Animal Farm

[marxist_chica1288]

While sitting in a World Civ. class, I thought it pointless to watch a cartoon about animals on a farm. But I learned something interesting about this cartoon. The old pig who encouraged the animals to revolt against their abusive farmer was a symbol of Karl Marx. The next one to continue the revolution was a pig named Snowball, who was meant to be Leon Trotsky. And then there was this pig who exiled Snowball and turned the farm into a totalitarian state. That pig was to be Josef Stalin. I was impressed, because it showed Marx and Trotsky in a positive light in American media.

[lvialviaquez]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not...

But Animal Farm was a novel by George Orwell, a staunch socialist (though he was vehemently opposed to the Soviet Union). The story is an allegory for the Russian Revolution that casts Lenin/Marx (Old Major) and Trotsky (Snowball) in a positive light.

Anyway, check out the book; it's a great read.

[Pawn Power]

read and learn

previous thread on Animal Farm (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=31866)

[Enragé]

Orwell was an english dude. So it has nothing to do with american media. They probably showed it to you because to someone who doesnt know the background of Animal Farm its simply a story about how a revolution FAILS.

[marxist_chica1288]

But the real point is that it was shown to American children during the Cold War. These children maybe read the book, which is also great. But a cartoon for a child shown in America during the Cold War is fucking brilliant.

[bolshevik butcher]

Animal Farm isn't anti communist, it's anti stlainist. It complitments marx and trotosky.

[lvialviaquez]

Animal Farm isn't anti communist, it's anti stlainist.

I agree with you, but who here ever said it was anti-communist?

[Black Dagger]

I agree with you, but who here ever said it was anti-communist?

Redstar actually had a good paper on this, very interesting perspective of the book,

here (http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1105929449&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

The major thrust of which is,
"The conclusion of Animal Farm is that a new ruling class has taken over that is "just as bad" if not "actually worse" than the old one...and there is no sign that it will ever be otherwise."

[OleMarxco]

The plotline is rather similar to the book "Animal Farm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm)", however, just a little bit more humoric and bastardized. Renember, 'tho, however, stick to the subject and talk 'bout the CARTOON, not the BOOK, argh, damnit, IDIOTS! :lol:

[lvialviaquez]

This thread is not about the book "Animal Farm", but a cartoon called for "Animal Farm", i.e., with the same name - so Please do not confuse it wink.gif

Yes, this is true. However, I believe only one of the people posting here has actually seen the cartoon, so we must used the book as a basis. (This assumes, of course, that the book and cartoon follow the same plot.)

An interesting note about Animal Farm is that every character represents a different group/person in Russian society. Not only do Old Major, Snowball, and Napoleon represent Marx/Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin, but the other characters have allegorical identities. Right now I can only remember that Boxer represented the workers and the crows or whatnot were the Mensheviks.

[Zingu]

Yes, we had to watch a movie of it in class; with real animals in it...it was quite funny seeing a giant pig with a gooey nose screaming "ITS TIME FOR REVOLUTION COMRADES!" on screen! :D

[October Revolution]

Ha Ha :lol: this is rather priceless i may cut it out and put it on my wall sorry if ii'm being abit harsh but how can you not know about Animal Farm, it's one of the most famous books ever. Also i think that the cartoon was on last christmas and it's the same story based on Orwells writing but the ending is strange, it's not very good in my opinion.

On a better note has anyone read "Homage To Catalonia" by Orwell?

[bed_of_nails]

No, but if you give me a brief overview of what it is about I might.

[American_Trotskyist]

Red Star is just a philistine who lacks any consitient belief system. He is a baby boomer who went to college and decided that he would reject Lenin, for the obvious reason becasue he lacks any revolutionary dedication, but support North Vietnam, because that was fashionable during his time. Red's paper is just an expression of anger toward his early McCarthyist education, not any real analysis of the book. It was writen after Orwell saw the Communist Party of Spain betray the revolution, under Russia's orders, by attacking the POUM and CNT. He saw that Stalin had betrayed the revolution, but he was just the figurehead. Boxer is, by the way, not the common worker he is the Chinese Revolution of 1925-1927 that was betrayed when Stalin adopted the Menshevik two-stage revolution and ordered the workers to halt the revolution and unite with the Nationalists, for trade reasons.

[bed_of_nails]

I sense a tiny bit of hostility.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by American Trotskyist
Red Star is just a philistine who lacks any consitient belief system.

I believe that the word you want there is consistent.

And if that is what you meant to say, you are quite right. "Belief systems" -- like Trotskyism -- are pretty much useless for analyzing anything...except the psychological aberrations of the believers.

I have reported your remarks to the Disciplinary Sub-Committee of the Central Committee of the Philistine Communist Party.

With any luck at all, you'll get off with a year's community service...scraping pigeon turds off statues of Trotsky. :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[American_Trotskyist]

Ah so besides the grammatical part of my post you don't object to the fact that you have no conviction? Ok. Besides the fact that Red is in an infantile disorder, he has nothing else to say on the issue. By the way, do you even have a job? I mean how can you spend so much time on this site?

[American_Trotskyist]

By the way, I want to clean Lenin, not Trotsky. I'm not scrubing bird shit from a head full of hair, I want the bald man.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by American Trotskyist
By the way, do you even have a job? I mean how can you spend so much time on this site?

This site is my "job". :D

It's mostly enjoyable...except, of course, having to deal with the occasional cretin like yourself.

At the moment, there are only about three of you on the board -- you know, the ones who confuse insult with argument -- so it's not too bad.

And one of those guys rarely posts any more...so that helps.

Perhaps by summer, you'll all have found other amusements for yourselves...more appropriate to your intellectual abilities.

That would be nice. :)

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[American_Trotskyist]

Ah, so here it is I am arguing with 60 something year old who still can't find any ideology, goes to whichever is most popular. Yes a great Marxist theoretician you are, men decades from now will write of you. I can see your biography's title now Red Star: Life of Impotence and Infantile Disorder’ or ‘The Story of a Philistine"

I argue with you purely because it is so comic, just your confusion makes this site worth the trip to the library.

However, I truly think you have no conviction.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by American Trotskyist
Ah, so here it is I am arguing with 60 something year old who still can't find any ideology, goes to whichever is most popular.

No, you are not "arguing" with me...that's something you are far from competent to do.

You are insulting me...or at least attempting to do that.


I can see your biography's title now Red Star: Life of Impotence and Infantile Disorder’ or ‘The Story of a Philistine"

I wasn't anticipating a biography at all...I don't have those kinds of ambitions.

You, on the other hand, clearly have much grander aspirations...doomed to disappointment, I'm afraid.

Whatever your destiny, you will not be "the next Trotsky".

That's probably "a good thing".


However, I truly think you have no conviction.

I have one...that you are proud of being an ignoramus.

Have a nice day. :)

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Maynard]

I have always thought Old Major was Lenin, I never really considered Marx but contrary to the original poster, Animal Farm, in the United States, has always been cited as an example of how communism doesn't work and at the time was even seen as an attack on the British Labor Party.
I would, however, like further information on Boxer symbolizing the Chinese Revolution, it is the first time I have heard of this.

[bolshevik butcher]

It's only seen as an attack on communism, because the readers are brain washed with anti communist propoganda so much they cant see the difference between stalinsim and communism.

[bed_of_nails]

RedStar2000 Vs. American Trotskyist, Round one!

First person to insult the other person to the point of soiling themselves wins!

I am in the process of reading Animal Farm again, and I am looking for the Chinese Rebellion being represented by Boxer.

Who wrote Clockwork Orange again? I cannot remember.

[Guerrilla22]

I don't see Animal Farm as being anti-communist or anti-Soviet, the book simply points out the fact that a great amount of hypocriscy existed within the USSR along with a great amount of corruption, which made the Soviet leadership far from being inline with the country's founding idelogical measures.

[refuse_resist]

Animal Farm is pure anti-communist propaganda. During the whole "War on Communism" it was required reading material for students.

[Redmau5]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 10:47 AM
Animal Farm is pure anti-communist propaganda. During the whole "War on Communism" it was required reading material for students.
Do socialists usually write anti-communist propaganda ?. I suppose Orwell was "counter-revolutionary" ?

It was a perfect portrayal of how Stalin became as bad as the Tsars before him. He may have turned the USSR into a super power but at what cost ? He had absolutely no regard for the workers he represented. If only Lenin had lived long enough to remove the power Stalin possessed then you have to wonder would the USSR have turned out better.

And by the way, Boxer is supposed to represent the spirit of the workers. I don't see how he represents the Chinese revolution.

[coda]

<<< Animal Farm is pure anti-communist propaganda. During the whole "War on Communism" it was required reading material for students.>>>

That&#39;s because school administrators were by and large niave and just plain stupid and couldn&#39;t figure out the deeper allegory than what appeared to be at face value.

It&#39;s anti-totalitarian, anti-Capitalist literature. It has nothing outright related to communism in it unless you want to relate the farm to a cooperative factory. Otherwise, there&#39;s nothing there. But it speaks VOLUMES about being yoked under an oppressive regime of opportunist Pigs.

sheer brilliance. And simplistic enough to draw a child in. I loved "Charlotte&#39;s Web" too. another allegory about the disadvantaged of society.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Makaveli_05
Do socialists usually write anti-communist propaganda? I suppose Orwell was "counter-revolutionary"?

Yes, sometimes they do.

George Orwell -- Reactionary? (http://redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1097859426&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

Orwell Again??? (http://redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1105929449&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

Orwell was a "counter-revolutionary" in the literal sense of the word -- he was opposed to the whole idea after he left Spain.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 10:47 AM
Animal Farm is pure anti-communist propaganda. During the whole "War on Communism" it was required reading material for students.
That&#39;s a pretty simplistic way of looking at things. Can you honestly say that Orwell didn&#39;t correctly portray Soviet leadership in that book. It&#39;s not "anti-communis" to point out hypocriscy.

[OleMarxco]

I think Orwell supported the IDEA but was fighting the CORRUPTIZED state-capitalistic degrading of Sovie that appeared AFTER the Revolution. Therefore he is a skeptic to the idea of a LEADER-BASED REVOLUTION, but not necessarily COMMUNISM. I do believe Orwell believed that being a COMMUNIST is a worth sacrifice for a good ideal, but any armed struggle creates a sort of chaos easy for would-be despots to sneak into a power-position in the new system exploiting it, unless the workers are PAYING ATTENTION to what&#39;s happening. In Russia, they CLEARLY did not. They were, not stereotypizing or having an "they&#39;re-below-me"-attitude, but, in fact PRETTY ILLITERIATE and DID NOT COMPREHEND the Marxistic idea. They was not EDUCATED to now if whether or not their leaders did the right thang. Alas, however, I think Orwell derived into becoming more of a social democrat instead...reformist...too bad. He could&#39;ve tried, &#39;tho, to start a revolution HIS way ;)

[Redmau5]

Orwell was not criticising the Revolution. After the initial overthrow of Mr. Jones in Animal Farm the animals were all working together and everything appears to be going fine. It is obvious that Snowball is portrayed in a better light than Napoleon.

I don&#39;t think Orwell was criticising the initial ideals of the Revolution, he was just critical of Stalin&#39;s perversion of Bolshevism.

As Trotsky said, "between Bolshevism and Stalinism flowed a river of blood".

[refuse_resist]

Originally posted by Makaveli_05
Do socialists usually write anti-communist propaganda ?. I suppose Orwell was "counter-revolutionary" ?

Orwell offered writers&#39; blacklist to anti-Soviet propaganda unit
by Richard Norton-Taylor and Seumas Milne
The Guardian, 11 July 1996



George Orwell, the socialist author, offered to provide a secret Foreign Office propaganda unit linked to the intelligence services with names of writers and journalists he regarded as "crypto-communist" and "fellow-travellers" who could not be trusted, documents released yesterday at the Public Record Office reveal.

He made the offer in 1949, shortly before he died, to the covert Information Research Department, which used well- known writers and publishers - including Bertrand Russell, Stephen Spender and Arthur Koestler - to produce anti- communist material during the cold war. Documents also show that the IRD singled out articles from Tribune, the leftwing but then anti-Soviet paper, to back up its hidden crusade.

In March 1949 an IRD official, Celia Kirwan, visited Orwell at a sanatorium in Cranham, Gloucestershire, where he was suffering from tuberculosis. "I discussed some aspects of our work with him in great confidence," she told her colleagues. "He was delighted to learn of them, and expressed his wholehearted and enthusiastic approval of our aims."

Although too ill to write himself, he gave the names of potential contributors. Early the following month, Orwell wrote to Kirwan offering to give her "a list of journalists and writers who in my opinion are crypto-communists, fellow-travellers or inclined that way and should not be trusted... "

He said his notebook with the names was at his home in London. He insisted that the list was "strictly confidential" since it would be libellous to call somebody a "fellow-traveller."

The revelation is likely to shock many of Orwell&#39;s admirers, for whom he is a 20th century radical icon. The files released yesterday do not contain the list of names but a card placed next to Orwell&#39;s letter to Kirwan says that a document has been withheld by the Foreign Office.

Bernard Crick, Orwell&#39;s biographer, confirmed yesterday that Orwell had kept a "notebook of suspects" containing 86 names. "Many were plausible, a few were far-fetched and unlikely," he said. Michael Foot, a friend of Orwell&#39;s in the 1930s and 1940s, said he found the letter "amazing".

"There&#39;s been a lot of argument about him deserting his socialism at the end of his life. I don&#39;t think that&#39;s true, but I&#39;m very surprised he was dealing with the secret services in any form."

The papers show that the IRD promoted the foreign language publication of Animal Farm, Orwell&#39;s classic anti-communist allegory. "The idea is particularly good for Arabic in view of the fact that both pigs and dogs are unclean animals to Muslims," noted an embassy official in Cairo.

The unit feared communism in Saudi Arabia, notably among oil workers in Dhahran, the scene of last month&#39;s bombing of an American base.

The IRD arranged the distribution of Tribune to British missions abroad. Officials noted: "[It] combines the resolute exposure of communism and its methods with the consistent championship of those objectives which leftwing sympathisers normally support".

They added: "Many articles in it can be effectively turned to this department&#39;s purposes."

Documents show that the IRD was closely involved with the Trades Union Congress, lobbied against unions supporting the National Council for Civil Liberties, and played an active role in splitting the international union movement in the late 1940s.

A note from a senior IRD official in 1949 warned that the NCCL (now renamed Liberty) was "heavily communist-penetrated and is in fact... being used for little if nothing more than attacking our colonial administration and policies at every opportunity".

The "persuasion" was done through the TUC, where IRD&#39;s main contact was Vic Feather, who later became general secretary.


http://www.netcharles.com/orwell/articles/col-blacklist.htm

[Redmau5]

I would have criticised the "communist" regime in place in Russia during the Cold War as well. Does this make me any less Communist ?

After Stalin came to power, the Revolution was betrayed.

[refuse_resist]

*yawn* :rolleyes:

[workersunity]

homage to catalonia is damn good

[bolshevik butcher]

Anyone who has read the beggining of animal farm and not seen the compliments that it pays the bolsheviks is obviously just plain stupid.

[Guerrilla22]

I think that people in the US have misinterpeted the message of Animal Farm though as well as 1984. Why else would you have to read these books in high school?

[El_Revolucionario]

Animal Farm is one of my favorite books. It was written by George Orwell, a wonderful socialist. Redstar, I have seen your reactionary postings about Orwell, and you clearly have not read enough of his work to appreciate him. Orwell was both an anti-fascist and an anti-stalinist. Now what is Stalinism? Could Stalinism be called "real" communism? I think not. You can not free the people by imposing a dictatorship on them. I disagree with alot of the Stalinists/Maoists/Jong Il-ists and so on who try to portray these dictatorships as happy heavens, well you need to take off the rose-colored glasses and start seeing some reality. Stalinism is not real communism, it&#39;s bourgeois style fake communism. Animal Farm is a perfect example of what happened in Soviet Russia, and the best man to write it was a socialist himself.

[El_Revolucionario]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 10:37 PM
I would have criticised the "communist" regime in place in Russia during the Cold War as well. Does this make me any less Communist ?

After Stalin came to power, the Revolution was betrayed.
I agree. I definitely would have criticized the bourgeois-style fake communism that Stalin practiced because it was not real communism. It was a dictatorship. Does it shock the Stalinists here that a communist would criticize Stalin? Shouldn&#39;t we protect our ideology from hypocrisy and idiocy as perpetrated by the Stalinist/Maoists? It does not make you any less communist to criticize Stalin, in fact, the ones with the least amount of communism are the Stalinists, for they have betrayed real communism in favor of a dictatorship.

If I lived in Soviet Russia, I would start a revolution against Stalin. A REAL REVOLUTION.

[El_Revolucionario]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 04:19 PM
I have always thought Old Major was Lenin, I never really considered Marx but contrary to the original poster, Animal Farm, in the United States, has always been cited as an example of how communism doesn&#39;t work and at the time was even seen as an attack on the British Labor Party.
I would, however, like further information on Boxer symbolizing the Chinese Revolution, it is the first time I have heard of this.
Yes Old Major was Marx if you read into it. Old Major was Marx, Snowball was Trotsky, and Napoleon was Stalin.

[OleMarxco]

Oh, you mean like a "real" revolution? Not a fake one, or did you mean a real revolution as a revolution for a real Communism? P.S. Learn to keep stuff in one single post and not double-post, edit the first and move content over to there....silly, of course "Old Mayor" isn&#39;t Lenin, since he never were the one speeching for Communism, he went all out as the leader of the Bolsheviks and "practiced" it...or atleast "tried" to :)

[bed_of_nails]

I do not see Boxer as the Chinese revolution. Would someone please aid me in the understanding of how you interpreted this?

[comrade_mufasa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 11:48 PM
I do not see Boxer as the Chinese revolution. Would someone please aid me in the understanding of how you interpreted this?
Boxer was not the Chinese revolution. He was the wokers of soviet Russia who belived they loved Stalin so much they would do anything he said. Boxer followed what ever Napoleon said becouse of Napoleon&#39;s "for the party"-type crap. Old Major could be look at as both Marx and Lenin in one pig. The bird was the russian church.

Animal Farm was not simply a satire on the Russion Revolution. Orwell&#39;s message was intended to be broader. In his own words: "I meant the moral to be that revolutions only effect a radical improvement when the masses are alert and know how to chuck out their leaders as soon as the latter have done their job. The turning point of the storey was supposed to be when the pigs kept the milk and apples for themselves".

[El_Revolucionario]

And the pigs were the Stalinists, the bourgeois ruling class fake communists. At the end, the message is that you could no longer tell the difference between the farmers (capitalists) and the pigs (Stalinists). They are the same kind of scum.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 06:57 PM
And the pigs were the Stalinists, the bourgeois ruling class fake communists. At the end, the message is that you could no longer tell the difference between the farmers (capitalists) and the pigs (Stalinists). They are the same kind of scum.
yeh, i don&#39;t get how this book is remotley anti-comunist, when it says the humans were just as bad as the pigs.

[Redmau5]

Not all the pigs were Stalinists. Snowball represented Trotsky, which is why he is chased off the farm, much like Trotsky&#39;s exile in 1929.

[bolshevik butcher]

sorry i meant at the end of the book.

[Soviet sally]

The book in a way praises the revolution up untill napoleon took over.

[waltersm]

But Animal Farm was a novel by George Orwell, a staunch socialist (though he was vehemently opposed to the Soviet Union). The story is an allegory for the Russian Revolution that casts Lenin/Marx (Old Major) and Trotsky (Snowball) in a positive light.



yeah, but when the cappies make us wacth it they don&#39;t tell us that

[El_Revolucionario]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 11:16 PM
Not all the pigs were Stalinists. Snowball represented Trotsky, which is why he is chased off the farm, much like Trotsky&#39;s exile in 1929.
Well yes Snowball was Trotsky, and reading the book one wants Snowball to take back the farm from Napoleon but sadly it never happens.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 04:57 AM
And the pigs were the Stalinists, the bourgeois ruling class fake communists. At the end, the message is that you could no longer tell the difference between the farmers (capitalists) and the pigs (Stalinists). They are the same kind of scum.
But what about this,

"The conclusion of Animal Farm is that a new ruling class has taken over that is "just as bad" if not "actually worse" than the old one...and there is no sign that it will ever be otherwise."

The conclusion of the book being that that&#39;s what communist revolution gives you, and what so-called communists will always give you is a dictatorship, that communism can&#39;t work because &#39;power corrupts&#39; and a communist revolution will always degenerate, that is an anti-revolutionary position, and the point being made by redstar in the sentence that i just quoted above.

[El_Revolucionario]

Originally posted by Black Dagger+May 14 2005, 04:46 PM--> (Black Dagger @ May 14 2005, 04:46 PM)
[email protected] 14 2005, 04:57 AM
And the pigs were the Stalinists, the bourgeois ruling class fake communists. At the end, the message is that you could no longer tell the difference between the farmers (capitalists) and the pigs (Stalinists). They are the same kind of scum.
But what about this,

"The conclusion of Animal Farm is that a new ruling class has taken over that is "just as bad" if not "actually worse" than the old one...and there is no sign that it will ever be otherwise."

The conclusion of the book being that that&#39;s what communist revolution gives you, and what so-called communists will always give you is a dictatorship, that communism can&#39;t work because &#39;power corrupts&#39; and a communist revolution will always degenerate, that is an anti-revolutionary position, and the point being made by redstar in the sentence that i just quoted above. [/b]
Is this commentary on the conclusion in the book? I don&#39;t think so. It was probably written in a review. The message of Animal Farm is that Stalin was fake and he was not a real communist. that&#39;s the message.

[comrade_mufasa]

Originally posted by Black Dagger+May 14 2005, 11:46 AM--> (Black Dagger @ May 14 2005, 11:46 AM)
[email protected] 14 2005, 04:57 AM
And the pigs were the Stalinists, the bourgeois ruling class fake communists. At the end, the message is that you could no longer tell the difference between the farmers (capitalists) and the pigs (Stalinists). They are the same kind of scum.
But what about this,

"The conclusion of Animal Farm is that a new ruling class has taken over that is "just as bad" if not "actually worse" than the old one...and there is no sign that it will ever be otherwise."

The conclusion of the book being that that&#39;s what communist revolution gives you, and what so-called communists will always give you is a dictatorship, that communism can&#39;t work because &#39;power corrupts&#39; and a communist revolution will always degenerate, that is an anti-revolutionary position, and the point being made by redstar in the sentence that i just quoted above. [/b]
The book doesnt put that every communist revolution will end in a dictatorship. It shows that a "vanguard led revolution" will turn into a dictatorship of some sort.


And the pigs were the Stalinists
No they were the vanguard party. To put it into the best words you should listen to Dead Prez&#39;s song "animal in man":


*two guys talking*
(guy 1)
Help me&#33;
(guy 2)
You want me to help you?
Man is evil, capable of nothing but destruction

(narrator)
Once upon a time
There was a very serious situation growing
There was a farmer and a farmyard filled with animals
And this is the story of their times

Verse 1
Old man sammy had a farm
Walked the land with the wife
Most of the time shit was calm
His whole life was maintained off the everyday labor
From the mules in the field to the cattle in the stable
This is how we kept food on this table (maxing)
You would have he was disabled by the way he be relaxing
Acting like mr. magnificent
But the animals were thinking something different
The sentiment was tension in the barnyard
Throughout the years they had been through mad drama
With the farmer, word is bond
And they all came to one conclusion
They argued there was no way they?d ever be free
If it was up to humans
Therefore the only course left was revolution which was
understandable
And since the pigs promised to lead in the interest of all the
animals
They planned a full attack
Under the leadership of hannibal
The fattest pig in the pack
The next morning on the farm
Everything was calm
Just before dawn
But before long
The sun got so hot it made the farm seem electric
Now check it
This is when that shit got hectic
Directed by hannibal, the animals attacked
Old sam was in a state of shock
And fell up on his back
And dropped his rifle
Reaching in vain
Each and every creature from the field at his throat
Screaming "kill, feel the pain."

Chorus
This is the animal in man
This is the animal in you
This is the animal in man
Coming true (2x)

Verse 2
After they ran the farmer off the farm
The pigs went around and called a meeting in the barn
Hannibal spoke for several hours
But when talks about his plans for power
That?s when the conversation turned sour
He issued an offical ordinance to set
If not a pig from this day forth then you insubordinate
That?s when the horses went buckwild
One of them shouted out
"you fraudulent pigs, we know your fucking style&#33;"
Hannibal?s face was flushed and pale
All the animals eyes full of disgust and betrayal
He felt the same way sam felt
They took his tongue out of his mouth
And cut his body up for sale, for real
You better listen while you can
Its a very thin line between animal and man
When hannibal crossed the line they all took a stand
What would have done?
Shook his hand?
This is the animal in man

Chorus (4x)

Narrator
Remember...

I only needed to show the one lyric, but the song is good, so w/e.

[Black Dagger]

Is this commentary on the conclusion in the book? I don&#39;t think so. It was probably written in a review.

It&#39;s from a piece written by Redstar, on orwell.

here (http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1105929449&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)



The message of Animal Farm is that Stalin was fake and he was not a real communist. that&#39;s the message.

Read the above article. The argument (to which you have no responded) was that the book is written in such a way that presents NO hope for this to ever be different. As far the logic of the book is concerned, communist revolutions will always fail because of
the inherently authoritarian nature of marxism, or the the notion that &#39;absolute power corrupts absolutely&#39;, this is the image of communism that is presented. It&#39;s already been mentioned by several people, but if the book was no anti-communist, why would it be required reading in so many western countries? And if you dont want to admit that the book is fundamentally anti-revolutionary and anti-communist, consider that regardless of what you think the &#39;real&#39; meaning of the book is, it is nevertheless presented by the education system as an example of how communism/revolutuion &#39;never works&#39;, of totalitarian &#39;communism&#39;. It&#39;s not used as a tool to teach kiddies about the differences between Leninism and classical marxism, or between Leninism and Anarchism. It&#39;s used to further discredit revolutionary struggle, and communism as a concept. How it&#39;s used is just as important as what you may think the meaning of the book is.



The book doesnt put that every communist revolution will end in a dictatorship. It shows that a "vanguard led revolution" will turn into a dictatorship of some sort.

Except it provides no &#39;ray of hope&#39; to show that communist revolutions will ever do anything but degenerate.

[Commie Rat]

QUOTE (American Trotskyist)
Red Star is just a philistine who lacks any consitient belief system.



I believe that the word you want there is consistent.

And if that is what you meant to say, you are quite right. "Belief systems" -- like Trotskyism -- are pretty much useless for analyzing anything...except the psychological aberrations of the believers.

I have reported your remarks to the Disciplinary Sub-Committee of the Central Committee of the Philistine Communist Party.

what is a Philistine?

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 03:57 AM
RedStar2000 Vs. American Trotskyist, Round one&#33;

First person to insult the other person to the point of soiling themselves wins&#33;

What if a bystander soils themself? This is a purely hypothetic question.

Anyway, one of my teachers a few years ago said that Animal Farm was an allegory, and Orwell was a rabid anti-communist. It&#39;s not like i believe her, as most of the time she gets information on sparknotes.com

[Black Dagger]

Your teacher was right, about this at least.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Commie [email protected] 15 2005, 09:51 AM

QUOTE (American Trotskyist)
Red Star is just a philistine who lacks any consitient belief system.



I believe that the word you want there is consistent.

And if that is what you meant to say, you are quite right. "Belief systems" -- like Trotskyism -- are pretty much useless for analyzing anything...except the psychological aberrations of the believers.

I have reported your remarks to the Disciplinary Sub-Committee of the Central Committee of the Philistine Communist Party.

what is a Philistine?
An unsophisticated person, who lacks understanding, and a interest in intellectual matters, and the finer things in life, such as literature.

Of course, in the case of Redstar this is not strictly true.

[El_Revolucionario]

Redstar is a very ignorant reactionary. his rants against orwell are truly pathetic.

[RevolverNo9]

I certainly don&#39;t have the energy to go into this again, I think someone&#39;s already posted a link to the original discussion, but one quote from an essay that Orwell wrote during the war comes to mind:

"Only revolution can save England, that has been clear for a long time."

If people want to understand his views, they should read, also written during the war, his &#39;The Lion and the Unicorn: Socialism and the English Genius&#39;. He disagreed with Marxism, but that does not change the fact that he believed in a radical overthrow of current society to be replaced by a democratically planned economy. He ends the text by saying:

"Through revolution we become more ourselves, not less."

[El_Revolucionario]

It should also be noted that Orwell fought on the side of the communists/socialists/anarchists in the Spanish Civil war.

[bolshevik butcher]

Orwell did much more for soiclaism than anyone on this board.

[RevolverNo9]

But the contention is that AFTER the Spanish War Orwell gave up on the ideas of socialism. While his conceptions were severely shaken, if one actually READS what he wrote after the conflict, it is clear what he believed.

[jcbn]

I didn&#39;t read this whole thread, but it&#39;s worth mentioning that George Orwell was a snitch for the imperialist British state. On his death-bed, Orwell handed over a list of "suspected communists" to British intelligence, something acknowledged by Orwell supporters and critics alike. He was a snitch and a hypocrite who shouldn&#39;t be held up as any sort of hero by leftists, regardless of their stance on Stalin.

The great African American singer and internationalist fighter Paul Robeson was one of the people named on Orwell&#39;s list. Next to Robeson&#39;s name, Orwell wrote "very anti-white." Only a closet white-racist would have called Robeson "anti-white." The list also contained anti-Semitic and homophobic sentiments.

Here&#39;s a 1998 article from The Nation by Alexander Cockburn that rightly tears into the Orwell hype:

(http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/marxism/2002w48/msg00058.htm)