Wisdom from the 16th century

[jake_crocker]

On the US and the occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq .. maybe they should read some of the wisdom of the 16th century. Maybe then they would learn something about politics and international relations;

... no matter how powerful one's armies, in order to enter a country (by this he means have a certain degree of security in controlling it) one needs the goodwill of its inhabitants ..

What do you guys think?

[viva le revolution]

Agree with that point!

[RedStarOverChina]

I ABSOLUTELY HATE Machiavelli. He is the same with those warmongers because they both suggest infinate struggle with no goal of achieving peace. They seem to enjoy the struggle even more than the spoil of war.

Politics is war without bloodshed but Machiavelli's political philosophy is by no means peaceful! it will lead to endless, tireless wars and conflicts.

[jake_crocker]

I didn't say I liked the fella! Some of his work has relevance in the 21st century however.

[Severian]

I think Macchiavelli is well worth reading and thinking about. Far from advocating endless conflict without a goal, he was a bourgeois revolutionary with the goal of a united, independent Italy.

It's worth reading his "Discourses" as well as the better-known "The Prince"; since the Discourses are about the Roman Republic they give a better idea of Macchiavelli's true opinions. (He was a republican and a former official of the Florentine republic.)

Also reflecting Macchiavelli's politics:

Moreover, you cannot satisfy the nobles with honesty, and without wrong to others, but it is easy to satisfy the people, whose aims are ever more honest than those of the nobles; the latter wishing to oppress, and the former being unwilling to be oppressed.
....
Any one, therefore, who has become a prince by the favour of the people, must endeavour to preserve their good will, which will be easy for him, as they will ask of him no more than that he shall not oppress them. But he who, contrary to the will of the people, has become prince by the favour of the nobles, should at once and before everything else strive to win the good will of the people, which will be easy for him, by taking them under his protection.

[More Fire for the People]

I somewhat agree with this and that principle explains why I believe that Stalin's invasion of Finland was not justifiable.

A revolutionary organization cannot promote revolutionary action in a country not from its origin unless it has the will of the people.

[apathy maybe]

The Prince, the most famous work, was written to provide advice to the prince who was governing the city-state that Macchiavelli was living in. It doesn't actually contain Macchiavelli's own preferences, which was more of a republic.

[bolshevik butcher]

The man certainally has a point though, unless the americans kill every raqi they will face resistance.

[Funky Monk]

I enjoyed reading both Discourses and The Prince and would just like to vocalise my support for some of the comments made already in this thread.
First, as Severian points out, Machiavelli wasn't revelling in war, he longed for a time when Italy would unite to drive out the French, Spanish and Swiss and create a unified country.
Second, Machiavelli's work was more of an exploration of state craft rather than a laying down of his beliefs. Of course it is possible at times to recognise his bias but he always used what were fairly contemporary examples to prove his points.

According to Machiavelli's teachings, if i remember the section of the Prince well enough the US should either send in lots of colonists into Afghanistan and Iraq or Bush should go to live there himself.



And since we're on the subject of Machiavelli, what do you all think of his six stage cyclical political thesis?

Monarchy turns to tyranny and is replaced by aristocracy. This turns to an ogliarchy and is replaced by democracy which finally devolves into anarchy and is replaced by a monarchy again. Bare in mind, this must be a pretty loose translation but i can still see examples of this in modern life, both short term adn long term.