Would you support Taiwanese independence?

[El_Revolucionario]

Before you flame me, think about one thing. Those who support Taiwanese independence tend to be left-wing or "left-of-center", while those who support unification with china are usually "right-of-center".

[MKS]

I think it speaks to another larger question: Can we chose between the lesser of two evils? China is a horribly repressive nation, that seems to be inching towards un-hindered capitalism. Taiwain obviously is Capitalist and along comes all the exploitation and oppression that comes along with it.

I dont think Socialists/Communist should take a stance either way. Because either way is really bad for the workers.

[RedStarOverChina]

not exactly. The most famous Taiwanese writer/politician Lee Ao calls for reunification, while he is ultra-left.

on the other hand, much of those that are for independence support Japanese fascism and call for racial descrimination against mainlanders.

[redstar2000]

If Taiwan declares independence and China responds by launching an invasion, it is possible that the U.S. will intervene for its own reasons in the defense of Taiwan.

If that happens, then I think we (in the U.S.) have the obligation to oppose U.S. imperialism.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[El_Revolucionario]

But this news article shows that "Bush opposes Taiwan independence"

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/12/09/bush.china.ap/

[RedStarOverChina]

I dont think there is going to be a war. The separatists are losing ground as we speak. Even if they stay in power, they would think twice about selling their ideas too radically.

[Hiero]

If Taiwan does claim indepence and China invades, then the US will aid the Taiwanese over China. Also the US has stated and expects Australia to uphold the ANZUS alliance and be a prime player in support Taiwan.

[RedStarOverChina]

yes...that is, IF US actually would get involved(and Australia would be doing it against it's will). US would try to thwart the reunification process, but if it comes to war, its a different matter.

[MKS]

If that happens, then I think we (in the U.S.) have the obligation to oppose U.S. imperialism.

even if it means supporting a repressive Chinese regime that could in all likelihood become Imperialists themselves. I am always against US Imperialism, but China could end up being another Capitalist Imperialist power.

Shouldnt all Socialists and Communists support the best intrests of the workers?

[cormacobear]

Right of Self determination. We should support whoever is the peoples choice

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 10:50 PM

If that happens, then I think we (in the U.S.) have the obligation to oppose U.S. imperialism.

even if it means supporting a repressive Chinese regime that could in all likelihood become Imperialists themselves. I am always against US Imperialism, but China could end up being another Capitalist Imperialist power.

Shouldnt all Socialists and Communists support the best intrests of the workers?
In the present period, the "best interests" of the workers of the world are better served by the humiliating defeat of U.S. imperialism than by any other option.

The U.S. is the "fortress of world reaction". In the shadow of the American Empire, there is no place that is safe from the threat of massive destruction...and thus no place that can safely exercise any form of "self-determination".

I think China already is an imperialist country...but the threat from China is simply trivial compared to the global threat of U.S. imperialism.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Commie Girl]

In this day and age of unfettered U$ Imperialsim, there is an obligation to support anything that opposes the occupier, which is what the U$ would be doing/abetting.

[KrazyRabidSheep]

In general, I support any division of government.

When governing a smaller group of people, it is easier to look out for the needs, rights, etc. of those people.
Think about families. Is it easier to prepare food for a family of four, or a family of eight? Clothe? College?

Granted, that is what territories, provinces, states, etc. are for, but they only work so well.

The exception is if either:
1. The original government is much better for the people then a new government could be. (in which case it would be harder for the rebellion to take place)
2. The new government is created, more or less, by an outside power.

It's hard to tell how much the rest of the world is influencing the situation, but I'd have to lean to independance for Taiwan as of now.

[OleMarxco]

I'd support Taiwan's independence if it takes a true communist direction, but if the U.S. interferes I will become rather...unsure. Perhaps then it's more important to beat the hell out of America ;)

Plus, Bush is not against the independence of Taiwan...he's just too much of a weak-minded coward to take stance, and delibaretely says..."We oppose any change of the status quo from either of the sides of conflict (China and Taiwan)."

[RedAnarchist]

This is a tricky situation. On the one hand, do you support Taiwanese independance, and probably by proxy American imperialism?

Or do you support the status quo, and support the state capitalism of China?


The bigger monster is American imperialism, so i would not support Taiwanese independance.

[bolshevik butcher]

Surley it should be down to whatthe Taiwanese people want?

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 15 2005, 05:51 AM
Surely it should be down to what the Taiwanese people want?
I'm afraid that battle was lost...back in 1947 or so.

You see, even before the fascist-gangster regime of Chiang Kai-shek and his supporters were forced to flee the mainland, they had occupied Taiwan, and the first thing they did was crush a major uprising by the Taiwanese...with the customary massacre, of course.

It's problematical how many "real" Taiwanese are left now...they may be as rare as "real" Hawaiians.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[bolshevik butcher]

Red star aren't the people now in taiwan 'real' i mean my dad's english and my mums grandparents are ukranien so i'm not a 'real' scot, but wehn i'm 18 i'll still be able to vote.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Clinched Fist
Red star, aren't the people now in Taiwan 'real'?

Indeed they are...just not "real Taiwanese". They are, to the best of my knowledge, just as Chinese as the mainlanders now.

So the "nationalistic" argument for Taiwanese independence is very "weak" now...just as it was much "stronger" back in the 1940s when real Taiwanese dominated the island.

The same thing that happened to Taiwan has also happened in Tibet; at some point in the not-too-distant future, a majority of the population of Tibet will be Chinese...so that calls for an "independent Tibet" will become an anachronism.

Calling for self-determination for Tibet will sound as foolish as calling for self-determination for Glasgow. The same is now really true for Taiwan; there's no reasonable argument for why it should not be part of China now.


I mean my dad's English and my mum's grandparents are Ukrainian so I'm not a 'real' Scot, but when I'm 18, I'll still be able to vote.

This stuff gets "tricky" when you talk about individuals. Assuming you were "raised Scotch" (more or less), then I would say that you are a "real Scot"...your culture is Scottish, right?

In other words, this stuff is not "racial", it's social and cultural. If you suddenly moved to Canada, people there would think of you as a Scotsman...but if you had kids and raised them in Canada, they'd think of your kids as Canadian. If you raised your kids in Montreal in such a way as to immerse them in French Canadian culture and language, they might even be accepted as Québécois.

"Nations" are mutable...they change over time. Some disappear entirely...and sometimes new ones emerge.

There won't "always be an England".

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[bolshevik butcher]

red star doesn't that make this generation of taiwanese from taiwan? And some of my friends are muslms of pakistani origin, do they not count as bristish? My point is that if someone is livng somewhere and ar contributing to society then they should have the right to influence that society.

[viva le revolution]

Between America and China i would support Subtle Chinese diplomacy than overt American dominance and do not support Taiwan becoming yet another Capitalist American client state.

[viva le revolution]

Between America and China i would support Subtle Chinese diplomacy than overt American dominance and do not support Taiwan becoming yet another Capitalist American client state.
People take it for granted that Taiwan will become State capitalist however it should be noted that when Hong Kong went from British into Chinese hands, China was willing to compromise and adopt the one-state-two systems doctrine. This shows that the Chinese are more willing to compromise than the Yankees.
China is seen as a leader in south-east asia. Unification with the mainland would bolster it's security better as compared to being a lone capitalist state with an American base for it's security. This will only undermine it's sovreignity and give the Yankees another base to keep an eye on China. This is really what the imperialists want despite the public feigning of non-interest in change.

[Phalanx]

Hmm.. To support US-supported imperialism, or China-backed imperialism. I say let the two fight it out and drain themselves of power, so they don't have the chance to worry about other issues.

[patria grande]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 04:00 AM
Right of Self determination. We should support whoever is the peoples choice
I agree. We all know the role Taiwan plays in U.S geopolitical strategy, but if the majority of the people decided they want their independence who will have the right to say no? People's self-determination is a right we all have to recognize.

[viva le revolution]

True but a state that exists without foreign interference or catering for foreign geo-political strategy. I.E a state that only caters to it's people and it's own priorities without collusion in any imperialist world body such as NATO nor playing host to any foreign armed forces such as South Korea.
If however Taiwan decides to open up an american base or joins in a treaty with Nato to keep an eye on China or any other regional neighbour then no. Despite the wishes of the people. Let's get real the people's demand will be justified but if it's leadership is imperialist then the people will never be independant no matter if they fly their own flag or somebody else's.

[Phalanx]

What if the people of Taiwan decide to continue US influence in their country? This is highly unlikely, but i just want to see what people have to say.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Clinched_Fist
red star, doesn't that make this generation of Taiwanese from Taiwan?

By now, the current generation of Taiwanese are Chinese...no different in any significant way from the Chinese who live in Shanghai.


And some of my friends are Muslims of Pakistani origin, do they not count as British?

Well, ask yourself: do they speak with an English accent?

Have they assimilated into English culture over-all? If yes, then they are certainly "British"; if no, then they aren't...though their kids probably will be.

And don't forget, the definition of "British" can change if a very large number of Pakistanis were to move there...it's not something that "stands for all time".

Some folks find cultural changes that result from large population movements very distressing...but historically, it's happened many times and undoubtedly will happen many times in the future.


My point is that if someone is living somewhere and are contributing to society then they should have the right to influence that society.

They not only have the "right"...it will happen if the numbers are sufficient.

Or, if the newcomers arrive as conquerors. Taiwan was, after all, conquered by the mainland Chinese. Over the last half-century, the mainlanders have undoubtedly imposed their mainland Chinese culture on the native Taiwanese.

By this time, it probably makes no sense to speak of "Taiwan" as if it were in some significant cultural sense "different" from China.

And the political differences with China are decreasing as China becomes more capitalist...from a materialist standpoint, there's just not much to justify the idea of an "independent Taiwan".

And less with every passing year.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[SpeCtrE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 02:17 AM
I think it speaks to another larger question: Can we chose between the lesser of two evils? China is a horribly repressive nation, that seems to be inching towards un-hindered capitalism. Taiwain obviously is Capitalist and along comes all the exploitation and oppression that comes along with it.

I dont think Socialists/Communist should take a stance either way. Because either way is really bad for the workers.

I dont think Socialists/Communist should take a stance either way. Because either way is really bad for the workers.


I think the same way too... To side eitherway would be pretty darn reactionary.

[El_Revolucionario]

This is simply not a US vs. China issue. It's more complicated than that.

[bolshevik butcher]

I agree with the self detrmination, whatever you say about the people in taiwan they're there now. It's like israel, i think there should be a palistinean state but i dont wanna see israel pushed into the sea.

[El_Revolucionario]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 16 2005, 04:35 PM
I agree with the self detrmination, whatever you say about the people in taiwan they're there now. It's like israel, i think there should be a palistinean state but i dont wanna see israel pushed into the sea.
I agree.