Facts, Let's see some cappie stats.

[cormacobear]

Haven't poked the sleeping bear in a while let's see what the cappies think of these. :lol:

-There are now 200 billionaires living in the U.S.

-3 out of 10 Americans will face poverty sometime in their lives

-25% of L.A. citizens are not getting enough food to meet basic nutritional needs.

-Around 20% of American children are living in poverty. An estimated two million are homeless some time during the year, including whole families and people who have full- or part-time jobs.

-. The United States is the wealthiest nation. But its 20.3 percent child poverty rate ranks worse than all European nations.

[cormacobear]

-Historians Will and Ariel Durant19 estimated in their survey that the gap between the wealthiest and the poorest in America has become greater than at any time since Imperial plutocratic Rome.

Feel free to add your own but be prepared to quote source. :D

[Rage]

Children in America have higher poverty rates than adults, and people 65 and over have higher chronic poverty rates and lower exit rates than children or adults.

In 2003, the poverty rate for related children under six living in families increased to 19.8 percent, or 4.7 million children, up from 18.5 percent and 4.3 million in 2002.



Yay for Poverty!


The sad thing is many Americans who live in poverty or are homeless are there because of a mental retardness that they have no control of.


/,,/
Rock on!

[Publius]

Here are some of the better links from my Bookmarks, these should suffice.

http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/ Comparison of the EU and the USA

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg1713.cfm Facts on poverty

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba484/ba484.pdf Facts on health care


Since America is much more demonstrably rich than Europe, those poor saps over there must be doing horribly.


And tell me, if 25% of L.A citizens are getting enough food to live, how are they alive?

[Publius]

And are there any particular stats you would like, or do you feel like continuing with your unsourced, likely made up 'stats'?

[Rage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 08:24 PM
And tell me, if 25% of L.A citizens are getting enough food to live, how are they alive?
He said 25% are NOT getting enough food.


/,,/
Rock on!

[Publius]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 08:27 PM



He said 25% are NOT getting enough food.

...to meet nutritional NEEDS.

If you are still alive, you are getting the food that you NEED, the instant you stop getting the nutrition you NEED, you die.

He chose the term, not me.

[cormacobear]

No insufficient nutrients can result in many things, slowed growth rates, weakened immune systems, distended bellies. With insufficient nutrients it can take decades to die.

post-autistic economics review
Issue no. 31, 16 May 2005
Greed (Part I)
Julian Edney 1
© Copyright: Julian Edney 2002-2005


Peer reveiwed Economics Journal, sufficient credentials?

[Publius]

No insufficient nutrients can result in many things, slowed growth rates, weakened immune systems, distended bellies. With insufficient nutrients it can take decades to die.

post-autistic economics review
Issue no. 31, 16 May 2005
Greed (Part I)
Julian Edney 1
© Copyright: Julian Edney 2002-2005


Peer reveiwed Economics Journal, sufficient credentials?

Fair enough, I just think that 'necessary' implies something else.

[t_wolves_fan]

There are some interesting stats in here. (http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/chn-summary-eng)

China

Despite a few positive steps, no attempt was made to introduce the fundamental legal and institutional reforms necessary to bring an end to serious human rights violations. Tens of thousands of people continued to be detained or imprisoned in violation of their rights to freedom of expression and association, and were at serious risk of torture or ill-treatment. Thousands of people were sentenced to death or executed. Restrictions increased on the cultural and religious rights of the mainly Muslim Uighur community in Xinjiang, where thousands of people have been detained or imprisoned for so-called “separatist” or “terrorist” offences. In Tibet and other ethnic Tibetan areas, freedom of expression and religion continued to be severely restricted. China continued to use the international “war against terrorism” as a pretext for cracking down on peaceful dissent.

Background

A new administration headed by President Hu Jintao and Premier Wen Jiabao took office in March and introduced a few positive reforms, including the abolition of the “custody and repatriation” system of administrative detention (see below). However, no significant attempt was made to address underlying legal and institutional weaknesses that allow human rights violations to be perpetrated with impunity.

The outbreak of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS) in February became the first major test for the new leadership. After months of attempting to conceal vital information about the spread of the disease, the authorities eventually began to respond to international pressure for greater accountability and transparency. The World Health Organization announced that the outbreak was under control in June.

In July, a senior Chinese leader, Luo Gan, called for a continuation of the “strike hard” campaign against crime, which led to a rapid rise in the number of death sentences and executions after its initiation in April 2001, raising fears that this would continue to result in curtailed trial procedures, the use of torture and ill-treatment to obtain “confessions” and imposition of the death penalty without due process.

In August delegates to the Ninth National Women’s Congress reportedly discussed a survey that showed that domestic violence had occurred in a third of all Chinese families. Increased media reporting on this issue appeared to indicate a growing willingness to tackle this entrenched and widespread abuse.

China strengthened its ties with neighbouring countries, including Central Asian countries under the auspices of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, as well as India, Nepal and Pakistan. One motive appeared to be the forcible return of Chinese nationals, particularly Uighur asylum-seekers and refugees branded as “separatists” or “terrorists” by the Chinese authorities.

There were concerns that the international community was taking a “softer” line on China by confining its human rights concerns to private dialogue sessions rather than public scrutiny. These were borne out when for the second year running the UN Commission on Human Rights failed to propose a motion criticizing China’s human rights record. Nevertheless, the UN Special Rapporteur on education delivered a highly critical assessment of China’s education policies following her visit to Beijing in September.

Violations in the context of economic reform

The authorities took an increasingly hard line against people protesting against house demolitions and evictions, particularly in large cities such as Shanghai and Beijing, where demolitions of old homes were accelerated by Beijing’s preparations for hosting the Olympics in 2008. Scores of peaceful protesters were detained and lawyers assisting in such cases were at risk of arrest or intimidation.

The rights of freedom of expression and association of workers’ representatives continued to be severely curtailed and independent trade unions remained illegal. Many of those involved in protests against mass lay-offs, low wages, corrupt management and other issues were detained or imprisoned.

* In October, Zheng Enchong, a defence lawyer in Shanghai, was sentenced to three years in prison after he had assisted hundreds of displaced families to contest their evictions through the courts. He was convicted of the vaguely defined offence of “illegally providing state secrets to entities outside China” following a prosecution which appeared to be politically motivated.

* In May workers’ representatives Yao Fuxin and Xiao Yunliang were sentenced to seven and four years in prison respectively after participating in protests in Liaoyang in northeast China where state-owned companies had laid off millions of men and women. They were transferred in October to Lingyuan Prison, notorious for its poor conditions and brutal regime, despite concerns that they were suffering from serious health problems.


Violations in the context of the spread of HIV/AIDS

Increasing openness on health issues after the outbreak of SARS appeared to result in greater official concern for those affected by HIV/AIDS, but the authorities failed to meet demands for full transparency and accountability in the context of the spread of the virus. Official figures of 840,000 people infected with HIV and 80,000 AIDS patients were considered to be serious underestimates.

The authorities continued to resist calls from non-governmental organizations (NGOs) and others to conduct an independent inquiry into the operation of state-sanctioned blood collection stations in Henan and other central provinces which reportedly resulted in up to one million HIV infections. Vaguely defined “state secrets” legislation continued to be used to detain those suspected of publicizing statistics about the spread of the disease. Medical specialists and others who attempted to raise public awareness of the issue were arrested or intimidated.

People living with HIV/AIDS continued to suffer because of a lack of specialized medical treatment and some were detained and beaten after participating in protests relating to lack of access to medical care.

* In September Gao Yaojie, a gynaecologist in her seventies, was tried for libel in connection with her accusation that untrained Henan “folk doctors” had made false claims about their AIDS remedies to make huge profits. She was aquitted in November. There were serious concerns that the case had been brought for political reasons to disrupt her work. Gao Yaojie had reportedly been placed under surveillance by local police and warned against speaking to journalists since she began to draw attention to the spread of HIV/AIDS in Henan in the mid-1990s.


Repression of spiritual and religious groups

Members of unofficial spiritual or religious groups, including some Qi Gong groups and unregistered Christian groups, continued to be arbitrarily detained, tortured and ill-treated.

Rhetoric intensified in the official media against the Falun Gong spiritual movement, which was banned as a “heretical organization” in July 1999, apparently exacerbating the climate of violence and intolerance against the Falun Gong. Detained Falun Gong practitioners, including large numbers of women, were at risk of torture, including sexual abuse, particularly if they refused to renounce their beliefs. According to overseas Falun Gong sources, more than 800 people detained in connection with the Falun Gong had died since 1999, mostly as a result of torture or ill-treatment.

* Deng Shiying reportedly died on 19 July, the day after her release from Jilin Women’s Prison in Changchun City, Jilin Province, where she was serving a seven-year prison sentence in connection with producing and distributing information describing human rights violations against Falun Gong practitioners in China. According to Falun Gong sources, she was beaten by other inmates, apparently prompted by prison officials, shortly before her release.


Political activists and Internet users

Political activists and Internet users continued to be arrested after peacefully exercising their rights to freedom of expression and association. Many were imprisoned after unfair trials, often on vaguely defined charges relating to “state secrets” or “subversion”. One dissident, Wang Bingzhang, was sentenced to life imprisonment on “terrorist” charges (see below).

By the end of the year, at least 50 people had been detained or imprisoned after accessing or circulating politically sensitive information on the Internet. Sentences ranged from two to 12 years. Over 100 others were detained for “spreading rumours” or “false information” by Internet and text message about the outbreak of SARS in March. It was unclear how many were still detained at the end of the year.

* In May, Huang Qi, a computer engineer from Sichuan province, was sentenced to five years’ imprisonment for “inciting subversion of the state” after he published articles on his website about human rights and political issues. Huang Qi had been detained without access to his family for almost three years before his sentence was announced. His sentence was upheld on appeal in August. In November, Liu Di, a psychology student from Beijing, who had appealed for the release of Huang Qi in an Internet chatroom under the pseudonym “Stainless Steel Mouse”, was released on bail after being detained for over a year. In December it was announced that she would not face formal indictment.

* Veteran dissident Kang Yuchun was released from prison five years before the end of his sentence on the eve of the European Union (EU)-China human rights dialogue in October.


Torture, administrative detention and unfair trials

Torture and ill-treatment remained widespread in many state institutions. Common methods included kicking, beating, electric shocks, suspension by the arms, shackling in painful positions, and sleep and food deprivation. Women in detention were vulnerable to rape and sexual abuse.

“Custody and repatriation”, a system of administrative detention which had allowed for the arbitrary detention and abuse of millions of migrant workers, vagrants, homeless children and others in urban areas, was formally abolished when new rules for dealing with vagrancy came into effect in August. Its abolition was prompted by a public outcry about the brutal murder of migrant worker Sun Zhigang in March while he was being held unlawfully in a “custody and repatriation” centre in Guangzhou city.

However, another system, “re-education through labour”, continued to allow for the detention of hundreds of thousands of people for up to three years without charge or trial. In September the Ministry of Public Security announced new regulations aimed at preventing the police from using torture in administrative cases, but it remained unclear how well they would be enforced in practice.

People accused of both political and criminal offences continued to be denied due process. Detainees’ access to lawyers and family members continued to be severely restricted. Political trials fell far short of international fair trial standards. Those charged with offences related to “state secrets” or “terrorism” had their legal rights restricted and were tried in camera.

* In February US-based dissident Wang Bingzhang became the first democracy activist known to have been convicted of “terrorist” offences. He was sentenced to life imprisonment in connection with various charges, including passing military secrets to Taiwan and leading a “terrorist” group. There were serious violations of Chinese and international law during his trial and pre-trial detention. In May the UN Working Group on Arbitrary Detention ruled that his arrest and detention were arbitrary and called on the authorities to remedy the situation.


Death penalty

The death penalty continued to be used extensively and arbitrarily as a result of political interference. People were executed for non-violent crimes such as tax fraud and pimping as well as drug offences and violent crimes. The authorities continued to keep national statistics on death sentences and executions secret. By the end of the year, with the limited records available, AI had recorded 1,639 death sentences and 726 executions, although the true figures were believed to be much higher.

Execution was by shooting and increasingly by lethal injection. In March it was reported that the authorities in Yunnan province had purchased 18 mobile execution chambers for execution by lethal injection to improve the “efficiency” and “cost-effectiveness” of executions.

Judicial interpretations issued by the Supreme Court in May and September respectively extended the potential application of the death penalty to people suffering from SARS who deliberately spread the disease, and to those involved in the illegal production, trade and storage of defined quantities of toxic chemicals.

* In January Lobsang Dhondup, a Tibetan from Sichuan province, was executed after being convicted after an unfair trial of “causing explosions” and other offences. The authorities stated that his trial was held in secret because it involved “state secrets” without providing further clarification. He was executed hours after his sentence was passed, without his case being referred to the Supreme Court for review as required under Chinese law, and despite official assurances to the USA and the EU that his case would receive a “lengthy” review.


North Korean asylum-seekers

Hundreds, possibly thousands, of North Korean asylum-seekers in northeast China were arrested and forcibly returned during the year. China continued to deny North Koreans access to any refugee determination procedures despite evidence that many had a genuine claim to asylum and in breach of the UN Refugee Convention to which China is a state party. Reports suggested that the majority of those crossing the border were women who were at risk of being sold as brides or forced into prostitution. In August China reportedly increased its military presence along the border in an apparent attempt to curb the flow of North Koreans into China.

The crack-down extended to people suspected of helping North Koreans, including members of foreign aid and religious organizations, ethnic Korean Chinese nationals, and journalists attempting to raise awareness of their plight, many of whom were detained for interrogation.

* In May, Seok Jae-hyun, a South Korean journalist, was sentenced to two years in prison for “trafficking in human beings” after he photographed a group of refugees boarding boats bound for South Korea and Japan. It was not known what became of the several dozen North Koreans boarding the boats who were detained at the same time.


Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region

The authorities continued to use the international “war against terrorism” to justify harsh repression in Xinjiang, which continued to result in serious human rights violations against the ethnic Uighur community. The authorities continued to make little distinction between acts of violence and acts of passive resistance. Repression was often manifested through assaults on Uighur culture, such as the closure of several mosques, restrictions on the use of the Uighur language and the banning of certain Uighur books and journals.

The crack-down against suspected “separatists, terrorists and religious extremists” intensified following the start of a renewed 100-day security crack-down in October. Arrests continued and thousands of political prisoners, including prisoners of conscience, remained in prison. Concerns increased that China was putting pressure on neighbouring countries to forcibly return Uighurs suspected of “separatist” activities, including asylum-seekers and refugees.

* Officials confirmed in October that Shaheer Ali, who had been forcibly returned to China from Nepal in 2002, had been executed after being found guilty of “terrorist” offences in a closed trial. He had been recognized as a refugee by the UN High Commissioner for Refugees in Nepal. Shaheer Ali had secretly left behind a detailed testimony in which he described being beaten, given electric shocks and kicked unconscious during a previous period of detention in 1994.


Tibet Autonomous Region and other ethnic Tibetan areas

A series of releases of high-profile Tibetan prisoners of conscience during 2002 was not maintained in 2003, and freedom of religion, association and expression continued to be severely restricted. Contacts between the Chinese authorities and representatives of the Tibetan government in exile apparently failed to result in any significant policy changes. Over 100 Tibetans, mainly Buddhist monks and nuns, continued to be imprisoned in violation of their fundamental human rights, and arbitrary arrests and unfair trials continued.

* Choedar Dargye, Gedun Thogphel and Jampa Choephel, three monks from Khangmar monastery, Ngaba prefecture, Sichuan province, were tried in August. They had been arrested for distributing material calling for independence for Tibet, painting a Tibetan flag and possessing photographs of the Dalai Lama. They were sentenced to 12 years in prison. Three others were arrested in connection with the same case. Some sources indicated that they had been sentenced to between one and eight years in prison. One of the three, Jamyang Oezer, was reported to be seriously ill in hospital.

[t_wolves_fan]

More here (http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/cub-summary-eng)

2003 saw a severe deterioration in the human rights situation in Cuba. In mid-March the Cuban authorities carried out an unprecedented crack-down on the dissident movement. Seventy-five long-term activists were arrested, unfairly tried and sentenced to up to 28 years’ imprisonment; they were prisoners of conscience. In April, three men convicted of involvement in a hijacking were executed by firing squad, ending a three-year de facto moratorium.
Criticism from the international community, including countries and individuals previously supportive of the Cuban government, intensified. The Cuban authorities sought to justify these measures as a necessary response to the threat to national security posed by the USA. The US embargo and related measures continued to have a negative effect on the enjoyment of the full range of human rights in Cuba.

Prisoners of conscience

Eighty-four prisoners of conscience remained held, seven of whom were awaiting trial at the end of the year.

Crack-down in March
A government crack-down in March led to the imprisonment of most of the leadership of the dissident movement including teachers, librarians, journalists, medical personnel, and political and human rights activists. Only a few very well-known figures critical of the regime were not affected.

Detainees were brought to trial immediately and subjected to hasty and unfair proceedings. Most were charged under Article 91 of the Penal Code with “acts against the independence or territorial integrity of the state” or under the previously unused Law for the Protection of the National Independence and the Economy of Cuba. The latter mandates stiff prison terms for anyone found guilty of supporting US policy against Cuba. The dissidents were convicted on the basis of activities such as giving interviews to the US funded broadcasting station for Cuba, Radio Martí; receiving materials or funds believed to have originated in the US government; or having contact with officials of the US Interest Section in Havana, whom Cuban authorities had accused of engaging in subversive and provocative behaviour. By the end of the year all the sentences had been ratified by the Supreme Popular Court, exhausting the possibilities for appeal under Cuban law. Following a detailed assessment of the available evidence against them, AI considered that all 75 were prisoners of conscience.

* Marcelo López Bañobre, a member of the Comisión Cubana de Derechos Humanos y Reconciliación Nacional, Cuban Commission for Human Rights and National Reconciliation, was sentenced to 15 years in prison for, among other activities, “sending information to international organisms like Amnesty International”.


Health concerns
There were continuing concerns about the health of many prisoners of conscience. Some were reportedly denied access to appropriate medical attention and held in harsh conditions. Access to family was limited, as many of the prisoners were held in facilities far from their home provinces.

* Roberto de Miranda Hernández, aged 56, was believed to have suffered a heart attack, cardiac pain and a stomach ulcer in custody. The health of Oscar Manuel Espinosa Chepe, aged 63, deteriorated after his arrest, making it probable that he would need a liver transplant. The families of both claimed that prison conditions contributed to their illnesses.


Releases
A handful of prisoners of conscience were released during 2003.

* Yosvany Aguilar Camejo, José Aguilar Hernández and Carlos Oquendo Rodríguez were released on 11 October after having spent 20 months in prison. The latter was the only one of the three to have been tried and sentenced.

* Bernardo Arévalo Padrón was released in November after having served six years for “disrespect” towards President Fidel Castro and Vice-President Carlos Lage.

* Eddy Alfredo Mena González, sentenced in 2000 to five years’ imprisonment on charges including “disrespect” and “public disorder”, was also released.


Executions resumed

The three-year de facto moratorium on the use of the death penalty ended with the execution by firing squad of Lorenzo Enrique Copello Castillo, Bárbaro Leodán Sevilla García and Jorge Luis Martínez Isaac on 11 April. They were among a group of people convicted of hijacking a Cuban ferry with several dozen passengers on board. The hijacking was resolved without violence. The three men were brought to trial, found guilty under “anti-terrorism” legislation, and had their appeals denied all within the space of one week. This raised profound concerns about the fairness of the judicial procedure to which they were subjected. President Castro said the executions were necessary to halt hijackings and stem a growing migration crisis from Cuba to the USA. Approximately 50 prisoners remained on death row at the end of the year.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Publius+May 17 2005, 09:33 PM--> (Publius @ May 17 2005, 09:33 PM)
[email protected] 17 2005, 08:27 PM



He said 25% are NOT getting enough food.

...to meet nutritional NEEDS.

If you are still alive, you are getting the food that you NEED, the instant you stop getting the nutrition you NEED, you die.

He chose the term, not me. [/b]
Actually no you don't you just don't get enough to live a healthy life. There is a difference between starvation and a deficient diet.

There was nothing wrong with his choice of words, just your apparent inability to comprehend basic statements.

t_wolves_fan

Did you know that the battle of waterloo was faught on 18th June 1815? You see, that fact is about as relevent as everything you posted.

Well done.

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 08:08 PM
Haven't poked the sleeping bear in a while let's see what the cappies think of these. :lol:

-There are now 200 billionaires living in the U.S.

-3 out of 10 Americans will face poverty sometime in their lives

-25% of L.A. citizens are not getting enough food to meet basic nutritional needs.

-Around 20% of American children are living in poverty. An estimated two million are homeless some time during the year, including whole families and people who have full- or part-time jobs.

-. The United States is the wealthiest nation. But its 20.3 percent child poverty rate ranks worse than all European nations.
What's the definition of poverty here ? Purely arbitary no doubt. Are you honestly trying to tell us that 3/10 people are homeless and starving ?

By the way, how's the food situation in Zimbabwe ?

[Publius]

Actually no you don't you just don't get enough to live a healthy life. There is a difference between starvation and a deficient diet.

There was nothing wrong with his choice of words, just your apparent inability to comprehend basic statements.

No, the term was so vaguely defined it could mean anything from deathly starved to simply not recieving enough calcium to prevent osteoperosis later in life.


Do you consider a minor lack of calcium a horrific defect of capitalism?

[LSD]

By the way, how's the food situation in Zimbabwe ?

Pretty bad.

...but that's capitalism for you.

[Publius]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 18 2005, 07:45 PM



Pretty bad.

...but that's capitalism for you.

The Zimbabwe ran by Robert Mugabe?

This Zimbabwe? :

In recent years, poor management of the economy and political turmoil has led to considerable economic hardship. The Government of Zimbabwe's chaotic land reform program, recurrent interference with, and intimidation of, the judiciary, as well as maintenance of unrealistic price controls and exchange rates has led to a sharp drop in investor confidence. Since 2000, the national economy has contracted by as much as 25%; inflation has vaulted over 400%; and there have been persistent shortages of foreign exchange, local currency, fuel, and food. Direct foreign investment has all but evaporated. Billions were spent in the country's involvement in the war in the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

So this capitalist country, has engaged in land redistrubtion, price controls, fluctuations in exchange rates, lack of rule of Law, exit of foreign investors, numerous wars, and a government managed haphazardly by the GOVERNMENT, headed by a despotic dictator?


Capitalism has had NOTHING to do with the Socialist hellhole that is Zimbabwe.

In fact, name for me one capitalist country that has had it's GDP shrink 13.6 points in a single year.


It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about, or what causes the poverty in Africa.

[Publius]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 18 2005, 07:45 PM



Pretty bad.

...but that's capitalism for you.

The Zimbabwe ran by Robert Mugabe?

This Zimbabwe? :

In recent years, poor management of the economy and political turmoil has led to considerable economic hardship. The Government of Zimbabwe's chaotic land reform program, recurrent interference with, and intimidation of, the judiciary, as well as maintenance of unrealistic price controls and exchange rates has led to a sharp drop in investor confidence. Since 2000, the national economy has contracted by as much as 25%; inflation has vaulted over 400%; and there have been persistent shortages of foreign exchange, local currency, fuel, and food. Direct foreign investment has all but evaporated. Billions were spent in the country's involvement in the war in the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

So this capitalist country, has engaged in land redistrubtion, price controls, fluctuations in exchange rates, lack of rule of Law, exit of foreign investors, numerous wars, and a government managed haphazardly by the GOVERNMENT, headed by a despotic dictator?


Capitalism has had NOTHING to do with the Socialist hellhole that is Zimbabwe.

In fact, name for me one capitalist country that has had it's GDP shrink 13.6 points in a single year.


It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about, or what causes the poverty in Africa.

[cormacobear]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 07:37 AM

China

Despite a few positive steps, no attempt was made to introduce the fundamental legal and institutional reforms necessary to bring an end to serious human rights violations. Tens of thousands of people continued to be detained or imprisoned in violation of their rights to freedom of expression and association, and were at serious risk of torture or ill-treatment. Thousands of people were sentenced to death or executed. Restrictions increased on the cultural and religious rights of the mainly Muslim Uighur community in Xinjiang, where thousands of people have been detained or imprisoned for so-called “separatist” or “terrorist” offences. In Tibet and other ethnic Tibetan areas, freedom of expression and religion continued to be severely restricted. China continued to use the international “war against terrorism” as a pretext for cracking down on peaceful dissent.

Violations in the context of economic reform

The authorities took an increasingly hard line against people protesting against house demolitions and evictions, particularly in large cities such as Shanghai and Beijing, where demolitions of old homes were accelerated by Beijing’s preparations for hosting the Olympics in 2008. Scores of peaceful protesters were detained and lawyers assisting in such cases were at risk of arrest or intimidation.

The rights of freedom of expression and association of workers’ representatives continued to be severely curtailed and independent trade unions remained illegal. Many of those involved in protests against mass lay-offs, low wages, corrupt management and other issues were detained or imprisoned.

* In October, Zheng Enchong, a defence lawyer in Shanghai, was sentenced to three years in prison after he had assisted hundreds of displaced families to contest their evictions through the courts. He was convicted of the vaguely defined offence of “illegally providing state secrets to entities outside China” following a prosecution which appeared to be politically motivated.

* In May workers’ representatives Yao Fuxin and Xiao Yunliang were sentenced to seven and four years in prison respectively after participating in protests in Liaoyang in northeast China where state-owned companies had laid off millions of men and women. They were transferred in October to Lingyuan Prison, notorious for its poor conditions and brutal regime, despite concerns that they were suffering from serious health problems.



First passage; and all this amid the fastest growing capitalist market in the world. Thank you for proving capitalism does not equal freedom.

Second Passage quoted; sounds like capitalism at it's finest.

[cormacobear]

3/10 people will suffer poverty AT SOME TIME IN THEIR LIVES.

The poverty line is a set number. Which is a fact. I have quoted statistics while you have listed anecdotes.

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 18 2005, 07:45 PM
Pretty bad.

...but that's capitalism for you.
Mugabe is a communist, and a racist one too. He's reclaiming land from the white "oppressors" and handing it out to the "oppressed".

Things don't seem to be going accoring to plan, do they ?

[Professor Moneybags]

3/10 people will suffer poverty AT SOME TIME IN THEIR LIVES.

So 3/10 people will be homeless and starving only at sometime in their lives.

I still don't buy it.


The poverty line is a set number.

Uh, set by who ?


Which is a fact. I have quoted statistics while you have listed anecdotes.

You have evaded my question- what is the definition of poverty in relation to these statistics and how is arrived at, if not arbitarily ?

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Jesus. He asks for facts and you guys give him an accusation of Mugabe being communistic and implying that China, Cuba is communist. You didn't refute a single fact, rather said "I still don't buy it". Nor did you provide proof for Mugabe or China, Cuba being Communist.

How far do you go to defend the glory of your empire?

[cormacobear]

-There are now 200 billionaires living in the U.S.
. Galvin, J. "Wretched excess." 2000, Ziff Davis Smart Business for the New Economy, August 1, p. 122.

-3 out of 10 Americans will face poverty sometime in their lives
"3 in 10 Americans face poverty, study says." 1998, Los Angeles Times, August 10, Section A p. 15

-25% of L.A. citizens are not getting enough food to meet basic nutritional needs.
"Many miss out on food stamps." 2001, Los Angeles Times, June 23. Section B p.1.

-Around 20% of American children are living in poverty. An estimated two million are homeless some time during the year, including whole families and people who have full- or part-time jobs.
. Profile of the nation: An American portrait. 2000, Farmington Hills, MI., Gale Group. P. 180.

-. The United States is the wealthiest nation. But its 20.3 percent child poverty rate ranks worse than all European nations.
. Vleminckx, K. and Smeeding, T.M. (Eds) Child well-being, child poverty and child policy in modern nations. 2001.
Bristol, U.K.: The Policy Press. (Available from the University of Toronto Press.)


O.K. now let’s hear your credentials, and we’ll see if they are sufficient for you reputably to call these peoples reaearch into question.

[Publius]

Jesus. He asks for facts and you guys give him an accusation of Mugabe being communistic and implying that China, Cuba is communist. You didn't refute a single fact, rather said "I still don't buy it". Nor did you provide proof for Mugabe or China, Cuba being Communist.

How far do you go to defend the glory of your empire?

Read: In recent years, poor management of the economy and political turmoil has led to considerable economic hardship. The Government of Zimbabwe's chaotic land reform program (Note: Read that as "Take land from rich white people") , recurrent interference with, and intimidation of, the judiciary, as well as maintenance of unrealistic price controls and exchange rates has led to a sharp drop in investor confidence. Since 2000, the national economy has contracted by as much as 25%; inflation has vaulted over 400%; and there have been persistent shortages of foreign exchange, local currency, fuel, and food. Direct foreign investment has all but evaporated. Billions were spent in the country's involvement in the war in the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

All of this is Mugabe's fault.

And even if he isn't a communist (He is), he is still a tyrannical, socialist dictator resonsible for the deaths of thousands.

You defend him? How likely.

[Publius]

Europe is far more poor than America. Become educated: http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/

Learn about 'poverty' in America here: http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg1713.cfm

Learn about billionares here:

http://www.forbes.com/2003/02/26/billionaireland.html

Quote: "The collective net worth of the 691 billionaires we could find is $2.2 trillion, up $300 billion from the combined worth of the 587 people listed last year. Every region saw gains. The world's richest moguls now hail from 47 countries, including, for the first time, Kazakhstan, Poland, Ukraine and even Iceland. The newcomers include 69 Americans and 38 Europeans. More than half of them are entirely self-made.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Don't fuckin care. I have nothing to do with Mugabe, nor can you proof that he is Communist. It has as much ground as the Bush is nazi argument. Nor is it any way relevant to what he says. In your twisted mind a communist's dream a giant welfare state. You don't say anything relevant to what he posts.

[Publius]

Don't fuckin care. I have nothing to do with Mugabe, nor can you proof that he is Communist. It has as much ground as the Bush is nazi argument. Nor is it any way relevant to what he says. In your twisted mind a communist's dream a giant welfare state. You don't say anything relevant to what he posts.

LSD made the point that the failure in Zimbabwe was due to capitalism.

I corrected him.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

That's in your dreamworld. In the real world, we see that Zimbabwe is ruled by a bourgeoisie class. What Mugabe was doing was replacing the white upperclass and middleclass of Zimbabwe with a black one. I have never read in any Communist literature stating that as the goal. But I am sure that you got some non-Communistic source which "proofs" otherwise.

Zimbabwe is like all other countries capitalistic, with some socialistic tendencies in order to keep the masses at ease. But it is still capitalist.

[Publius]

That's in your dreamworld. In the real world, we see that Zimbabwe is ruled by a bourgeoisie class. What Mugabe was doing was replacing the white upperclass and middleclass of Zimbabwe with a black one. I have never read in any Communist literature stating that as the goal. But I am sure that you got some non-Communistic source which "proofs" otherwise.

Zimbabwe is like all other countries capitalistic, with some socialistic tendencies in order to keep the masses at ease. But it is still capitalist.

Mugabe was a socialist in action, perhaps not a communists, but certainly a despotic African thug.

Zimbabwe is not ruled by a bougeoisie class, that is a bold faced lie, Mugabe is a dictator.

How did that last election turn out again?

Tell me, how is Zimbabwe capitalistic? What companies are run there? How many people work in factories there? Who are its leading businessmen?

Prove to me Zimbabwe is or was capitalistic.

[enigma2517]

I've noticed that a lot of cappies and commies are similiar in their arguments. One out of three is about semantics and what is and isn't communism/capitalism. On hand the capitalists are incredibly stubborn and most don't recognize that communism is a theoritical stateless classless society that has never existed before hence you can't use any modern day nation-states or politicians to prove your point. On the other I've seen communists doing the exact same thing. Nobody is entirely capitalist either.

Somebody on Capitalist Paradise (think it was Invictus, not sure) claimed that places like America are just modern day mercantilists. Taking into account the concept of lassiez-faire capitalism I'd have to say they're right in that respect.

Same scenario here. Taiwan, the US, and Zimbabwe are all extremely different nations. Its unfair to categorize them all as capitalistic. They do, however, exhibit a large amount of the traits of the system: profit as a determinant of production, wages, classes, general market mechanisms, etc.

So lets all stop being so polarmetirc and objectively look at this.

[enigma2517]

Just a little side also

Publius posted a link to a document comparing Europe and the United States

Skimming over it I noticed that many of the conclusions were reached through examining the GDP of these countries. That is to be expected however you should check this out

http://www.wscsd.org/ejournal/article.php3?id_article=121

It explains why GDP is a poor indicator of development.

And finally, speaking from just personal experience, the US is richer but life in Europe certainetly has its upsides. While still capitalists their culture has a much lesser focus on materialism and it certainetly makes a lot of people's live happier and more fulfilling. America has cheap jeans and big SUVs but I find life here all a bit too hectic sometimes.

[Publius]

I've noticed that a lot of cappies and commies are similiar in their arguments. One out of three is about semantics and what is and isn't communism/capitalism. On hand the capitalists are incredibly stubborn and most don't recognize that communism is a theoritical stateless classless society that has never existed before hence you can't use any modern day nation-states or politicians to prove your point. On the other I've seen communists doing the exact same thing. Nobody is entirely capitalist either.

Somebody on Capitalist Paradise (think it was Invictus, not sure) claimed that places like America are just modern day mercantilists. Taking into account the concept of lassiez-faire capitalism I'd have to say they're right in that respect.

Same scenario here. Taiwan, the US, and Zimbabwe are all extremely different nations. Its unfair to categorize them all as capitalistic. They do, however, exhibit a large amount of the traits of the system: profit as a determinant of production, wages, classes, general market mechanisms, etc.

So lets all stop being so polarmetirc and objectively look at this.

I would say that the term mercantilist fits perfectly with many modern nations, particularly the U.S.

[Publius]

Just a little side also

Publius posted a link to a document comparing Europe and the United States

Skimming over it I noticed that many of the conclusions were reached through examining the GDP of these countries. That is to be expected however you should check this out

http://www.wscsd.org/ejournal/article.php3?id_article=121

It explains why GDP is a poor indicator of development.

And finally, speaking from just personal experience, the US is richer but life in Europe certainetly has its upsides. While still capitalists their culture has a much lesser focus on materialism and it certainetly makes a lot of people's live happier and more fulfilling. America has cheap jeans and big SUVs but I find life here all a bit too hectic sometimes.

You're correct. GDP is flawed, but it IS the best general indicator of wealth, at least the best universally accepted one.

The paper mentions this fact.

The paper also lists other facts such as ownership rates of various electronic items, cars, living space and other things.

Culture certainly plays a role, but it isn't something that can be compared, really.

[cormacobear]

gdp is useless unless the gdp is divided equally among a country's citizens. Money in someone elses pocket does not put a roof over my head. I know lot's of people with T.v.'s who would rather have reliable access to food.

How many tv's americans own does nothing to negate the poverty and homelessness stats. Unless it's to prove that too mu7ch energy is spent providing luxuries, and not enough producing homes and food.

[Publius]

gdp is useless unless the gdp is divided equally among a country's citizens. Money in someone elses pocket does not put a roof over my head. I know lot's of people with T.v.'s who would rather have reliable access to food.

How many tv's americans own does nothing to negate the poverty and homelessness stats. Unless it's to prove that too mu7ch energy is spent providing luxuries, and not enough producing homes and food.

GDP is designed to find the mathamatical, average wage of the people.

It does this.

It does not do what you want it to.

No such (Good) scale exists for determining this.

And homelessness and poverty are not the problems you make tem out to be.

Read: http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg1713.cfm

And I quote: "As a group, America's poor are far from being chronically undernourished. The average consumption of protein, vitamins, and minerals is virtually the same for poor and middle-class children and, in most cases, is well above recommended norms. Poor children actually consume more meat than do higher-income children and have average protein intakes 100 percent above recommended levels. Most poor children today are, in fact, supernourished and grow up to be, on average, one inch taller and 10 pounds heavier that the GIs who stormed the beaches of Normandy in World War II.

While the poor are generally well-nourished, some poor families do experience hunger, meaning a temporary discomfort due to food shortages. According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA), 13 percent of poor families and 2.6 percent of poor children experience hunger at some point during the year. In most cases, their hunger is short-term. Eighty-nine percent of the poor report their families have "enough" food to eat, while only 2 percent say they "often" do not have enough to eat."

Quote: "# Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.
# Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
# Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
# The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)
# Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.
# Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.
# Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.
# Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher."

Quote: For most Americans, the word "poverty" suggests destitution: an inability to provide a family with nutritious food, clothing, and reasonable shelter. But only a small number of the 35 million persons classified as "poor" by the Census Bureau fit that description. While real material hardship certainly does occur, it is limited in scope and severity. Most of America's "poor" live in material conditions that would be judged as comfortable or well-off just a few generations ago. Today, the expenditures per person of the lowest-income one-fifth (or quintile) of households equal those of the median American household in the early 1970s, after adjusting for inflation.1

Source: 1. Comparison of the average expenditure per person of the lowest quintile in 2001 with the middle quintile in 1973. Sources: U.S. Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Consumer Expenditure Survey: Integrated Diary and Interview Survey Data, 1972-73, Bulletin No. 1992, released in 1979, and U.S. Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Consumer Expenditures in 2001, Report No. 966, April 2003. Figures adjusted for inflation by the personal consumption expenditure index.


Your arguments are nothing but emotional drivel.

[cormacobear]

Poverty isn't the problem i make it out to be?

Do you deny either of these facts?
-. The United States is the wealthiest nation. But its 20.3 percent child poverty rate ranks worse than all European nations.


I say poverty exists and should be fixed, do you deny poverty exists? Do you deny there are citizens of the worlds richest country that cannot afford food or medical care?

If a country's GDP is a hundred dollars and the country has 10 citizens, and one man earns 98 dollars and the other 9 earn 22 cents. Suggesting that everyone earns 10$ is far from the truth isn't it?

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 08:45 PM


Actually no you don't you just don't get enough to live a healthy life. There is a difference between starvation and a deficient diet.

There was nothing wrong with his choice of words, just your apparent inability to comprehend basic statements.

No, the term was so vaguely defined it could mean anything from deathly starved to simply not recieving enough calcium to prevent osteoperosis later in life.


Do you consider a minor lack of calcium a horrific defect of capitalism?

Do you consider a minor lack of calcium a horrific defect of capitalism?

Anything which results in my taking extra trips to the dentist or doctor is horrific.

But on the whole, nope. However the effect of western capitalistic intervention in less economically developed nations., now there you get what winds me up.

[Professor Moneybags]

Jesus. He asks for facts and you guys give him an accusation of Mugabe being communistic and implying that China, Cuba is communist.

He is.


You didn't refute a single fact, rather said "I still don't buy it".

So where are all these people who are starving "at some time in their lives" ?Surely, I should have seen hundreds, if not thousands of them every day. Where's "poverty" defined ? Nowhere. It's arbitary and thus meaningless.


Nor did you provide proof for Mugabe or China, Cuba being Communist.

What do you think "land redistribution" is ? Capitalism ?


How far do you go to defend the glory of your empire?

How many more irrelevent points are you going to bring up ?

[Professor Moneybags]

O.K. now let’s hear your credentials, and we’ll see if they are sufficient for you reputably to call these peoples reaearch into question.

I asked what their definition of poverty was and how they arrived at it, not some lame appeals to authority.

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 11:41 PM
Tell me, how is Zimbabwe capitalistic? What companies are run there? How many people work in factories there? Who are its leading businessmen?

Prove to me Zimbabwe is or was capitalistic.
You don't understand. In the commie lexicon, everywhere that isn't a communist utopia must be practicing laissez faire capitalism, as if it was a "default" state.

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 12:02 AM
They do, however, exhibit a large amount of the traits of the system: profit as a determinant of production, wages, classes, general market mechanisms, etc.

Uh, where abouts in Zimbabwe does this happen ?

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 01:21 AM
I know lot's of people with T.v.'s who would rather have reliable access to food.

Obviously not too bright, otherwise they would have sold their TV and used the money to buy food.

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 02:19 AM
Poverty isn't the problem i make it out to be?

I say poverty exists and should be fixed, do you deny poverty exists?
We can't tell you because so far, you have failed to provide us with an objective and consistent definition of what it is.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by Professor Moneybags+May 19 2005, 01:58 PM--> (Professor Moneybags @ May 19 2005, 01:58 PM)
[email protected] 19 2005, 01:21 AM
I know lot's of people with T.v.'s who would rather have reliable access to food.

Obviously not too bright, otherwise they would have sold their TV and used the money to buy food. [/b]
:lol:

That's hilarious.

"I was dumb enough to buy a TV instead of food, but it's the system's fault."

:lol:

[1936]

Profeser money bags you deserve a medal for the most retarded individual on the site.

Mugabe is about as communist as you.

[Publius]

Profeser money bags you deserve a medal for the most retarded individual on the site.

Mugabe is about as communist as you.

Land redistrubution? Check.

Disdain for the wealth businessmen? Check?

Murderous regime? Check.

Economic failure? Check.

Use of commie lingo like 'imperialism' or 'colonialisim' in every speach, regardless of it's actual meaning? Check.

As they say, 'if the shoe fits'.

He isn't a 'Communist', you're right, he's just a socialist dictator who is doing the exact same thing every Commu-Socialist dictator around the world has done.

He's roughly a Lenin.

I think what he's done is a perfect encapsulation of 'communism' as an actual political force, though he is not a 'communist'.

Differentiate Mugabe from Lenin or Stalin.

Aside from the racism, they're essentially the same.

[cormacobear]

You make it sound as if Mugabe gave the land to the peasants working on it. Mugabe gave the land to supporters of his military ambitions, who then kicked the peasants off the land letting it go fallow, and creating a larger homelessness problem.

So buddy sells his t.V. and eats this week, how does that help him next month or next year?

If you've never seen a poor person in America you must be blind.

The poverty line is established by experts, some of the finest economic minds in the world. You don't have to except it, just like you can beleive that gravity doesn't pull things towards the earth.

Here read this it explains how irrelevant the prewcise number is and how it is reached. What impacts it etc. You could obviously do with a lesson or two. Perhaps you should try learning some ethics.

http://www.undp.org/poverty/publications/p...verty_Lines.pdf (http://www.undp.org/poverty/publications/pov_red/Demystifying_Poverty_Lines.pdf)

But if you're gonna cry here use these numbers;The Office of Management and Budget at the Census Bureau defined the poverty threshold in 2003 as $18,810 for a family of four; $14,680 for a family of three; $12,015 for a family of two; and $9,393 for an individual.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 08:41 PM

Profeser money bags you deserve a medal for the most retarded individual on the site.

Mugabe is about as communist as you.

Land redistrubution? Check.

Disdain for the wealth businessmen? Check?

Murderous regime? Check.

Economic failure? Check.

Use of commie lingo like 'imperialism' or 'colonialisim' in every speach, regardless of it's actual meaning? Check.

As they say, 'if the shoe fits'.

He isn't a 'Communist', you're right, he's just a socialist dictator who is doing the exact same thing every Commu-Socialist dictator around the world has done.

He's roughly a Lenin.

I think what he's done is a perfect encapsulation of 'communism' as an actual political force, though he is not a 'communist'.

Differentiate Mugabe from Lenin or Stalin.

Aside from the racism, they're essentially the same.
Not one of those factors you stated are anything to do with communism, hell only a few of them them can be loosly implied regarding a socialist regime.

But, why am I wasting my time with you? You undoubtedly have neither the inclination nor the understanding of the subject matter to have a realistic opinion on the subject. You don't know what your talking about, and no amout of evidence taken from actual socialist theorists will convince you otherwise.

If you take the time to actually learn what it is you are talking about, then maybe a discussion with you will yield some interesting prose, but at the moment I may as well discuss fine art with an chimp, as that would be about as productive.

[Andy Bowden]

Heres a Socialist organisation thats been fighting the Mugabe dictatorship and the free market leadership of the MDC.

http://www.voiceoftheturtle.org/iso/

PS I am not a member or supporter of the British SWP.

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 07:41 PM
Land redistrubution? Check.

Disdain for the wealth businessmen? Check?

Murderous regime? Check.

Economic failure? Check.

Use of commie lingo like 'imperialism' or 'colonialisim' in every speach, regardless of it's actual meaning? Check.
Scapegoating other countries for their domestic failiures : Check

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 02:37 PM
Profeser money bags you deserve a medal for the most retarded individual on the site.
www.dictionary.com

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Andy [email protected] 20 2005, 03:10 PM
Heres a Socialist organisation thats been fighting the Mugabe dictatorship and the free market leadership of the MDC.

http://www.voiceoftheturtle.org/iso/

PS I am not a member or supporter of the British SWP.
Oh please don't, a taste of reality may shatter their primative view of the world, then where would we be?

[Publius]

Oh please don't, a taste of reality may shatter their primative view of the world, then where would we be?

Mugabe invites the farmers, who's worldview has been shattered?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/zimbabwe/article...1489173,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/zimbabwe/article/0,2763,1489173,00.html)

[KC]

Communism as defined by Marx is a classless stateless society. Whenever you think communism think "classless, stateless society." Because youre all a bunch of idiots thinking that agrarian reform has anything to do with communism. Capitalist countries can implement agrarian reform too. And communism isnt a dictatorship. Dictatorship is a form of government, communism is a form of society.

[Publius]

Communism as defined by Marx is a classless stateless society. Whenever you think communism think "classless, stateless society." Because youre all a bunch of idiots thinking that agrarian reform has anything to do with communism. Capitalist countries can implement agrarian reform too. And communism isnt a dictatorship. Dictatorship is a form of government, communism is a form of society.

And we see how true this vision has been.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 08:10 PM
Communism as defined by Marx is a classless stateless society. Whenever you think communism think "classless, stateless society." Because youre all a bunch of idiots thinking that agrarian reform has anything to do with communism. Capitalist countries can implement agrarian reform too. And communism isnt a dictatorship. Dictatorship is a form of government, communism is a form of society.
That is a nice thought, but the reality is much different. The reality is communism becomes a dangerous and evil dictatorship.