Power corrupts no matter what the alignment?

[NykylaiHellray]

Well primarally I am a right winged man, THOUGH NOT EXTREME IN THE SLIGHTEST, i am more of a middle man, though I am going to be a member of the raving loony party ^^, then again I may be convinced to change my alignment if I know communism can work.

What I want to do is ask you a seriously honest question, do not lie. As this is supposed to prove to me whether your ideals can work.

If you where given polictical power, and I mean ANY of you, can you honestly truthfully say to me whether the power would not change or corrupt you in the slightest. As I know it has, and it will always change people. Power does currupt, but does it curupt even the most purest of people? you who strive for peace and equel rights for all?

This is the question I give to you all.

Prove me wrong.


Also does communism support equel rights for ethnic minorities, as with the commusnist parties that have emmerged (with all good and pure intebtions at first) the country only supported it's own. Does this mean that commusnism is no better then facism in racial thinking?

[NovelGentry]

If you where given polictical power, and I mean ANY of you, can you honestly truthfully say to me whether the power would not change or corrupt you in the slightest. As I know it has, and it will always change people. Power does currupt, but does it curupt even the most purest of people? you who strive for peace and equel rights for all?

This is the question I give to you all.

Prove me wrong.

First off, you can't "prove someone wrong" on a question. You are asking our opinion.

If you ask me it is not that power "corrupts" but it alieantes. Marx points out the existence of the state itself as a determined portion of society necessarily must alienate it from society as a whole. That is, if the state is representative of the bourgeoisie, it is alienated from the proletariat, if it is representative of the proletariat it is alienated from the previous or older bourgeoisie, more is designed to take back from them what has been exploited from the working class of previous ages.

I believe this alienation indefinitely leads to what you would consider "corruption." That is why the goal should be to consistently equalize the people -- more, the power should be at the hands of that vast majority. This is to say, the political power must be completely held by the proletariat, the majority working class. Any centralization which obfuscates their power or diminishes their direct control further alienates those in power from those people as well.

Communism itself cannot be achieved without the most pure and direct forms of democracy held by ALL. Socialism maintains the previous class antagonisms and thus seeks to destroy the classes by equalizing the role and forces of all individuals and putting an end to exploitation of one individual by another.


Also does communism support equel rights for ethnic minorities, as with the commusnist parties that have emmerged (with all good and pure intebtions at first) the country only supported it's own. Does this mean that commusnism is no better then facism in racial thinking?

Communism is global. The existing communist parties and previous communist parties may have indeed been communists, but they never claimed to have achieved communism... they understood, like we do, that communism is beyond the horizon of socialism. And many of them even understood their countries needed to fall back to less desirable systems to eventually rise up with socialism. This was Lenin's purpose for the NEP. This consciousness is what separates the communists, seemingly, from most other political organizations. But sometimes these people are wrong. They overestimate productive capacity, move TOO swiftly, etc.

Equality is the goal of communism. You cannot achieve true democracy unless you have total equality this means no division by race, sex, class, nation, etc. Communism is nationaless, borderless, stateless... it makes no distinction between black or white people, male or female, etc. Until you have achieved this equality you cannot consider yourself to have communism -- and to my knowledge NO communist party has ever made such a claim.

Terms like "Communist China" are continually perpetuated by the ruling class of capitalist nations, either out of sheer ignorance or simply for the sake of an easy label. It's easy to pretend that because someone labels themselves a communist that the socio-economic system of the particular country that person might lead is communism. The USSR (United Soviet Socialist Republics) never maintained communism in their name, just like the People's Republic of China or Democratic People's Republic of Korea are not the same as "Communist China" and "Communist North Korea." These labels and terms are perpetuated for the sake of perpetuating the broken myths and false understanding of communism in countries who have never been introduced to the ideal.

It is the reason you even bother to come on here and ask this question. If you took any time to actually read about communism and understand what it was actually about, these quesitons would have been answered, and you would know the nature of communism. Whether you read Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, etc... you will find it impossible for communism itself to be characterized by any means of inequality and for that matter any means of control over the people. Socialism is a completely different issue, and is of course, up for a much broader interpretation.

[DoomedOne]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 11:43 PM
Well primarally I am a right winged man, THOUGH NOT EXTREME IN THE SLIGHTEST, i am more of a middle man, though I am going to be a member of the raving loony party ^^, then again I may be convinced to change my alignment if I know communism can work.

What I want to do is ask you a seriously honest question, do not lie. As this is supposed to prove to me whether your ideals can work.

If you where given polictical power, and I mean ANY of you, can you honestly truthfully say to me whether the power would not change or corrupt you in the slightest. As I know it has, and it will always change people. Power does currupt, but does it curupt even the most purest of people? you who strive for peace and equel rights for all?

This is the question I give to you all.

Prove me wrong.


Also does communism support equel rights for ethnic minorities, as with the commusnist parties that have emmerged (with all good and pure intebtions at first) the country only supported it's own. Does this mean that commusnism is no better then facism in racial thinking?
Actually, yes, I do think power corrupts no matter who you are. There are ways to ensure that power is given with liberties taken upon it. Sort of like how they originally tried to limit the presidential powers, but of course it only lasted so long.

See, I'm a revolutionary moderate progressive. I think coomunism needs definite editing in order to work and still be possible to implement. Everyone can picture their ideal society, but inplementing it is tricky. Anyway, coming to these boards, I've notice a lot of people think of themselves as supreme judges, as though they're right, and they'll always be right. It's a classic conclusion to surounding yourself with yes-men. The fact is, none of us are omniscent. We are all falible, and none of our ideas are definite truths. So, a lot of people think they are infalliable, and therefore that no matter what they do, not matter what line they cross, it's for a better world, their ideal world, so it's okay. It's that kind of thinking that makes a villain out of anybody.

One these lines, I think, if violence. Once you can condone murder and torture to obtain your victory, you can no longer honestly say to yourself that you are right, because you are murdering, and you are torturing. It doesn't matter what unrealistic goal you're trying to accomplish or what political opinions you have, once you murder and torture to achieve any goal, you've failed at making the world a better place.

[NykylaiHellray]

doomedone to me your the one who speaks the most sense, and your the one who actually tried to answer my question and not avoid it :)

[LSD]

Power does currupt, but does it curupt even the most purest of people?

Yes.

Which is why inequality and hierarchy must be eliminated. It's why government, and "leaders", and, yes, money must be elminated. As long as social conditions exist such that some can achieve power over others, be that power political, economic, or both, that power will inevitable lead to corruption and abuse. It is simply unreasonable to expect that we can "trust" people with that kind of power.

But I have a question for you...

How can you oppose centralized power and be a "right winged man"?

The right is based on centralizing power! On reducing democractic oversight and increasing "market" influence... so.. aren't you supporting the very corruption you're so afraid of?

[NykylaiHellray]

I personally support a centeralized power. I believe the world need leaders at the moment.

Yet I do see the appeal of communism, it is a great ideal, and I am just here to try to understand it, and post questions to you to see where your heart truely lies.

At this stage in human evolution, humans are no better then the momkeys thye evolved from, they are, we are, all to stupid to make a perfectly equel society, the primal instincts of humans is food and violence. So a this stage we cannot achive it I believe.

Maybe in 300 more years we will. It depends on how fast we evolve.


At this stage in evolution I will stick to the right hand of humanity

[Dwarf Kirlston]

Originally posted by "DoomedOne"
[...]a lot of people think they are infalliable, and therefore that no matter what they do, not matter what line they cross, it's for a better world, their ideal world, so it's okay. It's that kind of thinking that makes a villain out of anybody.

One these lines, I think, if violence. Once you can condone murder and torture to obtain your victory, you can no longer honestly say to yourself that you are right [...]
:), what if it's the immediate attack occasion? what about the greater of two evils? what about the fact that the current system is difficult to defeat, and it uses these methods? What about punishment of traitors?

people never call it murder, and sometimes they don't call it torture either: you kill, you abuse.

NykylaiHellray: how do you feel about wageslavery? the greedy cheating rich (who sometimes got there by cheating)? what do you feel about Salvador Salgado's pictures? Do you believe that the oligarchy is in control?

[NykylaiHellray]

well, yes that is the problem with right wing, bu then there is no political system which is free from any problems.

I personally think classes keep humanity in check, and bring order to the chaos.

My parents are working class, but they have worked god damn hard all there life and now higher class, bu they have always been coservative.

I do agree that left wing is a great vision, but whether humans have the willpower, and the intellegence to do it without any hate or negative feeling. It may not be achieved in our lifetime. Maybe the next but not ours. Humans are to stupid <_<

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 11:43 PM
Well primarally I am a right winged man, THOUGH NOT EXTREME IN THE SLIGHTEST, i am more of a middle man, though I am going to be a member of the raving loony party ^^, then again I may be convinced to change my alignment if I know communism can work.

What I want to do is ask you a seriously honest question, do not lie. As this is supposed to prove to me whether your ideals can work.

If you where given polictical power, and I mean ANY of you, can you honestly truthfully say to me whether the power would not change or corrupt you in the slightest. As I know it has, and it will always change people. Power does currupt, but does it curupt even the most purest of people? you who strive for peace and equel rights for all?

This is the question I give to you all.

Prove me wrong.


Also does communism support equel rights for ethnic minorities, as with the commusnist parties that have emmerged (with all good and pure intebtions at first) the country only supported it&#39;s own. Does this mean that commusnism is no better then facism in racial thinking?
Power currupts?

Click right here: http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...pic=34687&st=40 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=34687&st=40)

"If certain people disappear into secret mass graves i will not lose any sleep over it. I&#39;ve said before I have no moral or ethical objections to using state power to eliminate those whom disagree with me, depending on how much they get in m way: all religious persons,trotskyites, anarchists, syndicalists, social-democrats, capitalists, bourgoies/petit-bourgeois, the list goes on.... " - A Communist

[t_wolves_fan]

That&#39;s different, it&#39;s in the name of the revolution.

Remember, good when we do it, bad when they do.

Or something.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 03:32 PM
That&#39;s different, it&#39;s in the name of the revolution.

Remember, good when we do it, bad when they do.

Or something.
The party line excuse is: "That is not communism".

OK but communism produced the circumstance to make it happen.

[Soviet sally]

Its kind of like that scene in lord of the rings

Bearded wizard chap - frodo take the ring
short dude on pot - fuck that shit, you take it
bearded wizard chap - understand frodo, i would use this ring for good, but it will corupt me

Is that relavent you ask....probaly not but hey&#33;

So basically (not that i base my decisions on this movie) but i wouldnt accept so much power and money, or if i did id make sure i didnt have it for long....or buy the worlds biggest supply of those gum ball things you

This is Elmo by the way, have to use a mates account because mines on the fuck

[Frederick_Engles]

in a communist government government officials would be elected on a local level.

[LSD]

in a communist government government officials would be elected on a local level.

In a communist government ...there wouldn&#39;t be a communist government&#33;


Power currupts?

Click right here: http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...pic=34687&st=40

The person you&#39;re refering to as "A Communist", rice349, has been banned from this board, so I would hardly call him a communist by the standards of this community.

I guess you forgot to mention that fact. :lol:&#33;

[OleMarxco]

How could I know, for the sake of it? What the hell, even if I said yes or no, now, we could knever know before you see me how - WITH THE WAND OF POWER IN MY WITHIN MY GRASP. But I doubt it. Therefore, it should be direct democracy to prevent me from ever corrupting :D

[Frederick_Engles]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 4 2005, 05:53 PM

in a communist government government officials would be elected on a local level.

In a communist government ...there wouldn&#39;t be a communist government&#33;


Power currupts?

Click right here: http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...pic=34687&st=40

The person you&#39;re refering to as "A Communist", rice349, has been banned from this board, so I would hardly call him a communist by the standards of this community.

I guess you forgot to mention that fact. :lol:&#33;
Ah you are right I was thinking of socialism :( , but I&#39;m a socialist :D

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 4 2005, 05:53 PM

in a communist government government officials would be elected on a local level.

In a communist government ...there wouldn&#39;t be a communist government&#33;


Power currupts?

Click right here: http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...pic=34687&st=40

The person you&#39;re refering to as "A Communist", rice349, has been banned from this board, so I would hardly call him a communist by the standards of this community.

I guess you forgot to mention that fact. :lol:&#33;
He thinks he is a communist.

How many more people like that are there?

How many of them actually became LEADERS in communist countries?

[KC]

QUOTE FROM PRINCIPLES OF COMMUNISM BY FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Question 18: What will be the course of this revolution?

Answer. Above all, it will establish a democratic constitution and through this the direct or indirect dominance of the proletariat...

...Democracy would be wholly valueless to the proletariat if it were not immediately used as a means for putting through measures directed against private property and ensuring the livelihood of the proletariat. The main measures, emerging as the necessary result of existing relations, are the following:

(1) Limitation of private property through progressive taxation, heavy inheritance taxes, abolition of inheritance through collateral lines (brothers, nephews, etc.), forced loans, etc.
(2) Gradual expropriation of landowners, industrialists, railroad magnates and shipowners, partly through competition by state industry, partly directly through compensation in the form of bonds.
(3) Confiscation of the possessions of all emigrants and rebels against the majority of the people.
(4) Organization of labor or employment of proletarians on publicly owned land, in factories and workshops, with competition among the workers being abolished and with the factory owners, insofar as they will exist, being obliged to pay the same high wages as those paid by the state.
(5) An equal obligation on all members of society to work until such time as private property has been completely abolished. Formation of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
(6) Centralization of money and credit in the hands of the state through a national bank operating with state capital, and the suppression of all private banks and bankers.
(7) Expansion of the number of national factories, workshops, railroads, ships; bringing new lands into cultivation and improvement of land already under cultivation - all in proportion to the growth of the capital and labor force at the disposal of the nation.
(8) Education of all children, from the moment they can leave their mothers&#39; care, in national establishments at national cost. Education and production together.
(9) Construction, on public lands, of great palaces as communal dwellings for associated groups of citizens engaged in both industry and agriculture and combining in their way of life the advantages of urban and rural conditions while avoiding the one-sidedness and drawbacks of each.
(10) Destruction of all unhealthy and jerry-built dwellings in urban districts.
(11) Equal inheritance rights for children born in and out of wedlock.
(12) Concentration of all means of transportation in the hands of the nation.

Therefore power shouldn&#39;t matter because nobody would have greater power over anyone else.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 03:28 AM
QUOTE FROM PRINCIPLES OF COMMUNISM BY FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Question 18: What will be the course of this revolution?

Answer. Above all, it will establish a democratic constitution and through this the direct or indirect dominance of the proletariat...

...Democracy would be wholly valueless to the proletariat if it were not immediately used as a means for putting through measures directed against private property and ensuring the livelihood of the proletariat. The main measures, emerging as the necessary result of existing relations, are the following:

(1) Limitation of private property through progressive taxation, heavy inheritance taxes, abolition of inheritance through collateral lines (brothers, nephews, etc.), forced loans, etc.
(2) Gradual expropriation of landowners, industrialists, railroad magnates and shipowners, partly through competition by state industry, partly directly through compensation in the form of bonds.
(3) Confiscation of the possessions of all emigrants and rebels against the majority of the people.
(4) Organization of labor or employment of proletarians on publicly owned land, in factories and workshops, with competition among the workers being abolished and with the factory owners, insofar as they will exist, being obliged to pay the same high wages as those paid by the state.
(5) An equal obligation on all members of society to work until such time as private property has been completely abolished. Formation of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
(6) Centralization of money and credit in the hands of the state through a national bank operating with state capital, and the suppression of all private banks and bankers.
(7) Expansion of the number of national factories, workshops, railroads, ships; bringing new lands into cultivation and improvement of land already under cultivation - all in proportion to the growth of the capital and labor force at the disposal of the nation.
(8) Education of all children, from the moment they can leave their mothers&#39; care, in national establishments at national cost. Education and production together.
(9) Construction, on public lands, of great palaces as communal dwellings for associated groups of citizens engaged in both industry and agriculture and combining in their way of life the advantages of urban and rural conditions while avoiding the one-sidedness and drawbacks of each.
(10) Destruction of all unhealthy and jerry-built dwellings in urban districts.
(11) Equal inheritance rights for children born in and out of wedlock.
(12) Concentration of all means of transportation in the hands of the nation.

Therefore power shouldn&#39;t matter because nobody would have greater power over anyone else.
That is not what really happens. Instead what you get is people like rice becomming the highest authority in government running the whole show, then you know what is next. The secret mass graves and bullets in the back of the head.