Israel

[MKS]

After the reading the article on the Israeli proclivity of the American press and populus, I had a question I wanted to share for discussion.

Should Israel be a nation? What is the "leftist" view on this issue.

Should Israel be allowed to occupy a territory and disperse its native population in the name of divine right, or religous persecution?

Is anti-zionism anti-semitism?

[workersunity]

Israel has no right to exist, anti-zionism isnt bad, anti-semitism is

anti-zionism is that you are against the state of israel, and we all know what anti-semitism

[Omar]

anti-zionism is certainly not anti-semitism otherwise these guys would find themselves in a pretty untenable position:

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
http://www.nkusa.org/
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

[OleMarxco]

Well, well, now let's not start condemning Israel TOO much here, 'tho: Even though it has no formable right to exist (It was created after WWII, me thinkesth) by the western allies for the "Israelis" jews as repaying for their 'bad treatment' (Not even by us!) and was taken from the Palestins, the Intifada ARE using a rather violent approach not only on armed units and places, but innocents too. But I 'spose it's "justified", nevertheless. I support the Intifada moe than Sharon and his chronies, BAH! :D

[viva le revolution]

Israel was actually formed after world war1 when the british got the mandate of Palestine. According to the Balfour declaration formed afterwards jews were allowed to settle there. However the state was still Palestine with both Arab and Jew. Actually the british made false promises to both groups to gain support for the war effort. promising both groups an in dependant state free from Ottoman control. after the war they didn't know what to do so they threw both groups in together.
As a state Israel has a legitimate right to exist. Because it's people are already present there, However their arguement about israel being the promised land since biblical should have no weight as before Jews that land was alreadt occuoied by predecessors to the arabs.
Isarel has a right to exist provided it's religious foundation as a state for jews alone is dropped, that's just rascism and can be argued to some extent fascist. An israel with a mixture of arabs and jews is acceptable, otherwise that state has no right to exist according to any leftist perspective.

[MKS]

Isarel has a right to exist provided it's religious foundation as a state for jews alone is dropped, that's just rascism and can be argued to some extent fascist. An israel with a mixture of arabs and jews is acceptable, otherwise that state has no right to exist according to any leftist perspective

Why not just leave Palestine as Palestine allowing both Jews and Muslims to inhabit the state? Why make a division? Why create an Israel, and why if you have created Israel, create a state of Palestine. Palestine is not all Muslim, there are some Christian Palestinans that live in the region as well.

The Palestinians have been forced out of thier homes, to live in constant fear of Israeli expansion. The Jews may have a right to be there, but so should the Muslims and Christians.

I am in strong opposition of the Israeli state, they have acted barbaricaly towards the Palestinians.

[viva le revolution]

That's in essence what i said call it Palestine, Israel whatever! One state with a mixture of all peoples and religions.

[Omar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 10:48 PM
Why not just leave Palestine as Palestine allowing both Jews and Muslims to inhabit the state? Why make a division? Why create an Israel, and why if you have created Israel, create a state of Palestine. Palestine is not all Muslim, there are some Christian Palestinans that live in the region as well.

The Palestinians have been forced out of thier homes, to live in constant fear of Israeli expansion. The Jews may have a right to be there, but so should the Muslims and Christians.

I am in strong opposition of the Israeli state, they have acted barbaricaly towards the Palestinians.
hit the nail on the head, doing things like this causes divisiveness not just in palestine, but also in kashmir, for hundreds of years mainly good relations between hindus and muslims in the sub-continent then along comes britain differentiating between muslims and hindus and treating them differently then upon independence all hell breaks loose and you end up with the current fiasco: the most militarized area in the world, the site of possible nuclear war in the future and a destabilising force in the region.

[viva le revolution]

I have to agree with Omar seems he has a thorough knowledge of india and pakistan. any chance you're from there comrade?
I'm from Pakistan myself.

[Omar]

Originally posted by viva le [email protected] 17 2005, 11:05 PM
I have to agree with Omar seems he has a thorough knowledge of india and pakistan. any chance you're from there comrade?
I'm from Pakistan myself.
assalamu alaikum wa rahmutallahi then brother :)

im not actually from sub-continent, i read about history and politics extensively though. my father was iranian and my mother is english, i live in britain.

half persian half goreh :D

[viva le revolution]

Walleikum-salaam brother.
Welcome! look forward to hearing from you.

[JC1]

Israel was actually formed after world war1 when the british got the mandate of Palestine. According to the Balfour declaration formed afterwards jews were allowed to settle there. However the state was still Palestine with both Arab and Jew. Actually the british made false promises to both groups to gain support for the war effort. promising both groups an in dependant state free from Ottoman control. after the war they didn't know what to do so they threw both groups in together.


This is false. The Balfour Declaration was revoced in the mid-twentie's. The british took a Line in favor of the the Arab Land Lords after wards , and the only state to sell arms to Israel up to 1951 was the USSR and Chezchslovakia.

Alot of people condemn the Jewish State , but it was created not by imperialism but by groups of Refugee's. Namly Refugee's From the german Camp's and from the Arab world.

Today the Refugee's are coming from the Former USSR and Ethiopia .

Secondly , Why is it that Leftist's dont uphold the right of Israel to Self-Determination ? Comrade's , Us jews are a nation. We have a Culture , And Language and. We are more then a simple religion , why is it our rights are not upheld by me fellow marxists ?

[Omar]

Alot of people condemn the Jewish State , but it was created not by imperialism but by groups of Refugee's. Namly Refugee's From the german Camp's and from the Arab world.

using genocide to inspire sympathy for your political position, is still using genocide.


Secondly , Why is it that Leftist's dont uphold the right of Israel to Self-Determination ? Comrade's , Us jews are a nation. We have a Culture , And Language and. We are more then a simple religion , why is it our rights are not upheld by me fellow marxists ?

and arab's rights mean what to israel? if you are a nation, you are a nation that hasnt existed for well over two thousand years, and you demand your land back? if the canaanites show up anytime soon will you please get off your stolen land and give it back to them. thank you.

and while we're at it could all people living in america who are not native americans please go and live in squalid refugee camps while the native americans bulldoze your houses, build massive walls to keep you off their land and shoot you if you come too near the wall. gracias.

[viva le revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 11:21 PM


This is false. The Balfour Declaration was revoced in the mid-twentie's. The british took a Line in favor of the the Arab Land Lords after wards , and the only state to sell arms to Israel up to 1951 was the USSR and Chezchslovakia.

Alot of people condemn the Jewish State , but it was created not by imperialism but by groups of Refugee's. Namly Refugee's From the german Camp's and from the Arab world.

Today the Refugee's are coming from the Former USSR and Ethiopia .

Secondly , Why is it that Leftist's dont uphold the right of Israel to Self-Determination ? Comrade's , Us jews are a nation. We have a Culture , And Language and. We are more then a simple religion , why is it our rights are not upheld by me fellow marxists ?
First of all it was the balfour declaration that gave jews open permission to settle there. So in essence the state WAS created by british intervention. Afterwards violence erupted between arab and jewish groups that led to a de-facto border between the two and BAM! a new state was founded.
Second no one argues that the jews should be expelled. True you have your own culture however the only fact we are against is exclusion of other people's merely on the basis of their religion. An example, If an israeli woman marries a palestinian or non-jew that person is not granted israeli citizenship. the couple is then faced with the choice to either separate or leave israel. On the other hand an entire tribe from india that claimed to be one of the twelve tribes of israel were given citizenship. go figure.
Third, Israel proclaims itself a jewish state. Marxists are against organized religion so, well it's quite obvious really that minorities are either non-existent in the eyes of the government or they not given any real standing in the state.
Noone has the right to stop jews from living there but no one has the right to bar palestinians from living there either. The government of israel refuses to recognize the palestinian refugees right of return after they were expelled in 1948 from lands that now constitute the state of Israel.

[MKS]

Secondly , Why is it that Leftist's dont uphold the right of Israel to Self-Determination ? Comrade's , Us jews are a nation. We have a Culture , And Language and. We are more then a simple religion , why is it our rights are not upheld by me fellow marxists ?

I think most Marxists would be against the establishement of a state by a religous sect. It is absurd to think of another religous group declaring a "homeland" in an already inhabited land, and then enforcing barbaric exapnaison laws, true the Jews of the world have been unfairly treated horribly, however it does not entitle them to treat others badly. Unfourtuantley the leadership of Israel reflects (or seems to) the sentiments of the Israeli people. Sentiments of intolerance, aggression, cruelty, and what can be called Nationalist Judaism.

[redstar2000]

I think there might be a good deal more support for Israel among "western" leftists had Israel not become a "client-state" of imperialism...initially for the British and the French and, after 1956, for the United States.

An "Israel" that treated the Palestinians fairly and stopped kissing the ass of the United States would probably be regarded with a fair degree of benevolence among "western" leftists.

But at the moment, such an "Israel" is purely imaginary.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 11:41 PM
using genocide to inspire sympathy for your political position, is still using genocide.

Calling it genocide is going a bit too far, comrade.

Don't forget, the Arab forces were even more brutal to the Jewish nation than the Jews were to the Arab nation. I'm sorry that their land was taken, but killing prisoners at kibbutzim is just not the answer.

Israel should not have been created, true, but you can't abolish Israel and make all the Jews move away, because they are natives of the land.

Anyway, i'm kind of sick of the obsession of Israel on this forum. There are alot more pressing matters of the world today. And obsessing about a single issue such as this is unhealthy.

[Guerrilla22]

Israel probaly has more of a right to exist than any country in the Americas does. Remember Israel was once the native, ancestrorial home of the Jews, untill they all took off to escape Roman persecution. Every country in the Americas was once under the control of indigeneous peoples, untill all the Europeans showed, slaughtered most of them and took their land.

The problem is Palestine has as much a right to exist as a sovereign nation as Israel does, however Israel obviously won't let that happen and the west, especially the US has taken a pro-Israeli stance.

As far as Zionism goes, the Zionist are Nazi-Jews. During the holocaust they were the only Jews left alone by the Nazis because the Zionist wanted all the Jews in Europe to leave and return to Europe. The zionist also helped the Nazi regime by reporting people deemed as communist, political adversaries, homosexuals and others.

[El_Revolucionario]

Israel definitely has a right to exist. But so does Palestine. Palestine should be an independent nation, consisting of the Palestinian areas like Gaza and the West Bank.

No anti-zionism is not anti-semitism. there are many anti-zionist jews.

[MKS]

As far as Zionism goes, the Zionist are Nazi-Jews. During the holocaust they were the only Jews left alone by the Nazis because the Zionist wanted all the Jews in Europe to leave and return to Europe. The zionist also helped the Nazi regime by reporting people deemed as communist, political adversaries, homosexuals and others
Quote from Guerilla22 (hi-lighted text by MKS)

I think that is going too far. How could someone be a nazi-jew? No jews (in German territory) were left alone during the holocaust. Some were treated as trustees in the camps, but sooner or later all of them faced extermination. My understaning of Zionism is the belief that the Jews are guaranteed by divine proclomation a homeland, and that the homeland is central to Jewish theology, identity and culture. Some Christian-Fundamentalists agree with Zionism, only because they want all the Jews in one place when Jesus comes back to earth to condemen them to hell. ( I think thats why some neo-cons are so pro-Israel). Its all religous BS to me. However callling Zionists nazis is just a blatant hyperbole.




Israel probaly has more of a right to exist than any country in the Americas does. Remember Israel was once the native, ancestrorial home of the Jews, untill they all took off to escape Roman persecution. Every country in the Americas was once under the control of indigeneous peoples, untill all the Europeans showed, slaughtered most of them and took their land.

the Israelites were forced to leave Judea (not Israel, some say its the same, but the geographical areas are different) by the Romans thus beginning the diaspora, thousands of years ago. Now in 1949 the same Jews come back to the mid-east, pitch their tents and claim they have re-claimed thier homeland. Come on, what a load. There is no evidence to show that the European and American jews that settle and live in Israel now are descendants of the original tribes of Israel. The Israeli people (nation) did exist thoudsands of years ago, but was destoryed by Rome, it is ludicrous to think that the same nation exists today. Modern Israel is nothing but a puppet state for the Western Imperialists and now becoming its own mini-imperialist power.

[Guerrilla22]

think that is going too far. How could someone be a nazi-jew? No jews (in German territory) were left alone during the holocaust. Some were treated as trustees in the camps, but sooner or later all of them faced extermination. My understaning of Zionism is the belief that the Jews are guaranteed by divine proclomation a homeland, and that the homeland is central to Jewish theology, identity and culture. Some Christian-Fundamentalists agree with Zionism, only because they want all the Jews in one place when Jesus comes back to earth to condemen them to hell. ( I think thats why some neo-cons are so pro-Israel). Its all religous BS to me. However callling Zionists nazis is just a blatant hyperbole.

Well you obviously don't know what you are talking about. The zionist where left alone by the nazis and even colaborated with them.


There is no evidence to show that the European and American jews that settle and live in Israel now are descendants of the original tribes of Israel.

Its pretty much been established that they are, maybe not direct descendents because their blood is bound to be mixed over thousands of years. That'slike saying there's no evidence to support the fact that white Americans are descendents of Europeans. Besides all I was trying to point out is that Israel is no more illegitimate than any country in the Americas, or Australia for that matter.

[MKS]

think that is going too far. How could someone be a nazi-jew? No jews (in German territory) were left alone during the holocaust. Some were treated as trustees in the camps, but sooner or later all of them faced extermination. My understaning of Zionism is the belief that the Jews are guaranteed by divine proclomation a homeland, and that the homeland is central to Jewish theology, identity and culture. Some Christian-Fundamentalists agree with Zionism, only because they want all the Jews in one place when Jesus comes back to earth to condemen them to hell. ( I think thats why some neo-cons are so pro-Israel). Its all religous BS to me. However callling Zionists nazis is just a blatant hyperbole.



Well you obviously don't know what you are talking about. The zionist where left alone by the nazis and even colaborated with them.

You're right the Zionists did collaborate with the Nazi leadership on the expulsion of European Jews in order to advance thier claims for a state.

[OleMarxco]

Although that is correctus, But he's not right that the Nazies just simply "left them alone", for how could else could they (The Zionists) be collaborated with if they hadn't approached them? A jew is still a jew in a Nazie's sight, nevertheless-than if they are Zionistic, what does it matter to them if they just ARe, for what else matter to a hardcore Nazei? ARF! ;)

[bolshevik butcher]

Look, i know it's an unfortunate even, but Israel has been founded now, and I think it's seseless to wish to see it pushed into the sea. I think a two state solution is the only answer.

[viva le revolution]

I would rather see one single mixed state than a racist israeli one barring people from it just because they are not jewish. A state like that should be pushed into the sea.

[bolshevik butcher]

So you want to displace millions of people?

[Intifada]

No, s/he wants the Israeli state to be demolished.

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 03:00 AM
I think there might be a good deal more support for Israel among "western" leftists had Israel not become a "client-state" of imperialism...initially for the British and the French and, after 1956, for the United States.

An "Israel" that treated the Palestinians fairly and stopped kissing the ass of the United States would probably be regarded with a fair degree of benevolence among "western" leftists.

But at the moment, such an "Israel" is purely imaginary.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif
Very good point.

I know I'm one of the few here who have that opinion, but I do think that Israel has a right to exist, and Israel can be defended from a leftist perspective. I reject all religous, jewish-fundamentalist justifications for Israel, that is of course utter bullshit and deeply reactionary. Religous zionism has to be fought, just like any other for of nationalism. But, as as result of centuries of anti-semitism/anti-judaism and anti-Jewish progroms which culimanated into the holocaust, for me there is no realistic alternative to Israel as a guerantee for the welfare of the Jews, and as a guerante that another holocaust can never happen again. After the holocaust, the foundation of Israel was nothing than a pure act of self-defense.
Of course, nowadays the politics of Sharon and the current Israeli administration can not be tolerated and justified at all. It's nothing any leftist could ever ally with, just like how most of the Arab nations treated the "Palestinian question" within the past decades BTW, which was nothing than pure hyocricy.
What I'm against is vulgar, simplistic anti-zionism, and anti-semitism in the cloak of anti-zionism, which is quiet common, also among some "leftists". But of course I do not equal anti-semitism and anti-zionism.

The best option from a leftist perspective for the middle-east would of course be a common "Jewish-Plasetinian workers state", as advocated by many of today's communist parties and organisations. But now I don't see that as an realistic option which actually would work out, so as long we don't have that realistic perspective, I do acknowledge the right of Israel to exist.

[Edelweiss]

On a sidenote: There is no "the zionists", just like there is no "the Jews", only because some Zionist lunatics did collaborate with Nazi Germany, it doesn't mean that they did actually represented "the Zionists" or even "the Jews" (what an absurd idea!) back than. I think it is completely irrelevant for any discussion about Israel today. It's most commonly used by anti-semites to agaitate against "the Jews" in general. It's just the same bullshit like saying that Osama Bin laden does represent the Muslims, and it's "the Muslims" which wanted to kill thoasands of people on 911.

[Intifada]

Malte, you are correct in stating that Zionism does not represent Judaism as a whole. The fact remains, however, that Zionism as an ideology must be condemned and fought against. It is a racist ideology, and like all forms of racism, must be confronted.

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 11:29 PM
Malte, you are correct in stating that Zionism does not represent Judaism as a whole. The fact remains, however, that Zionism as an ideology must be condemned and fought against. It is a racist ideology, and like all forms of racism, must be confronted.
I would appreciate it if you would actually reply to what I wrote above, than just to throw around with meaningless phrases.

[Intifada]

Fine, no problem.


Religous zionism has to be fought

What about secular Zionism, of which there were/are many followers, such as Ben-Gurion?


After the holocaust, the foundation of Isreal was nothing than a pure act of self-defense.


What were Arab Palestinians guilty of?


because some Zionist lunatics did collaborate with Nazi Germany, it doesn't mean that they did actually represented "the Zionists"

All Zionists are lunatics.

Read, if you have not done so already, the works of Lenni Brenner, such as 51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration With The Nazis.

[MKS]

After the holocaust, the foundation of Israel was nothing than a pure act of self-defense.
Quote from Malte

The same self defense could have been achieved by leaving Palestine as Palestine. I believe that the creation of Israel was to create a "western" state inside the Middle East, to have a spehere of control in a land rich with oil. Once again the Western powers (mainly the US and England) used altruism as a cover, and gained another Imperial ally, and some would argue puppet. With the creation of Israel, any attack by the Arab states [against Israel] would be used as an excuse for the Western powers to invade or otherwise attack the Arab nations. If the Jews sought a homeland in Central Africa or someother "non-value" area, Im sure the state of Israel would not exist today. Simply put the creation of Israel was Imperialistic oppurtunism (sp).

I hate to use the US as an example, but in the US any person with any religous belief is free to live and seek "proesperity". Creating a state for a certain religous sect is wrong, especially when destorying the homes of thousands of people to do so. The state of Israel should be dissolved, the secular state of Palestine should be established, allowing Jews, Muslims, Christians, whoever a chance to live there. If some people still seek segregation, a smaller province of Judeo-Palestine can be created to accomodate them.

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 01:59 AM

After the holocaust, the foundation of Israel was nothing than a pure act of self-defense.
Quote from Malte

The same self defense could have been achieved by leaving Palestine as Palestine. I believe that the creation of Israel was to create a "western" state inside the Middle East, to have a spehere of control in a land rich with oil. Once again the Western powers (mainly the US and England) used altruism as a cover, and gained another Imperial ally, and some would argue puppet.
No, that's what it is today (although Isreal itself is a "non-value area" as well, it's basicly just a very, very small area of worthless desert, with no oil at all, the value is purely geo-strategical), but when Israel was founded, it was absoloutly not clear that it would be under US domination. Remember, the USSR was the first state which had acknowledged the state of Israel. It was totally uncertain wether Israel would be under western or under USSR hegemonial control.
But back than it was consensus among a huge majority of all UN nations that a Jewish state couldn't be rejected any longer after the horrors of the holocaust. To imply any western conpiracies now afterwards is pure nonsense IMO.

BTW: To reduce the Jews to a "religous sect" is borderline anti-semitic. After WWII Israel became a home for tens of thoasands of European, Jewish refugees, many of them not religous at all.

[Intifada]

Malte, I would appreciate it if you would actually reply to what I wrote.

:)

[LSD]

No country has a "right to exist".

As it stands, every nation on earth is, in some way or another, ultimately on occupied land.

In the end, every state must be abolished!

The only important question here is whether or not Israel is particular in this regard, and if the elimination of the state of Israel now would have any positive effects.

In terms of the first, the simple answer is ...no.

Indeed among the nations of the earth, Israel is probably in the best 25% Yes, its in many ways oppressive, militaristic, dogmatic, in some ways imperialistic, often racist and prejeduced. ...but its largely democratic, republican, it, for the most part, generally respects basic civil rights, has above average freedom of speech, press, etc...

I can tell you that whatever my race or religion, I would rather live in the West Bank than Syria (unless I was related to someone in government, of course :D).

In terms of the second question, if Israel were to, somehow, "disappear" tomorrow, it wouldn't really solve anything. There probably wouldn't be a Palestinian state, not unless some third party intervened. Syria would pretty quickly gobble up the north, Jordan would reclaim the pre-'67 lands -- probably more, and Egypt would probably take the south.

Maybe some of Gaza (maybe) or the parts of the West Bank (even less likely) could achieve some sort of independence, but it would probably be unstable. Even more destabilizing, we'd probably see Palestian terror replaced by Zionist terror, and I can't imagine that Syrian anti-terrorist actions would be better than Israeli (in fact I'm certain they'd be worse!).


I hate to use the US as an example, but in the US any person with any religous belief is free to live and seek "proesperity". Creating a state for a certain religous sect is wrong,

Yes it is. But given the times, it is also perfectly understandable.


The state of Israel should be dissolved, the secular state of Palestine should be established, allowing Jews, Muslims, Christians, whoever a chance to live there.

Unfortunately that is not an option favoured by either side.

The tragic truth is that it is the fanatics that are running the show, whether they be Muslim or Jewish, Palestinian or Israeli.


All Zionists are lunatics.

Only if you define "Zionist" in such a way that it only includes the radicals.

I don't think it is fair to claim that everyone alive or dead that favoured the creation of the state of Israel is a "lunatic".

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 03:35 PM
Although that is correctus, But he's not right that the Nazies just simply "left them alone", for how could else could they (The Zionists) be collaborated with if they hadn't approached them? A jew is still a jew in a Nazie's sight, nevertheless-than if they are Zionistic, what does it matter to them if they just ARe, for what else matter to a hardcore Nazei? ARF! ;)
No, the Nazis did leave them alone. Its true that the Nazis still thought that the zionist were inferior, they also thought that the Japanese were inferior also, but they left the zionist alone because the zionist declared that they wanted to leave Europe and were helping the nazis. Some zionist even thought that the holocaust needed to happen in order to rid the world of supposedly unfaithful Jews as fucked as that sounds its true.


I think it is completely irrelevant for any discussion about Israel today.

The state of Israel would have never happened without zionist pressure. Also the zionist control the Israeli government today, how is questioning the legitamacy of zionism not relevant?

[Intifada]

Only if you define "Zionist" in such a way that it only includes the radicals.


I think it is fair to say that anybody who supports Zionism, per se, is a lunatic.

[Guerrilla22]

No doubt, the zionist are essenteilly the same as the neo-cons, if not more right leaning. Why do we have people on this board trying to stick up for zionist? To say that all zionist are not radical is like saying that not all neo-nazis are racist.

[Reuben]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 04:24 AM

Only if you define "Zionist" in such a way that it only includes the radicals.


I think it is fair to say that anybody who supports Zionism, per se, is a lunatic.
believe it or not when the nazis rounded up jews in the territories they occuppied, they did not stop to check their political opinions. If the Nazis simpyl left the zionists alon wwhy were zionists represented in the leadership of the warsaw ghetto uprising?

[bolshevik butcher]

Most people in israel aren't zionists. I think i'm with malte, that ultimatley a united workers state is the best option, but at the moment i think that the two state solution is the only viable option.

[Guerrilla22]

Yes, however the zionist control Israel.

[Intifada]

believe it or not when the nazis rounded up jews in the territories they occuppied, they did not stop to check their political opinions. If the Nazis simpyl left the zionists alon wwhy were zionists represented in the leadership of the warsaw ghetto uprising?

What I am trying to say is that Zionism, as described and implemented by Herzl and other key figures such as Ben-Gurion and Menachem Begin, is a despicable ideology.

Having said that, I do not believe in the "pushing" of Israel, and it's citizens, "into the sea." Israel exists and cannot now be destroyed. I, like others have already mentioned, would like to see one nation inhabited by Jews and Arabs alike. Unfortunately the likelihood of that happening is tiny.

[MKS]

BTW: To reduce the Jews to a "religous sect" is borderline anti-semitic. After WWII Israel became a home for tens of thoasands of European, Jewish refugees, many of them not religous at all.

Judaism is a religous sect, its clear that the only thing "seperating" a European Jew, from just another European is thier religous backround or religion. I dont think it is at all anti-semetic to call Judaism a religous sect. Although some Jews dont practice thier religion they still profess to be Jewish, therefore they are at the least professing a religous culture.


Yes it is. But given the times, it is also perfectly understandable.

I dont think it is understandable, if a Christian denomination claimed a "homeland" and it was created the world would react violently. Its a double standard to allow one religion a state, and to deny it to others.

since the Jews and muslim arabs are both a semetic people there should be no reason why they cant co-exist in one nation or state. However the fundamentalists on both sides make such an arrangement impossible.

[LSD]

I dont think it is understandable, if a Christian denomination claimed a "homeland" and it was created

Oh, you mean like the Vatican?


the world would react violently.

um....


Its a double standard to allow one religion a state, and to deny it to others.

Yes, because Judaism is the only religion in the world today exhibiting theocratic tendencies. Certainly coutnries like Iran and Saudi Arabia would never dream of mixing religion and government...

Look, I disagree with most of the Israeli government's actions as well, but in the list of middle eastern countries, Israel is one of the least theocratic.


I dont think it is understandable

You're honestly telling me that you don't understand the sentiment in 1945 that it might be a good idea to have a country that would always be a safe refuge for Jews?

Remember, we're talking about nineteen fucking forty-five. Nearly 6 million were dead!

I'm not saying you have to agree with the creation of the state of ISrael ...but can you really say that you can't understand it?


since the Jews and muslim arabs are both a semetic people there should be no reason why they cant co-exist in one nation or state. However the fundamentalists on both sides make such an arrangement impossible.

On this, we are in perfect agreement.


Judaism is a religous sect, its clear that the only thing "seperating" a European Jew, from just another European is thier religous backround or religion. I dont think it is at all anti-semetic to call Judaism a religous sect. Although some Jews dont practice thier religion they still profess to be Jewish, therefore they are at the least professing a religous culture.

Sect: n., A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.

[MKS]

Oh, you mean like the Vatican?

The Vatican is the one of the smallest "nations" in the world, and it wasnt pushed onto a land that wasnt theirs. It was created in a heavily populated Christian area. My point was if in the modern world,lets say the Methodists or even the Catholics claimed a large area of already inhabited land, (inhabited by a mixed-cultural population) the world would react very violently.


Yes, because Judaism is the only religion in the world today exhibiting theocratic tendencies. Certainly coutnries like Iran and Saudi Arabia would never dream of mixing religion and government...

You miss the point, Saudi Arabia are muslim nations because almost all of its citizens are muslims. Israel however created thier nation, or it was created for them, for a paticualr religious group (the Jewish), they displaced thousands of people in doing so, for the sole purpose of creating a Jewish State. If the Iranians occupied and established an all Muslim state in France I would react the same way.



You're honestly telling me that you don't understand the sentiment in 1945 that it might be a good idea to have a country that would always be a safe refuge for Jews?

Remember, we're talking about nineteen fucking forty-five. Nearly 6 million were dead!

I'm not saying you have to agree with the creation of the state of ISrael ...but can you really say that you can't understand it?

No I dont, why couldnt they left Palestine as Palestine? The Jews would have been safe there, and if they wanted further seperation a smaller province called Judeo-Palestine (within Palestine) should have been created. Either way the larger area of Palestine should have remained religon neutral.



Sect: n., A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice

You're right, I misued the word sect. I should have simply said Judaism is a religion.

[Reuben]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 11:29 PM

BTW: To reduce the Jews to a "religous sect" is borderline anti-semitic. After WWII Israel became a home for tens of thoasands of European, Jewish refugees, many of them not religous at all.

Judaism is a religous sect, its clear that the only thing "seperating" a European Jew, from just another European is thier religous backround or religion. I dont think it is at all anti-semetic to call Judaism a religous sect. Although some Jews dont practice thier religion they still profess to be Jewish, therefore they are at the least professing a religous culture.


Yes it is. But given the times, it is also perfectly understandable.

I dont think it is understandable, if a Christian denomination claimed a "homeland" and it was created the world would react violently. Its a double standard to allow one religion a state, and to deny it to others.

since the Jews and muslim arabs are both a semetic people there should be no reason why they cant co-exist in one nation or state. However the fundamentalists on both sides make such an arrangement impossible.
First of all sorry intifada i quoted you i meant to quote someone else - thats why my response to you seemed illogical

the above post by mks is however idiocy

no the only thing distinguishing european jews is not sinmplyreligion. Along side the jewish religion Europenan jewish history involves an enormous secular culture.

Iff jews are simpluy sect distingurished and held together only by religion where would you place yiddish - the secular languagespoken by European jews. How would you explain a phenomenon such as the Jewish workers bund - a marxist organisation which explicitally opposed religion but agitated amongst yiddish.

No your narrow definition of european jewry is divorced from reality

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 12:24 AM

You're honestly telling me that you don't understand the sentiment in 1945 that it might be a good idea to have a country that would always be a safe refuge for Jews?

Remember, we're talking about nineteen fucking forty-five. Nearly 6 million were dead!

I'm not saying you have to agree with the creation of the state of ISrael ...but can you really say that you can't understand it?

No I dont, why couldnt they left Palestine as Palestine? The Jews would have been safe there, and if they wanted further seperation a smaller province called Judeo-Palestine (within Palestine) should have been created. Either way the larger area of Palestine should have remained religon neutral.

You've got to understand the British way of allowing independence. Drawing lines out on a map regardless of the ethnic tensions it may cause was basically how Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and so forth were formed. All you have to do is look at a map and see the unatural straightness of the boundaries.

[MKS]

no the only thing distinguishing european jews is not sinmplyreligion. Along side the jewish religion Europenan jewish history involves an enormous secular culture.

Yeah a secular culture dervied from a (at one time) shared Jewish faith. The Jewish people if not held together by a practicing (sp) Jewish faith, they are held together by a shared Jewish religous tradition (or history). They retained the title Jewish, so they could retain thier shared culture which was a bi-product of their religous traditions.




How would you explain a phenomenon such as the Jewish workers bund - a marxist organisation which explicitally opposed religion but agitated amongst yiddish.

Good question, why would a so called Marxist organisation retain a moniker which identifes with religion? They probably retained the title of "Jewish" in order to relate to the Jewish workers within Europe, simply as a political move. In this instance the name of Jewish probably did not have any religious ties.

[El_Revolucionario]

Okay okay settle down

I'm all in favor of a two-state solution, it's the only way to keep peace.

Israel and Palestine should co-exist side by side as two independent nations.

It's really quite simple.

[Edelweiss]

MKS, you need to understand that Jewry is more than just a religion.

[MKS]

MKS, you need to understand that Jewry is more than just a religion.

I do understand that, however Jewry is based from religion or religous tradition.

My main point being, no nation should be reserved or created for only one religion or religious culture., and that state should have no right to expel people from their homes in order to accomadate expansion.

[Reuben]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 12:44 AM

no the only thing distinguishing european jews is not sinmplyreligion. Along side the jewish religion Europenan jewish history involves an enormous secular culture.

Yeah a secular culture dervied from a (at one time) shared Jewish faith. The Jewish people if not held together by a practicing (sp) Jewish faith, they are held together by a shared Jewish religous tradition (or history). They retained the title Jewish, so they could retain thier shared culture which was a bi-product of their religous traditions.




How would you explain a phenomenon such as the Jewish workers bund - a marxist organisation which explicitally opposed religion but agitated amongst yiddish.

Good question, why would a so called Marxist organisation retain a moniker which identifes with religion? They probably retained the title of "Jewish" in order to relate to the Jewish workers within Europe, simply as a political move. In this instance the name of Jewish probably did not have any religious ties.
I do not deny that the jewish religion - alongside the distinct legal, social and communal position of ejws in Europe - was central to theformation of a secular jewish culture. However regardless of its origins a distinct secular jewish culture and language emerged over hundreds of years. Even if jews had initially been held together by religion it is nonetheless significant that millions of oeoplle were born speaking yiddish, that socilist music was written iin yiddish etc etc.
While i agree that amiong the origns of yiddish culture religious identification may have been, asserting that somethings origins are religious is NOT A SUFFICIENT to determine that its entire character is religious. You cannot establish somethings character simply through looking at its origins.

You ask ' why would a so called Marxist organisation retain a moniker which identifes with religion?'

Quie simply because Jewish or 'Yiddishe' in the languae in which they spoke did not simpl identify with a religion, because they very understandably saw Jews as a nation (not in the territorial sense - they absolutely rejected zionism) made up both of athesits and believers held together by a common language and culture. Regardless of its orignins, Jewish european life went transcended the question of whetherone went to the synagogue

[MKS]

I would contend that the majority of Jewish people living in Europe in the 1940's practised thier religion in some way. Also the majority of Jewish people living in Israel right now, practice their religion in some way. Not to mention all of Israel's national holidays are Jewish holidays and the star of David is on their flag, the nation of Israel is a nation established for the segregation and "protection" of a paticular people of a paticualr religion.

[Reuben]

i wont respond to thecomments on israel as we are both pretty similar in our opposition to zionism

However in relation to you other arguments that 'I would contend that the majority of Jewish people living in Europe in the 1940's practised thier religion in some way. ':

i would be interested to know what proportion of the jews were religious. Certainly the 70 per cent vote amongst the jewish community for the bund in the 1938 polish elections seems to demonstrate a significant shift towards marxism.

Anyway as i said i do not know what proportion was religious.However even if we assume this to be the case I do not see that this validates your initial claims that 'the only thing "seperating" a European Jew, from just another European is thier religous backround or religion' and that 'the only thing "seperating" a European Jew, from just another European is thier religous backround or religion'. Simply stating that the majority of jews were religious does not negate the fact that their were cultural and linguistic factors - which regardless of oriigin were secular in character - holding jews together and cotnributing to a distinct identiy/cultural existence.

Finally could you explain how your statement that the majority of jews practiced a religion addresses and contradicts any of the mass of arguments that i put forward in my above post?

Reuben

[herr_Nosferatu]

Although I don't really want to provide a full opinion on this rather fragile and delicate debate on the legitmacy of Israel, here is an article on pro-zonist left I posted about two years ago that may be relevent to challenge the current thought here.


http://www.ainsof.com/prozion.htm



I don't firmly adhere to any school of thought on this debate, as I believe that Jews must have a place on earth where they need not fear of persecution, but also that I think the conditions Palestinian's live in is so utterly unacceptable and inhumane.

Furthermore;

I don't buy the whole concept of a chosen land and a divine right to live there, for BOTH cases of the jews and the palestinians... Accepting one over the other is a sheer example of double standard frankly unacceptable in a tolerant and peaceful world.

In that case, I confess to accept more the thought that both can and should live in peace in -one- and united land.

If they can't live in peace together, none should be allowed.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 04:06 PM
I would contend that the majority of Jewish people living in Europe in the 1940's practised thier religion in some way. Also the majority of Jewish people living in Israel right now, practice their religion in some way. Not to mention all of Israel's national holidays are Jewish holidays and the star of David is on their flag, the nation of Israel is a nation established for the segregation and "protection" of a paticular people of a paticualr religion.
Pakistan has the islamic moon and star on it. That doesn't mean it's only for muslims.

[novemba]

In the morning when you ride the subway to get to work, can you come back to the same train at the end of the day and try to kick somone out of the same seat you had in the morning? I don't think so. And if you did, your gonna get your ass kicked.

This is the situation at hand.

...but coexistance is the solution...

[bolshevik butcher]

the way israel was formed is terribel, but it's happened, and displacing millions of israelis would be repeating this cycle again.

[workersunity]

You cant be a communist and be for the state of israel, they have no legal right to exist, and have just taken palestinian land. not only that but the zionists are really like nazis, they are just nazis, but instead of anti-semitism they have anti-arab tendencices

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 10:40 PM
You cant be a communist and be for the state of israel, they have no legal right to exist, and have just taken palestinian land. not only that but the zionists are really like nazis, they are just nazis, but instead of anti-semitism they have anti-arab tendencices
Look i said in the long run i am for a joint workers' state., but i don't want to see millins of people further displaced.

[herr_Nosferatu]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 10:40 PM
not only that but the zionists are really like nazis, they are just nazis, but instead of anti-semitism they have anti-arab tendencices
This is absurd...

Are there any concentration camps forcing palestinians to work for jewish workforces, forced to make jewish guns, bullets and bomb...??????

(I.E. like the jews themselves were forced to do in nazi Germany for the German armies)

Are there any extermination camps ? (Like Auschwitz-Burkenau ???)

Are there factories burning corpes of dead palestinians ?
---------------------

Now I know this situation of occupation is a true nightmare for palestinians, and the hardline policies of Ariel Sharon are extremely violent and repressive, but calling Israelis who happen to be proud to live in peace in a land they call their motherland-, nazis is not only offensive but also quite inaccurate.

Furthermore, I'm not a zionist, or an Israeli, nor am I jewish, but I'm quite certain that some zionists in Israel are not anti-arab. By putting them all in the same comparison is really a failure to understand the whole problem.

Yes some are hardliner right-wing nationalists, which can be compared to, only in a vague and idealistic manner, to national-socialists, but they are NOT nazis merely for that similarity...

Yes they truly undermine the peace process, they should be restrained from holding such radical thoughts that don't really create productive dialogues...

But....

They don't advocate building death camps, or concentration camps...

Nor do they advocate taking over the world and filter out the "lesser races" as Hitler did with his "aryan" plans...

All they want is to have a stronger cultural identity, in order to avoid another genocide.

At least that's my take on the whole deal...

[MKS]

Anyway as i said i do not know what proportion was religious.However even if we assume this to be the case I do not see that this validates your initial claims that 'the only thing "seperating" a European Jew, from just another European is thier religous backround or religion' and that 'the only thing "seperating" a European Jew, from just another European is thier religous backround or religion'. Simply stating that the majority of jews were religious does not negate the fact that their were cultural and linguistic factors - which regardless of oriigin were secular in character - holding jews together and cotnributing to a distinct identiy/cultural existence.

Finally could you explain how your statement that the majority of jews practiced a religion addresses and contradicts any of the mass of arguments that i put forward in my above post?

Reuben

Even if there are secular distinctions of the European Jewry, it is a fact the the only reasons such distinctions existed, the only reason the Jewry existed was because at one time they all practised the same religion. The formed such a sergregation in order preserve thier entire culture, which is founded on a shared religious belief. Whether they have abandonded that religious belief over time, still does not negate the fact that they distinquish themselves using charecteristics or practises rooted in their religous traditon.

My main argument was that the creation of Israel was a complete act of barbarity, and continues to be. A state was established for the Jewish people, (a religious group) and creating that state displaced thousands of people from their homes, and as the state expands the displacement continues. No state should ever be created for any religous people, and imposed upon land already inhabited.


Pakistan has the islamic moon and star on it. That doesn't mean it's only for muslims

Yeah it does, Pakistan was created by Muslim Indians who wanted thier own homeland, seperate from the Hindu majority. Pakistans population is 97% muslim, 3 % "other" (mostly Christian and Hindu sects)

[Snitza]

Nor do they advocate taking over the world

"The rightful land of Israel stretches from the farthest bank of the Nile to the Euphrates" -David Ben-Gurion, founder of Israel(paraphrased)

Maybe not the world, but a damn good portion of the entire middle east! According to Israel's father, the Zionists should be controlling half of Egypt, and all of the land into about half of Iraq.

And while not being such a "fundamentalist" kind of government, the Israelis have always been racist and nationalistic. Jews have first priority to get asylum into Israel; in fact, I do believe the government will grant asylum to any Jew, with no questions asked. Muslims and Christians, of course...that's another thing.

The Jewish-American gangster, Meyer Lansky, was a crime lord and murderer. The state of Israel gave him full asylum and protected him from the US feds.


A state was established for the Jewish people, (a religious group)

While technically true, we should all recognize and understand that Israel never enforced religious laws on its citizens; in fact, many religious Jews are against the state of Israel even EXISTING.

Of course, zionists love to tell you that if you're anti-zionist, you're anti-semetic. How lovely and logical that is!

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 11:39 PM

Anyway as i said i do not know what proportion was religious.However even if we assume this to be the case I do not see that this validates your initial claims that 'the only thing "seperating" a European Jew, from just another European is thier religous backround or religion' and that 'the only thing "seperating" a European Jew, from just another European is thier religous backround or religion'. Simply stating that the majority of jews were religious does not negate the fact that their were cultural and linguistic factors - which regardless of oriigin were secular in character - holding jews together and cotnributing to a distinct identiy/cultural existence.

Finally could you explain how your statement that the majority of jews practiced a religion addresses and contradicts any of the mass of arguments that i put forward in my above post?

Reuben

Even if there are secular distinctions of the European Jewry, it is a fact the the only reasons such distinctions existed, the only reason the Jewry existed was because at one time they all practised the same religion. The formed such a sergregation in order preserve thier entire culture, which is founded on a shared religious belief. Whether they have abandonded that religious belief over time, still does not negate the fact that they distinquish themselves using charecteristics or practises rooted in their religous traditon.

My main argument was that the creation of Israel was a complete act of barbarity, and continues to be. A state was established for the Jewish people, (a religious group) and creating that state displaced thousands of people from their homes, and as the state expands the displacement continues. No state should ever be created for any religous people, and imposed upon land already inhabited.


Pakistan has the islamic moon and star on it. That doesn't mean it's only for muslims

Yeah it does, Pakistan was created by Muslim Indians who wanted thier own homeland, seperate from the Hindu majority. Pakistans population is 97% muslim, 3 % "other" (mostly Christian and Hindu sects)
then why aren't you moaning about pakistan?

[viva le revolution]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 21 2005, 10:54 AM

then why aren't you moaning about pakistan?
Who ever said anything about displacing anyone? I am simply stating that the "state" of israel only for jews should be demolished. The jews should continue living there alongwith Palestinians. Noone has the right to kick any of them out. So to assume the destruction of the state of israel is the same as physically expelling the jews is absurd. The only reason the politicians use this arguement is because the demographically, the palestinians have a much higher rate of growth. but that alone is no justification for excluding them!
divisions based on religion exist everywhere. In Pakistan, the muslims are the vast majority hence the flag.
In india, nationally another name for it in common use is "hindustan" this term was used even by Gandhi, meaning "land of the hindus".
Even the european union is composed primarily of christian states. why do you think there is such a fuss about admitting Turkey into the EU.
so to single out a few countries is absurd when even the most developed of countries are often the most dangerous because everything is subtle.

[herr_Nosferatu]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 05:30 AM
The Jewish-American gangster, Meyer Lansky, was a crime lord and murderer. The state of Israel gave him full asylum and protected him from the US feds.


About that Lansky incident, according to Wiki, he did indeed fled to Israel, but was shortly apprehended thereafter (three years, again according to Wikipedia) and sent back to the U.S. to serve time in jail...

So to say Israel gave "full asylum" to this thug is really quite misleading.

------

About that whole deal of a state for jews only, I'm with you all the way on that. They shouldn't restrict non-jews from imigrating to the land.

The only problem is that anti-semitism is so fundamentally anchored in people's psyche that in order to prevent terrorist actions, they mainly choose to allow jewish citizens to become israelis, but not only jews, some christians can and do imigrate to Israel... I know its a damn double standard, that this practice should be condemned, but so should be anti-semitism... I rarely see anyone do anything about that, even today 60 years to the year after WWII and despite the holocaust.

And this drives me nuts... How many million people have to be killed in order for the world to stand out say something about it ?

I recently saw Hotel Rwanda, and to see such barbaric violence and to realise that the world, just like the world of the early 1940's, was just as passive and ignorant as it was, is just as much a crime against humanity as were the murders themselves.

Should the Utus and Tutsis live together in peace ? fuck yeah...!

They have everything to make their plight end, but their stinkin' nationalistic pride prevents that from evolving...

How the fuck can we all walk proudly, live normal, healthy lives when somewhere else on this forsaken world someone dies of an injustice and violent act...????

Now, I'd love to see the day where palestinians be allowed back to their land, but here's the tricky part; how can the Israeli government, in good conscience for its own citizens, allow that to happen when you have a dozen millitant (terrorist?) groups advocating the blood of every jewish person living in their paths; hamas, islamic jihad... ect...????

People who truly want to see the murder of palestinians end should stand out and denounce these thugs... They have become useless, undermining the cause for a peaceful resolution, and are taking the whole dream of a Palestinian return straight to hell.

[viva le revolution]

You can't really blame them for resorting to violence. The peace process was not torpedoed to hell because of palestinian voilence,no, the real reason is because the so-called mediator in the issue officially toes Israel's line and the Jewish lobby in the U.S is very strong. The Arab governments on the other hand are too complascent to the U.S and too captivated by oil money to seriously help the Palestinians and take a direct stand against Israel, save for occasional lip service. The end result is that the Palestinians feel isolated and insecure.
The second reason for palestinians resorting to violence is that even in times of peace, the peace process is virtually stagnant.
The third is that after the success of Lebanon's Hezbollah in expelling the IDF from Lebanon, Violent resistance seems like a viable and sole option left for the Palestinians.

[Intifada]

herr_Nosferatu


I'd love to see the day where palestinians be allowed back to their land, but here's the tricky part; how can the Israeli government, in good conscience for its own citizens, allow that to happen when you have a dozen millitant (terrorist?) groups advocating the blood of every jewish person living in their paths; hamas, islamic jihad... ect...????


You act as if the Palestinians must somehow prove themselves worthy of gaining their inalienable right to return to their homeland. The fact is that Israel, like any other nation, has no right, whatsoever, to illegally occupy another people's land and violate their human rights.

The lack of Israeli security is born of the lack of Palestinian freedom. Israel will have security only after the end of occupation, not before. Once Israel and the rest of the world understand this fundamental truth, the way forward becomes clear: End the occupation, allow the Palestinians to live in freedom and let the independent and equal neighbors of Israel and Palestine negotiate a peaceful future with close economic and cultural ties.
-- Marwan Barghouti

It is the illegal occupation of Palestinian land that is giving birth to extremism amongst sections of Palestinian society. Israel's continued atrocities have made the Palestinians hopeless, angry and miserable. The terrorist acts of the Palestinian people, such as suicide bombings, are the actions of a desperate people. That desperation is born out of the illegal occupation, and the inhuman conditions in which the Palestinian people are forced to live.

The nature of a struggle is defined by the nature of the oppressor.

As long as Israel's brutal policies against the Palestinians continue, there will be no peace. Peace cannot come without justice for the Paestinians.


People who truly want to see the murder of palestinians end should stand out and denounce these thugs...

They do.

The problem is, the pro-Israel entity cannot come to understand that the illegal occupation of Palestinian land is the root cause of all the problems in the troubled region.


They have become useless, undermining the cause for a peaceful resolution, and are taking the whole dream of a Palestinian return straight to hell.

End the occupation, and the resistance/terrorism will end.

[MKS]

then why aren't you moaning about pakistan?

Pakistan was created in already existing Muslim dominated area, it was just carved off the Indian sub-continent, unlike Israel which displaced thousands by force.

[herr_Nosferatu]

Good reply Intifada... I can't disagree with that... I know that I do seem to want the palestinians prove themselves and I don't mean that... I know they are strong, able and intelligent people. I'm just scared for everyone, palestinians and israelis alike...

I also can understand that remarkable phrase you said: The nature of a struggle is defined by the nature of the oppressor.

It puts everything into perspective...

All I really want is peace for everyone... It would be a change well felt for these brothers and sisters... They are so alike, I simply can't fathom why such violence has risen so much in their history.... I guess we have the British mandate to thank for that one..... yet again !

Anyways, lets continue hoping the ceasefire stands still as long as possible...

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 05:30 AM

Nor do they advocate taking over the world

"The rightful land of Israel stretches from the farthest bank of the Nile to the Euphrates" -David Ben-Gurion, founder of Israel(paraphrased)

Maybe not the world, but a damn good portion of the entire middle east! According to Israel's father, the Zionists should be controlling half of Egypt, and all of the land into about half of Iraq.

And while not being such a "fundamentalist" kind of government, the Israelis have always been racist and nationalistic. Jews have first priority to get asylum into Israel; in fact, I do believe the government will grant asylum to any Jew, with no questions asked. Muslims and Christians, of course...that's another thing.

The Jewish-American gangster, Meyer Lansky, was a crime lord and murderer. The state of Israel gave him full asylum and protected him from the US feds.
I don't believe most of the modern Zionists believe that Israel should strech from the Nile to Iraq.

Anyway, were you aware that although Arabs are second-class citizens in Israel, Jordan does not even let Jews live in the country? And like any other country, Israel shouldn't exist, but this means a Palestinian state shouldn't exist, either.

Like i've said before, this site pays to much fucking attention to this issue! I am extremely interested in this topic, but i'm not going to obsess about it.

[Shaun Goldstein]

I've written an opinion piece on this very subject. I am saddened to see anti-Israel sentiment among such bright thinkers.

It sickens me to see even the best and brightest to decry Israel as a state of oppression, where innocent people are sent to be tortured. This is not the case. Israel has the best human rights record of any nation, as the Jews are humble people and do not wish to anger G-D by disobeying his humane, merciful laws. Anyone who speaks otherwise is a serpent, a deceiver, a betrayer, a liar: he speaks with a tongue of wanting, a tongue of jealousy, or a tongue of manipulation. But always he speaks with the tongue of bigotry. To hate Israel is to hate it's people, for Israel is not just a country but the concentration of all Jews; the collective of all those who witnessed upon Mt. Sinai. Israel is not just a land in the desert, my friends. Israel is the Jewish people.

When you mock Israel, you unconsciously malign the Jewish people. You may think, upon ready thought, that you hate Israel for it's treatment of the Palestinian people (which I will discuss in a moment), but you do not; you hate Israel because you are Anti-Semitic. Why does this Anti-Semitism take root? One reason is that Christians see Jesus as being crucified by the Jews. But who sent Jesus to death? Pontius Pilate: a white male. Who crucified Jesus? The Romans--white men. Christians, ironically enough, misdirect their hate to the Jews, when it is them who themselves they should be hating for crucifying Christ! Centuries of this defamation have darkened the plight of the Jewish people, but there is no hate towards the gentiles as Jews are here to be guiding people, not rodents of revenge. Another fact is that Jews are, traditionally, very successful people. I believe this is undeniable; Jews have a natural appetite for success, and can be found everywhere in the arts and sciences. Jealousy erupts from this, and racists hate the innocent Jew because of individual shortcomings. Many will not be fully aware of these feelings, but it is important to understand that anti-Israel sentiment spawns from envy.

Israel, as you know, is occupied by a foreign people known as the Palestinians. These people want Israel to hand over it's land through devious, uncouth methods of blowing small children up and raping orthodox Jewish women. This is intolerable. Of course Israel will strike back--the Jews are not a passive people! Children--young children--are destroyed by the Palestinian people often, and the peaceful Jewish people live in fear of the next attack. Any footage of Jewish atrocities is taken out of context by bigoted sources wishing to spread anti-Semitic sentiment. Israel is a friend of the world's, and has helped the United States of America see the cruelty of the Saddam regime and the terrorism of the Afghan people by lobbying for war against these malevolent worms. With these dictator-states gone, democracy reigns free in Arabic lands for the first time.

Jews are good people: I should know, as I am one of them. Every time I hear plebeian speech such as, "We need to stop supporting Israel-- them Jewish people, Marge. They ain't like us, not at all." I feel stereotyped; I know I am a sensitive human being just like you people of European descent. When derogative remarks are made against my people I feel my kindness is undeserving. But this is a transient feeling, natural in all humans. I quickly come to my senses and understand that if the uneducated are having envy against Jews, I must treat them the way I want to be treated and perhaps show them the light, the light that shines upon the Jewish people and radiates our love and our essence which is none to dissimilar to yours. Israel and the Jewish people are inseparable; Israel's borders may come and go, but never our heart and soul.

[Phalanx]

Look, several people on this board are Jewish (including me), but we can see that Israel has its faults. Namely, the Palestinians aren't attacking Israel for no apparent reason. Israel does have its faults, and i'm pretty sure it doesn't have the best human rights record. I'm assuming that goes to Norway or Canada. And to mock Israel could be interperted as anti-semitism, but to mock its government is exercising our rights as humans. Us Jews are smart, and i believe we can find a better way tro peace instead of blowing up Palestinian children, even if some extremists may do it to us.

[MKS]

When you mock Israel, you unconsciously malign the Jewish people. You may think, upon ready thought, that you hate Israel for it's treatment of the Palestinian people (which I will discuss in a moment), but you do not; you hate Israel because you are Anti-Semitic. Why does this Anti-Semitism take root? One reason is that Christians see Jesus as being crucified by the Jews. But who sent Jesus to death? Pontius Pilate: a white male. Who crucified Jesus? The Romans--white men. Christians, ironically enough, misdirect their hate to the Jews, when it is them who themselves they should be hating for crucifying Christ! Centuries of this defamation have darkened the plight of the Jewish people, but there is no hate towards the gentiles as Jews are here to be guiding people, not rodents of revenge. Another fact is that Jews are, traditionally, very successful people. I believe this is undeniable; Jews have a natural appetite for success, and can be found everywhere in the arts and sciences. Jealousy erupts from this, and racists hate the innocent Jew because of individual shortcomings. Many will not be fully aware of these feelings, but it is important to understand that anti-Israel sentiment spawns from envy.
Quote from Shaun Goldstein

Israel is a nation that usurped a land that did not belong to them, it continues to destory the homes of people who have legitmate claims to the land, because they live there, and have lived there for years. I do not intentionaly malign the Jewish people, but I cannot stand silent when such injustice is being perpertrated in the name of religion, nationalism, or for any other reason. I dont like Israel for the same reason I dont like America, or any nation that uses force and violence to consume land. Calling people who are against Israel anti-semites is wrong, I am all for the Jewish people sharing a nation with the Muslim and Christian Arabs (palestinans). I have nothing against the Jewish religion and culture.
How could the Jewish people who themselves suffered from diaspora and explusions, do the same thing to another "race" of people?



Israel, as you know, is occupied by a foreign people known as the Palestinians

Palestine is occupied by a foreign people called the Israelis. Palestine existed before Israel, the Arabs lived in the region long before the Israelis, long before it was ever called Palestine.


These people want Israel to hand over it's land through devious, uncouth methods of blowing small children up and raping orthodox Jewish women

The Israelis are guilty of the same crimes, but they are more at fault since the intiated the occupation, and initiated the violence. Israelis always use the excuse of "self defense" which is ridiculous. Like the Americans "defending" themselves from Indian attacks.


Any footage of Jewish atrocities is taken out of context by bigoted sources wishing to spread anti-Semitic sentiment

The fact that there is footage of Israeli atrocites is horrible. The fact that you said it was taken out of context is totally absurd. I think most of the people that show the footage are doing so to demostrate the brutal tactics of the Israeli government. (They would do the same thing if they were American atrocities, Japanese, English etc). Also there is plenty of footage of Muslim atrcoities, would you say the people who show these images are anti-muslim?



Jews are good people: I should know, as I am one of them. Every time I hear plebeian speech such as, "We need to stop supporting Israel-- them Jewish people, Marge. They ain't like us, not at all." I feel stereotyped; I know I am a sensitive human being just like you people of European descent. When derogative remarks are made against my people I feel my kindness is undeserving. But this is a transient feeling, natural in all humans. I quickly come to my senses and understand that if the uneducated are having envy against Jews, I must treat them the way I want to be treated and perhaps show them the light, the light that shines upon the Jewish people and radiates our love and our essence which is none to dissimilar to yours.

Again, I think you confuse legitimate feelings about the brutality and illegitmacy of the Israeli state, with anti-Jewish sentiment. It is not because the people who do these things are Jewish that makes them bad, it is the bad things that I have a problem with. If some Muslims occupied a part of Europe or Asia (like Israel did), I would also speak out against it.

It seems that you argue that Israel has some "divine" right to the land, which as an athiest, I strongly disagree with any people claiming a divine right to anyting. Most American support Israel, because Israel fights the "evil" muslims. The Palestinans are the people that truly suffer at the hand of Israel, their homes are being destoryed, there whole existance depends on the will of another nation. That is never right and can never be justified.

[Intifada]

herr_Nosferatu


I know that I do seem to want the palestinians prove themselves and I don't mean that... I know they are strong, able and intelligent people. I'm just scared for everyone, palestinians and israelis alike...


I can understand your feelings, comrade.


Anyways, lets continue hoping the ceasefire stands still as long as possible...

It was broken by Israel soon after it was declared, unfortunately.

PS: The avatar you use is anti-communist.

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 11:05 PM

Israel, as you know, is occupied by a foreign people known as the Palestinians

Palestine is occupied by a foreign people called the Israelis. Palestine existed before Israel, the Arabs lived in the region long before the Israelis, long before it was ever called Palestine.

The fact that there is footage of Israeli atrocites is horrible. The fact that you said it was taken out of context is totally absurd. I think most of the people that show the footage are doing so to demostrate the brutal tactics of the Israeli government. (They would do the same thing if they were American atrocities, Japanese, English etc). Also there is plenty of footage of Muslim atrcoities, would you say the people who show these images are anti-muslim?

NEITHER people are 'foreign'. Most of the Israelis have been born in Israel. That to me makes them officially local.

However, i do think that many people do take the offenses of Israel out of context simply because they are Jews. I'm not saying many people do this, but there is a few people who hide under 'anti-zionist' when they really mean 'anti-semitic'. People can easliy be one and not the other.

[viva le revolution]

Exactly! They are children of the same soil! That's whats sad that both sides succumb so easily to politicians and religious-fundamentalists.

[redstar2000]

Shaun Goldstein's post in this forum is "on the edge" of being unacceptable here...it approaches "Jewish supremacism".

Item: Another fact is that Jews are, traditionally, very successful people. I believe this is undeniable; Jews have a natural appetite for success, and can be found everywhere in the arts and sciences.

How does this differ from Nazi claims that Germans "are naturally a people of culture"?

Item: These people want Israel to hand over its land through devious, uncouth methods of blowing small children up and raping orthodox Jewish women.

How does this differ from the anti-semitic pornography in Der Sturmer about Jews conspiring to rape Aryan women?

Item: Jews are good people: I should know, as I am one of them.

The Germans said the same thing...as does everyone. No one says "hey, my ethnic-cultural group are a bunch of jerks who need to be wiped out".

Nearly all ordinary people in every ethnic/cultural group are decent...when they are allowed to be.

Item: ...and perhaps show them the light, the light that shines upon the Jewish people and radiates our love...

There was an article in the German media in the late 1930s that lamented the "unending self-sacrifice of the German people in bringing culture and civilization to the less capable".

-------------------------------

It's ok on this board to deny history, refuse to acknowledge well-documented evidence, pontificate on matters about which you know little or nothing, etc.

But some things are "not ok" here...and any claims of ethnic/cultural "natural superiority" fall into that category.

The suggestion that people opposed to the Israeli government's establishment of an "apartheid society" are deeply motivated by "envy of the Jews" is insulting.

And is not likely to be tolerated very long.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Shaun Goldstein]

Shaun Goldstein's post in this forum is "on the edge" of being unacceptable here...it approaches "Jewish supremacism".


Nonsense. I believe in the equality of all peoples and cultures.


How does this differ from Nazi claims that Germans "are naturally a people of culture"?

I don't understand the connection with Nazi Germany. But it is true Jews are very successful in society; 85% of college-age Jews are in college, for example.


How does this differ from the anti-semitic pornography in Der Sturmer about Jews conspiring to rape Aryan women?

That was false propaganda. Do you deny that there are many suicide bombings and rapings by Palestinians?



There was an article in the German media in the late 1930s that lamented the "unending self-sacrifice of the German people in bringing culture and civilization to the less capable".

When did I say that others are less capable? I'm 100% an egalitarian.



The suggestion that people opposed to the Israeli government's establishment of an "apartheid society" are deeply motivated by "envy of the Jews" is insulting.

Israel allows immigration; there are many Russian immigrants in Israel, for instance. One was rightfully arrested for being a nazi a few weeks ago.

.

I feel very insulted to being compared by nazis, the people that killed six million Jews in the Holocaust.

[leftist manson]

viva le revolution, i bet you are from lahore . by the way , one of your stalwarts from lahore , tariq ali , was here in vancouver , canada. he had a few comments regarding zionism
is there a movement going on in pakistan , some person on this site posted something regarding manzoor ahmed ( a trotskyite) "s group

[Intifada]

Do you deny that there are many suicide bombings and rapings by Palestinians?


Do you deny that Palestinian terrorism/resistance is the direct result of Israeli oppression through the illegal occupation?


Israel allows immigration; there are many Russian immigrants in Israel, for instance. One was rightfully arrested for being a nazi a few weeks ago.


Do you deny that Arabs living in Israel are treated as second-class untermenschen?

It is a shame that the Jewish-Zionists ruling the state of Israel have forgotten their troubled past so quickly.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Shaun Goldstein
But it is true Jews are very successful in society; 85% of college-age Jews are in college, for example.


Do you deny that there are many...rapings by Palestinians?

In other words, German supremacist propaganda was false while yours is true, right?

By the way, I've never heard of even one Jewish woman in Israel being raped by a Palestinian man. I'm sure it's happened...just as I'm sure that Jewish men have raped Palestinian women.

This really isn't about rape.

It's about a society that is rigidly segregated and oppressive.


Israel allows immigration; there are many Russian immigrants in Israel, for instance.

Israel wants all the Jews in the world to emigrate to Israel...no one else is welcome.


I feel very insulted to being compared by nazis, the people that killed six million Jews in the Holocaust.

Then stop talking like one!

When you use language like this...


Anyone who speaks otherwise is a serpent, a deceiver, a betrayer, a liar: he speaks with a tongue of wanting, a tongue of jealousy, or a tongue of manipulation. But always he speaks with the tongue of bigotry.

...what do you expect people to think?

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

PS: And about those suicide bombers: why doesn't Israel furnish the Palestinians with tanks, helicopters, and jets? I'm sure they'd give up suicide bombings if they had better weapons to fight with. :lol:

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 10:15 PM

then why aren't you moaning about pakistan?

Pakistan was created in already existing Muslim dominated area, it was just carved off the Indian sub-continent, unlike Israel which displaced thousands by force.
Ok, i can accept that, but my point is that both people are there NOW and as such should both have homelands, heopefully eventually a united worers' state will form, but that is a long way off.

[lebanese-revolutionist]

what makedm e laugh about israeli's is calling us anti-semitism....well what r u we? we are semitism , so can we be anti us ???? :blink:

[lebanese-revolutionist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 05:27 PM

Do you deny that there are many suicide bombings and rapings by Palestinians?


Do you deny that Palestinian terrorism/resistance is the direct result of Israeli oppression through the illegal occupation?


Israel allows immigration; there are many Russian immigrants in Israel, for instance. One was rightfully arrested for being a nazi a few weeks ago.


Do you deny that Arabs living in Israel are treated as second-class untermenschen?

It is a shame that the Jewish-Zionists ruling the state of Israel have forgotten their troubled past so quickly.
2nd CLASS !!!!! comrade say 3rd or even 4th CLASS.

[Intifada]

2nd CLASS !!!!! comrade say 3rd or even 4th CLASS.

You are right.

I did mention that they were treated like untermenschen.


what makedm e laugh about israeli's is calling us anti-semitism....well what r u we? we are semitism , so can we be anti us ????

Exactly.

Being anti-semitic would mean that we also hate the Palestinian people.

http://www.wasuvi.com/MT/archives/images/_40339163_afpvienna300.jpg

Is that Jew anti-semitic/jewish?

[viva le revolution]

Originally posted by leftist [email protected] 22 2005, 05:53 AM
viva le revolution, i bet you are from lahore . by the way , one of your stalwarts from lahore , tariq ali , was here in vancouver , canada. he had a few comments regarding zionism
is there a movement going on in pakistan , some person on this site posted something regarding manzoor ahmed ( a trotskyite) "s group
Yes i am from Lahore. And to answer your question, yes there is a movement called the "struggle" going on here in Pakistan. However they are not a trotskyites group, there a vast mixture of socialists,mostly marxist-leninist.
And i am proud to say that i too play a part in this movement.