the demise of the wise

[rcb31415]

Why do churches and religions think that the only way to maintain their level of "operativeness" is by appealing to the emotional masses? Would it not be wise to reach out to the rational and logical and bid them be members of a religious movement? Or have i answered my own question...the religious zealot is not rational most of the time...therefore why should the religious structure be reaching out to any one else...someone help me get this straight!

[Publius]

I think the key to understanding religion is to post in the correct forum.

Just kidding, it isn't that they don't use reason, it's that they don't use reason well. They reason God's existance, but they fail to reason his disexistance, and compare the two.

There are good arguments FOR God's existance, but there are even better ones for God's nonexistance.

This, I think, is the key. Because of infantile emotional state (Sad as it may be to say) they are hopelessly attached to 'God' (Really, just the concept of a Big Brother that supports them when they need support and forgives them when they commit horrible sins) and don't even THINK of him not existing.

It's not the lack of reason, it's the use of reason in an ineffectual manner.

[apathy maybe]

Religion generally isn't rational. Thus you answered your own question.

If people thought about things rationally and examined their belief systems systematically then most people would stop believing in a lot of stuff they presently do believe in.

The lack of rational thought behind (most) religion is why the rulers encourage it and want to keep it around. If people thought rationally about things, they would realise that the system they live in is not to their best advantage. They would then try and choose a different one.

Education is needed to teach people to think logically and rationally, but 'the boss' doesn't want that.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Pretty much what everyone else said. Religion doesn't attract the rational because it itself is irrational.

Plus the fact that rational people are put off by all that servile 'worshipping' crap.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Is this irrational?:

1) I would live a Christian life even if I was not Christian. I would want to live with respect and compassion for my fellow humans.

2) When I die I will win a big jackpot as a Christian.

3) When I die as a non-believer that is it, I'm dead.

4) Thus for just a little extra effort, I'm gambling for a big pay off at the end.

[Publius]

Is this irrational?:

1) I would live a Christian life even if I was not Christian. I would want to live with respect and compassion for my fellow humans.

2) When I die I will win a big jackpot as a Christian.

3) When I die as a non-believer that is it, I'm dead.

4) Thus for just a little extra effort, I'm gambling for a big pay off at the end.

Yes, it is very irrational.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 07:49 PM

Is this irrational?:

1) I would live a Christian life even if I was not Christian. I would want to live with respect and compassion for my fellow humans.

2) When I die I will win a big jackpot as a Christian.

3) When I die as a non-believer that is it, I'm dead.

4) Thus for just a little extra effort, I'm gambling for a big pay off at the end.

Yes, it is very irrational.
You mean a small token effort of belief for the possibility of a very large pay off?

That is irrational?

I call it a hedge for a good bet. Like the lottery you know. If I spend just 1 dollar, I will continue my life just the same even if I loose the dollar, but if I win, I win big.

[Publius]

No, I mean the entire concept is illogical.

You're not going to get anything, as God is not real.

It's like me saying if I believe in Unicorns, I'll go to heaven.

It's stupid as fuck.

Unicorns (Like God) do not exist. Believing in them is hopeless fantasy.

If I were God, and people believe in me, I'd send their asses to hell for being so stupid.

And don't you think God will be able to tell the difference between True Believers and people like you? What do you think he'll go to people like you?

Will he say "Wow, they sure beat me! I never thought of this possibility, I should let them into Heaven for being so damn clever"

or

"Those stupid humans, think their so fucking smart! I'll give that fucker cancer, see what he thinks of me THEN!"


The fact is, you have no way of knowing if God exists, if God likes you, if God cares about you or even if God hates you and wants to punish you for his own sadistic fun.

You're not gambling in the lottery, you're playing Russian roullete. Personally, I just forget about him.

If he is real, and he is perfect, and he is beneavalent, he knows what to do with me a lot better than I do.

But he isn't, so it doesn't matter.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 01:42 AM
No, I mean the entire concept is illogical.

You're not going to get anything, as God is not real.

It's like me saying if I believe in Unicorns, I'll go to heaven.

It's stupid as fuck.

Unicorns (Like God) do not exist. Believing in them is hopeless fantasy.

If I were God, and people believe in me, I'd send their asses to hell for being so stupid.

And don't you think God will be able to tell the difference between True Believers and people like you? What do you think he'll go to people like you?

Will he say "Wow, they sure beat me! I never thought of this possibility, I should let them into Heaven for being so damn clever"

or

"Those stupid humans, think their so fucking smart! I'll give that fucker cancer, see what he thinks of me THEN!"


The fact is, you have no way of knowing if God exists, if God likes you, if God cares about you or even if God hates you and wants to punish you for his own sadistic fun.

You're not gambling in the lottery, you're playing Russian roullete. Personally, I just forget about him.

If he is real, and he is perfect, and he is beneavalent, he knows what to do with me a lot better than I do.

But he isn't, so it doesn't matter.
I'm playing a different game. I'm playing the lottery not russian roulette. If I win I win big. If I loose, I loose a dollar, and continue on. Roulette implies if I loose, I loose big. If I win, I win nothing.

You are sure he doesn't exist? So much so that you would not bet a dollar? I'm betting a dollar and continue on with my life as if I normally would if there was no God. The dollar I'm betting is all I have to do is believe and nothing else.

[Zingu]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 04:15 AM

I'm playing a different game. I'm playing the lottery not russian roulette. If I win I win big. If I loose, I loose a dollar, and continue on. Roulette implies if I loose, I loose big. If I win, I win nothing.

You are sure he doesn't exist? So much so that you would not bet a dollar? I'm betting a dollar and continue on with my life as if I normally would if there was no God. The dollar I'm betting is all I have to do is believe and nothing else.
Sounds like Pascal's Wager.



Problem is, which god to believe in?. If you choose the wrong one, you go to hell. And its possible to make up an infinite amount of gods.


Even if you chose the right one, do you think would appreciate you for you worshipping him out of fear of hell? No! You're a coward!

Or would he accept you to heaven for living a good life and a free counciness without any mental slavery imposed by organized religon?


Just forget about god, as Publius said, it doesn't matter (expection to the political part of religon or if you're a Communist of course).

[Publius]

I'm playing a different game. I'm playing the lottery not russian roulette. If I win I win big. If I loose, I loose a dollar, and continue on. Roulette implies if I loose, I loose big. If I win, I win nothing.

You are sure he doesn't exist? So much so that you would not bet a dollar? I'm betting a dollar and continue on with my life as if I normally would if there was no God. The dollar I'm betting is all I have to do is believe and nothing else.

No, what you're betting is essentially this:

I bet an imaginary dollar than a Unicorn will fly through my window at 10 a clock and night, and give me a million dollars.

Isn't that a bet worth making!? YOU COULD WIN A MILLION DOLLARS!

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 07:39 PM
You mean a small token effort of belief for the possibility of a very large pay off?

That is irrational?

I call it a hedge for a good bet. Like the lottery you know. If I spend just 1 dollar, I will continue my life just the same even if I loose the dollar, but if I win, I win big.
That dollar is actually your freedom.
You do what (you assume) god wants you to do for the payoff of going to heaven.
If you follow Christianity, then you have to go to church every week, be subjugated by men if you are a woman, remain subjugated by your master if you are a slave, although most of the emphasis is placed on "spiritually" devoting yourself to god. This is the one dollar you have to pay to go to heaven. Modern Christianity is one of the easiest.

Furthermore, you're just being blackmailed by the fuckers who wrote some book thousands of years ago.

If some hobo on the street tells you "Hey! If you don't lick the shit off of my shoe, you'll burn for eternity in the afterlife." would you lick the shit off his shoe?
Better safe than sorry, right? No.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by Zingu+May 22 2005, 06:05 AM--> (Zingu @ May 22 2005, 06:05 AM)
[email protected] 22 2005, 04:15 AM

I'm playing a different game. I'm playing the lottery not russian roulette. If I win I win big. If I loose, I loose a dollar, and continue on. Roulette implies if I loose, I loose big. If I win, I win nothing.

You are sure he doesn't exist? So much so that you would not bet a dollar? I'm betting a dollar and continue on with my life as if I normally would if there was no God. The dollar I'm betting is all I have to do is believe and nothing else.
Sounds like Pascal's Wager.



Problem is, which god to believe in?. If you choose the wrong one, you go to hell. And its possible to make up an infinite amount of gods.


Even if you chose the right one, do you think would appreciate you for you worshipping him out of fear of hell? No! You're a coward!

Or would he accept you to heaven for living a good life and a free counciness without any mental slavery imposed by organized religon?


Just forget about god, as Publius said, it doesn't matter (expection to the political part of religon or if you're a Communist of course). [/b]
Which god?

How about which lottery?

I play 1 dollar in one lottery every week. I don't try to play 52 different lotteries around the country. I just bet on one and continue on.

Subjugation? I call it humility. The same humility I show to my fellow man.

Licking shit? I don't get it?

I don't feel like I'm licking shit. Service and humility before the poor and needy is not licking shit. It is compassion and justice. God judges me by my actions vs my fellow man, not by the actions with or against God. So licking shit from God's shoe is a poor analogy. If that hobo is the poor and needy, then I would step forward and help them. I would humble myself before the needy and lend a hand. If you think that is licking shit, then you don't have compassion and justice in your heart. I hope you have it, if you don't then your not a very good comrade. If you don't have it then there really is not much hope for communism is there? If your the best that communism has got, then how about the rest of us more flawed comrades? If your the most compassionate and humble that communist has got, then communism is going to be a terrible and mess of injustice and suffering.

What God wants me to do is what I would do anyhow if he did not exist. I would want to be compassionate and humble towards my fellow man. I would do it if he didn't exist. If you already do that, then next all you have to is just believe. Doing so buys you a one dollar lottery ticket.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 07:41 PM


I'm playing a different game. I'm playing the lottery not russian roulette. If I win I win big. If I loose, I loose a dollar, and continue on. Roulette implies if I loose, I loose big. If I win, I win nothing.

You are sure he doesn't exist? So much so that you would not bet a dollar? I'm betting a dollar and continue on with my life as if I normally would if there was no God. The dollar I'm betting is all I have to do is believe and nothing else.

No, what you're betting is essentially this:

I bet an imaginary dollar than a Unicorn will fly through my window at 10 a clock and night, and give me a million dollars.

Isn't that a bet worth making!? YOU COULD WIN A MILLION DOLLARS!
Make it 10 million and I will believe that Mike Tyson will be wearing a tutu while riding that Unicorn.

That possibility is NOT ZERO. It is remote, but not ZERO.

The remote possibility of it happening plus the gamble of 1 dollar is worth that bet to me. I could spend that dollar on a vending machine candy bar. Either way with or without that candy bar, I will continue on with my life anyhow. But compared to you I got that one lottery ticket that may pay off. While your possibility without a doubt is ZERO.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

I gave up my freedom for a rigid morality, and all I got was this tasteless waffer and shitty wine . . . in the hopes I might earn eternal subjegation to a calous, jealous, bore.

Yr individualism is weak.

[Publius]

How do you know my possibility is zero?

Perhaps God only rewards those who DON'T believe in him, and I have a 100% of getting into heaven and you have zero.

Can you prove that this ISN'T the case?

Of course not.

So, since we're just making shit up here, I win!

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Subjugation? I call it humility. The same humility I show to my fellow man.

Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with
eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God. -
Colossians 3:22

Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme: or unto governors... - 1 Peter 2:18

... Then said the Lord to me, Go ye, love a woman, beloved of her friend,
yet an adulteress... so I bought her... - Hosea 3:1

Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good
and gentle, but also to the foward. - 1 Peter 2:18

Unto the women he (God) said "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy
conception; in sorrow thou shall bring forth children and thy desire shall
be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." -Genesis 3:16

If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be
unclean seven days... But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be
unclean two weeks... - Leviticus 12:2-8

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
- Colossians 3:18

Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands... - 1 Peter 3:1

[Women] are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
- I Corinthians 14:34

I can go on...


Licking shit? I don't get it?

It was a metaphor for you subduing yourself according to the alleged will of "god".


I don't feel like I'm licking shit. Service and humility before the poor and needy is not licking shit. It is compassion and justice. God judges me by my actions vs my fellow man, not by the actions with or against God. So licking shit from God's shoe is a poor analogy. If that hobo is the poor and needy, then I would step forward and help them. I would humble myself before the needy and lend a hand. If you think that is licking shit, then you don't have compassion and justice in your heart. I hope you have it, if you don't then your not a very good comrade. If you don't have it then there really is not much hope for communism is there? If your the best that communism has got, then how about the rest of us more flawed comrades? If your the most compassionate and humble that communist has got, then communism is going to be a terrible and mess of injustice and suffering.

What the fuck are you talking about?

I used hobo as just a random person. A nobody. Someone who you had no reason to listen to.

Yeah, it's good to be nice to the underprivileged, but because you seek equality and justice, not because "god" said so. Fuck that. Try thinking for yourself, eh?


What God wants me to do is what I would do anyhow if he did not exist. I would want to be compassionate and humble towards my fellow man. I would do it if he didn't exist. If you already do that, then next all you have to is just believe. Doing so buys you a one dollar lottery ticket.

Bullshit.

That can be said for anyone who has control over anyone else. I want my dog to do what he would do if I didn't exist. Although if he does something that I don't want him to do, then he just fucked up, right?

If god didn't exist, how would you know not to buttfuck? We're really not harming anyone else except failing to follow "god's" wants.

Your analogies are shit.