FAKE BLACK BLOC's

[Monty Cantsin]

"In a documentary by the German WDR clear images were shown of members of a black bloc cooperating with police. Police watching from a distance of 100 meters took no action against rioting and the plunder of shops and a bank. There is also video imagery of Black bloc members speaking with policemen. The documentary states that it is very likely that many of these Black bloc demonstrators were actually fascists and neo-nazis that came to Genoa to discredit the anti-globalisation movement." http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclope.../black_bloc.htm (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/b/bl/black_bloc.htm)

does anyone know where i could download this doco or find more information about it and it's claims.

[Djehuti]

I have also seen black block:ers cooperate with the police at times. During the EU-summit in Gothenburg 2001 there were several reports of older men encouraging demonstraters to break up stones and attack the police. Later on the Avenue during the riots, very tall and big black block activists started to smash windows, and then when confronted they run back around the corner and towards the police lines. The police raised their billy clubs but when they showed something (probably ID) they were let through. Later they sneaked back again. These where civilian infiltrator cops, from a special unit called Romeo 11, two of the cops are named Benny Stridh and Adrian Luciano (or something like that), they arrested the most demonstrators during the riots.

Also at several times during the demonstrations, nazis where let through the police lines to attack demonstrators, and then fled through the police lines when confronted. This also happened at several times.

It is also interesting that when the riots started (the police attacked a peaceful demonstration, demonstrators where bit by dogs and beaten bloody...soon chaos erupted), the police deliberately drove the chaotic mob of demonstrators down towards the avenue, instead of the opposite direction where there is nothing to destroy. And after that, they just sat and waited while Romeo 11 initiated the destruction of the Avenue.

Today, this is a very common police tactic, though it is ofcource denied. It was also used at Seattle.

[refuse_resist]

Isn't surprising at all. Black Bloc's are easy for agent provacatuers to get into and cause trouble.

[Donnie]

Yeh i've herd of police doing these sort of things at blac blocs. Is there anyway we can stop this?

[Severian]

An old example that was admitted by the FBI provocateur involved. (http://www.mltranslations.org/US/fbi022475.htm)

During one report, he said, the Miami agents "suggested that I try to get into one of the 'affinity groups' which ended up later 'trashing' the taxicabs" around the convention site.

But he said he demurred on the ground that "the type of Left philosophy that I was expounding at that time would not have condoned my doing that."

"The only thing I helped to do," he-said, "was incite people to turn over one of the buses and then told them that if they really wanted to blow the bus up, to stick a rag in the gas tank and light it."

The protesters, he said, were unable to overturn the vehicle.

In a way this knowledge doesn't make much difference; you gotta use the same approach to stop these ultraleft tactic regardless of whether those using 'em are sincere, agents, or a mix. Accusing 'em of being agents doesn't do much good even if they are (they already know), and if they ain't, it'll just make 'em madder.

First, set the right tone from the beginning, that a peaceful, legal demonstration is planned.

Second, have plenty of well-trained marshals.

[Guerrilla22]

Unfortunately, this shit seems to be happening quite a bit. Back in March I was at the war anniversary protest in Denver when some middle aged guy, dressed in a sex pistols shirt kept coming up to me and other students from my school who were there protesting. He kept asking us what are names were and all sorts of other shit. Be careful.

[Monty Cantsin]

does anyone have any online video of this kind of stuff? or docos that i should try and download?

[RockinTheLxSxDx2]

I was talking to some kids in this black block during a protest against the Iraq war in NYC and the black block had just some how figured out 2 guys amongst them were undercover cops and warned everyone around them. Kinda diffrent from what your talking about but just as fucked up. I just can’t believe you have to watch out for secret policeb when your just at a fucking protest!

[coda]

yeah. that's not blac block --- that's entrapment. And grounds for a mistrial. Bastards!

I hope there is video of that. If anybody finds it, please upload it here.

[coda]

Entrapment:

entrapment definition ? entrapment is where a police officer or other law enforcement officer induces a person to commit a crime that the person wouldn?t have committed otherwise for the purpose of bringing a criminal prosecution against that person.

http://www.legal-definitions.com/entrapment.htm


Entrapment

n. in criminal law, the act of law enforcement officers or government agents inducing or encouraging a person to commit a crime when the potential criminal expresses a desire not to go ahead. The key to entrapment is whether the idea for the commission or encouragement of the criminal act originated with the police or government agents instead of with the "criminal." Entrapment, if proved, is a defense to a criminal prosecution. The accused often claims entrapment in so-called "stings" in which undercover agents buy or sell narcotics, prostitutes' services or arrange to purchase goods believed to be stolen. The factual question is: Would Johnny Begood have purchased the drugs if not pressed by the narc?

http://www.legal-explanations.com/definitions/entrapment.htm

[getfreedropout]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 07:56 AM
Yeh i've herd of police doing these sort of things at blac blocs. Is there anyway we can stop this?
Find out who the undercovers are and beat the living shit out of them. They're not wearing riot gear...

[Raisa]

It does make sense that someone would be sent among the people to ruin your demonstration and start a riot so the news just writes about the riot, makes you look like public enemies, and then no one gets your point.

Its called sabatoge.

[pedro san pedro]

maybe its time to start dressing like riot police :P

[slim]

With black blocs it seems to be essential to have a cell system similar to the IRA to avoid infiltration. Only the leader of the bloc knows every single member, the rest know their group.

There would be no infiltrators from the authorities if the cells had a way of finding peoples loyalties or making it so that infiltrators have no effect on the riot anyway.

[RASH chris]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 12:52 PM
With black blocs it seems to be essential to have a cell system similar to the IRA to avoid infiltration. Only the leader of the bloc knows every single member, the rest know their group.

There would be no infiltrators from the authorities if the cells had a way of finding peoples loyalties or making it so that infiltrators have no effect on the riot anyway.
This post demonstrates that you have no idea what the black bloc is. The bloc is not an organisation. It was started as a way for militant insurrectionary anarchists to be able to come together at a protest and accomplish thier goals of confronting police and property damage and to minimze the risk of arrest.

Since then it has become the "cool thing to do". And now every jackass with a bandana locks arms in the streets. The pigs can infiltrate all they want, the black bloc has already been destroyed. I don't know how it is elsewhere but J20 this year in DC was a perfect example. The bloc had 2,000 members, when we hit the police line all but our first three lines ran away.

A more effective protest tactic for those who want to FSU is to split up into small groups, 50-100, and attack all over the place. On J20 200 of us shut down a check point, if we had 10 groups of 200 shutting down entrance points then the parade would've been shut down.

[slim]

I know what a black bloc is, as youve said they are now inneffective so ive suggested an alternative.

You now seem to show a lack of knowledge about black blocs. The main tactic of the police against them is to split them up; your suggestion simply makes their job easier.

As for their goals. The purpose of them is to give a protesting group a point to fall back on and they are used as a rearguard. They are supposed to be highly disciplined and self contained so they can keep formation against advancing batons.

Houden.

[RASH chris]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 07:14 PM
I know what a black bloc is, as youve said they are now inneffective so ive suggested an alternative.

You now seem to show a lack of knowledge about black blocs. The main tactic of the police against them is to split them up; your suggestion simply makes their job easier.

As for their goals. The purpose of them is to give a protesting group a point to fall back on and they are used as a rearguard. They are supposed to be highly disciplined and self contained so they can keep formation against advancing batons.

Houden.
To imply that the bloc should somehow use a form of cell organisation is absurd. The black bloc only exists in the times emidately surrounding an action. So tell me, how could one create and maintain a standing organization?

The police have never, in my experience, or in any accounts I have read attepmted to split the bloc up. What they try to do is seperate members from the bloc and arrest them. My suggestion increases our efficiency, by making the state didivde its forces. We can move much faster than the police can. If we have ten groups of 200 people in downtown DC we will win that day, not them. That's easy to see if you've ever done mass protesting in DC, and I find it hard to believe that it is all to different in other metropolitan areas.

The goals which you have stated are very different from those which were held by any of the blocs I have participated in or read about. In my experience the bloc wasn't a thing to fall back too, we are in the front of the march. The bloc was used so that everybody looks alike and can evade arrest, so that everybody can lock arms to prevent each other from being singled-out, etc. And to bring enough radicals together in one central area so that they can FSU.

However, the last part of your post, I agree with entirely.

[slim]

Maybe we're misinterpreting eachother, damn computers lol.

I think that with black blocs there are a sort of unnoficial membership type thing. Those with experience get involved more and there needs to be some sort of organised fashioning for obtaining armour (bin lids for shields etc) and gain enough members, have a rendevous point etc.

The problem is that black bloc tactics need to be updated as the times suggest. In the USA for example, the PATRIOT act has given the police more powers to keep surveillence on black bloc activists. I dont trust a black bloc to win anymore, what will stop the police using rubber bullets next time?

[coda]

They've already used plastic and rubber bullets on the black bloc at the FTAA protest in Miami 2003. 100's of activist were injured and hospitalized.


check out the photos.


http://www.benfrank.net/nuke/ftaa112003/Po...y_in_Miami.html (http://www.benfrank.net/nuke/ftaa112003/Police_Brutality_in_Miami.html)

http://www.benfrank.net/nuke/ftaa112003/am...an_justice.html (http://www.benfrank.net/nuke/ftaa112003/american_justice.html)

[slim]

The cold hearted capitalist scum.

This is an obvious example of the need to reform the use of black blocs. If the usual example is used again then it could be worse.

[RASH chris]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 01:41 PM
The cold hearted capitalist scum.

This is an obvious example of the need to reform the use of black blocs. If the usual example is used again then it could be worse.
Yeah, but making some form of arganizational structure is just asking to be infiltrated. I think we need to decentralize it. I maintain that 10 groups of 200 can do a lot of damage, they can move faster than the police and really wreak some havoc.

Not to say they're more effective than a good big bloc, but we don't have those anymore. Blocs are now usually comprised of people just trying to have fun. SO we've got to change our tactics so that thrill seekers will loose interest. And creating an organisation will just, in my opinion, open the door for new problems.

[slim]

But now we have to think what kind of tactics will make thrill seekers lose interest and still keep majority support?

Making smaller groups would cause the blocs greater risk of encirclement and defeat.
Bigger groups would be unwieldly.
Organised groups may be infiltrated.
Disorganised groups may be unco-ordinated and poorly equiped.

[RASH chris]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 10:08 AM
But now we have to think what kind of tactics will make thrill seekers lose interest and still keep majority support?

Making smaller groups would cause the blocs greater risk of encirclement and defeat.
Bigger groups would be unwieldly.
Organised groups may be infiltrated.
Disorganised groups may be unco-ordinated and poorly equiped.
In my experience smaller groups have not been encircled. Having been involved in such an action I assure you that the bloc can move faster than the pigs. If the bloc keeps moving the pigs can't catch up. There is simply not enough police to contain 2000 people spread out in a city.

Now, if 200 people were to stay in one area they would be encircled. But in the time it would take to do so the other groups of 200 would be wrecking the rest of the city. And the cops know that, so they keep thier forces divided and they keep chasing you around, and you keep on the move.

It's guerrila warfare applied to protest.

[slim]

Sounds reasonable.

Using such tactics could also mean that veteran blocs could pick off isolated pig units chasing other blocs.

[RASH chris]

The only problem is actually getting something like that done. Or having enough people to get it done.

[slim]

That is a problem. I dont know a lot about american concentration of anarchists but in England i reckon you could probably rally about 500 in London at the most.

[RASH chris]

It really depends on the event, the day, even the weather. On J20 05, for Bush's 2nd innauguration, we had 2000 in an "anarchist" march. Everybody was blocked up, it was huge, and it was awe-inspiring to look at. On A16 05, for the World Bank/IMF protests there were a total of probably 500 protestors, and maybe 100 in the bloc. And when we broke off to try and have a confrontation, there were only maybe two dozen of us. (needless to say we didn't do much of anything) But on the A16 in 00 (for the same cause) there were tons of people, and every street around the world bank/IMF headquarters was sealed off.

It's sad that the turnout is so unpredictable. But I'd say that to hold something in DC, we could count on probably around 500 as a safe bet, I'd say 1000 as max. (with those rare exceptions like the ones cited above) And such small numbers really doesn't provide us with what we need to implement the strategy I suggest.

[slim]

Actually, ive reconsidered my original numbers.

London has a notorious history of mob violence. If we could only harness it and convince people we could have many thousands.

As you said the weather makes a difference. Thats a big problem in England lol.

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 10:33 PM
It really depends on the event, the day, even the weather. On J20 05, for Bush's 2nd innauguration, we had 2000 in an "anarchist" march. Everybody was blocked up, it was huge, and it was awe-inspiring to look at. On A16 05, for the World Bank/IMF protests there were a total of probably 500 protestors, and maybe 100 in the bloc. And when we broke off to try and have a confrontation, there were only maybe two dozen of us. (needless to say we didn't do much of anything) But on the A16 in 00 (for the same cause) there were tons of people, and every street around the world bank/IMF headquarters was sealed off.

It's sad that the turnout is so unpredictable. But I'd say that to hold something in DC, we could count on probably around 500 as a safe bet, I'd say 1000 as max. (with those rare exceptions like the ones cited above) And such small numbers really doesn't provide us with what we need to implement the strategy I suggest.
the problem with unpredictiality with black bloc numbers is police harrasment of affinity groups. :ph34r:

[RASH chris]

Originally posted by rise up+Jun 12 2005, 06:20 PM--> (rise up @ Jun 12 2005, 06:20 PM)
[email protected] 2 2005, 10:33 PM
It really depends on the event, the day, even the weather. On J20 05, for Bush's 2nd innauguration, we had 2000 in an "anarchist" march. Everybody was blocked up, it was huge, and it was awe-inspiring to look at. On A16 05, for the World Bank/IMF protests there were a total of probably 500 protestors, and maybe 100 in the bloc. And when we broke off to try and have a confrontation, there were only maybe two dozen of us. (needless to say we didn't do much of anything) But on the A16 in 00 (for the same cause) there were tons of people, and every street around the world bank/IMF headquarters was sealed off.

It's sad that the turnout is so unpredictable. But I'd say that to hold something in DC, we could count on probably around 500 as a safe bet, I'd say 1000 as max. (with those rare exceptions like the ones cited above) And such small numbers really doesn't provide us with what we need to implement the strategy I suggest.
the problem with unpredictiality with black bloc numbers is police harrasment of affinity groups. :ph34r: [/b]
It's definitely more than that. Money is always an issue, most people can't afford to go to a protest on the other side of the country. And if they do, it'll be the only one they do that year. And a lot of it has to do with groups organizing and the percieved militancy of the protest. Like A16, they were boring groups organizing, so nobody thought there'd be action, so nobody went.

I know lots of people who participate in blocs and aren't even in affinity groups.

[violencia.Proletariat]

if people are worried about under covers starting the destruction of things and then later haveing the news discredit anarchists as property destroyers. why dont protesters have a pre-protest meeting to clarify what targets should be destroyed(mcdonalds, banks, etc) instead of peoples cars or random stores. this way you can clearly defend yourselves if these other objects are attacked by undercovers, you can prove it wasnt you.

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 08:57 PM
if people are worried about under covers starting the destruction of things and then later haveing the news discredit anarchists as property destroyers. why dont protesters have a pre-protest meeting to clarify what targets should be destroyed(mcdonalds, banks, etc) instead of peoples cars or random stores. this way you can clearly defend yourselves if these other objects are attacked by undercovers, you can prove it wasnt you.
its really not that easy.... mass meetings in a protest envirment is also a dangerous thing because of agent provocitors

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by rise up+Jun 13 2005, 03:38 AM--> (rise up @ Jun 13 2005, 03:38 AM)
[email protected] 12 2005, 08:57 PM
if people are worried about under covers starting the destruction of things and then later haveing the news discredit anarchists as property destroyers. why dont protesters have a pre-protest meeting to clarify what targets should be destroyed(mcdonalds, banks, etc) instead of peoples cars or random stores. this way you can clearly defend yourselves if these other objects are attacked by undercovers, you can prove it wasnt you.
its really not that easy.... mass meetings in a protest envirment is also a dangerous thing because of agent provocitors [/b]
i understand that but by those guidelines how could undercovers take advantage of the meetings? i mean, they wouldnt be discussing tactics.

[Organic Revolution]

but they would take notes

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by rise [email protected] 13 2005, 06:51 PM
but they would take notes
on what protecting certain targets? thats the only thing they could do for what they would be talking about in this meeting. that would also screw them over if they are busy protecting targets while leaving the main purpose of the protest open, whatever that might be

[Organic Revolution]

no they would take notes on who is preaching the most property distruction and nab them up.

[slim]

That is true. They would collect intelligence on the preachers and see them as the figureheads of the struggle. Taking them would heavily lower our morale.