Trotskyism?

[RASH chris]

So I've been spending a lot of time recently, reading and trying to find out where I really stand politically. I am decidedly anti-stalinist, and anti-maoist. And Trotskyism has really been speaking to me lately. I'm considering joining Socialist Action. And I'd just like to hear from some Trotskyists as to why Trotskyism is the "best of the left". And I'd like to hear from people who disagree with Trotskyism. (if you just wanna shoot me a link to some writings that's cool, or if you wanna type something yourself, either way it is greatly appreciated)

Thanks

[SonofRage]

Bolshevism and Stalinism (http://www.marxists.org/archive/mattick-paul/1947/bolshevism-stalinism.htm) by the Council Communist Paul Mattick is a response to Trotsky you may want to check out.

Also Trotsky Protests Too Much (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/goldman/trotskyprotests.html) by Emma Goldman

[Poum_1936]

http://discussion.newyouth.com/showthread....=&threadid=1629 (http://discussion.newyouth.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1629)

Check out the links which POUM posted for great reads on all the myths spouted about Bolshevism, Lenin, and Trotsky and what the real history of Bolshevism is.

Also check out...

In Defence of Marxism (http://www.marxist.com)

Workers International League (WIL) (http://www.socialistappeal.org/)

The WIL is the US section of the international CMI which currently is paying special attention to Venezuela and Pakistan right now.

[ArgueEverything]

I think it's disingenuous to willingly pigeon-hole oneself into any such schools of thought. Why accept the narrow confines of "Trotskyism" (or Leninism, or Maoism, or any other -ism) when you can pick and choose the best of ALL worlds?

[OleMarxco]

"Anti" this and like-that are no fuckin' ideology, it's just more like a hate-feast given' a name. Stick up to something and decide for yourself, and take heed to choosin' a goddamn ideology and then I DON'T mean a goddarn anti-something "ideology"...but more like something, uh, yeah....but you don't have to label yourself. So all my thoughts convey to one thing...and that is... Whatever....Are you just trying to brag ya intellect on'chous or sumthin', no? Then you haf failed! :D

[Redmau5]

What ? Any chance of writing something that makes sense.

[RedLenin]

I really do not think Trotskyism is the best way to go. I firmly believe that all power must rest with the proletariat itself. I myself am a council communist. Trotsky, though i agree with some of his theories, still advocated vanguardism. Vanguardism naturally alientates the workers from the "professional revolutionaries" and creates a hierarchy within the body of the workers. All leaders should be directly elected, mandated, recallable, and on a rotation. It is very important that we excercise a class dictatorship. That means, that the proletariat itself must take control through a very decentralized, democratic state made up of workers and soldiers councils not subbordinate to a higher body of power. We should limit the role of the party simply to that of propaganda, reject all participation in parliment, and look at syndicalism as a way to acheive our goals. I feel that Trotskyism is to authoritarian and, since we are trying to acheive a libertarian society, we cannot use authoritarian means. Means can shape the ends, and that is why we must have a dictatorship of the proletariat consisting of the whole class in the most decentralized, democratic fashion possible.

[RASH chris]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 07:26 PM
I really do not think Trotskyism is the best way to go. I firmly believe that all power must rest with the proletariat itself. I myself am a council communist. Trotsky, though i agree with some of his theories, still advocated vanguardism. Vanguardism naturally alientates the workers from the "professional revolutionaries" and creates a hierarchy within the body of the workers. All leaders should be directly elected, mandated, recallable, and on a rotation. It is very important that we excercise a class dictatorship. That means, that the proletariat itself must take control through a very decentralized, democratic state made up of workers and soldiers councils not subbordinate to a higher body of power. We should limit the role of the party simply to that of propaganda, reject all participation in parliment, and look at syndicalism as a way to acheive our goals. I feel that Trotskyism is to authoritarian and, since we are trying to acheive a libertarian society, we cannot use authoritarian means. Means can shape the ends, and that is why we must have a dictatorship of the proletariat consisting of the whole class in the most decentralized, democratic fashion possible.
Comrade, perhaps you can explain another question for me? (or relay a link for me to read) What are the differences between council communism and anarcho-syndicalism? Or between council communism and DeLeonism? As it seems quite similar to the first, with a few notable differences from the second.

[Poum_1936]

I am no great theorticianon on the subject, but it seems that www.wikipedia.org would have the anwser. Wikipeida as far as I am concerned has rarely been wrong. And council communist's even advocate the "council communist" definition presented by wikipedia.

Also check out..

Paul Mattick (http://marxists.org/archive/mattick-paul/index.htm)

Anton Pannekoek (http://marxists.org/archive/pannekoe/index.htm)

[Black Dagger]

Wikipeida as far as I am concerned has rarely been wrong.

No need to deify, wikipedia is open for any and all to modify, at any time, no questions asked. A lot of the content is biased and contested precisely for this reason. It can be a good source for information, but as with ANY source, everything you read should be held up to critical examination, politics and political material being one of the most obvious examples of subjective content. Grain of salt.

[RedLenin]

Comrade, perhaps you can explain another question for me? (or relay a link for me to read) What are the differences between council communism and anarcho-syndicalism? Or between council communism and DeLeonism? As it seems quite similar to the first, with a few notable differences from the second.

The main difference i can tell is that anarcho-syndicalism is opposed to class supression. Afterall, this is a hierarchy, hence not anarchist. I however see no problem with the hierarchy of the proletariat over the bourgeoisie. Class divisions will not disapear imediately, and that is why class supression is necessary. As far ad Deleonism, the only difference i can see is that not all council communists are syndicalists. Many see unions as tools of reform. I am not too well informed on Deleonism, but perhaps another difference would be that it advocates a more centralized state. Also, bear in mind that council communists are marxists. We follow the philosophy, theory, and economics view of Marx, while rejecting the Leninist ideas of a vanguard party and a centralized state.

[RASH chris]

The main difference i can tell is that anarcho-syndicalism is opposed to class supression. Afterall, this is a hierarchy, hence not anarchist. I however see no problem with the hierarchy of the proletariat over the bourgeoisie. Class divisions will not disapear imediately, and that is why class supression is necessary. As far ad Deleonism, the only difference i can see is that not all council communists are syndicalists. Many see unions as tools of reform. I am not too well informed on Deleonism, but perhaps another difference would be that it advocates a more centralized state. Also, bear in mind that council communists are marxists. We follow the philosophy, theory, and economics view of Marx, while rejecting the Leninist ideas of a vanguard party and a centralized state.

How can there be class supression if there is no state? Council Communists are not syndicalists yet they propose worker run councils? Is that not syndicalism by another name? Do council communists believe in the existence of a party and a very weak (parris comune type) state?

[SonofRage]

The basica difference between Syndicalism and Council Communism is that Revolutionary Syndicalists want to build revolutionary unions now while Council Communists usuallly think that if they were built now they were inherently become reformist. For the same reason, some Council Commies don't support labor unions.

[RedLenin]

Do council communists believe in the existence of a party and a very weak (parris comune type) state?

Yes. The state I envision is a directly democratic decentralized state composed of workers councils. The only thing that makes it a state is that is a tool of class oppression. As far as the party, I believe the only use of it is for propaganda pouposes. Realize that when I say party I am refering to a political organization with a program. I do, however, reject all participation in parliment.

[Djehuti]

The council communist view on the state is not very far from Marx' own (I would say that council communism is very close to Marx in general, orthodox without being dogmatic.). They were enemies to the idea that parties (such as the bolshevik party) should posess the power of the state, instead they ment that a system of workers councils (soviets) should constitute the proletarian state. Well, council communists very often pointed out that the working class itself had decide its way of organization, (no one should tell them how to organize; in a party, council, union, etc) but by studying revolutionary events around the world and how the working class had chosen to organize itself, the council communists believed that the workers councils were the working class' most prefered way of organization.

The council communists saw that the task of the parties or socialist/communist moinorites were to spread propaganda, learnings, experiences and information within the class, not to seize the political power. They also meant that it was totally wrong for socialists/communists to work within the bourgeoise parliaments, and they did also reject the unions as a way of offensive class struggle. They view the unions as a capitalist phenomenon, an organization for the selling of the commodity labour power; an organization for the workers in their function as variable capital, but against the workers in their function as the revolutionary subject.

Council communists also are against all forms of nationalism (including all nationalist liberation movements). They advocace the direct struggle of the working class (and are thus against all struggle through representatives, like parties and unions, etc), and they put all focus on communist class struggle.

Put short, the council communists advocate a very strong proletarian state based on the workers council.



I see myself as a left communist, and council communist is a sort of left communism.
You can read about left communism here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_communism

Also check out the great left communist sites http://www.prole.info and http://www.geocities.com/aufheben2

[workersunity]

I am a deleonist, and the main difference of that and say syndicalism is that in syndicalism ex... IWW, there are no political or religious goals, The deleonist/ SIU (Socialist Industrial Unionism) says that the union must also be political, and through the union is how they will get thier liberation. Industrial unionism,not trade unionism, we want a REAL union!

[SonofRage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 01:50 AM
I am a deleonist, and the main difference of that and say syndicalism is that in syndicalism ex... IWW, there are no political or religious goals, The deleonist/ SIU (Socialist Industrial Unionism) says that the union must also be political, and through the union is how they will get thier liberation. Industrial unionism,not trade unionism, we want a REAL union!
I think the differences are a bit deeper than that:

Politics vs. Syndicalism: a Case Study of the IWW (http://www.iww.org/culture/articles/Gaylord1.shtml)

[Mischa]

<- A Trotskyist who just happens to be in Socialist Action. Interesting I should find another one scoping out the party. Small world.

One thing I&#39;d like to respond to...


I really do not think Trotskyism is the best way to go. I firmly believe that all power must rest with the proletariat itself. I myself am a council communist. Trotsky, though i agree with some of his theories, still advocated vanguardism. Vanguardism naturally alientates the workers from the "professional revolutionaries" and creates a hierarchy within the body of the workers.

One of the most misinterpreted theories of Trotsky&#39;s, and of Lenin&#39;s, is that of the vanguard party. Maoists follow a caricature of this, in essence, substituting themselves for the working class. Which is what Lenin and Trotsky says are bad, and warns against. We advocate &#39;professional revolutionaries&#39;, so the working class doesn&#39;t have to reinvent the wheel every time they go through a class struggle. We don&#39;t substitute ourselves for the working class, but follow them every step of the way, champion their struggles, and attempt to empower them to fight their own battles. The best a vanguard party can do is win the respect of the working class, and point them in the right direction.

A vanguard party isn&#39;t an armed band of guerillas like in Nepal or something.


All leaders should be directly elected, mandated, recallable, and on a rotation. It is very important that we excercise a class dictatorship. That means, that the proletariat itself must take control through a very decentralized, democratic state made up of workers and soldiers councils not subbordinate to a higher body of power.

I agree, and my party agrees 100%


We should limit the role of the party simply to that of propaganda, reject all participation in parliment, and look at syndicalism as a way to acheive our goals. I feel that Trotskyism is to authoritarian and, since we are trying to acheive a libertarian society, we cannot use authoritarian means.

When you limit the party to propoganda, you&#39;re essentially castrating it. Doing just propoganda work is like shouting into the wind. Who is going to listen to you if you haven&#39;t joined their picket lines, their rallies, sit in on their meetings, engage in discussion with them?


Means can shape the ends, and that is why we must have a dictatorship of the proletariat consisting of the whole class in the most decentralized, democratic fashion possible.

And, I agree again.

By the way, I know the person who updates our website, and our webpage does kick ass. A lot of time has been put into it. If you&#39;re curious about the party, check us out:

http://www.socialistaction.org/

[Lamanov]

I have to say only one thing just so you don&#39;t get dogmatic about anything.
Leninism is a synthesis of Lenin&#39;s scientific conceptions, and not his political work as a chief of the party. Every unscientific or politicized Lenin&#39;s formula should not be included in scientific conceptions of Leninism. Same thing with Trotskyism.

If you want to know for yourself I suggest you read his works, and then abstract what you think it&#39;s scientifically applyable [or better yet : what is marxist]

Trotsky - library (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/index.htm)

[Poum_1936]

<- A Trotskyist who just happens to be in Socialist Action.

I do believe the WIL is trying to get Socialist Action to help on the Hands of Venezuela campaign, what do you think of the idea?

[Mischa]

Hey DJ, was that post for me?


I do believe the WIL is trying to get Socialist Action to help on the Hands of Venezuela campaign, what do you think of the idea?

Sorry I&#39;m not sure what you&#39;re referring to, if this is in San Frasisco, then that&#39;s why, I live in Minnesota. But do you mean just general support for Chavez, or are you talking about the youth festival? (http://www.usnpc.net) If it&#39;s the youth festival, we have a contingent of SA&#39;ers, and YSA&#39;ers going.

[romanm]

I would recommend Harry Haywood&#39;s autobiograpyhy _Black Bolshevik_, specifically the chapters on Trotsky, Stalin, and the national question.

[red_che]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 04:07 AM
So I&#39;ve been spending a lot of time recently, reading and trying to find out where I really stand politically. I am decidedly anti-stalinist, and anti-maoist. And Trotskyism has really been speaking to me lately. I&#39;m considering joining Socialist Action. And I&#39;d just like to hear from some Trotskyists as to why Trotskyism is the "best of the left". And I&#39;d like to hear from people who disagree with Trotskyism. (if you just wanna shoot me a link to some writings that&#39;s cool, or if you wanna type something yourself, either way it is greatly appreciated)

Thanks
While you are a Trotskyite, I am a Maoist and a Stalinist. All I suggest you to read are the volumes on Mao Selected Works or Stalin&#39;s Foundations of Leninism just for comparison and analysis. And also, read more on Lenin&#39;s works and compare it to Trotsky, you can see there is a big difference on their principles.

[RASH chris]

Originally posted by red_che+May 19 2005, 08:40 AM--> (red_che @ May 19 2005, 08:40 AM)
[email protected] 6 2005, 04:07 AM
So I&#39;ve been spending a lot of time recently, reading and trying to find out where I really stand politically. I am decidedly anti-stalinist, and anti-maoist. And Trotskyism has really been speaking to me lately. I&#39;m considering joining Socialist Action. And I&#39;d just like to hear from some Trotskyists as to why Trotskyism is the "best of the left". And I&#39;d like to hear from people who disagree with Trotskyism. (if you just wanna shoot me a link to some writings that&#39;s cool, or if you wanna type something yourself, either way it is greatly appreciated)

Thanks
While you are a Trotskyite, I am a Maoist and a Stalinist. All I suggest you to read are the volumes on Mao Selected Works or Stalin&#39;s Foundations of Leninism just for comparison and analysis. And also, read more on Lenin&#39;s works and compare it to Trotsky, you can see there is a big difference on their principles. [/b]
I actually decided Trotskyism wasn&#39;t for me. Though I think you&#39;d be pleased to know I have been reading a lot of papers from the RCP and I talk a lot to a Maoist friend of mine, and I think I understand Maoism a lot better. But that doesn&#39;t make it appeal to me anymore. I am definitely a "left communist" and I&#39;d say with council communist leanings.

[red_che]

Originally posted by anarchopunkchris+May 19 2005, 02:40 PM--> (anarchopunkchris @ May 19 2005, 02:40 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 08:40 AM

[email protected] 6 2005, 04:07 AM
So I&#39;ve been spending a lot of time recently, reading and trying to find out where I really stand politically. I am decidedly anti-stalinist, and anti-maoist. And Trotskyism has really been speaking to me lately. I&#39;m considering joining Socialist Action. And I&#39;d just like to hear from some Trotskyists as to why Trotskyism is the "best of the left". And I&#39;d like to hear from people who disagree with Trotskyism. (if you just wanna shoot me a link to some writings that&#39;s cool, or if you wanna type something yourself, either way it is greatly appreciated)

Thanks
While you are a Trotskyite, I am a Maoist and a Stalinist. All I suggest you to read are the volumes on Mao Selected Works or Stalin&#39;s Foundations of Leninism just for comparison and analysis. And also, read more on Lenin&#39;s works and compare it to Trotsky, you can see there is a big difference on their principles.
I actually decided Trotskyism wasn&#39;t for me. Though I think you&#39;d be pleased to know I have been reading a lot of papers from the RCP and I talk a lot to a Maoist friend of mine, and I think I understand Maoism a lot better. But that doesn&#39;t make it appeal to me anymore. I am definitely a "left communist" and I&#39;d say with council communist leanings. [/b]
You know, I just wonder why some call themselves "left communist", "extreme left", etc. Was it just to make a distinction of themselves from the "other" communists? For me, as long as I know the basic principles of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism, its proven record all the lessons of the proletarian revolution compiled in these, and do not see any fundamental change in the society now as to warrant a change in these principles, and that Marxism-Leninism-Maoism is still applicable, as it had proven in history, I would not change any leanings. I do not go to this or that group just because they appeal to me or what.

[Veers]

Trotsky was a very smart man. Lenin even said beware of Stalin, he was right Stlalin made Communism Have a bad Rep and he killed many many people i am an anti STalin Mao is also Retarted, both have failed to follow the Communist way and said they were communist to gain power