Study group [Archive]

jcbn

15th May 2005, 22:05

New member here. I like the reading group idea.

Two suggestions:

1) Organize it around a relevant theme, example: "Imperialism, Racism, and Resistance," not just leftist readings in general.

2) Have each participant submit a work or two they'd like to read (an essay, an excerpt from a book, etc.) up to no more than say 30 or 40 pages.

Just some preliminary ideas! I'm currently reading Lenin's works on imperialism, so I'm looking for some discussion. :)

workersunity

15th May 2005, 23:19

Im reading capital right now but its a really good version, It may be a lot shorter than the original, but its volumes 1,2 and 3 put into one, because there are so many duplications and stuff, and the reading is pretty good, not boring either, if any wants to know ill tell you more about it.

The Feral Underclass

16th May 2005, 12:48

This idea is actually being discussed by the admins at the moment. It's a really good idea and one we hope we can start at this board.

anonymous_red

16th May 2005, 16:32

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 16 2005, 11:48 AM
This idea is actually being discussed by the admins at the moment. It's a really good idea and one we hope we can start at this board.
that's great. i praticipated in a reading group at school. a small group of us read a leftist book or excerpts and met once a month to discuss along with a couple of our professors. it is very enlightening and useful in the exchange of ideas.

guerillablack

16th May 2005, 18:21

Where you from?

anonymous_red

16th May 2005, 20:15

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 05:21 PM
Where you from?
tough question. i grew up near buffalo, went to college near hershey, and now i'll be moving to philly in june.

Sir Aunty Christ

17th May 2005, 11:52

Sure, sounds like a good idea. And I agree about arranging it around themes rather than general leftist material.

ComradeChris

17th May 2005, 18:43

Many of you mentioned depending on the reading they would be interested. To make it as inclusive as possible I was thinking only material that would be available to everyone on the net without a cost. I'm not that great at finding entire books online, so those who are more capable of doing such things would be an enormous service to the group.

Some of you mentioned chapters, that is probably the best way of doing it. This would lead to more people having read it, which would provide a greater in depth discussion.

I agree it doesn't necessarily have to be communist in nature, anti-imperialism/Americanism/etc. would be just fine.

Should we create a sub heading for this? Does anyone have any ideas or things interesting them to get this started?

Sir Aunty Christ

17th May 2005, 18:52

You can usually get whole books through the Marxists Internet Archive (marxists.org) and there are a lot of good links in the Learning forum.

Sir Aunty Christ

17th May 2005, 19:03

Which is this one. Sorry about that.

Konqwest

17th May 2005, 20:27

Id be down for this it would be really cool

workersunity

17th May 2005, 20:51

i woul recommend reading Looking backward by edward bellamy for starters

resisting arrest with violence

17th May 2005, 21:51

I'd be interested in it but that I'm reading 4 books at present and so to take up another book would be too much for me. I'm sure none of the books I'm currently reading will be on your list:

A People's History of the United States by Dr. Howard Zinn

The Odyssey by Homer

The Art of War by Sun Tzu

The Prince by Machiavelli (know your enemy!!!!!)

jcbn

18th May 2005, 01:57

Besides the Marxists Internet Archive and Marx2Mao, there are a lot of really good, contemporary essays in leftist journals like Monthly Review, International Socialist Review, New Left Review, and Science and Society. Many of them are available on the web.

Unless we want to do an "Intro to Marxism" group (in that case, the pamphlet Socialism: Utopian and Scientific by Engels might be best), I think we should stick to something directly relevant for the times we're living in today.

What current affairs are people most interested in? The occupation of Iraq? The situation in Palestine? The rise of the Left in Latin America? Global inequality and poverty? Something else? I think we should focus on the subject that generates the most interest and build a reading list around that, with essays, pamphlets, and book excerpts.

Let's do this.

anonymous_red

18th May 2005, 05:32

the occupation of iraq and the situation in palestine are the least interesting to me. the rise of the left in s. america and the effects/evolution of the global economy would be interesting topics.

Konqwest

18th May 2005, 17:03

So when will we begin?

SpeCtrE

18th May 2005, 20:00

well, How about starting one right here instead of going to Yahoo. The Admin Can send over the desired reading Material over the Email so that everyone gets it and then by the end of the week we would debate over it in a thread .

jcbn

18th May 2005, 22:27

the rise of the left in s. america and the effects/evolution of the global economy would be interesting topics.

I'm down with either of these.

workersunity

19th May 2005, 03:25

we should do something short, because someone said he was reading 4 books now, and im also reading a lot of books, Im reading rise and fall of the third reich, looking backward, and have a lot of other ones that i started. Im about 3/4 the way done with a peoples history of the US, and i got over christmans voices of a peoples history, I have read the Prince and what can i say hes a fascist

Sir Aunty Christ

19th May 2005, 10:26

Here's a suggestion (which knowing my luck someone's all ready thought of). Why don't the admins or whoever's in charge here set up a sub-forum for the study group to distinguish issues relating to that from other questions.

The Feral Underclass

19th May 2005, 11:18

It is a good idea, but yes, it's already been thought of :P

kirov78

19th May 2005, 13:44

I consider myself a new convert to Marxism......I'm EXTREMELY interested....because I'm new, I may be a tad more enthusiastic and doctrinaire, but you live and learn, eh?

workersunity

19th May 2005, 21:07

regardless, we are very glad to have more comrades aboard

ComradeChris

20th May 2005, 22:29

I'm reading Shake Hands with the Devil (a book depicting the futility of the UN in the Rwondan genocide) by Romeo Dallaire and Noam Chomsky's Hegemony or Survival; plus other books of non-political nature. But I'm not sure if these books are available online.

workersunity

20th May 2005, 23:31

I think we should read some political theory, hopefully marxist

cph_shawarma

24th May 2005, 10:13

How 'bout "What was the USSR?" by Aufheben? It's a bit deeper and requires a basic understanding of commodities and value, but seems to be a really good walk-through of different opinions on the USSR. It also contains Aufheben's own revelations on the subject.

ErikuSz -sXe-

24th May 2005, 12:03

I would like to participate in this studygroup, sounds good.
I suggest to start with 'What Is To Be Done?' by Vladimir Lenin or 'Dialectical and Historical Materialism' by Joseph Stalin. I am not the greatest Stalin-fan but I have to admit that this is a very good work, definitly worth studying and a good introduction into marxist philosofie.

Maybe it's a good idea to subdivide the works by chapters and study one chapter every week starting monday and discussing it collectively in the weekend in a special Topic.

Do ya'll agree?

ErikuSz -sXe-

25th May 2005, 23:15

nothing is happening comrades...

workersunity

26th May 2005, 03:35

stalin wasnt a marxist, we can sure read him though to find out how we shouldnt be

codyvo

26th May 2005, 03:51

Sounds interesting, I'm up for it, but I agree with Spectre we should start it here on revleft.

Zingu

26th May 2005, 04:13

I think if want to get into more high level Marxist things, "Marx's Concept of Man" by Erich Fromm is extremely interesting, which I am reading now. It goes into depth about the true, fundalmental nature of man's alienation from his true essence.

ErikuSz -sXe-

26th May 2005, 05:46

I think we've got enough material and suggestions to do something.
Should we vote on what writing to study first?

ErikuSz -sXe-

29th May 2005, 09:09

<_< I was afraid of this.
It turns out we are not going to do anything, aye comrades?

NovelGentry

29th May 2005, 18:38

I'll start a poll

NovelGentry

29th May 2005, 18:48

I had to stick it in chit chat cause it's the only place I could do a poll it seemed. Go vote there.

EDIT: here's a link
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=35889

RedStarOverChina

31st May 2005, 16:56

Where's the link for the study group? or is this it?

Edelweiss

31st May 2005, 17:01

Sorry about the long delay until us admins are really doing something about it.
Like TAT said, we where alraedy planning something like this even before the thread was started, so we are very willing to support you on this.
Our idea is to open a new forum for it. Every week or so, there would be a new "homework" to read a certain part of a writing which should be available freely on the Internet, and ideally could also be posted in that forum. After a week we would discuss that part of the writing than, and questions are being answered.

Unlike it has been suggested by some here, I think we should begin with basic Marxist and Anarchist writings like the Communist Manifesto, and go forward to more advanced stuff than, it's important we create it newbie friendly IMO.
So what else basic writings beside the Manifesto do you suggest to start with?

RedStarOverChina

31st May 2005, 17:04

Origin of the Family by Engels.

I read it a long time ago and consequently didnt understand it in a profound level.

Edelweiss

31st May 2005, 17:21

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 06:04 PM
Origin of the Family by Engels.

I read it a long time ago and consequently didnt understand it in a profound level.
Please remember, the work should cover the basics of Marxism. I haven't read "Origin of the Family", but I guess it's too specific.

RedStarOverChina

31st May 2005, 17:27

Origin of the Family is what i consider the soul of Marxist historic materialism...
so what do u have in mind?

Sir Aunty Christ

31st May 2005, 18:30

Up until now I've been ambivalent as to the workings of this board: I didn't really care what role the Commie Club played as it didn't affect me in anyway but I am starting to get a little concerned about the speed of decisionmaking. The Anarchist Tension did state that the prospect of a study group was being discussed but NovelGentry took it upon himself to set up a poll as the issue had been discussed at the length by the rank and file and he felt we should get a move on.

Malte, your main gripe seems to be that NovelGentry has gone over the heads of the Commie Club. How difficult would it have been to keep us informed how your discussions were coming on instead of informing us earlier on today what your plans were? Before NovelGentry had created the poll might've been better.

NovelGentry

31st May 2005, 19:23

Malte, your main gripe seems to be that NovelGentry has gone over the heads of the Commie Club. How difficult would it have been to keep us informed how your discussions were coming on instead of informing us earlier on today what your plans were? Before NovelGentry had created the poll might've been better.

I was told that the decision was not even in the commie club's hands. It was discussion amongst the admins, which would have been moved to the commie club for vote only after they were done.

Sir Aunty Christ

31st May 2005, 19:31

bureaucracy gone mad.

Edelweiss

31st May 2005, 20:03

I freely admit that we have been too slow on this one. Normally discisions are being made faster. Sorry about that. It was a coindidence anyway that the idea came up here as well, when we where already discussing it. The two things where not really connected. Us admins where already discussing the idea of study groups, and where working out the details, before introducing the idea to the community in the CC, which does not even mean that there would have been a vote on it. I don't see anything wrong with that.

I can even understand Gent took it upon himself, and he was right to do so. However, I would have preferred it if he just would have contacted one of the admins before making that poll. Not to "ask for permission" as Gent accused me of earlier today, but just to coordinate things better. He knew that we already had plans about it. It just would have been a logical step. He would have had all right to write one of the admins a PM kicking our ass to finally do something about it, but just starting that poll on his own was the wrong way IMO, especially in the Chit Chat forum. If he would have asked me, I even would have started a poll here in the Learning forum. In the end it is us admins who have to set up the study group, and I think it's not asked too much if we are involved in it as well.

codyvo

31st May 2005, 20:19

I agree Malte, I think we need a study forum now, I haven't been a part of this discussion for a few days so I don't know exactly what you and Novel Gentry are talking about, anyways my vote is for What is to be Done by V.I. Lenin, but I don't really have that strong of an opinion for any of the suggestions whatever you guys want I am willing to do, besides if the study group does well we'll probably read all of these books soon.

T_SP

31st May 2005, 20:27

I would like to see the study group come in, so would the wife, the thing is this has been blown out of proportion. The admins just deciding on it seems ridiculous, those who are not CC members/admins/mods are the ones more likely to benefit from it therefore it seems logical that it is they who vote on it. I'll wager that Gent was testing the water before confronting the Admin afterall what is the point in a study group if no-one is interested?
Also who would be the ultimate authority on deciphering the different texts? Who can actually give an un-biased view of what was meant by them? There does need to be some sort of moderation in there has this even been considered?

Edelweiss

31st May 2005, 20:57

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 09:27 PM
I would like to see the study group come in, so would the wife, the thing is this has been blown out of proportion. The admins just deciding on it seems ridiculous, those who are not CC members/admins/mods are the ones more likely to benefit from it therefore it seems logical that it is they who vote on it. I'll wager that Gent was testing the water before confronting the Admin afterall what is the point in a study group if no-one is interested?
Also who would be the ultimate authority on deciphering the different texts? Who can actually give an un-biased view of what was meant by them? There does need to be some sort of moderation in there has this even been considered?
T-SP, I don't know if you have read my posts, but us admins whwre discussing the idea even before this thread came up, after I have read this thead (admtingly too late), it wasn't the question anymore if we will set up a study group, the question was how! One of the questions indeed is the type of moderation, such questions should have been discussed before making a poll about what to read, just like discussing the technical details with admins.

An idea I had for the moderation would ask marxists.org for co-operation for example, so that some of their staff members would suggest what to read. If that would work out, I think that would be the best idea.

Another idea would be that each member can suggest successively a writing to read, the order of members would be alotted before.

A third idea would be that for each "course" a moderator/teacher is voted by the CC.

Either way, I think we should avoid a discussion every time again what to read, because that would slow down thing too much (yes, I'm aware of trhe irony...) :)

T_SP

31st May 2005, 21:20

Well, I see your point Malte, but I think this has now been over-hyped so much that it has come to a point where by we just need to open the damn group or condemn it to cyber hell :)
This has all been so long winded that interest may have already been lost, so my polite advice :) is, to either get on with it or forget the whole thing. To be honest forgetting the whole thing would be a travesty!

resisting arrest with violence

31st May 2005, 21:21

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 04:01 PM
Sorry about the long delay until us admins are really doing something about it.
Like TAT said, we where alraedy planning something like this even before the thread was started, so we are very willing to support you on this.
Our idea is to open a new forum for it. Every week or so, there would be a new "homework" to read a certain part of a writing which should be available freely on the Internet, and ideally could also be posted in that forum. After a week we would discuss that part of the writing than, and questions are being answered.

Unlike it has been suggested by some here, I think we should begin with basic Marxist and Anarchist writings like the Communist Manifesto, and go forward to more advanced stuff than, it's important we create it newbie friendly IMO.
So what else basic writings beside the Manifesto do you suggest to start with?
We should discuss State and Revolution and Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism. I also agree with you that there should be two threads one for newbies and one for more knowlegeable people so people do not feel left out and can learn quickly that way.

Edelweiss

31st May 2005, 21:54

That was fast! I just got an reply from marxists.org to my e-mail asking them for co-operation:

Malte,

Thanks for your mail. I've had a look at your site and it is very impressive!

I've sent a mail to our internal list to solicit volunteers. I'm sure we will come up with some. I'll also participate in the process at least in some way, as teaching the fundamentals is something I enjoy.

Comradely,

Brian Basgen

So if there are not any complains against that, I think if we let someone of marxists.org moderate the study group and pick the writings, I hope that is an acceptable compromise for everyone. Actually I can't hardly think about a better and more effective way to run the study group than if it's moderated by staff member of the biggest Marxist archive on the Net.

RedStarOverChina

31st May 2005, 22:00

Sounds terrific.

Nice work.

Poum_1936

31st May 2005, 22:01

I have not been following this thread for awhile now. But I take it nothing has been done yet. But I agree with Malte just because it will give some organization to this chaos.

NovelGentry

31st May 2005, 23:14

Actually I can't hardly think about a better and more effective way to run the study group than if it's moderated by staff member of the biggest Marxist archive on the Net.

No? How bout by the democratic decision of the people who will actually be reading the books?

Edelweiss

1st June 2005, 00:13

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 12:14 AM

Actually I can't hardly think about a better and more effective way to run the study group than if it's moderated by staff member of the biggest Marxist archive on the Net.

No? How bout by the democratic decision of the people who will actually be reading the books?
Arrgh! Are you saying this to piss me off, or are you seriously interested in getting this study group started?
Do you want to discuss two weeks each time before you choose a new writing, or what? If a moderator just chooses the writings for a course, also with a certain concept behind it, this will make the study group far more effective and useful for everyone. First, you complain about how slow things are getting done, and than you suggest something which would make the course even more slower. That doesn't make any sense at all.

NovelGentry

1st June 2005, 00:20

Arrgh! Are you saying this to piss me off, or are you seriously interested in getting this study group started?

No, I'm saying it to make what I presume is a very valid point, but unfortunately I don't think should have to be made. As I pointed out in our conversation the other day, the group already was started it even appeared as if we already knew what our first work was going to be. In fact, had you not stopped it, we would have ended the poll and began reading tomorrow afternoon, just 17 hours from now.

Do you want to discuss two weeks each time before you choose a new writing, or what? If a moderator just chooses the writings for a course, also with a certain concept behind it, this will make the study group far more effective and useful for everyone.

No, I think we could easily discuss what writing we want to do next in a separate thread, but at the same time as discussing the content of the current writing we're on. In short, I think we're capable of doing such a thing, and furthermore setting limits on the vote and discussion to time it to go along with the end of our old discussion.

First, you complain about how slow things are getting done, and than you suggest something which would make the course even more slower. That doesn't make any sense at all.

Well, there's really two parts to my complaint. Not just speed. Things could probably get done really fast if someone just told everyone what to do... but that's not really what I want. I could be mistaken, but I don't think it's what everyone else here wants.

You are indeed getting it done now... there was agitation, and you're making the compromise (oh, I'm not supposed to draw parallels to bourgeois democracy). But your compromise didn't really include us. It was more along the lines of "I think we should e-mail these guys... I e-mailed these guys, they're good to go... do you disagree?" Well yes, I disagree.

I'm sure the people at marxists.org are all very nice, and I thank them for the great work they do, not to mention I thank them for their offer -- but I'm not exactly sure why people completely unaffiliated with this community are going to be deciding the books we should be reading when we have proven completely capable of deciding them ourselves.

So you wanted to know if we disagree. Yes, I disagree.

coda

1st June 2005, 00:32

almost like when the Soviet specialists went to Cuba.

Edelweiss

1st June 2005, 00:50

What is the purpose of the study group than? Your purpose seems to be mental mastrubation, something you are good in, my purpose is education, and that as effective as possible.

I just think a study group works better if we have a neutral moderator suggesting the writings to read, also with a certain concept behind it.

But actually I think the method you suggested is good as well, and worth a try, and your way doesn't exclude to have a special course by a Marxists.org staff member as well. I'll open the study group forum within the next couple of days.

NovelGentry

1st June 2005, 01:12

What is the purpose of the study group than? Your purpose seems to be mental mastrubation, something you are good in, my purpose is education, and that as effective as possible.

I don't think we are to say the purpose of the study group, I think what members receive from it will differ completely from one another. Generally speaking my purpose would be to read works I'd not yet read or fully divulged, and if there was an instance of a work I had read, to do my best to help others learn what it's about -- if such a necessity arose.

I'm still quite young in my leftist reading.

I just think a study group works better if we have a neutral moderator suggesting the writings to read, also with a certain concept behind it.

Well then certainly we can reopen the poll with that suggestion in place and you can vote that way, no?

But actually I think the method you suggested is good as well, and worth a try, and your way doesn't exclude to have a special course by a Marxists.org staff member as well. I'll open the study group forum within the next couple of days.

I think we are quite capable of varying outlets, or at the very least deciding between them, maybe even alternating... doing whatever... but no matter what we decide on, it should be those people taking part who do it, not you individually, not myself individually, and not even the commie club as a separate entity.

Edelweiss

1st June 2005, 01:25

Well Gent, there is no way you'll stop me to set up a course by Marxists.org. I think it's a good idea, and I'm pretty sure it will work out well. I don't think I have to ask you or anybody else for permission to do it, if you don't wanna take part in it, let it be. It's up to you.
However, I'll set up that study group forum within the next couple of days, and enable polls there. Than you or anybody else can open a poll there what to read inclusing all works that have been suggested again. I think this way it's a much more clean way than open another thread in Chit Chat or the CC.

NovelGentry

1st June 2005, 01:30

I don't think I have to ask you or anybody else for permission to do it, if you don't wanna take part in it, let it be. It's up to you.

No, and if there is one point I will grant you, it is that all our actions here, including to whate level we have or don't have democratic means, is, and always will be, by your grace.

However, I'll set up that study group forum within the next couple of days, and enable polls there. Than you or anybody else can open a poll there what to read inclusing all works that have been suggested again. I think this way it's a much more clean way than open another thread in Chit Chat or the CC.

This was an initial suggestion in this original forum I believe, and was mentioned again in the original poll. The plan was never to fill up chit-chat. Everyone seemed to be OK with it.

Edelweiss

1st June 2005, 01:40

This was an initial suggestion in this original forum I believe, and was mentioned again in the original poll. The plan was never to fill up chit-chat. Everyone seemed to be OK with it.

Yes, and I never had a problem with that plan. My problem was you starting the poll in Chit Chat forum where it doesn't belong, instead of just contacting an admin to work out how to proceed with it. I would have been very willing to co-operate and get the thing done.

I'm sick of discussing with you now BTW, I have wated way too much time with it.