in Germany there was nearly NOTHING in the media about the constitution in any way.
I don´t know the situation in France and the problem is you don´t know why they sad no. Because of nationalistic interests? Fear of loosing work? To say no to Capitalism?

Different question:
If here in Germany the people would have voted and they´d say no, what would have been the reaction of the world?

[Funky Monk]

Originally posted by fernando+May 30 2005, 09:28 PM--> (fernando @ May 30 2005, 09:28 PM)
Funky [email protected] 30 2005, 02:48 PM
To be fair, what does this show? Not a hude deal. It merely represents that the no campaign did better with its propaganda. How many people do you think actually read it in its entirety? How many people would want to? This result is more about preconceptions, inherent attitude and propaganda that any real substance.
Funny since the people who ran the No campaign in Holland got a couple of hunderd thousand Euros while the government spend about 3.5 million euros on their Yes campaign propaganda, sending out more flyers to the people to vote yes, telling us WWIII will come if we dont vote yes and that the world will laugh at us if we dont obey them...

Apparently 60% or even a larger part of the Dutch population are voting No on wednesday if we are to believe the speculations from right now [/b]
And what about airplay for the issues? I was looking at a load of foreign tv on the issue and there was very little debate, just two parties arguing very basic concepts. It all boiled down to
Yes- be part of the future of Europe
No- it'll be bad for you


the point im trying to make is that barely anyone knows anything about the constitution people are only guided by what they hear and whoever is more succesful in getting their message across is likely to be succesful on the vote

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 01:32 PM
I dislike the idea of a European Constiution. Whilst i would like to see unity amongst all nations, at least in Europe, this unity cannot happen whilst the capitalist system is still in place. This is beacuse all the wealth and resources of the entire EU pooled together will create a hugely powerful, capitalist state, which is certainly not what we need right now, what with America and the ascent of China.
Well that would be all very well, if that was the idea of the European constitution, however as its not...

I however don't give a rats ass.

[fernando]

Originally posted by Funky Monk+May 31 2005, 01:17 PM--> (Funky Monk @ May 31 2005, 01:17 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 09:28 PM

Funky [email protected] 30 2005, 02:48 PM
To be fair, what does this show? Not a hude deal. It merely represents that the no campaign did better with its propaganda. How many people do you think actually read it in its entirety? How many people would want to? This result is more about preconceptions, inherent attitude and propaganda that any real substance.
Funny since the people who ran the No campaign in Holland got a couple of hunderd thousand Euros while the government spend about 3.5 million euros on their Yes campaign propaganda, sending out more flyers to the people to vote yes, telling us WWIII will come if we dont vote yes and that the world will laugh at us if we dont obey them...

Apparently 60% or even a larger part of the Dutch population are voting No on wednesday if we are to believe the speculations from right now
And what about airplay for the issues? I was looking at a load of foreign tv on the issue and there was very little debate, just two parties arguing very basic concepts. It all boiled down to
Yes- be part of the future of Europe
No- it'll be bad for you


the point im trying to make is that barely anyone knows anything about the constitution people are only guided by what they hear and whoever is more succesful in getting their message across is likely to be succesful on the vote [/b]
Well we had lots of debates and all that on the constitution here, eventhough the only thing our politicians can say is: "if you vote no we will get fucked over and all die in WWIII" It was a big waste of tax-payers' money which we probably be taken away from education since us students are getting fucked over more and more these last few years, or on the medical front...no money for healthcare and education but lots of money for a ineffective and stupid campaign which gave the opposite effect than desired...

I so far only heard the message from our government who is pro constitution and their pro campaign is so dumb and fucked that it actually works for the opposition...

But okay most people in Holland are very pissed off about the Euro because we seriously got fucked over with that thing, they are scared to lose their jobs and healthcare system due to countries like Italy and the new Eastern European countries. Our government has rammed policies down our troats with the excuse that "Europe wants that" so the people here are getting more pissed at this "Europe thing"...still a mystery how the government could ever make the people go pro...oh yeah our government isnt that popular too at the moment :lol:

[Kamraten]

Well i must say it was a relief that the french people stood up and gave European union a big kick in the arse, but the voting in france does not mean anyhting alone more countries need to vote "no" to the constitution

It takes all of the 25 members of the union to vote yes to get the constitution installed, well that is already broken. And still the European leaders says, "- it doesnt mather if france voted "no" , we will keep it running. "
So that means that the voice of the French people doesnt count? it means that the vote doesnt mather?.
well like a swedish political person said :" we hope that there will be 2nd vote in france."
Yes lets have a 2nd vote, and lets have it again, again and again until they vote "yes" or why care lets just install the new constitution.

If not more countries vote no for this constitution they will force it threw either way.
so lets hope there is a "no" victory tomorow aswell. To take the final air out of this constitution and reveal the true face of the European union.

[fernando]

You know that all these pro-constitution politician keep on making the dumbest remarks which just strenghten the oppositions of these plans...truly great!

[Guerrilla22]

The whole reason behind the European constitution is to implement reforms that would enable Europe to become more influential and to become economically competitive with the US. The problem is, in order to rival the US economically Europe would have to convert to a complete, unchecked, free market system, like the US. Its not going to help anyone by creating another world wide capitalist juggernaut.

Besides, European governmnets need to preserve their more socialist aspects. Wide spread deregulation will only lead to a decrease in the overall standard of living in Europe, which in most Western European countries is much higher than the US.

[__ca va?]

I haven't read all of the posts but as far as I can see, most people here are against the constitution. I think that the only problem with the constitution is that no one has read it, and regarding this no one can make a decision whether it is good or bad.

For example the French voted against it partially because they simply wanted to defy Chirac and on the other hand because they were afraid of Central-European immigrants, such as Poles and the further expansion of the EU (Turkey joining the EU).


I dislike the idea of a European Constiution. Whilst i would like to see unity amongst all nations, at least in Europe, this unity cannot happen whilst the capitalist system is still in place. This is beacuse all the wealth and resources of the entire EU pooled together will create a hugely powerful, capitalist state, which is certainly not what we need right now, what with America and the ascent of China.

I like demagogue posts like this one, because they clearly show that people don't know much of the subject they are writing about. Welth and resources of the EU members could be pooled together even right now because there are no customs between the countries so capital can flow freely within the borders of the Union.

I don't know whether there will ever be unity between the nations. But I'm afraid that capitalism is inevitable and the road to socialism leads through capitalism.

[Sa'd al-Bari]

I am strongly against the constitution, and I wouldn’t mind seeing the EU itself crumble.

Let’s take a look at the military aspect of the constitution:

“The member nations strife, in time, to improve their military capacities" - Article I-43.3

This is a precursor to independent E.U. military action worldwide without United Nations mandate. If the European Nations unite their armies, they would be the second military power in the world. Under the provisions of the constitution, member nations would be obliged to supply the E.U. army and act upon a “first strike policy” similar to the one used by the United States.

The Constitution of the E.U. is strongly in favor of the European ruling class. Its provision for capitalist “free market” system essentially means furthering toward profit gaining devices at the expense of labor. By creating a stronger centralized federation under “free market” neo-liberal auspices and military centralization/strengthening, European capital looks to make itself more viable and assertive on the global market in comparison to American capital.

Hence, the European Constitution and the corresponding European Union it would develop is in the interests of the bourgeoisie and is the enemy of the working classes. But under present conditions, this is hardly surprising.

[Gidoot]

I voted NO last wensday I'm for a more social, a greener, safer and more democratic Europe, one which has no ambition to become a single superstate.

[Captain redstar]

I am against the steps which will take us towards being part of the United States of Europe. (as im sure they are planning for).

[choekiewoekie]

Wednesday 62% of the people of the Netherlands voted against the constitution. It was a wonderfull evening, and maybe it brings hope to the people who still have to vote so say no also. Great Britian will be the next country, but it is uncertain the will get the chance to vote.
Unfortunatly our government doesn't think it is necassary to write out new elections for a new government. I can imagine, i just wish there would be more concequences to the 'no', just like in France.....
Next vote about the constitution will be in juli......

[bolshevik butcher]

Im for a united europe, jsut not under thectchorite capitalism. United socialist staes of europe!

[RaiseYourVoice]

I haven't read all of the posts but as far as I can see, most people here are against the constitution. I think that the only problem with the constitution is that no one has read it, and regarding this no one can make a decision whether it is good or bad.

For example the French voted against it partially because they simply wanted to defy Chirac and on the other hand because they were afraid of Central-European immigrants, such as Poles and the further expansion of the EU (Turkey joining the EU).

you just fell for the propaganda of the pro-constitutionists, french people voted "NON" cause a big mobilisation took part in france. the leftist organisations like ATTAC (which i am member of) got many people on their side! very few people actually voted cause of chirac. it was partly a vote against europe, partly for socialism, partly just distrust in politics. but the pro side wasnt better, some voted just for europe, some voted against the left, some voted for chirac. this vote wasnt only about the EU constitution but in the end it decided on it and to say all NON-voters didnt vote for the constitution is just bullshit and a sad excuse.

did YOU read the constitution? i did... i liked parts of it like that the parliament will change and that some of the voting process gets easier. but i didnt like that its based on the "free market" and that the military part.


One person here said that there was nothing in the german media about the constitution. that is true and it had a simple reason. in germany there was no people decision on the EU contitution and the left organisations didnt have money to spend on a a decision thats already made. some smaller groups did inform and protest, but there was no big capmaign like the "le faces de non" in france, which wasn't exactly cheap.

[__ca va?]

you just fell for the propaganda of the pro-constitutionists, french people voted "NON" cause a big mobilisation took part in france.

I stayed at Bordeaux for a week and in fact a "non"-voter told me: "Yes, the constitution is good for Hungary (my country), it is good for France and it is good for Europe but the the French will vote against it because they oppose the government and Chirac" - with these proper words. I beleive that this doesn't stand for all of those who woted with no, but there was certainly a part of voters who used this referendum for their selfish national interests and at the same time didn't give a fuck about the other millions who are affected by the decision.


did YOU read the constitution?

No, it doesn't entertain me to read hundreds of pages of laws. And I can understand that other people feel the same way and decide about a matter they don't know exactly. But my problem is that a large number of people didn'tat all voteabout the constitution, but about their government, at the expense of other EU members.

[turkishXstyle]

iam not sure whether i'd would for or against the constitution, although i live in germany. there are good and bad points in it. one thing that bothers me that the EU will be much more militirized with this constitution. for example, there is no compulsory military service in germany anymore, but according to the new constitution it will be necessery.
on the other hand, consumer rights will be improven highly.

iam not sure how the employee rights will change, some sites say that company-competition boosted (which doesnt sound really nice), other websites says that the constitution comprehends more workers rights.

as a socialist, it also interests me that the constitution makes it possible for countries like bulgaria, rumania and turkey to join the EU.
if these countires would also join the EU, there would be more former Sowjet-states in it than western countries. it may move the EU-politics a step to left

[bolshevik butcher]

The parts that i have read talk about a 'free market economy' it seems to want a thachtcherite eueope. That's why the french left voted against it.