Christian Revolutionaries

[soilride]

Just finished reading a post by andresG on Reverend Dr. Robert M. Bowman who appears to be a Catholic Christian.

When I first became interested in Marxism I was immediately confronted by the problem of Christianity. Many times I have tried to reconcile the two but I had no other information other than reading what Marx had said about religion. Then I read about the Christian Revolutionaries and the Liberation Theologians in Latin America who actually took up arms and fought for workers, the poor and the oppressed and trained with Marxist guerrillas and cadre. Jesuit priests helped fought in the Nicaurauguan Revolution, the struggle in El Salvador, Honduras, Peru, Colombia. One of the most famous Christian Revolutionaries has been Padre Camillo Torres a Catholic Priest who fought with the National Liberation Army of Colombia [ELN] and died fighting for the cause of socialism. He writes in the book "Revolutionary Priest: Complete Writings and Messages of Camillo Torres": "I took off my cassock to be more truly a priest. The duty of every Catholic is to be a revolutionary. The duty of every revolutionary is to make the revolution. The Catholic who is not a revolutionary is living in mortal sin."

Another book that inspires me concerning Christian and Marxist revolutionaries is an Autobiography of Padre J. Guadalupe Carney, S.J. [entitled To Be A Revolutionary] an American Priest who fought for the poor and oppressed workers of Honduras and joined the communist guerrillas fighting imperialism and has been missing since his unit has been wiped out from Honduran reactionary forces.

Some will say that Liberation Theology is no longer valid or whatnot. But I still see it as a vital force to be reckoned with. The fact that it existed at all proves that Hegel and Marx have been right about the science of the progress of all things, that even "religions" must after a certain period of time make important self-criticisms in order to evolve and change the world.

Take care

[PunkRawker677]

Reinhold Neuber (or something similar to that) was a U.S. christian socialist. I read up about him a little while ago, i'll try to find some links for you and maybe the correct selling of his name (if my spelling is indeed incorrect).

[Pinko]

I have met some truely enlightened Christians. One in particular hated the Catholic church (even though he called himself a catholic :confused: ), he followed the teaching of Christ rather than the dogmatic muttering of some old fool who lived in isolation from the world in a hypocritical city state (his words). He was all for the rights of workers, abolishion of land ownership, redistribution of wealth etc... Cool guy.
Religion (in its purest form) is not inimicable to communism, it is the corruption and dogma that has crept into those organisations that cause the problem. Misinterpreting the message of the bible for your own selfish ends is the root of the problem. The bible needs to be rewritten with the message in mind, people need to look at the meaning behind the words rather than the words themselves.
There is no place for dogma in communism, but there is a home for religion.



(Edited by Pinko at 5:16 pm on Sep. 2, 2002)

[deimos]

i don't know how the situation was in other parts of the world,but it was completely impossible´in austria to socialist and christian at the same time.In the late 70's it changed under kreisky's reign.

[Moskitto]

I what way was it "impossible?"

[RGacky3]

I admire many cristians who follow the bible and its prominantly socialist teachings, yet hate many so called cristians who have their heads suck up their asses.

[Lefty]

in some of the verses of the book, it says things that go very much hand in hand with revolution against dictators/rich people controlling the poor. I will try to find a quote, but i'll probably forget.

[andresG]

I have read the writings of Camilo Torres before and found them very refreshing.
It was great to hear a Catholic priest say things like:

"I took off my cassock to be more truly a priest. The duty of every Catholic is to be a revolutionary. The duty of every revolutionary is to make the revolution. The Catholic who is not a revolutionary is living in mortal sin."

This reminded me very clearly of a poem by Roque Dalton (who was a member of the guerrilla group FMLN in El Salvador).
This poem was in the section <Catholic Poems>.

Without Reluctance
The Son of God was born armed with a drum
and the resurrection of Christ
was a sign
that all the rich of the world should be stabbed by crosses.

What is the Christian belief
without this conspirative theology?

Shit.

[Mazdak]

I find christian socialism to be an oxymoron, but that is just my opinion and i dont feel like having another religious argument on this thread too.

[andresG]

Mazdak:
You will never be able to abolish religion.
Why can't you accept that it can be used for good purposes.

[Beyond Good and Evil]

Religon is just a moral system that helps provide structure to people who need an outside moral code in their lives. It is not an end in itself, but a means to an end. Marx called it the opiate of the people because in his time (as ours) the bible thumpers and other religous groups, who dont follow the actual teachings of christ as they do preach ideology, were a tool of the ruling party to supress the working class.

Religon can function just as equally as a creative force of socialism as it does and opressive force of capitalism. People arent going to give up their religion as simply as you might have them, so they might as well serve to create a better world for everyone instead of imprisoning peoples minds. I think Liberation Theology is a beautiful concept.

[Moskitto]

Quote: from Mazdak on 2:49 am on Sep. 4, 2002
I find christian socialism to be an oxymoron, but that is just my opinion and i dont feel like having another religious argument on this thread too.


Well, someone I know who's got 3 A*s and 7 As as GCSE results showed that Atheism is an oxymoron, but do I go around telling people that people can't be Atheists?

[AsiaticGenius]

If you were to take a look at these three books you would change your whole thought about relgion and come up with your own spiritual teachings to stimulate your self so you can become one with the creator.

The book your church doesn't want you to read
The Hiram Key
The Message to the Blackman in Amerika

The first book will tell you of religions such as Christianity,Islam and ect... origin
The second book will tell you the TRUE story of Yoshua Ben Joseph also know as Jesus Christ and the origin of freemasonry which plays a bigg part in the amerikan goverment.

The third book will tell you how most of christianity teachings was slaverying teaching such as when you die you go to heaven but how in actuality heaven is on earth. It will also tell you how the holy trinity is against the laws of mathematics. Check these books out and know religion for what it is a oppressive system maintain by the established government.

"I say ye are all Gods and all children of the Most High"
-spalms 82:6

If you want to find God you first have to become God. The Prince must become a King in order for him to replace his Father who is King.


PEACE-Proper Education Always Corrects Error

[antieverything]

ummm....psycho!

[Mazdak]

I hate religion more then hitler hated jews. I can't let go that idea. It disturbs me that peopel still believe it. That is why i would never aid a christian revolutionary group. Both they and the government are equally bad. Christianity is one of the more vile religions anyway.

that is all i can say, for now.

[Mahdavikia]

to my mind, Communism, Socialism and Religion can cohabit. In fact, they defend the same things : egality between people and charity.
The problem with Religion is that some people use it to dominate other human. But in the spirit, religion is good.

[Mahdavikia]

for instance, see boudhism, it's a very atractive religion, isn't it???

[evil chris]

Fuck Cults


now thats out of the way back to reason.
There are some truely fantastic relgious revolutionarys.Got nowt to do with relgion (and if they're Christians then it's further proof that noone actully reads the bible with their critical thinking on) and everything about Humanity.
What came first, the act or the book? Did we all just sit around till someone came around to us with a book or carving to tell us what was right or wrong?
No.We fought,fucked,killed,ate,loved,shared and cared way before Relgion blighted our lives.
The fact that some people still cling to Relgion is testerment only to that (justifyable) fear of death

[antieverything]

Wow, I just got done talking about how mazdak was an ass-douching, hate filled, piece of worthless shit. Then, lo-and-behold, I come over here and he does it again!

[evil chris]

but if this forum weren't brimming with the quick and the pointless, why would you come here?
Lets hear it for Recreational Politics!

[antieverything]

LOL.

Let's just say this: The question is not, "how can one be a Christian and a revolutionary?" The question is, "how can one be a Christian and NOT be a revolutionary?"

[LeninCCCP]

Quote: from Beyond Good and Evil on 7:18 pm on Sep. 4, 2002
Religon is just a moral system that helps provide structure to people who need an outside moral code in their lives. It is not an end in itself, but a means to an end. Marx called it the opiate of the people because in his time (as ours) the bible thumpers and other religous groups, who dont follow the actual teachings of christ as they do preach ideology, were a tool of the ruling party to supress the working class.

Religon can function just as equally as a creative force of socialism as it does and opressive force of capitalism. People arent going to give up their religion as simply as you might have them, so they might as well serve to create a better world for everyone instead of imprisoning peoples minds. I think Liberation Theology is a beautiful concept.

Russia didn't seem to have trouble doing it...

[synthesis]

It annoys me greatly when people attack religion as a whole...

Name one thing that Buddhism, or Rastafarianism, or Islam, or Judaism, or Hinduism has done to you personally.

Nothing? That's what I thought.

[evil chris]

anti - by reading Romans 13 (vrs 13 i think) where Paul expressly tells us that by rebelling against the government you are rebelliong against god.

Dyer - making the world i live in a more dangerous place than it would be anyway?
To be fair i haven't read much into these relgions, just the Christian cult because i used to be in.Though i do know a people involved with or a part of so i get a fairly good angle when i need it.Basically life is too short to waste it reading Holy Books.And i'vce already done two.

[antieverything]

chris, when I read this part of Romans, I get the impression that Paul is mocking the Roman government while at the same time trying to not get every Christian in Rome killed. My father (who has a PhD in Church History) disagrees and says that Paul was a Roman Citizen which afforded him many priviledges and saved his life more than once. Paul also thought that the world was going to end soon...My father also has a degree of dislike of Paul. Interestingly enough, Paul ended up dying in a Roman prison which is pretty ironic...serves him right for being an ass-kissing pansy. Jesus would not have been happy with him.

To clear things up, though, I am not really a "Christian" in the mystical sense. I am a Christian in the same sense that one would be a "Debbsian" or "Marxist". I feel that the divinity of Jesus or the existance of God are ultimately irrelevant and that "God" is best seen as an ultimate truth and a universal ethic which was best embodied by Jesus. Needless to say, some of my friends feel a compelling urge to "save" my soul.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

One can be a christian and a revolutionary I don't think It makes a big diference since the placen that gave birth to comunist revolution was already a cristian ortodox country.

[evil chris]

anti - There is alot of intresting stuff about Paul, and on the more paranoid side, i read a site discussing wether or not Paul was a Roman mole , inserted to subvert the new cult fasionable amoung the slaves, soldiers and working class of the Empire.
I will try and find it when i get a chance and post here.
I would probbly side with your dad on the paul issue.He's full of shit.