Why is it

[Social Greenman]

Why is it that pro-capitalist workers think that taxes funding social programs is a terrible thing and yet find extracting profits off the back of workers is okay?

Social

[Hiero]

Originally posted by Social [email protected] 10 2005, 08:43 PM
Why is it that pro-capitalist workers think that taxes funding social programs is a terrible thing and yet find extracting profits off the back of workers is okay?

Social
Lack of Class concsiousness.

The dont not realise their class is in direct contradiction to the capitalist. They think whats good for the capitalis is good for all.

[monkeydust]

Do they really, though?

I've yet to find many "real" workers who have no problem with crappy-wages. Few say "I'm getting paid next to nothing, and I don't mind a jot!"

[Colombia]

They don't know the whole story. That is why.

[Enragé]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 12:27 PM
Do they really, though?

I've yet to find many "real" workers who have no problem with crappy-wages. Few say "I'm getting paid next to nothing, and I don't mind a jot!"
well they do care about that. But most of the time they are simply kept quiet by the promiss of a better day, a promiss that will never come. The entire non-revolutionary part of the proletariat believes, in some way or the other, that they have the actual realistic chance that they will be rich one day, they all dream of it. They are not anti-capitalist because they want to become those who oppress them.
The promiss of a better day combined with, sometimes, raising wages by 1-5% keeps the proletariat quiet.

Panem et circenses (Bread and games)..thats what its all about..

[OleMarxco]

There is no such thing as "next to nothing", but you're right all right ;)
The proletar will never become the oppressors, and even if they do (yes, unless they take a B.I. in managing allright but that's just to sleep with the enemy) they'll just become assholes or if they try to reason with the proletares and do something nice to them as give all the workers on the factory f.eg a seat on the board making it a co-operative firm, the capitalists will smell your proletar-stench and kick you off before you can say, "Hey, I'm not a commie....."

[Social Greenman]

Thanks for the replies. I do believe propaganda does play a part including the apathy of the working class. I been reading a little bit about Libertarian capitalists and they are totally against unions and collective bargaining.

Thomas DiLorenzo on worker activism: "[L]abor unions [pursue] policies which impede the very institutions of capitalism that are the cause of their own prosperity." Or Ludwig von Mises: "What is today euphemistically called the right to strike is in fact the right of striking workers, by recourse to violence, to prevent people who want to work from working." (Employer violence is apparently acceptable.) The Libertarian Party platform explains that workers have no right to protest drug tests, and supports the return of child labor.

Not only that, they believe that taxes for social programs is theft but when it comes to making profits off of the backs of workers it is fine and dandy. In other words, a slave owner is entitled to profit off his property and I get the feeling that Libertairianism would not mind if slave owners existed.

Social

[Jersey Devil]

Originally posted by Social [email protected] 10 2005, 09:43 AM
Why is it that pro-capitalist workers think that taxes funding social programs is a terrible thing and yet find extracting profits off the back of workers is okay?

Social
Because it comes out of their personal income via taxation.

[Social Greenman]

Ah, but they don't realise that they are getting screwed out of personal income from the capitalist class.

Social

[Social Greenman]

Jersey Devil Wrote:

Because it comes out of their personal income via taxation.

Yes, many do feel that way though most social programs are underfunded or cut.

I also asked this question on another forum and here is one of the responses.


(1) Lots of capitalist propaganda from a young age. People are told that the "profit motive" is necessary for new inventions, when much actual innovation was done independently of the profit model, or in the last century actually directly financed by governments since it wasn't profitable.

(2) Libertarians think that with ownership of capital comes the right to the profit generated by use of that capital. They also deny the labor theory of value and go to market theories that are basically superficial. Libertarianism is based off of the junk economics that exist basically so capitalists don't have to acknowledge Marx's deconstruction of classic liberal economics in Capital (which is the single best book a socialist can read).

Social

[Social Greenman]

A PS here. I wish I could spend more time here but I have a few commitments and a few circumstances that limit my time here as well as on two other forums. I hope things get better as time goes by.

Social

[kurt]

Hey Greenman, I recognize you from the CPC boards, any clue as to why those went down?

In regards to your question I think there are several reasons that contribute to workers supporting the capitalist system and then not wanting tax dollars going into social programs. First off, I can't honestly say I've noticed a trend towards your latter assertion in many people that I've spoken too. However, most of them are indeed leery of spending tax dollars in social programs simply for the reason that they don't believe they make enough money in the first place and need every penny they have to spend on basic things( or few luxuries). This coupled with the fact that they distrust politicians and how they will allocate the money is probably a major reason for their cautiousness.

However, some reasons, in my belief, for them supporting the ruling class are as
follows:

1) "It's not so bad"
While they are aware of the fact that the capitalist class have enormous wealth and aren't doing much work, they believe that by themselves owning a few luxuries(maybe a fairly decent car, computer and TV), they could not possibly be 'oppressed'. They see it as a bad thing that some are filthy rich while they must bust their ass day after day, but don't truely think this should constitute an entire upheaval of the system.

2) "Benefits"
They believe that they are actually benefiting from the capitalist system. For example, my father is a strong believer in unions, strong social programs etc. However when it comes to the concept of socialism and communism, he is against it. Some arugments he has given are that he himself once rented out a house when he owned two, and lived in the other. He says in this way the capitalist system 'benefited' him. (And if you think he's rich or something, he's not. He just got into the market very early and saved money while living in his parents house for several years after high school. Of course this can't happen when you don't really have a house to stay in, which poses another problem for young workers without any financial aid etc). What I believe he does not understand is that he is being gravely underpaid for the work he does day in and day out. This is a fact because if their were no profits in his company, they wouldn't be around long to pay him the wages. The 'benefits' he received whilst renting out his second home are miniscule in comparsion to the wages he would have been making all these years if they were the actual wages that his labour created.

3) "Indoctrination"
Since youth he has been told that communism instantly must be acquainted with dictatorship and totalitarianism. This is where the parties and youth movements come in. We must show them that it is possible to reach communism without a totalitarian state, and tell them how.

This is why I believe that it is in our interests to appeal to working class youth, especially in First world countries. These working class youth have seen the struggles that their parents have gone through in this capitalist system, and they are not yet indoctrinated enough, nor content enough with the few benefits capitalism offers to proletariats in first world imperialistic countries.

I also believe that the countries most oppressed by our own imperialistic methods will have to revolt before the first world countries will spin into a major economic slump. At the time of the first major communist writings I do not believe that the actual tenacity of imperialist countries was realized. These countries simply oppress other nations to maintain their wealth so as to not put the enormous burden on their own citizens. This causes the citizens of the most advanced countries to not have as much of a class conscience, nor have nessacary conditions for revolution.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 05:29 AM
Hey Greenman, I recognize you from the CPC boards, any clue as to why those went down?
CEC trying to silence the Quebec-wing of the party.
(Read: CEC being national-chauvenist ****s)

As to pro-capitalist workers - can you say "hegemony" three times fast?

[kurt]

Yeah, the Quebec issue was unfortunate.. although i haven't really been able to obtain the full details so I won't make any judgements, but I had no clue the forums being down had anything to do with that issue :P

[Social Greenman]

I have no idea why the CPC board is down. What does the CEC have to do with the CPC forum being down?

Social

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Originally posted by Social [email protected] 12 2005, 08:03 AM
I have no idea why the CPC board is down. What does the CEC have to do with the CPC forum being down?

Social
The "Central Executive Committee" - and I think it's rather obvious that they took it down to sustain a monopoly on ideological discourse, and difuse the threat of Quebec exposing their objectively anti-communist action.

[Redmau5]

Originally posted by Social [email protected] 12 2005, 08:03 AM
I have no idea why the CPC board is down. What does the CEC have to do with the CPC forum being down?

Social
Social, is there any need to keep signing your posts ? We get the point.

[bolshevik butcher]

propoganda, also the fact that they don't think there' any better way, they see o****ries like the USSR that the media tells them was communist or socialist and think god no. On the otherhand, a lot of them are in unions, and do ahve some class concuiousness.

[Social Greenman]

Social, is there any need to keep signing your posts ? We get the point.
It's a habit that I am so used to doing. :D


The "Central Executive Committee" - and I think it's rather obvious that they took it down to sustain a monopoly on ideological discourse, and difuse the threat of Quebec exposing their objectively anti-communist action.

Egad...censorship! Not good.

[monkeydust]

You forgot to sign your post there, mate.

[Social Greenman]

Oh yes of course.

Social

[OleMarxco]

I think he too got the point...finally! :lol:
In secrecy, it was pissing me off to. I know it's silly of me, but I see a few here and there doing it, and it's so GODDAMN ANNOYING. WHY DO PEOPLE HAVE TO TELL ME THE OBVIOUS. Sign this, sign that, sign my motherfuckin' prostastes! I don't give a shit! Burn the signers! Hope it's not contagious. It might spread to me. Oh yeah, that would make me a hypocrit wouldn't it?

OleMarxCo

[Social Greenman]

Well, if I don't sign my name on another forum one person starts calling me by another poster's name so I sign everyone of them and then it became a habit which I did not know was irritating anyone here.

[workersunity]

someone had guff with him signing, thats just dumb, keep on signing, and to answer your question is that they lack correct class consciousness

[Social Greenman]

Come on over to our Forum Workersunity and thanks for the support.

Greenman

[kurt]

Perhaps you had an opinion on the matter social?

[Matthew The Great]

Originally posted by Social [email protected] 11 2005, 02:24 PM
The Libertarian Party platform explains that workers have no right to protest drug tests, and supports the return of child labor.


That seems odd because the Libertarians are in favor of legalizing all drugs and letting people "decide for themselves". At least this is what i've always read and thought to be true.

The child labor thing is a complete step backward, though.

[workersunity]

which forum social?

[OleMarxco]

I liked his "Greenman" signing better. Keep it up, brotha ;)
(*whispers loudly!* The CPC board!)

MarxCOle

[Social Greenman]

Matthew the Great Wrote:


That seems odd because the Libertarians are in favor of legalizing all drugs and letting people "decide for themselves". At least this is what i've always read and thought to be true.

The child labor thing is a complete step backward, though.

That came from this website that was critical of Libertarianism
http://www.zompist.com/libertos.html

Comradekurt Wrote:


Perhaps you had an opinion on the matter social?

Not so much of an opinion. Did the CEC closed down the forum because the CPC main website declares:


The CPC Discussion Forum Is Down!

Please bear with us while we reconfigure and relocate our discussion forum. This had become necessary because of the huge response we have had and we have exceeded our storage limitations.

I don't recall the message board having all that much traffic.

Me

[Raisa]

Capitalist workers:


As a working class we dont have class contiousness.
Class contiousness is being aware of where you stand as a class...especially when it comes to where to stand against another class. Your contious of the sitation and the exploiation of your entire class. Contiousness is when you know youre being taken advantage of!

We come home from work and we look at tv after we are so tired. What class generally makes TV? Do poor people own the TV production companies? Nah!

Working people put on TV and they dont even SEE themselves. We see people who are uppermiddle class...thats all we think about being. And as a consiquence of always seeing bourgeois world views like this example.....we dont think about how things are for us NOW. Or that in order for capitalism to exist most people need to struggle to live ,, most people will not be living like the people on our TV shows.

Alot of the different sources we hear different opinions from also have alot of money and an upperclass bias. Our lives are full of their opinion. The people the system doesnt work for are getting their opinions from the people that the system DOES work for. Often those seem like the only opinions to chose from. But capitalism does not work in the working man's interests at all! It requiers him to be enthralled infront of it, and even if one day HE suceeds.....there will still be the majority of the world in his place. Always..because that is the way capitalism is.

The upperlcass and wealthyer people will talk about THEIR freedom...because alot of them really have it. They talk about how great things are for them. And how they have choices and all this. And how their work did pay off. And we are so concerned with being them one day, that we forget who we are NOW...and chase their dreams. And in forgetting who we are now, because half the time you dont even get a chance to know before you are spoon fed capitalist thoughts..and capitalist world views... in forgetting or not even knowing who you are you do a very foolish thing!
You just walk around repeating the views of another class.

[Social Greenman]

That is a great answer Raisa since it is in the realm of propaganda. Even education has elements of propaganda not encourage capitalism and down play socialism. My feeling is that they have gotten so good in the media people just accept things as they are without realising there are alternatives to capitalism namely socialism.