The Black Panther Party

[Mitch Flo]

Recently I have noticed several people have been confused about the BPP, so I decided to show this article and since they aren't around anymore I put it in the history section...

http://www.blackpanther.org/logo03.jpg

The Black Panther Party was a progressive political organization that stood in the vanguard of the most powerful movement for social change in America since the Revolution of 1776 and the Civil War: that dynamic episode generally referred to as The Sixties. It is the sole black organization in the entire history of black struggle against slavery and oppression in the United States that was armed and promoted a revolutionary agenda, and it represents the last great thrust by the mass of black people for equality, justice and freedom.

The Party's ideals and activities were so radical, it was at one time assailed by FBI chief J. Edgar Hoover as "the greatest threat to the internal security of the United States." And, despite the demise of the Party, its history and lessons remain so challenging and controversial that established texts and media would erase all reference to the Party from American history.

The Black Panther Party was the manifestation of the vision of Huey P. Newton, the seventh son of a Louisiana family transplanted to Oakland, California. In October of 1966, in the wake of the assassination of black leader Malcolm X and on the heels of the massive black, urban uprising in Watts, California and at the height of the civil rights movement led by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Newton gathered a few of his longtime friends, including Bobby Seale and David Hilliard, and developed a skeletal outline for this organization. It was named, originally, the Black Panther Party for Self Defense. The black panther was used as the symbol because it was a powerful image, one that had been used effectively by the short*lived voting rights group the Lowndes County (Alabama) Freedom Organization. The term "self defense" was employed to distinguish the Party's philosophy from the dominant non*violent theme of the civil rights movement, and in homage to the civil rights group the Louisiana based Deacons for Defense. These two, symbolic references were, however, where all similarity between the Black Panther Party and other black organizations of the time, the civil rights groups and black power groups, ended.

Immediately, the leadership of the embryonic Party outlined a Ten Point Platform and Program. This Platform & Program articulated the fundamental wants and needs, and called for a redress of the long*standing grievances, of the black masses in America, still alienated from society and oppressed despite the abolition of slavery at the end of the Civil War. Moreover, this Platform & Program was a manifesto that demanded the express needs be met and oppression of blacks be ended immediately, a demand for the right to self defense, by a revolutionary ideology and by the commitment of the membership of the Black Panther Party to promote its agenda for fundamental change in America.

[guerillablack]

Everyone should read To Die For the People, which is a collection of speeches and essays by Huey P. Shows the development of the party and their marxist -lennist views.

[Mitch Flo]

Everyone should read To Die For the People, which is a collection of speeches and essays by Huey P. Shows the development of the party and their marxist -lennist views.


I think I'll look into that, thanks.

[EneME]

One of the founders (not mentioned in the article above b/c she's a female) is currently a professor of mine. The Black Panther Party is still around, they are just not as active and have different agenda's now...

[Mitch Flo]

The Black Panther Party is still around, they are just not as active and have different agenda's now...

Where could I learn more about them?

[guerillablack]

Are you talking about the New Black Panther Party?

[Paradox]

The Black Panthers Speak is also a great book on the BPP, if you haven't read it yet. A comrade from here suggested the book to me, and it was well worth it. Not only does it have speeches and writings by Huey and Bobby, but Eldridge, Hampton, and some by the female Panthers as well. Good book. Check it out. ;)

[EneME]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 04:24 AM
Are you talking about the New Black Panther Party?
I guess so... I'm not really sure, I just know b/c of my Prof. and I live an area that lived and breathed the BPP... so I hear of them from time to time..


Where could I learn more about them?
I'll find out where I can get some info. from my Prof on Tuesday for you...

[Mitch Flo]

Thanks, I'm interested.

[guerillablack]

Originally posted by EneME+May 8 2005, 04:55 AM--> (EneME @ May 8 2005, 04:55 AM)
[email protected] 8 2005, 04:24 AM
Are you talking about the New Black Panther Party?
I guess so... I'm not really sure, I just know b/c of my Prof. and I live an area that lived and breathed the BPP... so I hear of them from time to time..


Where could I learn more about them?
I'll find out where I can get some info. from my Prof on Tuesday for you... [/b]
I have some friends in the New Black Panther Party.

[Ian]

THERE IS NO NEW BLACK PANTHER PARTY

The NBPP is a reactionary group, the true Panthers went on to form the Huey P Newton Foundation.

What is your Professors name Eneme? I've always though that the BPP founders were the famous 6 males

[EneME]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 06:33 AM
THERE IS NO NEW BLACK PANTHER PARTY

The NBPP is a reactionary group, the true Panthers went on to form the Huey P Newton Foundation.

What is your Professors name Eneme? I've always though that the BPP founders were the famous 6 males
Well, from what I have heard, and seen online (but I recognize that websites can be started by anyone nowadays) she is one of the founding members.... I'm not 100% sure about that, although she did go to prison with Bobby Seale for murder...her name is Ericka Huggins (http://www.blackpanther.org/speakers_table.htm)

EDIT: Just saw that she wasn't a founding member, that website I guess was wrong. She was a leader of a chapter of it...they must have misinterpreted that...

[Hampton]

The only female that had the chance to be "Chairman" of the Panthers sadly enough was Elaine Brown for a couple of years in the late 70's when all the men were either in prison or in exile.

The New Black Panthers that come out of Neward, NJ are both anti white and anti jewish, something the orignal Panthers were not.

Ericka Huggins was head of the New Haven Chapter, the widow of John Huggins

http://www.itsabouttimebpp.com/Memorials/images/John_Huggins_1.jpg

http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/images/2004/1/23/ns.remembrance.picB.jpg

who was murdered along with Bunchy Carter

http://www.itsabouttimebpp.com/Memorials/images/Alprentice_Bunchy_Carter.jpg

on UCLA campus on Jan 17, 1969, and involved in the infamous New Haven trials with Bobby Seale and a dozen other Panthers about a murder they were said to have commited of someone who they thought was a police informant, Alex Rackley. It is said that she went to New Haven because it was Jonh's hometown and she was fulfilling his promise to start a chapter there.

It is also said that during a raid to thier home when she had their six month old in her arms that one of the raides placed the muzzle of a gun to the head of the baby and laughed, "You're next."

I believe they all got off, except for maybe one.

If you can find it (good luck): FREED, Donald. Agony in New Haven: the trial of Bobby Seale, Ericka Huggins and the Black Panther Party. New York, N.Y., U.S.A.: Simon & Schuster, 1973. 347 p.

[guerillablack]

Who says the nbpp are anti-white and anti-jewish?The media? The same media who said the orginal black panther party were anti-white and anti-jewish?

[flyby]

minor factual correction:

Erika Huggins stood trial with Bobby seale in new haven....

But she was from LA, where John Huggins and Bunchy Carter were murdered (as part of hostilities inflamed by cointelpro activities between different Black nationalist groups).

-------------------------------------------

This trial of Erika Huggins and Bobby Seale was one of the most important events of the 1960s. Many thousands of radical students from all over went to New Haven for May Day 1970 to demand their freedom.

It was a major step toward resurrecting May Day as a revolutonary event in the U.S.

And there were intense street fighting in New Haven. (Yale and its dorms were given over to the resistors, and the streets were filled with teargas and fighting skirmishes).

While people were still in New Haven, Nixon invaded Cambodia -- and the famous student strike was called (in part this strike happened so broadly across the U.Sl because so many representtive radical forces were together there in New Haven for Erika and Bobby).

It was at this demo that i first saw forces of the Revolutoinary Union (that had been founded by Bob Avakian in 1968) -- they came ready to struggle hard, organized in tight ranks with helmets and red flags. Their politics, their organization, their determination and courage made a huge impact on me.

This whole New Haven demo, and the case of Erika Huggins, was (as you can see) a big deal. So while she was more of a Panther poet-activist (not a founder or really a leader either of the Panthers), she became an important symbol of the resistance and a rallying point for people looking to defend the panthers.

[flyby]

it is also worth pointing out that the original panthers were anti-religious and secular, and influenced by internationalist communist politics, and eager to work with people of all nationalities to bring down imperialism.

Several of the so-called "New Black Panther" groups formed since have been much more narrowly nationalist, often colored by religious islam, and not that particularly revolutionary at all (just posing as "militant" without real revolutionary politics.)

------------------------------------------------

On another aspect of this:

The Revolutionary Communist Party sees itself as a group that emerged out of the Black Panthers (not in a direct organizational way, though some founding members of the RCP were former Panthers). And the RCP has worked to continue deepening the revolution while summing up how to take our understanding and practice to a higher level.

Talking About Huey P. Newton and the Black Panther Party--the Early Years by Bob Avakian (http://rwor.org/a/1213/bahuey.htm)

Here is a rather interesting analysis of what we can learn from the writings of Panther Leader George Jackson:

Rereading George Jackson By Bob Avakian, Chairman of the RCP, USA (http://rwor.org/a/v20/960-69/968/jackson.htm)

One of the RCP's spokespeople, Joe Veale, was himself in the Panthers. And he has written about that here: http://www.itsabouttimebpp.com/Our_Stories...e_Red_Book.html (http://www.itsabouttimebpp.com/Our_Stories/Chapter2/Carrying_the_Red_Book.html)

Joe is now about to be part of a summer national Revolutionary Communist speaking tour (http://rwor.org/a/001/revolutionary-communist-4-tour.htm) (together with three other speakers.)

This RC4 tour will be a tremendous event. Don't miss it.

[Wiesty]

they're cause was great, but the whole assasinating and murder scene just ruined it. the bpp was like the black kkk

[guerillablack]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 11:00 PM
they're cause was great, but the whole assasinating and murder scene just ruined it. the bpp was like the black kkk
I love when ignorant people compare the Black Panthers to the KKK! There is no justification for this comparison. You are brainwashed by the media. Flyby do you know anything about the Black Panthers?

[Hampton]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 01:34 PM
Who says the nbpp are anti-white and anti-jewish?The media? The same media who said the orginal black panther party were anti-white and anti-jewish?

With a fondness for speeches with titles like "Who's Pimping the World?" (answer: "the Jews"), Muhammad has rarely minced words.

He has blamed slavery and even the Holocaust on the "hooked-nose, bagel-eating, lox-eating, perpetrating-a-fraud, so-called Jew."

He has called for building a Student Violent Coordinating Committee — a takeoff on the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee that was a key player in the civil rights struggle.

He has launched repeated diatribes against his enemies: "white devil crackers," "bloodsucking Jews" and "faggots."

Some of his most famous comments, regarding politics in post-apartheid South Africa, came in a notorious 1993 speech at Kean College in New Jersey.

Muhammad had clear ideas for dealing with whites who did not leave immediately: "We kill the women. We kill the babies. We kill the blind. We kill the cripples. We kill them all. We kill the faggot. We kill the lesbian. ... When you get through killing them all, go to the goddamn graveyard and dig up the grave and kill them a-goddamn-gain, because they didn't die hard enough" the first time.

Link. (http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=214)


they're cause was great, but the whole assasinating and murder scene just ruined it. the bpp was like the black kkk

Read a book.

[EneME]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 07:42 PM
This whole New Haven demo, and the case of Erika Huggins, was (as you can see) a big deal. So while she was more of a Panther poet-activist (not a founder or really a leader either of the Panthers), she became an important symbol of the resistance and a rallying point for people looking to defend the panthers.
Your description of her being a "poet-activist" is right on the money, b/c she is very spiritual and I feel like I'm in therapy every class. I mentioned in a discussion about "napalm" what it was and that it was dropped in ES, and man... she practically reached out and hugged me. She apologized over and over...I felt kinda creepy getting emotional in class w/ a stranger. lol :lol:

Thanks everyone who posted...I know I should know more about the BPP, but in all seriousness, because of my strong roots to central america, being an immigrant and the atrocities committed there thanks to U$ foreign policy, I do not focus on domestic issues as much as I should. Thanks for the info!

[4514]

another good book is "war against the panthers" huey p.newton
focus more on the u.s govt/ COINTELPRO war against them,
4514,
rank and file

[guerillablack]

Originally posted by Hampton+May 9 2005, 01:25 AM--> (Hampton @ May 9 2005, 01:25 AM)
[email protected] 8 2005, 01:34 PM
Who says the nbpp are anti-white and anti-jewish?The media? The same media who said the orginal black panther party were anti-white and anti-jewish?

With a fondness for speeches with titles like "Who's Pimping the World?" (answer: "the Jews"), Muhammad has rarely minced words.

He has blamed slavery and even the Holocaust on the "hooked-nose, bagel-eating, lox-eating, perpetrating-a-fraud, so-called Jew."

He has called for building a Student Violent Coordinating Committee — a takeoff on the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee that was a key player in the civil rights struggle.

He has launched repeated diatribes against his enemies: "white devil crackers," "bloodsucking Jews" and "faggots."

Some of his most famous comments, regarding politics in post-apartheid South Africa, came in a notorious 1993 speech at Kean College in New Jersey.

Muhammad had clear ideas for dealing with whites who did not leave immediately: "We kill the women. We kill the babies. We kill the blind. We kill the cripples. We kill them all. We kill the faggot. We kill the lesbian. ... When you get through killing them all, go to the goddamn graveyard and dig up the grave and kill them a-goddamn-gain, because they didn't die hard enough" the first time.

Link. (http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=214)


they're cause was great, but the whole assasinating and murder scene just ruined it. the bpp was like the black kkk

Read a book. [/b]
When was that written, because it is completly wrong.

[Ian]

You make a fantastic point, COMPLETELY WRONG! OMGZ!

Read what the Huey P Newton Foundation says about them here http://www.blackpanther.org/newsalert.htm and find some new friends

Edit- Your signature offends me. No god is worthy of worship. :angry:

[guerillablack]

OMGZ. Why don't you read a essay/speech written by Eldgride Cleaver or Huey Newton before 1970. You will see that that website is trying to wash the BPP name as if they didn't have their faults like the NBPP. I love the BPP and what they did, but even Huey P when he was alive acknowledged it, while this Foundation for him doesn't. The website tries to make the NBPP seem completly disorganized, which it is not. I fully support the NBPP and actually having the national chairperson come to my school next year.

I'm glad i offend you.

[Hampton]

Malcolm X vs. Khallid Abdul Muhammad


Peter Noel, my impressively resourceful colleague, quotes Al Sharpton in the August 25 Voice as revealing that Khallid Abdul Muhammad's hero is Malcolm X.

I knew Malcolm X from the time he was recognized around much of the world as a spokesman for Elijah Muhammad's Nation of Islam. We spoke from time to time, disagreed from time to time, and became friends.

The last time I saw Malcolm was at radio station WBAI in New York. Louis Farrakhan, who had succeeded Malcolm as the tribune of the Nation of Islam, had been saying that a traitor to the Nation--that is, Malcolm--did not deserve to live. Malcolm, having exposed some of the Clinton-like sexual habits of Elijah Muhammad, had left the Nation in disgust.

I had never seen Malcolm show fear until that afternoon at the radio station. At first, we were joking about a writer we both knew who was masterful at getting bountiful advances from book publishers for manuscripts that were never heard from again.

But as we talked, Malcolm became solemn. His home in Queens had been firebombed. A few days before, he had checked into a hotel under an assumed name so that he could focus on writing an article with an immediate deadline. As soon as he came in the door, Malcolm told me, the phone rang, and a voice said, "Hello, Malcolm."

As I left the radio station, Malcolm said that he did not expect to live much longer. He feared for his wife and children.

A while before, he had written me a postcard on the way back from his trip to Mecca--a journey every adult Muslim is expected to make at least once in his lifetime. He was very proud of that voyage. He said he was the first American-born black person to make the actual hajj (the pilgrimage).

Malcolm sent the message on the postcard to me and to other friends:

"In my recent travels into the African countries and others, I was impressed by the importance of having a working unity among all peoples, black as well as white.

"But the only way this is going to be brought about is that the black ones have to be in unity first."

He didn't have nearly enough time to work out specific organizing plans for the future before he was gunned down by black men whose own concept of unity required the termination of Malcolm.

After his death, a Voice reader told me about a lecture Malcolm had given at a college in New York State a year or so before he was killed. After the speech, the moderator was supposed to field the questions and then have Malcolm answer them.

A black student rose and attacked Jews--all Jews, from the beginning of time and those not yet born--with a viciousness that would have made Khallid Abdul Muhammad, a world-class anti-Semite, envious.

Malcolm X did not wait for the moderator to give him the floor. Malcolm jumped from his seat, grabbed the microphone, and with the icy anger his critics knew so well, said:

"What you're doing is what has for so long been done to us. Bigotry doesn't help anybody, including the bigot. Listen, I don't judge a man because of the color of his skin. I don't judge people because they're white. I don't judge you because you're black. I judge you because of what you do and what you practice. I'm not against people because they're Jews. I'm against
racists."

Khallid Abdul Muhammad has often described all Jews as "bloodsuckers." And in July of this year, Khallid Abdul Muhammad charged that New York is a "Jewish-controlled city."

Has Rudy Giuliani only been passing as Catholic all these years?

In her August 14 column in the Daily News, E. R. Shipp quoted a statement Malcolm made near the end of his life. His message is utterly alien to the Khallid Abdul Muhammad who claims Malcolm X as his hero:

"One of the first things I think young people should learn is how to see for yourself and listen for yourself and think for yourself. Then you can come to an intelligent conclusion for yourself.

"If you form the habit of going by what you hear others say about someone, or go by what others think about someone--instead of searching that thing out for yourself and seeing for yourself--you will be walking west when you think you're going east, and you will be walking east when you think you're going west."

By contrast, there is Khallid Abdul Muhammad. On college campuses, he trumpets brutal stereotypes of Catholics, gays, lesbians, and, of course, "hooked-nose, so-called Jews with hairy hands" who dominate all the world, especially this country.

I have on tape a three-hour speech by Muhammad at Kean College, in New Jersey, that exceeds even Farrakhan in its incitement to hatred. His ferocious bigotry would be easy to parody except that it penetrates the minds and emotions of many black youngsters, on and off college campuses. Those verbal poisons are protected by the First Amendment, and they tell you a lot about the speaker.

What Khallid Abdul Muhammad stands for is utterly contemptuous of the kind of black unity that Malcolm X was trying to create at the time he was murdered at the Audubon Ballroom in Harlem. His body was destroyed, but not his spirit.

There is now a Manichean struggle between the liberating clarity of Malcolm X and the destructive teachings of Khallid Abdul Muhammad. In his August 25 Voice piece, Peter Noel quotes a black analyst who prefers not to be identified:

"Khallid Muhammad is a personality, and movements are also built around personalities… Since Farrakhan has been moving his Nation of Islam more mainstream, the nationalist movement has no rallying figure of its own.

"Khallid has a definable image… He's star quality."

When the character and content of Malcolm X's life will still be reverberating, Khallid Muhammad's "star" will have long since faded into the dust of demagoguery.

Link. (http://www.villagevoice.com/news/9840,hentoff,639,6.html)

[resisting arrest with violence]

I love the Black Panthers but I'm not an expert on their history. I love it when they called the police and other authority figures "pigs" & "swine." They deserved it.

Well I've been hearing lots of things like Huey Newton sodomizing several Black Panthers like Bobby Seale and then there is former leftist turned fascist David Horowitz who claims that the Panthers murdered his friend who was a bookkeeper. Still I think the Panthers were righteous.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Horowitz


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_Van_Patter

http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleid.161...icle_detail.asp (http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleid.16177/article_detail.asp)

[guerillablack]

Yes, i believe a allegation that a panther shot his friend froma man who thinks slavery reparations is racist. Craziest thing i read today, thanks

[codyvo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 11:00 PM
they're cause was great, but the whole assasinating and murder scene just ruined it. the bpp was like the black kkk
I disagree that they were anything like the KKK and also if you say "their cause was great" and you also compare them to the KKK does that mean that you also think that the cause of the KKK was great also?

[Wiesty]

ask questions before u make assumptions, their cause, as in they wanted black rights to be made possible, that was great. But as far as ive heard they hated white people as well, which would make them racist as well. Either way they were a gang who murdered people to.

[guerillablack]

What you heard? From the media? You know nothing. They were not anti-white.

I'm learning more each day. One day saying nonviolent revolution is impossible then hating the BPP for condoning violence! HA!

[Paradox]

But as far as ive heard they hated white people as well, which would make them racist as well. Either way they were a gang who murdered people to.

As far as you've heard, you've been lied to. You are severely misinformed. Read a book. I suggested The Black Panthers Speak earlier in this thread, and other members suggested other books, either way, read one of them!!!

[guerillablack]

It's funny that he told the prior person to ask before he made assumptions yet he makes a huge one too.

[TC]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 06:34 PM
Who says the nbpp are anti-white and anti-jewish?The media? The same media who said the orginal black panther party were anti-white and anti-jewish?
even if individual members are not, their website certaintly comes off as being anti-white and anti-jewish and in at least one instance anti-arab. The website is down right now but you can still see some of their information.


Membership application is *hilairous* though. It asks you to report your military training, what special forces groups you've been with, martial arts skills, medical training, medication and mental disorders lol. They are so hard core hahaha...not.

Besides at demos they seem pretty pretentious.

The origional black panther party had a significant support base and organization and had useful programs. The NBPP seems kindof silly.

[comrade_mufasa]

Does the NBPP run a free breakfast program?

[Abstrakt]

Let's not forget about Angela Davis. As far as I know, she is also a professor...In California.

Well, that is the problem that occurs with Religion. The Nation was strong, but that jealousy and envy, and power will get to you.

Malcolm's evolution was incredible through his journey to Mecca. He changed many of his views.

As far as the new Panther Party being anti-semitic and anti-white, that hurts. Hopefully it isn't true. Didn't we learn from Malcolm being slained?(By his own brothers)

[Maksym]

Wiesty’s view of the BPP holds as much weight as his/her view of the USSR.

[Abstrakt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 06:18 PM
Wiesty’s view of the BPP holds as much weight as his/her view of the USSR.
Ouch. Let's give him/her some room here, he/she doesn't know. He/she didn't really claim anything(After his first post) and always stated from what he/she "heard". I hope now he/she has a better understanding.

[Wiesty]

no my views on stalins ussr are very clear, but stalinists like you hide the facts to make stalin seem like a hero

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

A good book I'm reading on the BPP is 'The Shadow of the Panther', by Hugh Pearson.

It's very complete and accurately details the historical lineage and what led up to the creation of the BPP movement itself. A very good read so far.

[guerillablack]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 05:57 PM
Let's not forget about Angela Davis. As far as I know, she is also a professor...In California.

Well, that is the problem that occurs with Religion. The Nation was strong, but that jealousy and envy, and power will get to you.

Malcolm's evolution was incredible through his journey to Mecca. He changed many of his views.

As far as the new Panther Party being anti-semitic and anti-white, that hurts. Hopefully it isn't true. Didn't we learn from Malcolm being slained?(By his own brothers)
What does that have to do with anything?The relgion and the Nation killing malcom.

[Colombia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 04:35 AM

But as far as ive heard they hated white people as well, which would make them racist as well. Either way they were a gang who murdered people to.

As far as you've heard, you've been lied to. You are severely misinformed. Read a book. I suggested The Black Panthers Speak earlier in this thread, and other members suggested other books, either way, read one of them!!!
This book discusses the BPP views but it is obviously biased.

[guerillablack]

How is it obvioulsy bias? You expect to get a non biased view from the government? What better source than the BPP themselves on their views, programs, etc.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 12:34 PM
Who says the nbpp are anti-white and anti-jewish?The media? The same media who said the orginal black panther party were anti-white and anti-jewish?
The New Black Panthers say they're anti-white and anti-Jewish. And the way you keep defending various racists, you're making me wonder if you are too. Sometimes denial is just a cover for justification.

They're also windbag demagogues. They trace back partly to a Milwaukee city councilman (Michael McGee) who promised armed attacks by 1995 unless racism was abolished by then. And, at one point, unless he got reelected to the city council. Surprise! It's 2005 now, and neither the end of racism nor the armed attacks has materialized. You can't bluff the ruling class, which has no fear of sporadic armed attacks by isolated groups anyway.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Mitch [email protected] 6 2005, 09:29 PM
Immediately, the leadership of the embryonic Party outlined a Ten Point Platform and Program. This Platform & Program articulated the fundamental wants and needs, and called for a redress of the long*standing grievances, of the black masses in America, still alienated from society and oppressed despite the abolition of slavery at the end of the Civil War. Moreover, this Platform & Program was a manifesto that demanded the express needs be met and oppression of blacks be ended immediately, a demand for the right to self defense, by a revolutionary ideology and by the commitment of the membership of the Black Panther Party to promote its agenda for fundamental change in America.
Anyway, back to the actual Black Panthers, who were important. For all the reasons given at the beginning of this thread.


It is the sole black organization in the entire history of black struggle against slavery and oppression in the United States that was armed and promoted a revolutionary agenda, and it represents the last great thrust by the mass of black people for equality, justice and freedom.

That's an interesting way to put it, and I think highlights what was so important about it.

Others, earlier, had weapons and practiced armed self-defense, including the NAACP in Monroe, North Carolina (led by Robert F. Williams, who also founded a local National Rifle Association chapter.) But the Black Panthers also had a revolutionary program, the Ten-Point Program. Text of the Ten-Point Program (http://www.marxists.org/history/usa/workers/black-panthers/1966/10/15.htm)

They "represented the last great thrust", OK...it would be an error to say they were the mass upsurge, but they were its most advanced expression...for a time.

I think besides the BPP's revolutionary significance, it's also necessary to recognize its errors and weaknesses and learn from 'em.

One, the influence of the Maoist form of Stalinism. One part of this was the use of violence to settle factional disagreements - both within the organization and with other groups like Karenga's United Slaves organization. The FBI/ COINTELPRO of course worked to increase these conflicts...but could only do so because they existed to begin with. These violent factional conflicts played a major role in the demise of the organization.

Two, a certain orientation towards the lumpen, that is the criminal element, street gangs and so forth, rather than Black workers. This also added to all the organization's problems.

Three, by the end the Black Panthers were abandoning their revolutionary approach to run candidates as Democrats. Sort of "stealth candidate" style in some cases. The blackpanther.org history says they helped elect Oakland's first mayor, so perhaps they supported other Democrats too.

Four, excessive rhetoric about armed struggle, and often failure to clearly stick to self-defense increased the Panthers' vulnerability to police repression. This was mostly a matter of words not deeds; the Panthers carried out few if any armed attacks. Nevertheless it made it much easier for Uncle Sam to frame up the Panthers and justify its murderous attacks.

The Panthers also handicapped their own defense by often insisting that their defense committees be based on support for the Panthers and their program, not simply support for their democratic right to speak and organize.

The source for the first post in this thread, the Dr. Huey P. Newton foundation. (http://www.blackpanther.org/legacynew.htm) Gives a somewhat rosy but nevertheless reality-based account of the party's history. This foundation is the organizational continuation of the Black Panthers, as others have said.

An examination of the BPP's strenghts and weaknesses by one ex-member, Sundiata Acoli. (http://www.thetalkingdrum.com/bla2.html)

some more resources on BPP history (http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/index-be.html)

Another brief account of BPP history with some documents (http://www.marxists.org/history/usa/workers/black-panthers/)

[workersunity]

I just bought the book, The Black Panthers speak out, with philp S. Foner as the editor, have yet to read it, ill tell you how it was when im done

[guerillablack]

Originally posted by Severian+May 12 2005, 07:41 PM--> (Severian @ May 12 2005, 07:41 PM)
[email protected] 8 2005, 12:34 PM
Who says the nbpp are anti-white and anti-jewish?The media? The same media who said the orginal black panther party were anti-white and anti-jewish?
The New Black Panthers say they're anti-white and anti-Jewish. And the way you keep defending various racists, you're making me wonder if you are too. Sometimes denial is just a cover for justification.

They're also windbag demagogues. They trace back partly to a Milwaukee city councilman (Michael McGee) who promised armed attacks by 1995 unless racism was abolished by then. And, at one point, unless he got reelected to the city council. Surprise! It's 2005 now, and neither the end of racism nor the armed attacks has materialized. You can't bluff the ruling class, which has no fear of sporadic armed attacks by isolated groups anyway. [/b]
Do you know any members of the New Black Panther Party?Because i personally am friends with them. One of the common misconceptions about them and their party is that they are anti-jewish or anti-white. The BPP was not anti-semetic nor was it anti-white, however the media, government and white society labeled them as such. If you read the Introduction of the book Panther s Speak Out you would know that. Such is the case with the new black panther party and all other black organizations. You can wonder all you want if i am anti-white or anti-semetic, i'm pro righteouness and anti-devilishment. I'm for the people.


"When a evil person attempts to interpret a righteous person the interpretation will be as evil as the person that is giving it, for when a wicked person judges a godly person the judgement will be wicked but it won't tell you a thing about the person being judged..."

John Afrika

[Black Dagger]

The BPP was not anti-semetic nor was it anti-white, however the media, government and white society labeled them as such.

No one's talking about the BPP, they're talking about the NEW BPP, which is not related to the original BBP at all.



Such is the case with the new black panther party and all other black organizations.

The nature of the original BBP has nothing to do with the new BPP or 'all other black organisations', each organisation has to be taken seperately.

"There Is No New Black Panther Party: An Open Letter From the Dr. Huey P. Newton Foundation
In response from numerous requests from individual's seeking information on the "New Black Panthers," the Dr. Huey P. Newton Foundation issues this public statement to correct the distorted record being made in the media by a small band of African Americans calling themselves the New Black Panthers. As guardian of the true history of the Black Panther Party, the Foundation, which includes former leading members of the Party, denounces this group's exploitation of the Party's name and history. Failing to find its own legitimacy in the black community, this band would graft the Party's name upon itself, which we condemn.

Firstly, the people in the New Black Panthers were never members of the Black Panther Party and have no legitimate claim on the Party's name. On the contrary, they would steal the names and pretend to walk in the footsteps of the Party's true heroes, such as Black Panther founder Huey P. Newton, George Jackson and Jonathan Jackson, Bunchy Carter, John Huggins, Fred Hampton, Mark Cark, and so many others who gave their very lives to the black liberation struggle under the Party's banner.

Secondly, they denigrate the Party's name by promoting concepts absolutely counter to the revolutionary principles on which the Party was founded. Their alleged media assault on the Ku Klux Klan serves to incite hatred rather than resolve it. The Party's fundamental principle, as best articulated by the great revolutionary Ernesto "Che" Guevara, was: "A true revolutionary is guided by great feelings of love." The Black Panthers were never a group of angry young militants full of fury toward the "white establishment." The Party operated on love for black people, not hatred of white people.

Furthermore, this group claims it would "teach" the black community about armed self-defense. The arrogance of this claim is overwhelmed by its reactionary nature. Blacks, especially in the South, have been armed in self-defense for a very long time; indeed, the spiritual parent of the Party itself was the Louisiana-based Deacons for Defense. However, the Party understood that the gun was not necessarily revolutionary, for the police and all other oppressive forces had guns. It was the ideology behind the gun that determined its nature.

Because the Party believed that only the masses of people would make the revolution, the Party never presumed itself to be above the people. The Party considered itself a servant of the people and taught by example. Given massive black hunger, the Party provided free breakfast for children and other free food programs. In the absence of decent medical facilities in the black community, the Party operated free medical clinics. In the face of police brutality, the Party stood up and resisted. Considering the overwhelming number of blacks facing trials and long prison terms, the Party developed free legal aids and bussing-to-prison programs.

The question the Foundation raises, then, is who are these people laying claim to the Party's history and name? Are they reactionary provocateurs, who would instigate activities counterproductive to the people's interests, causing mayhem and death? Are they entertainers, who would posture themselves before the media, and, according to numerous sources, with empty guns, to spin gold for themselves? Are they, given the history of their late-leader Khalid Muhammad, a group of anti-Semites like the very Ku Klux Klan they allegedly oppose? What is their agenda?

Conditions for blacks in America today are worse than when the Black Panther Party was formed in 1966. Blacks in the main continue to live in poverty; disproportionate percentages of blacks die from AIDS and cancer, as the black infant mortality rate continues to be double that of whites. There is a desperate need for liberation agenda. The Black Panther Party unarguably set the example, espousing principles and a history that certainly should be embraced by all those still struggling for freedom. Rather than appropriating the Party's name, however, groups that purport to represent African Americans ought to follow the Party's true historical example. In the absence of such commitment, the Foundation denounces the usurpation of the Black Panther Party name by this questionable band of self-appointed leaders."

http://www.blackpanther.org/newsalert.htm

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 05:47 PM

Do you know any members of the New Black Panther Party?Because i personally am friends with them. One of the common misconceptions about them and their party is that they are anti-jewish or anti-white.
Gee, maybe the anti-Jewish and anti-white statements on their frickin' website and in the speeches of Khalid Muhammad and their other spokesmen have something to do with that....tell ya what.

Why don't you take a few of their statements about white people and Jews and explain how us "evil" people are misinterpreting them and explain why these statements are really A-OK.

***

Damn shame to see this whole thread on an important bit of history, the Blank Panthers, derailed by a troll, basically, who would probably deny the sky is blue. Anybody have any comments about my last post on the actual Panthers?

[Colombia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 08:34 PM
How is it obvioulsy bias? What better source than the BPP themselves on their views, programs, etc.
You answered your own question.

[guerillablack]

No, i did not answer the question.

Preface from Panthers Speak by Julian Bond

"So much has been writtn and spoken about hte Black panthers in the press and over the radio and TV that one might suppose that most people know what the organization stands for and seeks to achieve. But this is far from the case. Only rarely does the press report what the Panthers are actually saying and doing and how they view the problems of black people in society. The result is that most Americans have obtained their impression of the Panthers from statements issued by those who wish to see them eliminated as a factor in American life."

[Black Dagger]

guerillablack, what is your response to, ""There Is No New Black Panther Party: An Open Letter From the Dr. Huey P. Newton Foundation" and its comments on the so-called 'new' BPP?

[Abstrakt]

Originally posted by guerillablack+May 11 2005, 04:24 AM--> (guerillablack @ May 11 2005, 04:24 AM)
[email protected] 10 2005, 05:57 PM
Let's not forget about Angela Davis. As far as I know, she is also a professor...In California.

Well, that is the problem that occurs with Religion. The Nation was strong, but that jealousy and envy, and power will get to you.

Malcolm's evolution was incredible through his journey to Mecca. He changed many of his views.

As far as the new Panther Party being anti-semitic and anti-white, that hurts. Hopefully it isn't true. Didn't we learn from Malcolm being slained?(By his own brothers)
What does that have to do with anything?The relgion and the Nation killing malcom. [/b]
Dude...You answered your own question. The Nation.........Killing Malcolm. The murderers did the crime, claiming to do it for the Nation. The Nation.....Of Islam. You know, the religion.

[Phalanx]

The fact is, Jews are attacked by extreme white supremist and black supremist groups. The Jewish people have been the most persecuted people in human history, without a doubt. What the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians is nothing compared to what the Europeans did to Jews. Fuck the NBPP and fuck Aryan Nation. They are the scum of this earth

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

There shouldn't be a debate as to 'who is a more persecuted people'. It's stupid; something that the BPP was entirely against. They were looking for, in the words of Fred Hampton, 'to unite oppressed peoples everywhere, black, white, brown or yellow'.

What is important is to look at political figures, parties, etc. looking for the elimination of oppression in whatever form. Jews have been persecuted tremendously; the African continent experienced the greatest robbery in history; the British exported many Indian indentured servants to the Caribbean (of which is my personal background); the Red Indian in America was genocided. Oppression occured, but you shouldn't measure who was oppressed more. It's ridiculous.

[guerillablack]

Originally posted by Abstrakt+May 15 2005, 10:34 PM--> (Abstrakt @ May 15 2005, 10:34 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 04:24 AM

[email protected] 10 2005, 05:57 PM
Let's not forget about Angela Davis. As far as I know, she is also a professor...In California.

Well, that is the problem that occurs with Religion. The Nation was strong, but that jealousy and envy, and power will get to you.

Malcolm's evolution was incredible through his journey to Mecca. He changed many of his views.

As far as the new Panther Party being anti-semitic and anti-white, that hurts. Hopefully it isn't true. Didn't we learn from Malcolm being slained?(By his own brothers)
What does that have to do with anything?The relgion and the Nation killing malcom.
Dude...You answered your own question. The Nation.........Killing Malcolm. The murderers did the crime, claiming to do it for the Nation. The Nation.....Of Islam. You know, the religion. [/b]
You need to read more into the Malcolm slaying. It just doesn't involve the NOI and malcolm, but he FBI and CIA at the least. Yes the NOI was a religious organization, but it was an organization period. Even if it wasn't a religious organization, the killing could have taken place. COINTELPRO was muthafucka.

I know please let's not go back and forth saying who was treated worse.

[Black Dagger]

Can you please answer my question?

"guerillablack, what is your response to, ""There Is No New Black Panther Party: An Open Letter From the Dr. Huey P. Newton Foundation" and its comments on the so-called 'new' BPP?"

[Abstrakt]

I didn't feel like another quoting. Yes, GuerillaBlack, I know about the C.I.A. and FBI. But, we must remember, it was black on black violence, and both Malcolm and his slayers claimed to be Islamic.

[guerillablack]

The NOI isn't true Islam. And Malcolm's slayers also claimed to be involed in intelligence agency's.

From various Black Panther sources, The Dr. Huey P Foundation do not have the right of exclusivity to the Black Panther Party name. In fact there were numerous Black Panther Parties in existence before Newton and Seale made their platform and organized the famous Black Panther Party for Self Defense. Many black panthers although may not support the NBPP, support their right to use their name. I personally, feel this open alert is hypocritical in some points but that's me.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 11:07 AM
And Malcolm's slayers also claimed to be involed in intelligence agency's.
No, they didn't. The triggermen were members of a New Jersey NOI mosque. Including the man who was caught at the scene by audience members.

Yes, documents show U.S. intelligence and police agencies wanted to get Malcolm; and the NYPD's behavior, and sudden absence from the area around the Audubon Ballroom, are suspicous. There is reason to think Uncle Sam was involved....but no reason to let the NOI off the hook.

Khalid Muhammad was part of the NOI, and the New Black Panther website still praises Farrakhan; if you think the NOI is "not true Islam" why are you defending the New Black Panthers?

You've ignored my request that you "interpret" the New Black Panther website and explain why its apparent anti-white and anti-Jewish racism is A-OK. Maybe you need a little help?

This page for example. (http://web.archive.org/web/20040307073002/www.newblackpanther.com/crackers.html) Explain how that's not anti-white.

Or the comments about Jews in this interview (http://www.newblackpanther.com/nbppboston/)

[Phalanx]

Those people are pathetic racists. I particularly liked the quote by Jamarhl Crawford saying, "The Jews of today, so to speak, are white people". You can't be further than the truth. A large percentage of the global Jewish population are Sephardic Jews, Jews of Middle-Eastern heritage. And besides, who really gives a fuck!!!!!??????

[guerillablack]

What does whether or not NOI being true islam have anything to do with me defending the NBPP? As for malcolm's killers, i suggest you read Judas Factor and other books concerning his death and things that aren't known to the public. I ignored your request because the NBPP website has nothing on it. How is it anti-jewish unless im missing something.

[Abstrakt]

Dude, look at the fucking website. Click on the links he sent. Maybe that isn't what most of the NBPP is all about, but some leaders are ATLEAST. They make a bad name for Huey and Bobby, and Angela. Just click the link kiddo.

[Phalanx]

Are you ignorant? All you have to do is read the site. It is extremely anti-white and anti-semitic.

[guerillablack]

Are you ignorant?Obviously, they no longer have that stance since you have to goto the cache to see it. How are they making a bad name for Huey, Angela, and Seale?You act as if all Panthers had a clear understand of Marxist-Lenist ideologies. Alot used those same terminologies.

[Abstrakt]

...Can you restate that? You lost me there.

[guerillablack]

Then read it fucking over.

[Severian]

Right. That's the question: who gives a fuck? The only reason to care about that kind of genetic descent question is if you have a biological-race perspective. That is, if you think that people are good or bad depending on alleged biological differences.

[flyby]

Just a few quick comments:

There is a huge political and ideological difference between the Black Panther Party (of the 60s and early 70s) and various forces claiming their name today.

The original panthers were a revolutionary party -- aiming at the overthrow of capitalism in the world, and in unity with anti-imperialist forces around the world.

They were non-religious -- and clearly secular.

Their ideology was a mixture of Black nationalism and Maoism -- and what made them stand out (in contrast to many other Black nationalist forces) was their willingness (even eagerness) to unite broadly with progressive and revolutionary people of all nationalities.

While some forces were saying "liberation will come from a Black thing" -- the Panthers clearly saw that liberation would come from a multi-national and international thing.

There are a few points by severian that I'd like to speak to:

First, severian makes a distinction between armed self defense and armed revolution, and implies that the Panthers weren't clear enough in making that distinction. I think that is rather mechanical thinking, even though it points to a real shortcoming of the panthers.

In fact, the panthers saw armed self-defense as part of their preparation for armed revolution, and they believed that there might be a chance to make such a revolution in the U.S. in the period ahead of them.

It is true that, as an organization, they did not clearly articulate HOW a revolution in the U.S. would go down -- it is one of SEVERAL key political and ideological questions they were unable to resolve in the brief time they walked the political stage. Some panthers envisioned revolution as a protracted urban guerilla war, others had a sense of a sudden uprising of many cities going over to a seizure of power, and some within their ranks had a more reformist concept that assumed that "black community control" was the real goal.

But the overall point has to be that the Panthers "ideologized the gun back on the political stage in the U.S." (As eldridge cleaver put it.) After the lame and reformist CPUSA had removed any discussion of armed revolution from the political lexicon of the left. And for this the Panthers were loved, and followed.

As for severian's remarks about conflict between political groups -- he puts the burden of this on the Panthers, and says that if they hadn't had a wrong line the FBI couldn't have exploited it. Actually, if you look at the history of the conflict between the US organization (ron karenga's United Slaves) and the Panthers, you will see that the Panthers were attacked by US (at the instigation of the FBI's cointelpro). It was the Panther leaders in LA Bunchy Carter and John Huggins that were assassinated. Blaming the Panthers for this seems rather upsidedown to me.

And, in fact, they worked hard in many cases to build unity among diverse forces opposing the system. Fred Hampton's work with the street gangs in Chicago is an example. But there are many such examples.

Severian points to the Panther Lumpen line in a critical way -- and says they were not based among "black workers". This is a little confused, even if the confusion is understandable. Some points on this:

The Panthers had their own special definition of Lumpen -- that included a lot more than "the criminal element." They included among the lumpen groups likethe permanently unemployed, people on welfare, youth etc. And so, when they said "rely on the lumpen" they were talking both about people living on the illegal side BUT ALSO the more impoverished sections of the working class.

And in fact, many of those sections of the people they are pointing to ARE among the most important parts of the proletariat (working class) that a genuine revolutionary movement should be rooted among.

And really, it is worth bringiing out now what we can learn from the Panthers and their example (both their strengths and their shortcomings).

Because what stands out is their real and fierce determination to oppose oppression, and to aim for revolution, with great self-sacrifice and daring.

And, what stands out too, is the need to go more deeply into the revolutionary science of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism -- to actually solve the key questions of revolution in a country like this (who to be rooted among, how to prepare for revolutionary opportunities, whether to organize along national or multinational lines) etc.

[guerillablack]

It has nothing to do with biology, but history.

[romanm]

The BPP's understanding of Marxist-Leninism is better than most organizations claiming to be communist today. Check out MIM's BPP newspaper archive

http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/bpp/


Articles from The Black Panther, 1967 - 1970

* A Pig May 1967
* NEW! NEW!"Information" by Eldridge Cleaver Sept. 28, 1968. pp. 6, 14.
* NEW! NEW!Imperialism, Economics and Heart Transplants Oct. 5, 1968.
* Tirana Denounces Soviet-U.S. Intrigue Oct. 12, 1968. p. 8
* Anti-U.S. Rallies Oct. 19, 1968. p. 4
* NEW!Mexican Student Struggle Shakes Latin AmericaOct. 19, 1968. p. 3, 9.
* In Defense of Self-Defense Nov. 16, 1968. p. 12
* New Zealand Hails Triumph of China's Cultural Revolution Dec. 21, 1968. p. 18
* Mauritanian People Dec. 21, 1968. p. 18
* Reparations for Vietnam Jan. 4, 1969. p. 7
* Indian Magazine Denounces Revisionism Jan. 4, 1969. p. 8
* Water Shortage in India Jan. 4, 1969. p. 8
* Japanese Students Jan. 4, 1969. p. 8
* Naga revolutionary struggle inside India Jan. 4, 1969. p. 8
* NEW! NEW!Peking Builds Largest Tanzania Textile MillJan. 15, 1969, p. 3
* Panther Purge Jan. 25, 1969. p. 17
* What is Ultra-Democracy? Feb. 2, 1969. p. 14
* NEW! NEW!AFRICAN PATRIOTIC ARMED STRUGGLE GROWS IN STRENGTH Feb. 17, 1969, p. 14
* NEW! NEW!The True Culture of Africa and Africans Feb. 17, 1969, p. 15-17
* Fifth Anniversary of the Zanzibar Revolution Feb. 17, 1969. p. 17
* Message from Huey - Taped in Prison Mar. 3, 1969. p. 2
* Colombian People's Liberation Army Mar. 3, 1969. p. 6
* Washington/Moscow Collaboration Intensified Mar. 3, 1969. p. 8
* Cultural Nationalism Attacked in Emory Douglas Speech March, 1969
* NEW! NEW!South West Africa follows Chairman Mao, March 16, 1969, pp. 12-13.
* U.S. Imperialism is Dying Mar. 16, 1969. p. 15
* NEW! NEW!Black capitalism by Landon Williams Mar. 23, 1969, p. 2-3
* Nuclear Fraud Betrays World's Peoples' Interest Mar. 31, 1969. p. 11
* Inducing and Forcing Arab People to Surrender Mar. 31, 1969. p. 15
* Indonesia Mar. 31, 1969. p. 15
* Serving the People Apr. 6, 1969. p. 14
* Imperialism, White Chauvinism and PL Apr. 20, 1969. p. 7
* Excerpt of "An Interview With the Chief of Staff David Hilliard Apr. 20, 1969. p. 18
* Why We Support China Apr. 20, 1969. p. 20
* Statement by the Central Committee of the Black Panther Party Apr. 27, 1969. p. 14
* Revolutionary Heroes May 11, 1969. p. 4
* Black Panther Revolutionary Wedding May 11, 1969. p. 7
* Republic of New Africa Denounces Ron Everett (Karenga) May 11, 1969. p. 7
* Chairman Bobby Speaks at May Day Rally to Free Huey May 11, 1969. p. 11.
* Persecution of the Young Lords May 19, 1969. p. 14
* Young Lord Murdered by Off Duty Pig May 19, 1969. p. 14
* Open Letter to Ronald Reagan May 31, 1969. p. 14
* Universities Belong to the People June 14, 1969. p. 17
* Peru Middle Class Nationalizes Oil June 21, 1969. p. 17
* Swedish Government Supports U.S. Aggression July 19, 1969. p. 9
* Boston Purge July 19, 1969. p. 13
* Field Marshall Don Cox at the Conference July 26, 1969. p. 11
* The PLP vs. the People Aug. 2, 1969. p. 9
* Message to Revolutionary Women
* The Black Panther: Mirror of the PeopleJanuary 17, 1970

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 12:37 PM
In fact, the panthers saw armed self-defense as part of their preparation for armed revolution, and they believed that there might be a chance to make such a revolution in the U.S. in the period ahead of them.

If that's true, they were wrong.

And, like other people who don't know what time it is, they made serious tactical mistakes and got themselves squished. The art of politics consists largely of knowing what to do now. If you don't know what kind of political period you're in, you're gonna mess up bad.


As for severian's remarks about conflict between political groups -- he puts the burden of this on the Panthers, and says that if they hadn't had a wrong line the FBI couldn't have exploited it. Actually, if you look at the history of the conflict between the US organization (ron karenga's United Slaves) and the Panthers, you will see that the Panthers were attacked by US (at the instigation of the FBI's cointelpro). It was the Panther leaders in LA Bunchy Carter and John Huggins that were assassinated. Blaming the Panthers for this seems rather upsidedown to me.

Well before that the Panthers felt it was OK to get thuggish on competing groups (starting with others using the Panther name.) And of course there's the internal faction fight thuggishness which it'd be hard for you to explain away in this fashion.

Part of the legacy of Stalinism, specifically Maoism. Teaches (by example) that the thing to do, if you have a disagreement is to label the other people counterrevolutionary maggots, shout them down to keep their views from being heard, and if practical put them up against a wall.


And in fact, many of those sections of the people they are pointing to ARE among the most important parts of the proletariat (working class) that a genuine revolutionary movement should be rooted among.

Yeah, well, they didn't make a distinction between actual lumpen and chronically unemployed workers then. May I point out Sundiata Acoli also regards the recruitment of lumpen as a problem. This is one of the areas where I agree with the critique of this ex-Panther.

[flyby]

Originally posted by Severian+May 19 2005, 09:14 AM--> (Severian @ May 19 2005, 09:14 AM)
[email protected] 18 2005, 12:37 PM
In fact, the panthers saw armed self-defense as part of their preparation for armed revolution, and they believed that there might be a chance to make such a revolution in the U.S. in the period ahead of them.

If that's true, they were wrong. [/b]
This is an important question, and one we don't agree on.

It is true that, for various reasons, a revolutionary situation did not emerge in the U.S. during the 1960s and 70s. But the Panthers and Maoists like Bob Avakian were not wrong for thinking it was a possibility.

Things could have turned out differently.

And it was not wrong at all to consider the struggle people were engaged in as opening preparations for a serious attempt at power.

In fact, those who simplistically think a revolutionary opening is impossible, will never see it when it actually emerges.

And if even more important now: the revolutionary work that is done now is part of what makes a future revolutionary situation possible -- since the emergence and strengthening of a vanguard party, and the emergence and maturation of a revolutoinary section of the people are all key conditions for a revolutoinary situation where a real challenge for power beocmes possible.

[flyby]

Well before that the Panthers felt it was OK to get thuggish on competing groups (starting with others using the Panther name.) And of course there's the internal faction fight thuggishness which it'd be hard for you to explain away in this fashion. Part of the legacy of Stalinism, specifically Maoism.

This is an example of the mechanical formulaic thinking that i always need to point out and criticize.

The panthers were formed by people with a lot of experience in street life -- and many of them brought the methods and outlooks of that life into politics with them.

To blame that on stalin (let alone Mao!) is kinda bizarre and backwards.

And also, it seems wierd for you to imagine that we can build a real movement, deep among the people (with all their ocmplex outlooks and baggage) that doesn't also have mixed in with it some of the contradictory behavior the people bring with them.

A movement of black youth (or white proletarian youth for that matter) where people sometimes get wacked in the head for bullshit.... and where we don't have to struggle repeatedlyt for correct methods to dominate and lead....hmmmm, does that shock you?

Exactly which proletariat are you looking at? Which world are you organizing in?

And rather obviously, if you look at the methods and life of the Maoists themselves (including specifically the thirty years of the RCP and its many internal struggles) you can see that there is nothing Maoist about "thuggishness."

As for your charge that Maoism "teaches (by example) that the thing to do, if you have a disagreement is to label the other people counterrevolutionary maggots, shout them down to keep their views from being heard, and if practical put them up against a wall."

Well, anyone who has the slightest experience with the RCP, knows that the approach and method they fight for is completely the opposite of that.

The policy of the RCP is openly to fight for open debate, to argue that issues should be joined "on the high plane of two line struggle" -- that people should focus on cardinal issues of line that are crucial to making revolution, and not descend into name-calling or crude smears.

Just look for example at the way I treat you -- you and i don't agree on much. Have you ever seen me try to label you "counterrevolutionary maggot"? Or have i tried to dissect and struggle with your views in ways you and i and others can learn from?

Are you claiming I would have you "shut up" if I could? When you posted on http://awip.proboards23.com did the maoist moderators there shut you up and ban you?

And if not, gee, isn't that all an example that your allegations are based on prejudices and mechanical assumptions?

Mao (and maoists) long argued that it is wrong to treat "contradictions among the people" the same way we treat "contradictions between the people and the enemy." This means opposing the use of violence to settle disputes among the people (and certainly among revolutionaries!)

In short, everything you say is contradicted by the real experience everyone here has with real Maoists -- both in online discussion and in the offline practice of the RCP.

I wrote: "And in fact, many of those sections of the people the Panthers were pointing to ARE among the most important parts of the proletariat (working class) that a genuine revolutionary movement should be rooted among.

You answered: ""yeah, well, they didn't make a distinction between actual lumpen and chronically unemployed workers then. May I point out Sundiata Acoli also regards the recruitment of lumpen as a problem. This is one of the areas where I agree with the critique of this ex-Panther."

This is confused, though we agree (on the factual matter) that the Panthers didn't make a distinction between the actual lumpen and chronically unemployed workers.

But the problem was not "recruitment of the lumpen" but the fact that the thousand of Black youth poured into the Panthers -- often without sufficient transformation into revolutionaries and communists.

There is nothing wrong (at all!) with recruiting people who have led life on the illegal side of things -- there is certainly nothing wrong with prisoners joining the revolution, and even communist organizations.

Lots of youth in the proletariat have "one foot in each camp" -- pulled sometimes into the illegal economy and sometimes into the drudgery of wage slavery. And winning over these youth in large numbers is a key part of bringing to life a truly "revolutionary people' that can be a backbone force for revolution.

The Panthers were actually inspiring in how they recruited and trained such youth. I have sat in Panther study classes where people literally learned to read by going through the Panther Paper or the red book -- word by word, line by line.

The way politics came to life for these youth, the way the Panthers connected with their deepest dreams of a fearless resistance to the system, and revolutionary dreams of liberation -- these are all things we can learn from (deeply, deeply).

And so i don't think supperficial "tsk tsk-ing" about "lumpen" youth or factually confused assumptions about "thuggishness" really get to the heart of any of this.