why stalin wasn't anti semite

[new democracy]

if you read the title you will say:"oh my god! nd become a stalinist!!!". well i don't. i still think stalin was a mass murderer monster. but, i saw that some of you say that stalin was anti semite because in 1,952 some jews along with non jews were purged. i have the proof that stalin wasn't an anti semite. i read from a book called "encyclopedic lexicon for people" that one of stalin best friends was jewish.here is the biography of that guy. lazar kaganobich(1,893-1,991): communist leader in the soviet union. born to a jewish family and when he was young he was a worker. in 1,911 he joined the bolsheviks. in 1,920 he became prime minster of tashkant(probably i wrote that with typos). his successes in enforcing soviet rule their impressed stalin. he got more and more power. in 1,930 k' was already a member in the politburo.and he was the head of the party in moscow he was responsible to build the subway. he always supported stalin and together with molotov helped him to make the big purge in the 1,930's. he was a good friend of stalin until stalin death. k oppose khrushchev de stalinistia and in 1,957 was thrown from all his jobs in the government and in 1,964 he was expelled from the party. i don't justify stalin and his atrocities, but i just want to point out that he wasn't an anti semite

[Reuben]

Stalin WAS an anti-semite. His favourite euphemism with which he often used to attack jews was 'rootless cosmopolitans'.

He purged yiddish writers and jews.


That fact that he had a jewish friend doesnt make it impossile for him to have a general negative attitude towarsds the jews. In fact it has actually become a joke the way racists constantly say s'some of my best friends are jewish/black' etc.
MY DAD used to work with an NF member , who was fine with my dad and had Blacks as his best drinking mates, but this did not stop him displaying anti-jewsish and anti-black racism on a political level.

[new democracy]

i know, but it is kind of contradict the story of that jewish stalinist.

[new democracy]

ignore this one i didn't read your whole post. in the part when you said "That fact that he had a jewish friend doesnt make it impossile for him to have a general negative attitude towarsds the jews." from some reason it looked like your signature.

(Edited by new democracy at 12:20 am on Sep. 7, 2002)

[Reuben]

i dont se how stalins relationship with individual jews can mitigate the anti-semitism exposed by what has been mentioned by me in the past, and the fact that he sent troops in to burn down the Yiddish Library in Briobidzhan

[new democracy]

i just think it is weird that a jewish man will be such a loyal friend to an anti semite. and Reuben, shana tova.

[Reuben]

shana tova comrade

[new democracy]

and shana tova to everyone in che lives(except lenin, yuriandrophob, thine stalin stormin norman and brian)!!!!

[Conghaileach]

from Reuben:
He purged yiddish writers and jews.

Not exclusively though.

[Comrade Marcel]

These people where not just innocent Jewish writers, I take it they where involved in counter-revolutionary action & writings.

I am sorry but I am just so sick of hearing people say "anti-semite". It's gotten really old, the holocost was like 50 years ago now but still anyone who kills someone who just happends to be Jewish is automaticly an anti-semite. If you support Palestine your an anti-semite, if you call Sharon a facist your an anti-semite.... Yet Zionists are some of the biggest racist/facists on the planet.

Though I do agree, just because his best friend is Jewish doesn't mean he didn't secretly hate Jews (I don't believe he did) as a race of people, but as an organized religion or counter revolutionary movement; in which case people of any race or religion would be treated the same.

That being said, Hitler's best cook was a Jewish lady but that did not stop him from killing and presecuting Jewish people.

[Reuben]

I am sorry but I am just so sick of hearing people say "anti-semite". It's gotten really old, the holocost was like 50 years ago now but still anyone who kills someone who just happends to be Jewish is automaticly an anti-semite.

That is a very ignorant comment. Under stalin JEwish cultural leaders were purged on Masse, i dint say it was exclusively jews but there was evidence.

And i really object to you saying youve got sick of people talking about anti-semitism 'because he holocaust was like 50 years ago'. DO you think nothing has happened to the jews since.


IN refer to your comments (and those of CIARAN) I was not simply basing what i said on him killing people who happened to be Jewish.

I was basing it on the fact that he claimed that a "JEwish doctors conspiracy' was trying to kill him , on the fact that he had burnt down the Yiddish Library in Briobidzhan (yiddish was the national language of the jewish people) and that he didnt just purge people who happened to be jewish. In fact the trumped accusations which were used to purge people suchas Itsik Feffer were a that they were conspiring to form a jewish break away lland in Crimea. THis was completely insubstantiated.


AND THINK BEFORE YOU INSENSITIVELY tell people not to go on about anti-semitism 'because the holocaust was 50 years ago'

[new democracy]

since zionists, who were very unpopular among jews at the time, were trying to relive hebrew, talking yiddish was an anti zionist step(i think, i am not sure).

[Reuben]

you know alot nd, thats true.

in Israel, Yiddish was loked down on and oppressed, it was seen as diaspora cultura and a language of oppression which people did not want to associate with.

Identifying with Yiddish was identifying with jewish diaspora culture as opposed to an israel-centric jewish identity.

The Bund who were opponents of zionists always promoted it.

[new democracy]

the bund. i read about them. it was a marxist jewish party that fight for jews right in europe. they were very powerful back than.

[ArgueEverything]

actually, stalin DID target jews exclusively. not in the sense that all his victims were jews, but he certainly did see jews as the biggest threat to his power.

It all goes back to trotsky (who was, of course, born a jew) and also i suppose the fact that a large number of the intellectuals in Russia were Jewish. the Intellectuals are always the first to speak out against oppression, which is why stalin killed them.

also, when stalin was in charge of the "marxist" rewspaper Pravda, he frequently included antisemitic articles, some of which he wrote himself.

i think stalin was an anti-semite. i also agree with reuben that its become a joke of late when ppl say "im not racist/sexist/homosexual, my best friend is jewish/black/female/gay etc"

[Comrade Marcel]

Quote: from Reuben on 12:09 am on Sep. 8, 2002
I am sorry but I am just so sick of hearing people say "anti-semite". It's gotten really old, the holocost was like 50 years ago now but still anyone who kills someone who just happends to be Jewish is automaticly an anti-semite.

That is a very ignorant comment. Under stalin JEwish cultural leaders were purged on Masse, i dint say it was exclusively jews but there was evidence.

And i really object to you saying youve got sick of people talking about anti-semitism 'because he holocaust was like 50 years ago'. DO you think nothing has happened to the jews since.


IN refer to your comments (and those of CIARAN) I was not simply basing what i said on him killing people who happened to be Jewish.

I was basing it on the fact that he claimed that a "JEwish doctors conspiracy' was trying to kill him , on the fact that he had burnt down the Yiddish Library in Briobidzhan (yiddish was the national language of the jewish people) and that he didnt just purge people who happened to be jewish. In fact the trumped accusations which were used to purge people suchas Itsik Feffer were a that they were conspiring to form a jewish break away lland in Crimea. THis was completely insubstantiated.


AND THINK BEFORE YOU INSENSITIVELY tell people not to go on about anti-semitism 'because the holocaust was 50 years ago'


I live in the most Jewish neighborhood in my city, and as I walk around here all I see is signs that say "support the state of Isreal" "Isreal is calling it is time to answer" "Send money to persecuted Jews". and if anyone has an opinion againts any of this, they are anti-semetic.

There is no room for nationalism or religiousism in Marxist socialism, of any sort. I do not believe that Stalin targeted Jews specifically because they where Jewish, but he targeted a group of people who would have been target just the same if say they had been Muslim or Christian. There was for years counter revolutionary Jewish "Refusnik" movements in the Soviet Union, it's so easy to just turn around and say your enemies are racist.

Stalin had to hold together a state with so many various nationalities, and various counter revolutionries, what would you do?

I am not a Stalinist, but I am really sick of Anti-Stalinism & Anti-Semetism. A good chunk of the Anti-Semitism that exists in the world today was created by Jews themselves with there whole Zionist movement, have you ever read any of Sharon's interviews/speaches? As for Stalin, he died like 40 years ago, it is time to stop putting the blame on him for everything that went wrong with the world when we know the real evil is the Imperialists. Stalin built a super power in the Soviet Union, he was a great leader & yes he killed people but I do not believe he killed 40 million there is no evidence of this.

The main problem I have with Stalinism is the theory of socialism in one country, as I do not believe it can work especially when spawned from a backwards economy.

[Reuben]

[qupte]A good chunk of the Anti-Semitism that exists in the world today was created by Jews themselves[/[quote]

You disgust me. Racists must take responsibility for racism.

[Reuben]

If a black person or a number of black people are behaving badly, we do not say they are creating racism. WHat we say is that people with ignorant racist mindsets respond to that in a racil manner.

[Reuben]

wh y the hell are you sking if i have ever read what sharon has said. For your info im a pro-palestinian activist in Britain.

[new democracy]

Marcel this is disgusting. i am jewish and i don't go like "support israel" or shit like that. i am not even a zionist. and what is your main problem with stalinism? the idea of socialism in one country. you have no problem with the idea of "kill them!!! kill them all!!!".
"I do not believe he killed 40 million there is no evidence of this. "
that's like deny the holocaust or death's cause by american imperialism.

[Comrade Marcel]

Quote: from Reuben on 11:07 pm on Sep. 8, 2002
[qupte]A good chunk of the Anti-Semitism that exists in the world today was created by Jews themselves[/[quote]

You disgust me. Racists must take responsibility for racism.



Racists do not become racist by themselves, there are almost always factors that fuel towards the spawning of racism within a person.

& in my opinion you hold on to a sort of nationalism, & you are spreading counter-revolutionary thought.

These Yiddish writers in the Soviet union were not just trying to peacefully exsit, but create a counter culture againts the Soviet state. I don't think they should have been executed, but we are talking about Stalinist Russia here, what did they expect a pat on the back?

We have Zionists that go around, they think Jews are better as a race & more superior to other races/religions, this creates hatred in return. Fortunately this is not the majority of Jewish people.

I have no hatred towards Jewish people, but religion as a whole is something that needs to be abolished in order for socialism to succed. Especialy Neo-Zionism as it is the most pure form of facism on the planet currently.

And before you jump on me about that, I know the difference between the Zionism that started before WW II that helped build the Kibuttzim in Isreal & the facist national-socialist neo-Zionism that exists in Isreal & North America today.

If you can't drop your religion & Yiddish nationalism then you are no real socialist. The Kibuttzim are not real communes, Isreal is a facist state that has killed & kidnapped countless Arabs from Palestine & elsewhere, neo-Zionists in North America go around shouting at young girls leaving Palestinian schools & community centres & other incidents. That is going to create hatred.

I don't hate them, I just look a the facts.

[new democracy]

i am against zionism because it is separate jewish workers from other workers, not only in palestine but in the entire world. religion is not so bad, i heard jesus was a commie.

[Comrade Marcel]

Quote: from new democracy on 11:20 pm on Sep. 8, 2002
Marcel this is disgusting. i am jewish and i don't go like "support israel" or shit like that. i am not even a zionist. and what is your main problem with stalinism? the idea of socialism in one country. you have no problem with the idea of "kill them!!! kill them all!!!".
"I do not believe he killed 40 million there is no evidence of this. "
that's like deny the holocaust or death's cause by american imperialism.


Oh, there we go again.... did I say anything about how many dide in the holocaust? did I claim to be a "holocaust denier"? Why do you fel the need to bring up that? Is it because anyone that even remotely criticizes actions of some Jewish people they must be labled anti-semetic?

So you believe Stalin killed 40 million people? I have looked at the mixture of "estimates" of how many people died under Stalin's direct cause & it seems to me that it would be logical to assume all these estimates to be bourgeois lies.

I think that half the things Stalin did that people criticize him for where perfectly legitimate actions.

I never said every Jewish person is a Zionist, or that every person of Jewish decent even practices Judaism!

You automaticly assume things in your quest to protect your nationalist/racial identity. This will be your downfall not mine. I think people should have a right to criticize the actions of religious movements without being deemed an anti-semetic, racist, or whatever; that's all.


(Edited by Comrade Marcel at 11:42 pm on Sep. 8, 2002)

[Comrade Marcel]

Quote: from new democracy on 11:31 pm on Sep. 8, 2002
i am against zionism because it is separate jewish workers from other workers, not only in palestine but in the entire world. religion is not so bad, i heard jesus was a commie.


You are right about the first part, but yes religion is bad.

It pratices in general: Homophobia, male chauvanism(sp?), prejudism, supresses the right of choice, etc.

Jesus was not a Communist but a "Jehovaist-Socialist", he (assuming he did exist) had his own agenda, was not the real son of "god" at all & was in fact Jewish (from Isaac) if I am not mistaken (it always amkes me laugh when "Christians" who hate jews like those of the KKK have this pointed out to them).

(Edited by Comrade Marcel at 11:40 pm on Sep. 8, 2002)

[new democracy]

stalin didn't kill them directly, he starve them to death, and on purpose. i didn't say that because you criticize some jews you are anti semite, i just said that denying stalin killing is the same as denying the holocaust in the terms of denying the deaths of millions in a stupid way.

[Reuben]

its funny that you should go on about zionism and the jewish given that both the people you are arguing with are as far as I know secular anti-zionists (i think nd is secular)


with respect you are talking shit about yiddish writers. THey were simply writing in their mother and if that in the soviet amounts to creating a counter culture well thats more of an indivtment of the Soviet systm then anything.


PS nd, how dare you mention the holocaust you manipulative little jew :-)

[new democracy]

i heard that jesus was a commie and even if it not true, i still think that religion isn't bad. i am not going to argue that, because it will be like: religion bad. no it isn't. yes it is. no it isn't. yes it is.

[new democracy]

and yes, i am secular. i don't see religion as bad, but i am secular.

[Comrade Marcel]

Quote: from new democracy on 11:41 pm on Sep. 8, 2002
stalin didn't kill them directly, he starve them to death, and on purpose. i didn't say that because you criticize some jews you are anti semite, i just said that denying stalin killing is the same as denying the holocaust in the terms of denying the deaths of millions in a stupid way.


I never denied Stalin killing any Jews no did I? I just said I don't think he killed them just because they are Jewish, (can point out anywhere where I said Stalin didn't kill anyone?) and infact you are the one that started this thread with evidence supporting the claim that Stalin was not Anti-Semetic.

BTW, if you think Stalin "killed" 40 million people, how many of these do you believe to have been Jewish? Based on the fact that you have not presented your evidence or even your views to me of what you "think" how can you compare my statement with anything even remotely having to do with the holocaust?

That being said, Stalin should have never made a pact with Hitler. That was like making a deal with the devil. I am not going to deny Stalin did some evil & stupid shit, but almost every state leader in history has as well. It's time to drop the Stalinist witch hunt and move on to more productiveness.

(Edited by Comrade Marcel at 11:57 pm on Sep. 8, 2002)

[Comrade Marcel]

-----


(Edited by Comrade Marcel at 11:56 pm on Sep. 8, 2002)

[Comrade Marcel]

Quote: from Reuben on 11:42 pm on Sep. 8, 2002


with respect you are talking shit about yiddish writers. THey were simply writing in their mother and if that in the soviet amounts to creating a counter culture well thats more of an indivtment of the Soviet systm then anything.
-)


I don't think you can say for sure that is true. How do you know what they where "simply" doing and what they where trying to create. It is ovious that thjey had certain interests, i.e. preserving their culture & ideals, such as religion which would be counter Marxist actions. Do I think it is right that they should have been exectued? No! But I would consider sending them to excile especialy if I am trying to hold on to a revolution by pieces of thread with many cisors being held close by.

[Comrade Marcel]

Quote: from new democracy on 11:44 pm on Sep. 8, 2002
i heard that jesus was a commie and even if it not true, i still think that religion isn't bad. i am not going to argue that, because it will be like: religion bad. no it isn't. yes it is. no it isn't. yes it is.


I have no problem in people having a personal belief in "god" or "gods" in whatever format or image it may be. I do however have a problem with organized religion. It is brainwashing at it's finest, it brings along with it many anti-Marxist ideas and brings about counter-revolutionary movements under the guise of missionaires and "freedom" movements.

I don't believe this to be a to be an "A" Verses "B" arguement, rather it is blatent and obvious. Just read the bible, the Koran, the old testament, etc. & any fool can see it conflicts with Marxist ideals!



(Edited by Comrade Marcel at 12:04 am on Sep. 9, 2002)

[new democracy]

camilio torres(colombian che), was a catholic priest that was a member in the colombian national liberation army(eln) and he said that christianity is not only a thing that can go with revolution, but something that make revolution necessary.

[Comrade Marcel]

Quote: from new democracy on 12:10 am on Sep. 9, 2002
camilio torres(colombian che), was a catholic priest that was a member in the colombian national liberation army(eln) and he said that christianity is not only a thing that can go with revolution, but something that make revolution necessary.

There is a big difference between a National Liberation & a Revolution to Marxist Socialism.

The only thing that would be necessary about Christianity in a socialist revolution is the need to abolish it. Christianity preaches Male dominance, Homophobia, superstition(sp?), authoritation under the church, and a host of other things that piss me off just to talk about.

(Edited by Comrade Marcel at 12:15 am on Sep. 9, 2002)

[Reuben]

How do you know what they where "simply" doing and what they where trying to create. It is ovious that thjey had certain interests, i.e. preserving their culture & ideals, such as religion which would be counter Marxist actions

LOL those executed were predominantly if not all atheists, they were not religious. Yiddish was particularly the secular jewish language and had as much right to be preserved as russian

[Reuben]

How do you know what they where "simply" doing and what they where trying to create. It is ovious that thjey had certain interests, i.e. preserving their culture & ideals, such as religion which would be counter Marxist actions

LOL those executed were predominantly if not all atheists, they were not religious. Yiddish was particularly the secular jewish language and had as much right to be preserved as russian

[new democracy]

eln called national liberation army but it's a communist organization.

[Comrade Marcel]

Quote: from Reuben on 12:15 am on Sep. 9, 2002

How do you know what they where "simply" doing and what they where trying to create. It is ovious that thjey had certain interests, i.e. preserving their culture & ideals, such as religion which would be counter Marxist actions

LOL those executed were predominantly if not all atheists, they were not religious. Yiddish was particularly the secular jewish language and had as much right to be preserved as russian

So, if that is true then it leaves about three possible explanations right? Either Stalin had them executed for being Jewish, writing in yiddish (maybe something he did not like?) or both.

But there has to be something more going on here then just simply writing in Yiddish, this is all to simplistic & fits too nice and neatly into an anti-Stalinist agenda. I still do not believe he was anti-semetic.


(Edited by Comrade Marcel at 12:24 am on Sep. 9, 2002)

[Comrade Marcel]

Quote: from new democracy on 12:19 am on Sep. 9, 2002
eln called national liberation army but it's a communist organization.


Well I wouldn't consider that to be very Marxist, both Marx & Lenin clearly stated seperation of church & the state. Religion has no place in Marxism except as a counter revolutionary obstacle.

(Edited by Comrade Marcel at 12:22 am on Sep. 9, 2002)

[Reuben]

why do you think he burnt down the yidish library in Brobidzhan.

It actually fits in well with the wave of Russian nationalism promoted by the soviet authorities in the 50s.

[new democracy]

james conoly was religious.

[Comrade Marcel]

Quote: from Reuben on 12:26 am on Sep. 9, 2002
why do you think he burnt down the yidish library in Brobidzhan.

It actually fits in well with the wave of Russian nationalism promoted by the soviet authorities in the 50s.


It's true that some people have formed National-Socialist ideas in Russia claiming to be Stalinist, and even going as far as to denounce Marxism itself.

There are some screwed up ideologies out there, I think we can atleast agree on that.

[Reuben]

yes but the yiddish library was burnt down by stalin and his authorities along with the russian nationalism (although he ws georgian), not NS groups

[ArgueEverything]

http://www.jhvc.org/video_library/film_det...p%3Fsubject%3D4 (http://www.jhvc.org/video_library/film_detail.php?film_id=209&search_str=content.php%3Fsubject%3D4)

"In 1948 the Soviet Union began an antisemitic campaign....The brilliant actor Solomon Mikhoels, director of the Yiddish State Theatre, who had led the Anti- Fascist Committee, was murdered by the secret police. Soon afterward, hundreds of Soviet Jewish poets, journalists, painters, and musicians were arrested; in 1952 those who survived labor camps were tried, convicted, and executed. In early 1953 came the Doctor’s Plot– accusations that a cabal of Jewish doctors had conspired to murder Soviet leaders through harmful treatments. This “blood libel” reportedly was to have been followed by the exile of the Jewish population to the outer reaches of the country. Only Stalin’s death spared the doctors— and the Jews of Russia. "

[Conghaileach]

from Reuben:
IN refer to your comments (and those of CIARAN) I was not simply basing what i said on him killing people who happened to be Jewish.

I'm not aware of everything Stalin did, but what I was trying to point out (in my usual abstract way) is that Stalin was a fucking psycho. For every Jewish doctor or poet he had purged, he also likely got rid of non-Jewish doctors and poets.

But as I say, I'm not totally aware of everything Stalin did. I could be wrong. For instance, I was unaware of the so-called "Jewish doctors conspiracy" you spoke of.

[new democracy]

i am not sure if stalin was anti semite, but here is a story that says that maybe he wasn't anti semite: my grandmother lived in poland. in 1,939 poland was being conquered by soviet and german armies, my grandmother lived in a part that was conquered by the soviets, but it was about to be given to the germans. so some soviet official said to the jewish community that they could come to the ussr. so my grandmother, along with other jewish refugees, came to the ussr and stayed their until the end of the war. i am not saying that he was not anti semite for sure, but the fact that he saved more jews than the ones that he killed show something.

[ArgueEverything]

Quote: from new democracy on 2:23 pm on Sep. 23, 2002
i am not sure if stalin was anti semite, but here is a story that says that maybe he wasn't anti semite: my grandmother lived in poland. in 1,939 poland was being conquered by soviet and german armies, my grandmother lived in a part that was conquered by the soviets, but it was about to be given to the germans. so some soviet official said to the jewish community that they could come to the ussr. so my grandmother, along with other jewish refugees, came to the ussr and stayed their until the end of the war. i am not saying that he was not anti semite for sure, but the fact that he saved more jews than the ones that he killed show something.

Yeah, but that was just the benevolence of that particular official, it wasn't official Stalinist policy. Never forget that the Nazi-Soviet non-aggression pact was a betrayl of the thousands of communists, many Jewish, who lived throughout Europe and who put their faith in the various Communist parties.