America:hypocrits

[Vulkan]

Before I start ranting, Id just like to say that i am in no way belittling the suffering caused by 9-11 and do not intend on upsetting any americans. BUT

I lived in the states for 4 years, in that time I was asked on many occasions to donate money to the Irish Republican Army. Now, these housewives that were collecting money for the IRA were also allowed to use churches and villaige halls for their fundraisers. I had to put up with this while the IRA were placing bombs in crowded areas of London. Now the Taliban attack america on their own soil, islamic accounts are closed, fundraising is forbidden and the world is expected to help smite americas enemies.

I ask you: Did america not get a taste of its own medicine?

(Edited by Vulkan at 9:41 pm on Sep. 13, 2002)

[RedCeltic]

1) The Taliban did not attack America, it refused to hand over Al Qalada. ( the group that did)

2) Do not confuse the IRA with the REAL IRA. The IRA hasn't bombed anything for awile now. Plus, the REAL IRA according to the FBI is considered to be a Terrorist group. Evidence? Irish Nationals have been detained without charge or evidence, for fear that by vertue of being Irish, they may be also terrorists.

3) The fact that some "housewives" support Northern Aid, has little to do with terrorism. Funding the IRA is ilegal in the United States. However, it's not ilegal to fund Northern Aid, which helps harbor IRA members.



(Edited by RedCeltic at 4:49 pm on Sep. 13, 2002)

[hawarameen]

"3) The fact that some "housewives" support Northern Aid, has little to do with terrorism. Funding the IRA is ilegal in the United States. However, it's not ilegal to fund Northern Aid, which helps harbor IRA members."

this is the same as supporting the IRA. most nations ban terrorist organisations and those that support them, especially in such an abvious case as Northern Aid.

the real IRA was formed when the IRA stopped bombing things, the group disagreed with the IRA's new policy. any funding which came from america (this by the way is widely accepted) went to the IRA which at the time was bombing placesin uk.

[RedCeltic]

* Shruggs * So I've given money to "terrorists." I'd probobly send money to the FZLN & EZLN If I was sure where to send the money. (and had enough to go around.)


Depends on who you agree with I suppose.

And, not that it makes it right, but the US Government has done it's own fair share of supporting Terrorst groups. Including Osama.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 5:19 pm on Sep. 13, 2002)

[hawarameen]

this may be contraversial but you should ask the charity for your money back!!!

LOL

[RedCeltic]

I wouldn't do that.

[ShootFromTheHip]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 11:15 pm on Sep. 13, 2002
*



And, not that it makes it right, but the US Government has done it's own fair share of supporting Terrorst groups. Including Osama.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 5:19 pm on Sep. 13, 2002)


Hell yes. The U.$. has supported terrorist groups. Hell, they went to the Muslim Brotherhood and supplied money, arms, and training...THEY created the monster.

How many corrupt governments has the U.$ supported? lots. The U.$ provided weaponry for a certain corrupt leader/ruler of a country, which oppressed it's own people. Then--when the people began to protest, the U.$.A claimed that they were protesting agaisnt 'democracy'!! But, in fact, the people were actually protesting the U/$'s involvement in their oppression.

Today I was listening to a radio program someone asked the question, regarding 9/11: "Is it the Middle East or the West?" I say it's the U.$'s involvement in the Middle East.

[pastradamus]

Seriously,you guys shut the fuck up please.The only one here with any idea of what their talking bout is RC,you guys arent Irish so fuck off.Cuz ye dont know shit.

[RedCeltic]

They obviously know nothing about Noraid, nor Irish & Irish-Americans Pa..

This following statement is taken from Northern Aid's website.

Irish Northern Aid is a nonprofit American organization that provides support for the Irish Republican movement through political action and educational outreach, while providing financial assistance to the families of those imprisoned or killed for their political beliefs. An all-volunteer organization with local units throughout the country, INA works to bring about a united and democratic Ireland, independent and free.

Irish Northern Aid continues to support the struggle for a united Ireland and works with the Republican movement in Ireland to help former political prisoners. Through Coiste na n-Iarchimí (The Ex-Prisoners Coordinating Committee), we provide financial support for organizations that assist ex-POWs and their families with personal, family and career counseling, job training and support in fighting the social and economic discrimination they face because of their status as veterans. We continue to assist the families of current Republican political prisoners, as well as, the families of volunteers who have died for their country.

[Socialmalfunction]

yeah i have been wondering what happend with the whole IRA thing... so what did happen? im pretty sure i asked this question before but dont remember where i asked it. and dammit if i had money somewhere (any amount of money that was more than a dollar 50) i would send it to the INA. but i was wondering if anyone here knows where i can find books on irish history and all that. i've always been interested in it but dont know where to look. so please help. :D

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from sociallmalfunction on 10:26 pm on Sep. 13, 2002
yeah i have been wondering what happend with the whole IRA thing... so what did happen? im pretty sure i asked this question before but dont remember where i asked it. and dammit if i had money somewhere (any amount of money that was more than a dollar 50) i would send it to the INA. but i was wondering if anyone here knows where i can find books on irish history and all that. i've always been interested in it but dont know where to look. so please help. :D

Well here's a start comrade.

http://www.inac.org/homefront/books.html

http://www.sinnfeinbookshop.com/

(Edited by RedCeltic at 11:58 pm on Sep. 13, 2002)

[Vulkan]

redceltic, you make me sick.

[Vulkan]

and with regards to noraid i lifted this quote off their website

"(48%) of Irish are still living in 2002 under the British Government's heel of oppression in Northern Ireland subject to constant attacks from British Loyalist Terrorists"

heel of oppression? they are not oppressed

constant attacks from british loyalist terrorists?
well, they are fellow irishmen, and if they are considered terrorists then why should the ira be treated any differently?

now, im sorry im not going any further with this but as i have been writing this post i have read more and more of noraids website, and frankly there is too much shit to argue against.

i'll close by giving you a few funny quotes from the website, then go watch tv until i stop laughing my ass off.

British military power was used in the past when the British Government withheld food supporting the starvation of millions of Irish and took by force of arms, the land, livelihood, and churches of the people of Ireland.

"British Sponsored Terrorism" and the subversive arm of the British government openly killed Patrick Finucane and Rosemary Nelson who were attorneys acting in a lawful manner for human rights. The IRA was resurrected in the late 1960's precisely because of these on going attacks against undefended British Loyalist killings and maiming and bomb attacks on men, women and children in NI which is a daily experience..




Boycott whenever possible British products, stocks and companies. 9-11 created an atmosphere of national defense for both the US and the British. World Terrorism temporarily takes the eyes of the USA public off the British Governments support of Terrorism in NI.


and yet in amongst the mirth of bull shit, i find some useful advice

We only ask that you take time to check out the information links provided and become aware. The indifference to Terrorism in Northern Ireland is the acceptance of it. History no longer allows Americans to be indifferent to Terrorism in the world. Become Aware!

i do not read it as they intend though, nor should you

[BOZG]

FUCK NATIONALISM
FUCK THE IRA




"British Sponsored Terrorism" and the subversive arm of the British government openly killed Patrick Finucane and Rosemary Nelson who were attorneys acting in a lawful manner for human rights. The IRA was resurrected in the late 1960's precisely because of these on going attacks against undefended British Loyalist killings and maiming and bomb attacks on men, women and children in NI which is a daily experience..

Actually there's substantial evidence supporting this and about how the British army and one of the RUC's special branches* were giving information to loyalists to assassinate members of the IRA.

*I've forgotten their name



constant attacks from british loyalist terrorists?
well, they are fellow irishmen, and if they are considered terrorists then why should the ira be treated any differently?

Well for starters, the loyalists attack more on the basis of secterianism not on defending the union. For example one of the Shankhill Butchers during the 1970's became a loyalist on the sole basis that his name was catholic but he was protestant and growing up everyone would take the piss out of him so he had his revenge on catholics. I see the loyalists as the greater evil but both sides are idiotic in what they fight for.

[BOZG]

A little searching reveals that the Scottish Seperatist Group is the political front for the Scottish National Liberation Army. Does this remind anyone of an identical situation which Vulkan opposes?

If they're anything like the INLA, you are an idiot Vulkan.

(Edited by BornOfZapatasGuns at 11:30 am on Sep. 14, 2002)

[Conghaileach]

I could be wrong, but from what I've heard the SNLA lacks the socialist angle that makes the INLA different from all the IRAs.

[Conghaileach]

from Vulkan:
heel of oppression? they are not oppressed

constant attacks from british loyalist terrorists?
well, they are fellow irishmen, and if they are considered terrorists then why should the ira be treated any differently?

Loyalists are reactionary fascists who haunt "interface" areas looking for the first Catholic youth they can find and kill.

The IRA have a revolutionary goal of a united Ireland. Their methods may not be best, but name one revolution that didn't have bloodshed.


British military power was used in the past when the British Government withheld food supporting the starvation of millions of Irish and took by force of arms, the land, livelihood, and churches of the people of Ireland.

What's so funny about this? Nearly 2,000,000 million Irish people starved because of British capitalist policy in Ireland, enforced by its military.


"British Sponsored Terrorism" and the subversive arm of the British government openly killed Patrick Finucane and Rosemary Nelson who were attorneys acting in a lawful manner for human rights. The IRA was resurrected in the late 1960's precisely because of these on going attacks against undefended British Loyalist killings and maiming and bomb attacks on men, women and children in NI which is a daily experience..

These statements are also completely true.


We only ask that you take time to check out the information links provided and become aware. The indifference to Terrorism in Northern Ireland is the acceptance of it. History no longer allows Americans to be indifferent to Terrorism in the world. Become Aware!

The American revolutionaries were no angels; the IRA is the exact same.


Next time you think about posting, Vulkan, try getting a fucking clue first.

[Conghaileach]

And what experience do you have to claim that the nationalist people of the six counties are not oppressed?

[RedCeltic]

Volkan:

According to the Brittish Government, your Scottish National Liberation Army is also considered to be a terrorist group. Who's calling who a hypocritical?

hmmm maybe this thread would be best titled : "Scotland = Hypocrits"

Ultimatly Volkan, you're an idiot. You support a group who's goal is identical to the IRA and Northern Aid. Liberation from the Brittish Government. You point out that Northern Aid calls for boycotting Brittish Goods, yout your SSG's website calls for the same thing!

Yet somehow you don't see this. Somehow in your tinny little mind you have connected a group that fights for national liberation with a muslim fundementalist group, who's antagonistic goal is to create a holy war.

And than the funnyest thing about you yet... you claim that catholics in Northern Ireland don't deserve independance because you're willing to ignore that they are opressed...

.... yet you'll support the liberation of Scotland.... yet last time I was there didn't see bands of loyalists throwing pipe bombs into Scotch seperatist homes.




(Edited by RedCeltic at 9:42 am on Sep. 14, 2002)

[Vulkan]

lol


my whole identity was created to see how awake you guys were, the answer is not very.


the ssg is similar to the ira, hence its inclusion in my siggeh

you may also be interested to know the 'vulkan' was a codename for a fictional SS officer



cripples.

[RedCeltic]

Ha Ha good one. Here we all think your half assed, and you show that you're just all ass.

[Conghaileach]

Oh. Right. Good one. [sic]

[Wash Me]

Vulkan,
Not only that fundraising is forbidden but they have closed bank accounts belonging to people who don't have any connections with any Islamic regimes neither in Afghanistan and Palestine nor in any part of this world.
They closed a whole Islamic bank in Switzerland.
A lot of people's money just vanished
but where to?
To their own filthy pockets?
I don't know
but I'd like to know
By the way...
All this had happened BEFORE the 9-11 attacks

[Pinko]

Haha, this is funny. Scotland can't afford independence. The only real money spinner they have at the moment is North Sea Gas. If independence is achieved, Scottish waters will shrink according to their landmass and the drilling rigs will end up in international waters and drilling will stop.
However, the southern oil rigs are much closer to shore so England stands to lose a lot less in the way of resources.

To put it bluntly, if Scotland gained true independence, it would be boned!

[Vulkan]

pastoral farming, the fishing industry ect

but that isnt the point

you also failed to notice the title of the post :/

[Vladimir]

Wanker

[RedCeltic]

ditto. :)

[Valkyrie]

This has very little to do with most of the comments here.

I vehemently supported the IRA when they were at their most active. It filled me with glee everytime a bomb went off. One step closer we were toward a United Ireland, the end of partition and British Rule. When Sinn Fein step off course renouncing all their previous held beliefs, I felt totally betrayed. Traitors ALL! How could they do this? And how could they do it to the hunger strikers? The cause abandoned me, not me the cause. Luckily RIRA and CIRA stepped up to the plate to continue on. I had no preference between the two. Whoever would do the job, it was fine with me. Besides the RIRA was being endorsed by proxy by Bobby Sands, as his sister and brother-in-law were Chief of Staff.
It was easy to support them in blind belief... they ALWAYS called in their bombs. (as well as claim eachother's bombings to be their own) and well, if a few died, still, they were saving millions from oppression and colonial rule.

That was until I saw a photo after one of their bombings. There were body parts strewn all over the place, and they were the lucky ones. The others who were still alive, bloody and limbless. That was the background of the picture. In the forefront was a torso. No head, no limbs, just pretty much the chest down to the waist. After looking at that picture for some time.. I started to rethink my position of 'freedom at any cost.' I know there must be a better way than that.

[IHP]

thank you Paris.

I escaped to australia from belfast when i was a child, its a part of my life that i've shut out, but for many people who still live there it's a bloody horrible experience. A lot of my protestant and catholic friends feel the same.

just stop the killing and destruction! it's a waste of many good honest human lives.

[Valkyrie]

Yeah, IHP, Stop the killing and destruction everywhere. hopefully, you will be able to go back to Belfast one day to live. It's sad you have missed out on your cultural heritage first-hand.

[Conghaileach]

So, Paris, you denounce Sinn Fein because they gave up the struggle and sold out, and you denounce the RIRA and the CIRA because of the devastation their acts bring?

I understand what you're saying about preventing these pointless deaths, these slaughters, but the sad fact of life is that in wars innocent people get killed. Can you name and struggle or revolution in history when people didn't die? If it wasn't for the IRA, the Catholic people in the six counties would have been cleansed from the earth by loyalists.

[El Che]

ur right paris, killing is always wrong. There are better ways to fight.

[Valkyrie]

Yeah, El Che. I agree and it was an ephiphany for me as I was sympathetic and supporting ALL of it at one point.

CiaranB- I still belief in the Irish Republican's Armies (plural) cause. But, I have moved over to Brenden Hughes' position, which is that the IRA's have exhausted any constructive means in establishing their goal through armed struggle. It is not working. Nor is it having an impact as any means of resistance. All it is accomplishing is filling up Milltown Cemetary, with little economic damage to the UK interest at all. I wouldn't go so far as saying they should disarm their caches but, I think they even have come to realize the longer they use force, the longer they will retain status as a British colony. Believe me, I would love to see the Loyalists expatriate themselves to Great Britain since they love it so much, but as far as killing off their own on both sides of the fence, I think it is an effort that has finally run it's course. Really, war is not the answer and they of all people need another means to get to the end.

[Valkyrie]

Also, I forgot to say...... though I won't get into how deep my involvement pre-Good Friday Agreement, I can say I still renounce Sinn Fein's move in complying with the British government and forfeiting absenteism in the House of Commons. That I will always see as treacherous. Anyway, that's all I've got to say.

[IHP]

i understand what you mean ciaranB, but coming from the troubled area myself, after seeing such devastating things, and an overall sad feeling about one of the most beautiful countries in the world, i cant see any of the fighting getting us any closer to peace.

There has to be a system of avoidance somewhere, and we have to find. it is, of course, not that easy or else it would been found before such events as bloody sunday and such occured.

too many people have been taken in this ongoing struggle. i am from belfast, but by no means am i prot or catholic.

i am sympathetic to both sides, and i burn with anger every time i hear of a street brawl between groups of young men. This is not only bad because young men are fighting and throwing heavy objects that maim, but even worse is that young men are passionate about their side of the war, and are fighting the cause. this will be passed down to the next generation and so on.

i am only 18 myself. i left ireland young and i have never gone back even for a visit, too horrible are my memories.

soz everyone, i carry on a bit about this.

[Conghaileach]

from Paris:
CiaranB- I still belief in the Irish Republican's Armies (plural) cause. But, I have moved over to Brenden Hughes' position, which is that the IRA's have exhausted any constructive means in establishing their goal through armed struggle. It is not working.

I have to agree there. Brendan Hughes (one of my mate's uncles) is a very intelligent. He writes good articles for The Blanket.

[RedCeltic]

Taliban/IRA

Is still not a fair comparison regardless.

[Conghaileach]

I know someone who supports the IRA, Hamas, and Taliban. And he claims to be a socialist.