In Memory of Bobby Sands, May 5, 1981

[coda]

Bobby Sands, Freedom Fighter, Volunteer Irish Republican Army,

"I am a political prisoner. I am a political prisoner because I am a casualty of a perennial war that is being fought between the oppressed Irish people and an alien, oppressive, unwanted regime that refuses to withdraw from our land."

---diary entry, first day of hunger strike



Cealacha (irish) 1. hunger strike to the death, 2. justice by starvation


2005 marks the 24th commemoration of the Irish Hunger strikes in the H-blocks of the Maze/Long Kesh Prison. On the heels of a 4-year protest by 350 Irish Republican political prisoners for political status that was rescinded in favor of Criminalization policy, a further attempt was made through the historic Irish tradition of political hungerstriking to regain political status and be granted recognition from the British Government that Irish Republican paramilitaries were politically motivated in their aspect of armed struggle and resistance against the illegitimate occupation and British militarism in the north of Ireland.

The Thatcher government refused to repeal criminalization and reinstate Special Category status to political prisoners, recognize the political motivation of the Irish struggle, give Ireland back to the Irish or even acknowledge the Hunger strike.

Sands, age 27, elected to the British parliament during the hunger strike died May 5, 1981, followed in quick succession by three other Irish Republican prisoners in May and seven others between June & August 1981.

The fight for independence from foreign and domestic military aggression all over the world continues .....



Persuade him to eat or drink? ?
While he is lying there, Perishing there, my good name in the world
Is perishing also. I cannot give way.
Because I am king; because if I give way,
My nobles would call me a weakling, and, it may be,
The very throne be shaken.

- William Butler Yeats, The King?s Threshold



Murals of hungerstrikers:

http://irelandsown.net/belfstx.gif

http://irelandsown.net/artybhoy.bmp



Those who died:

Bobby Sands, (IRA) Volunteer, Irish Republican Army
Officer Commanding, Irish Republican Army, Maze Prison,
(MP) Member of British Parliament,

Born: March 9, 1954 in Rathcoole, Belfast
Died: May 5, 1981 at age 27, Maze Prison
Conviction: October 1977, 14 years for possession of firearms
Began Strike: March 1
Days on Strike: 66 days without food
Candidacy: April, 1981 Fermanagh-South Tyrone by-election, won by over 30,000 votes


Frank Hughes, (IRA)Volunteer, Irish Republican Army

Born: February 28, 1956 in Bellagh, South Derry
Died: May 12, 1981 at age 25, Maze Prison
Conviction: February 1980, life for murder, 14 years for attempted murder, and 55 years on three other charges
Began Strike: March 14
Days on Strike: 59 days without food


Patsy O'Hara, (INLA) Volunteer, Irish National Liberation Army
Officer Commanding, Irish National Liberation Army, Maze Prison

Born: July 11, 1957 in Derry City
Died: May 21, 1981 at age 24, Maze Prison
Conviction: January 1980, 8 years for possession of hand grenade
Began Strike: March 22
Days on Strike: 61 days without food


Raymond McCreesh, (IRA) Volunteer, Irish Republican Army

Born: February 25, 1957 in Camlough, South Armagh
Died: May 21, 1981 at age 24, Maze Prison
Conviction: March 1977, 14 years for possession of firearms
Began Strike: March 22, 1981
Days on Strike: 61 days without food


Joe McDonnell, (IRA) Volunteer, Irish Republican Army

Born: September 14, 1951 in Lenadoon, West Belfast
Died: July 8, 1981 at age 30, Maze Prison
Conviction: September 1977 for 14 years possession of firearms
Began Strike: May 9
Days on Strike: 61 days without food
Candidacy: June, 1981, Leitrim general election, narrowly lost by 315 votes


Martin Hurson, (IRA) Volunteer, Irish Republican Army

Born: September 14, 1956 in Aughnaskea, Dungannon
Died: July 13, 1981 at age 25, Maze Prison
Conviction: November 1977, 20 years for possession of landmines and conspiracy, as well as two other sentences of 15 and 5 years respectively, the sentences to run concurrently
Began Strike:May 29
Days on Strike: 46 days without food
Candidacy: June, Longford-Westmeath general election, lost in sixth count, but obtained almost 4,500 first preference votes, and over 1,000 transfers


Kevin Lynch, (INLA) Volunteer, Irish National Liberation Army

Born: May 25, 1956
Died: August 1, 1981 at age 25, Maze Prison
Conviction: December 1977, 10 years for conspiracy to disarm members of the enemy forces, taking part in a punishment shooting, and the taking of "legally held" shotguns
Began Strike:May 23
Days on Strike: 71 days without food
Candidacy: June, Waterford general election, lost in fifth count but obtained 3,753 votes


Kieran Doherty, (IRA)Volunteer, Irish Republican Army
MP, Irish Parliament,

Born: October 16, 1955 in Andersontown
Died: August 2, 1981 at age 26, Maze Prison
Conviction: January 1978, 18 years for possession of firearms, 4 years for commandeering a car
Began Strike: May 22
Days on Strike: 73 days without food
Candidacy: June, Leinster House parliament general election for Cavan/Monaghan constituency, won with 9,121 first preference votes


Thomas McElwee, (IRA) Volunteer, Irish Republican Army

Born: November 30, 1957 in Bellaghy, South Derry
Died: August 8, 1981 at age 24, Maze Prison
Conviction: September 1977, 20 years for possession of explosives and accidental murder (later reduced to manslaughter)
Began Strike: June 8
Days on Strike: 62 days without food


Michael Devine, (INLA) Volunteer, Irish National Liberation Army

Born: May 26, 1954 in Springtown, Derry City
Died: August 20, 1981 at age 27, Maze Prison
Conviction: June 1977, 12 years for possession of stolen firearms
Began Strike: June 22
Days on Strike: 60 days without food



KING: . . . He has chosen death:
Refusing to eat or drink, that he may bring
Disgrace upon me; for there is a custom,
An old and foolish custom, that if a man
Be wronged, or think that he is wronged, and starve
Upon another's threshold till he die,
The Common People, for all time to come,
Will raise a heavy cry against that threshold,
Even though it be the King's.

-- W.B. Yeats, The King's Threshold



The H-block Song
-Francie Brolley

I am a proud young Irishman.
In Ulster's hills my life began;
A happy boy through green fields ran;
I kept God's and man's laws.
But when my age was barely ten
My country's wrongs were told again.
By tens of thousands marching men
And my heart stirred to the cause.

So I'll wear no convict's uniform
Nor meekly serve my time
That Britain might brand lreland 's fight
Eight hundred years of crime.

I learned of centuries of strife,
Of cruel laws, injustice rife;
I saw now in my own young life
The fruits of foreign sway:
Protestors threatened, tortured, maimed,
Divisions nurtured, passions flamed,
Outrage provoked, right's cause defamed;
That is the conqueror's way.

Descended from proud Connacht clan,
Concannon served cruel Britain' s plan;
Man' s inhumanity to man
Had spawned a trusty slave.
No strangers are these bolts and locks,
No new design these dark H-Blocks,
Black Cromwell lives while Mason stalks;
The bully taunts the brave.

Does Britain need a thousand years
Of protest, riot, death and tears,
Or will this past decade of fears
Of eighty decades spell
An end to Ireland' s agony,
New hope for human dignity;
And will the last obscenity
Be this grim H-Block cell?



"It is repression that creates the revolutionary spirit of freedom.."


The Rhythm Of Time

There's an inner thing in every man,
Do you know this thing my friend?
It has withstood the blows of a million years,
And will do so to the end.

It was born when time did not exist,
And it grew up out of life,
It cut down evil's strangling vines,
Like a slashing searing knife.

It lit fires when fires were not,
And burnt the mind of man,
Tempering leandened hearts to steel,
From the time that time began.

It wept by the waters of Babylon,
And when all men were a loss,
It screeched in writhing agony,
And it hung bleeding from the Cross.

It died in Rome by lion and sword,
And in defiant cruel array,
When the deathly word was 'Spartacus'
Along with Appian Way.

It marched with Wat the Tyler's poor,
And frightened lord and king,
And it was emblazoned in their deathly stare,
As e'er a living thing.

It smiled in holy innocence,
Before conquistadors of old,
So meek and tame and unaware,
Of the deathly power of gold.

It burst forth through pitiful Paris streets,
And stormed the old Bastille,
And marched upon the serpent's head,
And crushed it 'neath its heel.

It died in blood on Buffalo Plains,
And starved by moons of rain,
Its heart was buried in Wounded Knee,
But it will come to rise again.

It screamed aloud by Kerry lakes,
As it was knelt upon the ground,
And it died in great defiance,
As they coldly shot it down.

It is found in every light of hope,
It knows no bounds nor space
It has risen in red and black and white,
It is there in every race.

It lies in the hearts of heroes dead,
It screams in tyrants' eyes,
It has reached the peak of mountains high,
It comes searing 'cross the skies.

It lights the dark of this prison cell,
It thunders forth its might,
It is 'the undauntable thought', my friend,
That thought that says 'I'm right!'

- Bobby Sands, written in the Maze Prison.



Boycotts during strike:
http://www.nyu.edu/library/bobst/research/...rt/boycotts.htm (http://www.nyu.edu/library/bobst/research/aia/exhibits/0501_hunger/support/boycotts.htm)

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/hstrike/chronology.htm
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/index.html
http://www.bobbysandstrust.org/home.asp
http://www.house.gov/capuano/news/2001/pr051001.htm

[Anti-establishment]

Nice post mate, very nice.

[bolshevik butcher]

nice, but i still think the IRA is a terrorist organisation.

[Redmau5]

The IRA has now degenerated into some sort of criminal organisation. There is alot of good men in the IRA, however it has been ruined by the people who join it to get rich quick and whose only desire is to have some sort of reputation.

Their war was totally justified however. They made mistakes and innocents were killed, but civilians get killed in war. If circumstances changed and they had to return to "bombs and bullets", i would fully support them before i would call them "terrorists".

That post about the hunger strikers was an excellent post. R.I.P. to Bobby Sands and to all his comrades who died in the H-blocks.

[Anti-establishment]

Clenched fist no one asked you what you thought about anything.

[rootsradical]

A brave man amongst many brave men.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by Anti-[email protected] 30 2005, 12:23 PM
Clenched fist no one asked you what you thought about anything.
oh ims sorry sir, mr noob, can i please bow before you and lick your ass, and please please let me polish your boots. In a forum for DISCUSSION, it is generally acceptable for people to put across their opinions.

[Cal]

Great Post,

No matter your views on the troubles, for any man to put himself through arguably the most painful and torturous way to die says something on what the struggle meant to them.

[RedAnarchist]

Those men were so young, yet they sacrificed their most valued possession - their lives, for their beliefs. It takes a lot of guts and a lot of determinatiuon to do what those young men did. They must have loved liberation and freedom so much. I dont know the Irish for brave, but their names are synonymous with that word.

I am ashamed to be British. Their deaths were not caused by hunger, but by the imperialistic ways of the United Kingdom and it's monarchy.

[Bolshevist]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 30 2005, 11:39 AM
nice, but i still think the IRA is a terrorist organisation.
So people who fight British imperialism is terrorists?

[Cal]

am ashamed to be British. Their deaths were not caused by hunger, but by the imperialistic ways of the United Kingdom and it's monarchy.


I wouldn't go that far, the hunger strikes were primarily due to the UK home office not granting the IRA prisoners 'political' status, i doubt they would've occurred if this status had been granted.

Public attitude in the UK was so hostile towards the IRA at this time that if any government had granted concessions to any IRA prisoners they wouldn't have lasted a week, I personally am in awe at these men, I do not agree with their actions or with terrorism but to put their bodies thorugh what they did as you say takes an extraordinary amount of guts and passion for your cause.

[Maksym]

http://www.sinnfeinbookshop.com/media/sandspost.jpg

If you have problems with the IRA then take it to another thread. This thread is about commemorating a martyr, not spreading BBC propaganda.

[Cal]

This thread is about commemorating a martyr

Which is exactly what I was doing.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by Twisted+May 4 2005, 01:44 PM--> (Twisted @ May 4 2005, 01:44 PM)
Clenched [email protected] 30 2005, 11:39 AM
nice, but i still think the IRA is a terrorist organisation.
So people who fight British imperialism is terrorists? [/b]
If this involves attrocities like the Omah boming yes. Look I am not justifiying the occupation of Ireland, i am jsut saying that the IRA is a terror group.

[Maksym]

Originally posted by Clenched Fist+May 4 2005, 03:48 PM--> (Clenched Fist @ May 4 2005, 03:48 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 01:44 PM

Clenched [email protected] 30 2005, 11:39 AM
nice, but i still think the IRA is a terrorist organisation.
So people who fight British imperialism is terrorists?
If this involves attrocities like the Omah boming yes. Look I am not justifiying the occupation of Ireland, i am jsut saying that the IRA is a terror group. [/b]
The RIRA planned and conducted the Omagh bombing, not the IRA.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by maksym+May 4 2005, 04:17 PM--> (maksym @ May 4 2005, 04:17 PM)
Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 4 2005, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 01:44 PM

Clenched [email protected] 30 2005, 11:39 AM
nice, but i still think the IRA is a terrorist organisation.
So people who fight British imperialism is terrorists?
If this involves attrocities like the Omah boming yes. Look I am not justifiying the occupation of Ireland, i am jsut saying that the IRA is a terror group.
The RIRA planned and conducted the Omagh bombing, not the IRA. [/b]
ok, the bombings of british pubs in the 70's.

[coda]

This post was made to honor the memory of Bobby Sands and the Hunger strikers. not to shit on their graves.

Since I knew whispers of "terrorism" would come up, I was careful to add their individual convictions -- convictions made in trials without juries and having previously been interred without charges. Taken collectively, there is only one hungerstriker, convicted of murder that of a legitimate military target. The other involuntary manslaughter. The rest represented the typical IRA volunteer who for the most part, never participated in an actual IRA paramilitary operation. Those were few and far between.


There were three pub bombings in the 1970's which the British attributed to the IRA and which the IRA did not attribute to themselves as their classic modus operandi would entitle -- they've always taken responsibility and credit for their paramilitary actions i.e. the killing of Lord Mountbattan, with the accompanying statement: "This operation is one of the discriminate ways we can bring to the attention of the English people the continuing occupation of our country." To carry out an action and then not claim ownership would defeat their purpose in knowingly engaging the enemy to concede.

The Birmingham 6 were acquitted in 1991 of any role in the 1974 Birmingham pub bombing after recent advanced ballistic testing proved their innocence and each were awarded sums of money up to 1.2 million pounds for their wrongful convictions and incarcerations.

The Guildford and Woolwich Pub bombings in 1974, where again, quick and unfounded incriminations against the IRA led to the wrongful convictions of the Maguire 7 and Guildford 4 all of whom weren't even members of the IRA and had had their confessions beaten out of them --- in fact the Magure 7 were a stodgy old Irish family living in England at the time and big fans of the Queen--- and later that conviction was also overturned.

It's also known now that the highest level of British Intelligence -- the M16 and SAS had infilterated the IRA and helped plan and carry out IRA bombing operations, even taking out their own British operatives.

So, there you go.

None of ANY of it would have happened if the British Government were to give up their possession and occupation of the north of Ireland. This is only an interim cease-fire -- the Troubles are going to start up over and over again until they do.

[Cal]

None of ANY of it would have happened if the British Government were to give up their possession and occupation of the north of Ireland. This is only an interim cease-fire -- the Troubles are going to start up over and over again until they do.


Have a think about that statement, if Britain was to give up the province do you not think that the Unionists would escalate their violence and then a similar Republican response would be initiated, I'm not defending some of the actions of the British but the only pragmatic way forward is for power sharing and the development of co-operation at all levels leading to self government, this is the course currently being adopted. This is incredibly difficult for both sides to reconcile and will take time but stability is the key now not a vanishing of one of the groups involved.

To the original point of the thread, as I have said in every post I am in awe of these men, and wish I could drum up that sort of passion.

[Andrei Kuznetsov]

*raises fist* To give your life for the people is weightier than Mount Tai, as Mao Tse-Tung said... thank you Bobby, for the life you lived and the life you gave.

Tiocfaidh ar La (Our Day Will Come), and our greatest revenge will be the laughter of our children...

[coda]

<<<<<<Have a think about that statement, if Britain was to give up the province do you not think that the Unionists would escalate their violence and then a similar Republican response would be initiated, I&#39;m not defending some of the actions of the British but the only pragmatic way forward is for power sharing and the development of co-operation at all levels leading to self government, this is the course currently being adopted. This is incredibly difficult for both sides to reconcile and will take time but stability is the key now not a vanishing of one of the groups involved.&#33;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Self-government isn&#39;t what&#39;s being adopted. What they&#39;ve got is Stormont --- A puppet Irish pawn government under British rule. And what&#39;s more, it&#39;s falling apart. It&#39;s near collapse. This whole power-sharing agreement has recruited more IRA than ever and they are pulling out from their cease-fire.

Here&#39;s the solution to the problem: The British relinquish their stronghold and occupation and partition of that piece of land mass that is physically connected to the Republic of Ireland and if the Unionist so desire British rule than they should relocate and assimilate to British territory and the North and Republican of Ireland can do the powersharing. There is too deep a history of opression and class discrimination, and hatred and murder extending from it that they could ever work from common ground. The burden is on the British and their Unionist lackeys to settle this shit in the only right way. What is so fucking valuable about the north of Ireland that the British government will not spare any costs to keep it?

[Cal]

and if the Unionist so desire British rule than they should relocate and assimilate to British territory

So your solution is to displace people and communities who have lived there for many generations?

Believe it or not their is a large &#39;British&#39;population in Northern Ireland who wish to remain as British citizens/subjects, these people have also sufferred during the troubles, why do they have to leave their homes?



What is so fucking valuable about the north of Ireland that the British government will not spare any costs to keep it?

What is valuable is that a large percentage of the population thinks of itself as being British.

[coda]

Right. In fact, On Aug. 15, Ariel Sharon begins relocating Israelis off the West Bank, very similiar situation. It may be tough and suck for some but it&#39;s the major issue that will clear the way for lasting peace there and would do the same for the north of Ireland. In the same respect, there is a big population who wish to remain as IRISH citizens who have suffered and thrown headlong into the Troubles because of British occupation and those who are loyal to British rule. There wouldn&#39;t be ANY Troubles if there wasn&#39;t those elements. It&#39;s an easy call -- Give Ireland back to the Irish. The burden is on the British and the Unionist.

what&#39;s at stake is imperial assets-- the nice Irish ports and the fact that Northern Ireland was very strategic to Britain and the allies during WW2, as a buffer, and they know they may need that once again, and opposed to the Irish motherland who remained neutral and unhelpful at all.

[Cal]

Ariel Sharon begins relocating Israelis off the West Bank, very similiar situation.

What? Israel as a state was only created in 1947, these settlers have moved in within the last 40 years, the people in Northern Ireland who believe themselves to be British have been there for generations, most can credit their family history in Ulster as far as is possible to research, to compare the two situations is farcical. Unionists and people who live in Northern Ireland who regard themselves a sBritish have just as much history in the area as those who are Republican, they haven&#39;t just moved in.


the nice Irish ports and the fact that Northern Ireland was very strategic to Britain and the allies during WW2, as a buffer,


Britain is an island, it has plenty of ports.


and they know they may need that once again

With the technology available in modern warfare what the hell is their to gain by having another piece of rock next to your own? Shocking argument.
Irish citizens are also eligable to serve in the UK services so what exactly is it a buffer aginst?

[Redmau5]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 01:37 PM
Unionists and people who live in Northern Ireland who regard themselves a sBritish have just as much history in the area as those who are Republican, they haven&#39;t just moved in.







So you are saying that the people in Ireland have only been there as long as the British have ? The British only came here en masse about 400-500 years ago during the plantations. The Irish people were here a long before that, believe me.


Britain is an island, it has plenty of ports.

Then why were Northern Irish ports used so much during the two World Wars ?

I have no problem with British people living here, i just don&#39;t want the British government here. They conquered Ireland which means that they are Imperialist. No socialist can support Imperialism of any kind.

[Enragé]

Northern Ireland is a natural part of the republic of ireland&#33;

Down with british imperialism, Tiocfaidh Ar La&#33;&#33;&#33;

"Believe it or not their is a large &#39;British&#39;population in Northern Ireland who wish to remain as British citizens/subjects, these people have also sufferred during the troubles, why do they have to leave their homes?"

they shouldnt have to. Anyways it doesnt matter anymore, the nationalist population is growing. The only threat to freedom now is the Stormont Sellout and the criminal acts of the PIRA

up the CIRA
up the RIRA
up the INLA
END THE STORMONT SELLOUT&#33;

[Redmau5]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 02:02 PM
criminal acts of the PIRA


What about the Omagh bomb ? That was a real way forward to a united Ireland. And what about the reports of the CIRA and the LVF drug-dealing in the same room in night clubs ? Oh yeah and there is that little thing about £500,000 worth of coke found in a INLA drug-den a few weeks ago.

I wouldn&#39;t lend my support to any of them.

[coda]

Look Cal, it&#39;s a no-brainer. It&#39;s a no-brainer to everybody who is anti-imperalist and everybody who isn&#39;t British supporting British rule or who isn&#39;t Unionist. The Unionists are a bunch of quislings and nonetheless delusional. They aren&#39;t British.. and the British don&#39;t even view them as British.

What you&#39;re not seemingly understanding is that Ireland has been under Britains imperialist rule since the 1580&#39;s. Ireland never ceded any land to Britain. And the Constitution of the Republican of Ireland implicitedly stated support for an inclusive 32 County Ireland until that very compromised Good Friday Agreement. It doesn&#39;t matter how long the Unionist have been living there, the current people living there now have been there for not more than one life time.. So, the Unionist can either trace their history back to Ireland directly or trace their history back to the Britaish colonisation of Ireland, which still makes them Irish having been born in the six counties. The modern era of the Troubles begain in 1921 with partition, not so far from 1947. Before that Northern Ireland was considered the north of Ireland still part of what is now the Republic of Ireland and beyond the pale. Besides what are you saying? Are the Scottish British too? How about the Chinese people who were formally under British rule in Hong Kong.. were they British too then? It&#39;s just a big sectarian divide that favors Unionists toward British rule and gives them the upperhand and a nice majority and puts the Republicans at a distinct minority in class oppression, but not so when you include the wishes of the Repub. of Ireland Sure, the Unionists can stay.. by why would they want to stay under an inevitable united Ireland.

[Anti-establishment]

Originally posted by Clenched Fist+Apr 30 2005, 08:31 PM--> (Clenched Fist &#064; Apr 30 2005, 08:31 PM)
Anti&#045;[email protected] 30 2005, 12:23 PM
Clenched fist no one asked you what you thought about anything.
oh ims sorry sir, mr noob, can i please bow before you and lick your ass, and please please let me polish your boots. In a forum for DISCUSSION, it is generally acceptable for people to put across their opinions. [/b]
As was said - this about commemorating martrys, not criticising them so take it somewhere else.

For a while there I was beginning to think the bbc were impartial (dunno why i thought this), but how wrong I was, I took a look a look at the On This Day section and read the bit about Bobby Sands, typical British muck&#33;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/s...000/2728309.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/5/newsid_2728000/2728309.stm)

[Enragé]

"What about the Omagh bomb ? That was a real way forward to a united Ireland. And what about the reports of the CIRA and the LVF drug-dealing in the same room in night clubs ? Oh yeah and there is that little thing about £500,000 worth of coke found in a INLA drug-den a few weeks ago"

The high casualties at Omagh were due to negligance by the police forces, A WARNING WAS ISSUED&#33;

CIRA doesnt deal drugs. Even if some members do, this is not the official line of the CIRA or of the INLA. And the information you get, you get from mostly pro-brit newspapers, how the fuck do you know that "drug den" was of the INLA. And even if they do deal drugs, so does FARC and ELN. It does not deminish anything from the righteousness of their struggles.

[bolshevik butcher]

yeh, israel is not the same situation,you cannot move people out when their families have been there for 400 yrs. It&#39;s not practical, and the IRA is a terror group, it DELIBBRATLEY TARGETS CIVILIANS, with the aim of creatin fear.

[coda]

Oh, that is crap Clenshed Fist, they don&#39;t deliberately go after civilizens. They only go after military, government or British financial interests. That is how urban warfare is fought. I can&#39;t believe the people here who support British imperialism.

The families haven&#39;t been there for 400 years. :lol: At time most they&#39;ve been there one life span.. which equals about 75 years in developed countries&#33;

wow, what propaganda.

Enough shit. Have some respect for the dead whose only crime was possession of a gun.

[Enragé]

"Oh, that is crap Clenshed Fist, they don&#39;t deliberately go after civilizens. They only go after military, government or British financial interests. That is how urban warfare is fought. I can&#39;t believe the people here who support British imperialism. "

exactly&#33;&#33;&#33;

[Anti-establishment]

Clenched Fist this thread isn&#39;t about the IRA&#39;s status you prick&#33; Fuckin wise up.

If only they targeted you :rolleyes:

[Redmau5]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 06:06 PM




The high casualties at Omagh were due to negligance by the police forces, A WARNING WAS ISSUED&#33;

The bomb shouldn&#39;t have been there in the first place. It was absolutely pointless and only decreased what little support the RIRA has.

[/QUOTE]CIRA doesnt deal drugs. Even if some members do, this is not the official line of the CIRA or of the INLA. And the information you get, you get from mostly pro-brit newspapers, how the fuck do you know that "drug den" was of the INLA. And even if they do deal drugs, so does FARC and ELN. It does not deminish anything from the righteousness of their struggles.[QUOTE]

The murder of Robert McCartney was not the official line of the IRA, yet the IRA is still blamed. The INLA haven&#39;t done anything in years and the CIRA unit in my area write "suppourt your local CIRA unit" on the walls as well as "your suppouse to be Irish". They can&#39;t even spell let alone do anything to take us forward to a unified Ireland. The only thing i ever remember them doing was planting a bomb on a bus outside Suffolk road barracks.

Im sure Bobby Sands would have been proud <_< .

[bolshevik butcher]

Hey you emntioned the IRA first, and I am not dneying this man is a hero. And if they&#39;d targeted me it would have fufilled my point.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by Makaveli_05+May 5 2005, 02:21 PM--> (Makaveli_05 @ May 5 2005, 02:21 PM)
[email protected] 5 2005, 02:02 PM
criminal acts of the PIRA


What about the Omagh bomb ? That was a real way forward to a united Ireland. And what about the reports of the CIRA and the LVF drug-dealing in the same room in night clubs ? Oh yeah and there is that little thing about £500,000 worth of coke found in a INLA drug-den a few weeks ago.

I wouldn&#39;t lend my support to any of them. [/b]
That&#39;s not true and you should know better than to repeat such propagnada.

The drugs found belonged to several people, one of whom had been involved in the RSM over ten years ago. Another had been in the PIRA years ago, and several had never been involved in any republican grouping.



__________________________________


IRSP: INLA Statement Regarding Drugs Find

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

21 April 2005
Irish Republican Socialist Party

The following statement was received by the Irish Republican
Socialist Party from the Irish National Liberation Army on 21 April
2005:

"The Tyrone Brigade of the INLA wish to put it on record that it has
no involvement whatsoever in the drugs trade. The person arrested in
Dungannon has had no association of any kind, directly or indirectly,
with the INLA or IRSP for 16 years.

"We do not accept any kind of responsibility for the actions of ex-
members who have went down the road of criminality. Our position is
clear and unequivocal in relation to the drugs trade * anyone
using the name of the INLA or inferring any type of association,
directly or indirectly, with our movement will be executed."

###

Irish Republican Socialist Party
http://www.irsm.org/irsm.html

[Felicia]

Did it say that one of those people were in for "Attempted murder", "Murder" and posessing some serious firearms. I&#39;d say that&#39;s when you&#39;re not a "political prisoner" anymore. Being imprisioned for what you believe in is one thing, but being imprisioned for killing, attempting to kill makes you a regular old fucking prisoner to me. If I went out and killed someone, and then claimed I was a political prisoner because of my politics, that would be a bit stupid, I wouildn&#39;t be a prisoner because of my politics, it would be because I killed someone.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 02:39 PM
Did it say that one of those people were in for "Attempted murder", "Murder" and posessing some serious firearms. I&#39;d say that&#39;s when you&#39;re not a "political prisoner" anymore. Being imprisioned for what you believe in is one thing, but being imprisioned for killing, attempting to kill makes you a regular old fucking prisoner to me. If I went out and killed someone, and then claimed I was a political prisoner because of my politics, that would be a bit stupid, I wouildn&#39;t be a prisoner because of my politics, it would be because I killed someone.
Another liberal comes out of the closet.

You&#39;re right, past revolutions and anti-imperialist wars were made with feather dusters, kisses and flowers.

Bobby Sands had an unloaded gun in the boot of the car he was in. That&#39;s not even a crime in north america if I remember correctly.

So for this, you feel it was legitimate for the British state to imprison, torture, and kill him. Good for you.

[Anti-establishment]

&#39;&#39;If I went out and killed someone, and then claimed I was a political prisoner because of my politics, that would be a bit stupid, I wouildn&#39;t be a prisoner because of my politics, it would be because I killed someone.&#39;&#39;


No you are a bit stupid, it was a fucking war - WAR - how hard is that to understand. POW&#39;s are always given special status everywhere, so why not Irish Republican volunteers.

Ya shithead.

[coda]

Frank Hughes, the "regular old murderer" hit a legitamate Military target.

The rest of those prisoners most of who were caught with guns, and a lot of them just found in a house with a gun in it, during night raids while rounding up suspected IRA affiliates--- were already volunteers of the IRA, thus making them political prisoners and having a political motive ---the immediate withdrawal of British troops out of northern of Ireland.

If you are familiar with the history of the "Troubles" and what brought the modern IRA back out of retirement was due to the escalated occupation of British troops and the daily assailing of tanks roaming the streets, random searches and checkpoints and particular harrassment of Irish Republicans. Here are 42 photos of the conditions of Derry BEFORE the IRA went back into active operation

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/melaugh/portfolio2/index.html

This led to "Bloody Sunday" when British Army paratroopers shot into a crowd of peaceful prostesters in Derry protesting against heavy troop presence. Then, only after that the IRA rightfully resumed active operations with the support of the Republican population, as an Irish volunteer force protecting the people against a mightier British army.

That&#39;s the story. And whether one seems them as "terrorists" or as people with the right to resist aggressive foreign military occupation depends on what side of the fence your ideology falls.

A good unbiased indepth analysis of the Troubles is CAIN
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/index.html

[Anti-establishment]

That made sense, but lets call Frank Hughes by his real name, Francis Hughes lol. Now there was a guy who will go down in republican folklore.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by Anti&#045;[email protected] 6 2005, 06:58 PM
That made sense, but lets call Frank Hughes by his real name, Francis Hughes lol. Now there was a guy who will go down in republican folklore.
Or you can call im &#39;Franci&#39; ;)

Almost as great a soldier as my namesake. :ph34r:

[PRC-UTE]

Nice links, Indigo.

One of the men who went on to found the Irish National Liberation Army, Red Mickey Doherty, also got his start defending his people from aggression. He was wounded but returned fire on bloody sunday. RIP Red Mickey.

[coda]

Francie&#33;&#33;&#33; yeah&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

another who goes down into Republican Legacy: still alive though, is Brendan (Bic) McFarlane, OC during the hungerstrike and led the 1983 Maze Prison Escape&#33;

also can&#39;t forget Brendan Hughes, from the 1980 Hungerstrike. also still alive.

Mickey Devine, the last hungerstriker, was also called Red Mickey.

[Enragé]

http://www.irishrepublicanarmy.info/

I used to come there alot, though i have lost interest in it, its still a great site if you want to know more about the IRA&#39;s. They have a great forum too.

[Redmau5]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 07:43 PM
RIP Red Mickey.
RIP to ALL of the hunger strikers.

[Mitch Flo]

Once some english men tried to do a hunger strike... the men were imprisoned and they survived for like 3 months... when finally the english realised that they shoulda been dead already... They went into the prisoners&#39; room they found all these candy bar rappers and stuff like that... I found it funny.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by Makaveli_05+May 7 2005, 02:42 PM--> (Makaveli_05 @ May 7 2005, 02:42 PM)
[email protected] 6 2005, 07:43 PM
RIP Red Mickey.
RIP to ALL of the hunger strikers. [/b]
Red Mickey Doherty wasn&#39;t a hunger striker, Mickey Devine was.

[Redmau5]

Oh right i get ya now. Got slightly confused.

But Mickey Devine was INLA was he not ?

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by Mitch [email protected] 7 2005, 02:47 PM
Once some english men tried to do a hunger strike... the men were imprisoned and they survived for like 3 months... when finally the english realised that they shoulda been dead already... They went into the prisoners&#39; room they found all these candy bar rappers and stuff like that... I found it funny.
There was an English comrade who went on hunger strike in Greece not long ago, I forget the details though.

[coda]

Yes, Mickey Devine, Patsy O&#39;Hara & Kevin Lynch were INLA, which is the paramilitary wing of the Irish Republican Socialist Party. IRA the paramilitary of Sein Fein.

A large group of Turkish prisoners, male and female, also went on hungerstrike in very recent years. I think 39 or so, with deaths.

[Anti-establishment]

Theres a Basque Hunger Strike on at the minute, Mickey Óg Devine (son of Mickey) wrote a letter to the Andytown news about it asking for support for them.

[coda]

Here&#39;s the letter


March 18th

A Chara,

I would like to draw to the attention of your readers as we enter into
the twenty-fourth year since my father, Irish National Liberation Army
(INLA) Volunteer Micky Devine, and his comrades died on hunger strike
in the gulags of Long Kesh. At a time when we as republican socialists
and republicans look back on the significance of that struggle news
has broke of a similar pain and sacrifice currently unfolding in the
prisons of France and Spain. Following an announcement on the 16th
March 2005 by the Basque Political Prisoners&#39; Group (EPPK), it is now
estimated that 720 young men and women have begun an indefinite hunger
strike.

Following protest after protest within gaol, Basque political
prisoners, united for the first time ever through the EPPK have begun
an indefinite hunger strike to demand nothing more than recognition of
their political status, so that those incarcerated for political
activities and that of their people be given a voice within the
political arena with which to make their case.

Their struggle, in many ways resembles and even mirrors that which my
father and his comrades embarked on twenty-four years ago this year in
the struggle against a policy of criminalisation, however this is the
criminalisation of the entire Basque population by both France and
Spain.

As someone who has been personally affected by such a high profiled
hunger strike during the early eighties as a child, I would like to
extend my support and solidarity as an Irish republican socialist to
the families, friends, loved-ones and comrades of each and every
political prisoner involved.

To this day, I am deeply conscious of the fact that our own family and
that of the families of other INLA and IRA men on hunger strike back
in 1981 received widespread support from the people of the Euskal
Herria (Basque Country). Thousands came onto the streets to protest
across that country in anger at developments here in a gesture
international solidarity with their demands and in sympathy with the
families as lives were eventually lost.

However what gave my family and that of the other families and
relatives of 1981 the strength to carry on was the daily support and
solidarity from their communities. The action groups and international
committees who made sure that we were not alone in the fight for
justice.

The political prisoners and the people of Euskal Herria are not alone
in their fight for justice. It must also be made clear that both
French and Spanish authorities have an obligation to the hundreds of
political prisoners they hold. They must dispel themselves of their
perpetual arrogance towards the people of Euskal Herria as this has
been the trigger for recent developments and those of the past. They
have a duty to immediately open up channels already in existence, to
meet with the prisoners representatives and enter into dialogue so
this situation can be brought to a successful conclusion before any
lives are lost.

It is with this in mind that I would encourage everyone, republican or
otherwise to play their own small part in a gesture of solidarity with
the political prisoners and the people of Euskal Herria at this time.

You can write a letter of protest to the French and Spanish Embassies
in Ireland to immediately enter into dialogue before lives are lost.

Demand that these governments respect the human rights of all
prisoners and call for them to end the continuous torture and
punishment meted out against Basque political prisoners.

You can actively participate in the Basque-Ireland Committees and the
solidarity activities which are currently being organised. I call upon
both France and Spain not repeat the mistakes of the British
government in dealing with the just demands of Irish National
Liberation Army and Irish Republican Army prisoners in the past, which
led to the death of my father and his comrades on hunger strike in
1981.

In solidarity with the Basque Hunger strikes,

Micky Óg Devine,
Derry

Letters Of Protest Should be Sent to:

Spanish Ambassador to Ireland
Mr Enrique Pastor de Gana
Embassy of Spain
17A Merlyn Park
Dublin 4

Tel 1: +353 (0)1 2691640
Tel 2: +353 (0)1 2692597
Fax: +353 (0)1 2691854

Spanish Prime Minister
Jose Luis Rodríguez Zapatero
Presidente del Gobierno
Complejo de La Moncloa
28071 Madrid
Spain

Frédéric Grasset, French Ambassador
French Embassy in Ireland
36 Ailesbury Road
Dublin 4
Tel. (01) 277 5000
Fax (01) 277 5001
[email protected]
<http://4d5.net/boardimages/ip.gif>

[coda]

Here is an Indymedia link re: the basque hungerstrike

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story...5600&time_poste (http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=69006&time_posted_upper_limit=1111035600&time_poste).

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 03:44 PM
Oh right i get ya now. Got slightly confused.

But Mickey Devine was INLA was he not ?
You&#39;re correct, Mickey Devine was an INLA POW and hunger stiker.

[American_Trotskyist]

Clenchedfist you are a disgrace to Trotskyism. I don&#39;t think the IRA is the way to National Liberation, I believe in a communist revolution, not a nationalist. But you, you are so ultra-left I&#39;m surprised you aren&#39;t waving a picture of Thatcher, because the unions weren&#39;t militant enough for you, so you want to make them more militant with Thatcher. The first thing to learn is that what the Capitalists say is very much full of lies, so don’t use them. Look at things like a MARXIST, don’t let your teachers do that. And for Christ&#39;s sakes, learn to spell.

[Redmau5]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 02:46 AM
I believe in a communist revolution, not a nationalist.
Are you implying the IRA are right-wing ? They want their homeland freed from British imperialism, it&#39;s not like they want to set up a right-wing nationalist government.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by maksym+May 4 2005, 05:17 PM--> (maksym &#064; May 4 2005, 05:17 PM)
Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 4 2005, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 01:44 PM

Clenched [email protected] 30 2005, 11:39 AM
nice, but i still think the IRA is a terrorist organisation.
So people who fight British imperialism is terrorists?
If this involves attrocities like the Omah boming yes. Look I am not justifiying the occupation of Ireland, i am jsut saying that the IRA is a terror group.
The RIRA planned and conducted the Omagh bombing, not the IRA. [/b]
Fine, Enniskillen where the PIRA murdered a load of OAP&#39;s, it must give a real sense of glory that you can fight an oppressive occupying force by killing the retired.

That’s what I love about Bobby Sands, so idealistic yet his support for an organisation and individuals that can perpetrate an act like Enniskillen renders his idealism little more than irony.

I just can’t understand people like Bobby Sands.

They want their homeland freed from British imperialism

They probably would have had it back in the 80&#39;s if they had disbanded, and let the peace process run its course. But of course peace isn&#39;t as lucrative as extortion and racketeering is it?

Perhaps I’m just being a cynic?

[coda]

No Enigma, you&#39;re just being very pro-British.

If you mean Enniskillen, 1987; Bobby Sands was not an active member of the IRA at the time. He was six years dead by then. How could he support anything since then, when he&#39;s not even alive?

If you mean Enniskillen, 2003, that is the work of CIRA. The PIRA are in cease-fire. The extra-paramilitary groups CIRA and RIRA splintered off from the PIRA because they don&#39;t agree with the PIRA cease-fire, so you can&#39;t hold PIRA accountable for that.


Whether Bobby Sands was idealistic or not --- If you read his writings, you can see he wasn&#39;t idealistic at all, not motivated out of a sense of nobility, heroism, or romanticism. He stated in his writings that he would have rather been doing anything besides his involvement in the IRA that a normal 18 year old would have been doing anywhere else at the time. The reality is he didn&#39;t go out and find trouble, the "Troubles" found him -- cast in the middle
of no choice of his own whether he wanted to be or not. He joined the IRA, like all good repubican boys did at the time. But, if you read his poem "Rhythm of Time" about Imperialism, it shows he had no indecisiveness or qualms about the rightness of his involvement in ridding British military out of Ireland, and in other writings, doing it with arms.

Remember Enigma, the British Army moved into Ireland BEFORE the IRA regrouped.
due to class-warfare, or actually because the Ulster Defense Regime was training.

The CAIN site documents a chronology of deaths of the "Troubles," and you can clearly see the intended targets were the RUC, BA, UVF/ UDF.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/chron/index.html

What is not as well known about Bobby Sands is that he joined the IRA in 1972 at the age of 18, was arrested and convicted the same year for guns found in a house where he was staying, spent those next 4 years in prison, was released in 1976, and was re-arrested 6 months later for gun possession, again, the gun was not acutally on his possession. So, in all probability he didn&#39;t participate first-hand in any IRA operations, rather he spent his entire adult life in prison up to his death.

Just an aside, I don&#39;t know why it&#39;s called the "Troubles", it just really dismisses it for what it really is.


The Rhythm Of Time

There&#39;s an inner thing in every man,
Do you know this thing my friend?
It has withstood the blows of a million years,
And will do so to the end.

It was born when time did not exist,
And it grew up out of life,
It cut down evil&#39;s strangling vines,
Like a slashing searing knife.

It lit fires when fires were not,
And burnt the mind of man,
Tempering leandened hearts to steel,
From the time that time began.

It wept by the waters of Babylon,
And when all men were a loss,
It screeched in writhing agony,
And it hung bleeding from the Cross.

It died in Rome by lion and sword,
And in defiant cruel array,
When the deathly word was &#39;Spartacus&#39;
Along with Appian Way.

It marched with Wat the Tyler&#39;s poor,
And frightened lord and king,
And it was emblazoned in their deathly stare,
As e&#39;er a living thing.

It smiled in holy innocence,
Before conquistadors of old,
So meek and tame and unaware,
Of the deathly power of gold.

It burst forth through pitiful Paris streets,
And stormed the old Bastille,
And marched upon the serpent&#39;s head,
And crushed it &#39;neath its heel.

It died in blood on Buffalo Plains,
And starved by moons of rain,
Its heart was buried in Wounded Knee,
But it will come to rise again.

It screamed aloud by Kerry lakes,
As it was knelt upon the ground,
And it died in great defiance,
As they coldly shot it down.

It is found in every light of hope,
It knows no bounds nor space
It has risen in red and black and white,
It is there in every race.

It lies in the hearts of heroes dead,
It screams in tyrants&#39; eyes,
It has reached the peak of mountains high,
It comes searing &#39;cross the skies.

It lights the dark of this prison cell,
It thunders forth its might,
It is &#39;the undauntable thought&#39;, my friend,
That thought that says &#39;I&#39;m right&#33;&#39;

[PRC-UTE]

Enigma,

Can you name a single resistance movement or any type of armed force, anywhere in the world, that never made mistakes?

Enniskillan was a terrible mistake, but had it gone right, it would&#39;ve been a great blow to the forces of occupation. That&#39;s how wars go. Republicans were aware, and stated publicly, that it hurt their cause more than the Brits could&#39;ve.

The bottom line is that the working class nationalist community was attacked by the Brit forces; they fought back and that&#39;s a legitimate struggle.



I do agree with the posters who say that the PIRA are right wing. Their way of waging the struggle never went beyond parliamentary or armed struggle. Either way they only wanted to be &#39;recognised&#39; by the Brits or the International community as legitimate.

The IRSP/INLA on the other hand attempted to use street protests, class struggle and were never focused on getting seats in parliament or wearing armani suits&#33; :lol:

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 02:46 AM
Clenchedfist you are a disgrace to Trotskyism. I don&#39;t think the IRA is the way to National Liberation, I believe in a communist revolution, not a nationalist. But you, you are so ultra-left I&#39;m surprised you aren&#39;t waving a picture of Thatcher, because the unions weren&#39;t militant enough for you, so you want to make them more militant with Thatcher. The first thing to learn is that what the Capitalists say is very much full of lies, so don’t use them. Look at things like a MARXIST, don’t let your teachers do that. And for Christ&#39;s sakes, learn to spell.
well sorry, but i think that the IRA is a terror group. I admire conolly, but not the ira. Thrankly i think your reactionary policy of treating the enemy of your enemy as your ally is disgusting.

[coda]

Well, Oglach, that is the sell-out Sein Fein, not the PIRA, they are not too happy about that. hence, the RIRA and CIRA. I think we will see them getting much larger in the years to come and maybe even PIRA abandoning the cease-fire if not joining with the others.

Nationalist and Republican take on a very different definition for northern Ireland. it&#39;s to contrast against foreign occupation and alley themselves to their cause of uniting with the Republic of Ireland. Calling themselves either "Irish National Liberation" or "Irish Republican" states that clearly.

They are hardly right wing, though. Irish Republicans have a long history of leftist labor and socialist activity including solidarity with the IRA&#39;s and vice versa. The IRA categorically to be just that-- the army of the Republican people. The Republican people&#39;s duty is to do the street protests and the other things.

Ironically, It was through reading IRA&#39;s material that I was introduced to Che as soon as I was.

[PRC-UTE]

Well, Indigo, I would not doubt for a second that there are many Leftists in the ranks of the Provisionals, or in the Reals or Contos. But the RM rejected Marxism and mass struggle -- that&#39;s why they broke off of the Officials.

Gerry Adams rejected class struggle and syndicalism, and called for the UN to intervene in the eighties.

We&#39;re the only Republican faction left who believe that class struggle is the only way to remove the British forces of occupation, the IRSP/INLA. (http://www.irsm.org)

[coda]

I was always inclined to think that the Provos broke with the Officials because of their paramilitary inactivity.

I think everybody has broken off from Gerry Adams and McGuinness by now. They have just sold the cause right down the drain.

but don&#39;t you think the IRA as well was a class struggle? I see them as two paramilitaries group of the Same struggle.

[Invader Zim]

No Enigma, you&#39;re just being very pro-British.

And your just being a naive twit, apparently with some ridiculous romanticised view of the PIRA.


If you mean Enniskillen, 1987; Bobby Sands was not an active member of the IRA at the time. He was six years dead by then. How could he support anything since then, when he&#39;s not even alive?

That is irrelevant, that is the organisation he took his own life for. Anyway, its not like th PIRA weren&#39;t commiting attrocities, during and prior to his day. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_IRA#Notable_events


Can you name a single resistance movement or any type of armed force, anywhere in the world, that never made mistakes?

That is a hell of a lot of mistakes don&#39;t you think? If the PIRA killed 1800 people, at least a 1/3 of them were civilians, the majority of them Catholics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_IRA) (another stunning piece of irony, don&#39;t you think?).

But no I can&#39;t name any... but then again, I don&#39;t need too really do I? It doesn&#39;t take much effort, or research to uncover examples of the IRA massacring civillians does it?

That&#39;s how wars go.

No, as their history can testify, Enniskillen is merely the tip of a vast iceberg, of the IRA planting bombs were civilians were bound to be killed.

However, i take issue with your whole premise. I rather suspect that murdering a leading peace activist was far greater motive than killing some token soldiers. Or maybe it was a case of literally killing two birds with one stone. A pity that a load of OAP&#39;s were just collateral damage? But these things happen in war. I suppose we can forgive and forget Nagasaki and Hiroshima, under the "shit happens" clause.


The CAIN site documents a chronology of deaths of the "Troubles," and you can clearly see the intended targets were the RUC, BA, UVF/ UDF.

So the IRA are just incompetent then. Tell that to the families of the 600 dead civilians.

Bit of a lose - lose situation all round. Not only did the IRA (admittedly not single handed) derail the process of de-unionisation, but they were a bunch of common criminals.

Either way they only wanted to be &#39;recognised&#39; by the Brits or the International community as legitimate.

Considering the things they did, a very stupid ambition, with no outcome but failure.


Ironically, It was through reading IRA&#39;s material that I was introduced to Che as soon as I was.

Now that is truly ironic, but not because of the reason you are implying. Maybe one day you will grow up… but then again, I don’t hold out much hope of that occurring.


The bottom line is that the working class nationalist community was attacked by the Brit forces; they fought back and that&#39;s a legitimate struggle.

I have no problem with them killing members of the British army, legitimate targets, but considering that 1/3 of their targets were civilians denies them any legitimacy.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 10:24 PM





No Enigma, you&#39;re just being very pro-British.

And your just being a naive twit, apparently with some ridiculous romanticised view of the PIRA.

If you&#39;re already resorting to name calling, you musn&#39;t have much to say.

And your pro-British views are well known.



If you mean Enniskillen, 1987; Bobby Sands was not an active member of the IRA at the time. He was six years dead by then. How could he support anything since then, when he&#39;s not even alive?


S/he made a very good point, and you responded with illogical jibberish:
That is irrelevant, that is the organisation he took his own life for.


the PIRA killed 1800 people, at least a 1/3 of them were civilians, the majority of them Catholics[/URL] (another stunning piece of irony, don&#39;t you think?).

No, it&#39;s not irony. Although republicans fought to defend their community, the fact that they killed fellow catholics shows that it wasn&#39;t a &#39;tribal&#39; or sectarian war as some would like to claim.


However, i take issue with your whole premise. I rather suspect that murdering a leading peace activist was far greater motive than killing some token soldiers. Or maybe it was a case of literally killing two birds with one stone. A pity that a load of OAP&#39;s were just collateral damage? But these things happen in war. I suppose we can forgive and forget Nagasaki and Hiroshima, under the "shit happens" clause.

What rubbish, Irish Republicans have not killed anything like what the imperialists have. Comparing the two exposes your complete lack of understanding.

For the last 30 odd years prior to ceasefire, south Armagh was the most dangerous place in the world for British Army soldiers. It&#39;s clear to anyone that the security forces were the primary target of Irish republicans, and that though mistakes were undoubtebly made, many of the &#39;civilians&#39; were touts, criminals, etc. For example, the IPLO hired criminals to assasinate volunteers of the INLA; when the INLA executed these hit men, it goes down on the records as &#39;civilian&#39; deaths, not unlike Iraq today.


Either way they only wanted to be &#39;recognised&#39; by the Brits or the International community as legitimate.

Considering the things they did, a very stupid ambition, with no outcome but failure.

Actually, the Provisionals are now recognised, they usually visit the White House on St Patrick&#39;s Day, what are you on about?


Bit of a lose - lose situation all round. Not only did the IRA (admittedly not single handed) derail the process of de-unionisation, but they were a bunch of common criminals.

The situation is mostly peaceful today, and I don&#39;t see the Brits leaving.

In resonse to the &#39;criminality&#39; claim, British Army intellegence has already disproven that bit of propaganda.



Ironically, It was through reading IRA&#39;s material that I was introduced to Che as soon as I was.

Now that is truly ironic, but not because of the reason you are implying. Maybe one day you will grow up… but then again, I don’t hold out much hope of that occurring.

Why is it ironic? Che was an anti-imperialist, who fought in arms, and he supported the Irish struggle for independence and socialism. Where&#39;s the irony?



The bottom line is that the working class nationalist community was attacked by the Brit forces; they fought back and that&#39;s a legitimate struggle.

I have no problem with them killing members of the British army, legitimate targets, but considering that 1/3 of their targets were civilians denies them any legitimacy.

Many of these &#39;civilians&#39; were a part of the occupation&#39;s infrastructure. It&#39;s truly sad that many innocent people lost their lives, and I&#39;m glad there&#39;s a relative peace today, but I don&#39;t believe that republicans targetted innocent folk, nor does it trouble me that Republicans are not legitimate in your eyes.

Saoirse go deo&#33;

[coda]

You are the one who needs to grow up Enigma, you have romanticed notions if you think any kind of anti-imperialist class struggle against a foriegn occupation is going to come about without a drop of bloodshed. In the real world, regrettably, that happens. Perhaps you are a little too thin-skinned to be in a movement that exists to overthrow the Capistalist-Imperalist system. I bet you have never lifted a peaceful finger in your close proximity to help end British imperialism in the north of Ireland. There are Irish sovereignty British groups to join. Funny how British citizens come out close to a million in number to protest against a US war in Iraq but do absolutely nothing for their own ongoing wars and imperialisation in their own backyard. Did it ever cross your mind if there was wider support by British citizens to put pressure on your government to relinquish northern Ireland maybe none of this shit would be happening or ever have happened.

[coda]

That&#39;s true, Oglach, republicans never set out to target innocent people.... but those facts never have stopped Imperialist alleys from repeating that propaganda and believing it themselves.


:rolleyes:

[Invader Zim]

Yes, you are so right, how come I never thought of it before&#33; The IRA are saints&#33;

Killing countless civillians is all a conspiricy by the wicked "borgwaazee", Bobby sands was a saint, and the OAP&#39;s murdered by the IRA, is a vast figment of a whitehall beurocrats imagination.

you have romanticed notions if you think any kind of anti-imperialist class struggle against a foriegn occupation is going to come about without a drop of bloodshed.
Hmm, I suggest reading lessons: -

I have no problem with them killing members of the British army, legitimate targets,

Whoops&#33;

I bet you have never lifted a peaceful finger in your close proximity to help end British imperialism in the north of Ireland.

To be honest, I don&#39;t give a shit about Northen Ireland, it has become such a nonsense issue. The fact of the matter is the republic wouldn&#39;t have you even if you were to break away, I can&#39;t see tham wanting to inherit the problems caused by lots of angry loyalist terrorists or the economic problems she would face, can you? Secondly the other side still out number you which means you don&#39;t have popular support.

republicans never set out to target innocent people

So planting bombs in highstreets was never an attempt to target civillians... :rolleyes:

Funny how British citizens come out close to a million in number to protest against a US war in Iraq but do absolutely nothing for their own ongoing wars and imperialisation in their own backyard.

Well can you blame them, when the republicans have a nasty habbit of bombing them? Word to the wise, bombing people doesn&#39;t usually make for good PR.

Did it ever cross your mind if there was wider support by British citizens to put pressure on your government to relinquish northern Ireland maybe none of this shit would be happening or ever have happened.

Did it ever cross your mind that the actions of the IRA rendered such support impossible?

Why should the British people support a movement which actively tries to kill large numbers of them? Sorry but the IRA are to blame for that as well.


If you&#39;re already resorting to name calling, you musn&#39;t have much to say.

I don&#39;t not to anybody who declares: -

republicans never set out to target innocent people (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/15/newsid_2527000/2527009.stm)

Obviously wasn&#39;t watching the news in the &#39;90&#39;s.


And your pro-British views are well known.

I have no problem with them killing members of the British army, legitimate targets

:rolleyes:

and you responded with illogical jibberish:

Of course it doesn&#39;t make any sense if you remove the next statement which places it into context. Which i note you have completely failed to address. But then again you have shown time and time again, that as soon as the crimes of the IRA and other republican forces to be highlighted that you do the equivenent of blind folding your self and singing at the top of your voice.


What rubbish, Irish Republicans have not killed anything like what the imperialists have.

And where did I calim they did?

Comparing the two exposes your complete lack of understanding.

How so my? They are both crimes, though you are perfectly willing to excuse one. But the other? No, I didn&#39;t think you would.

It&#39;s clear to anyone that the security forces were the primary target of Irish republicans,

Again, where did I claim otherwise. Note it also didn&#39;t stop them bombing civillians when the fancy took them.

and that though mistakes were undoubtebly made

Mistakes?&#33; They planted bombs in busy pubs and public places&#33; What did they think was going to happen? It was cold blooded and deliberate, any fool can see that.


Actually, the Provisionals are now recognised, they usually visit the White House on St Patrick&#39;s Day, what are you on about?

I was refering to the "Brits", that were mentioned.


The situation is mostly peaceful today, and I don&#39;t see the Brits leaving.

Give it a couple of decades of peace... the scars left by the crisis need time to fade.

Che was an anti-imperialist, who fought in arms, and he supported the Irish struggle for independence and socialism

As I am aware, Che never planted bombs soley designed to kill civillians. Che wanted to liberate the people from capitalist aggressors, not &#39;liberate&#39; them from life it&#39;s self.


Many of these &#39;civilians&#39; were a part of the occupation&#39;s infrastructure.

Ah, I see, that makes it all alright then. Those people in those pubs must have been holding up the British empire&#33; Those people who were injured, and very lucky to have survived must have been instrumental in the occupation of NI&#33;

It&#39;s truly sad that many innocent people lost their lives

Is it really? Is it so saddening that you lose any respect for the terrorist group which took their lives? I doubt it, I honestly don&#39;t think you care one way or the other. I rather think that you are like a christian conservative, so bent on a fundermentalist belief that you let reality and reason pass you by.

but I don&#39;t believe that republicans targetted innocent folk

Well planting bombs in shopping centres isn&#39;t my idea of targetting military personel.

nor does it trouble me that Republicans are not legitimate in your eyes.

It&#39;s not me you have to persuade, its the millions of British people who have the power to influence the government. Like I said, I honestly don&#39;t care what happens to Northen Ireland. If it gets independance all the better, but if the troubles start again, any chanse of that will be gone.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 02:16 AM
To be honest, I don&#39;t give a shit about Northen Ireland, it has become such a nonsense issue.

That about sums it up. Another fascinating and charming installment from Enigma.

Hey, at least he didn&#39;t threaten to stomp me this time. ;)

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by OglachMcGlinchey+May 11 2005, 04:57 AM--> (OglachMcGlinchey @ May 11 2005, 04:57 AM)
[email protected] 11 2005, 02:16 AM
To be honest, I don&#39;t give a shit about Northen Ireland, it has become such a nonsense issue.

That about sums it up. Another fascinating and charming installment from Enigma.

Hey, at least he didn&#39;t threaten to stomp me this time. ;) [/b]

That about sums it up. Another fascinating and charming installment from Enigma.

Don&#39;t you agree?

The problem is not about class liberation (and I contest that it ever was), and the situation has stagnated to mere slagging matches between politicians, and the occassional knee-capping of other thugs. Indeed the whole issue was nonsensical, because the methods of the IRA were delaying any progress towards liberation, or whatever you choose to call it. In all the years of violance, is Northen Ireland any close to independance? Marginally at best, and I would say that progress has come around sinse the relative peace.

Hey, at least he didn&#39;t threaten to stomp me this time.

Its because I love you, I want your babies.

[coda]

Yes, Enigma, Apart from the armed struggle, the republicans are minorities involved in class struggle and against foreign rule. I can&#39;t name any other Developed country that signifies class struggle more and as long than the republicans of northern Ireland. If that can&#39;t be recognized for that... then none of us in developed countries are entitled to class struggle and should just shut our fucking mouths and deal with it.

[Invader Zim]

If you think that the republican who support organisations like Sinn Fein (the largest and most representative republican political element) are going to give a shit about workers liberation, then you are in for sore disapointment. Just to quote our dear friend Oglach: -


Well, Indigo, I would not doubt for a second that there are many Leftists in the ranks of the Provisionals, or in the Reals or Contos. But the RM rejected Marxism and mass struggle -- that&#39;s why they broke off of the Officials.

Gerry Adams rejected class struggle and syndicalism, and called for the UN to intervene in the eighties.

We&#39;re the only Republican faction left who believe that class struggle is the only way to remove the British forces of occupation, the IRSP/INLA.

[coda]

worker&#39;s liberation is a luxury they can afford to put consecutively to the people&#39;s liberation. but it all runs concurrently and part of the struggle--- republican&#39;s are highest unemployed and discriminated against in employment.

[Invader Zim]

Well, I will let you and dear Oglach debate the &#39;class war&#39; agenda of the republican movment.

However, I would like to reflect on an observation I have made over years (and I&#39;m not even joking) of personally debating this subject on this forum. Why is anybody who is anti-IRA automatically pro-British?

On a more cheery note, I noticed a spray-painted message, which reminded me of this discussion earlier today. It was written in Welsh, with English text beneath, and it said to support the &#39;Sons of Glyndwr&#39;, or something along those lines.

This reminded me of question posed by Oglach: -

Can you name a single resistance movement or any type of armed force, anywhere in the world, that never made mistakes?

While the Sons of Glyndwr are more of a joke than a resistance movment, I don&#39;t believe they ever killed anybody. Does that count? ;)

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 03:36 PM
If you think that the republican who support organisations like Sinn Fein (the largest and most representative republican political element) are going to give a shit about workers liberation, then you are in for sore disapointment. Just to quote our dear friend Oglach: -


Well, Indigo, I would not doubt for a second that there are many Leftists in the ranks of the Provisionals, or in the Reals or Contos. But the RM rejected Marxism and mass struggle -- that&#39;s why they broke off of the Officials.

Gerry Adams rejected class struggle and syndicalism, and called for the UN to intervene in the eighties.

We&#39;re the only Republican faction left who believe that class struggle is the only way to remove the British forces of occupation, the IRSP/INLA.
Actually, the troll is misrepresenting what I&#39;m saying (as usual).

I didn&#39;t say there weren&#39;t examples of class struggle. Many volunteers and republican activists advocated this. The hunger strikers called for a general strike and for the people of Ireland to rise up. The war was one between the most oppressed section of the working class in the o6c and the Irish capitalists, Brits and wealthy unionists who manipulate the working class loyalists.

To clarify, once again, although there are genuine leftists in republican groups, their leadership is not. They&#39;re just concerned with getting seats in parliament now, or maintaining a war there is little support for now.

[Invader Zim]

Actually, the troll is misrepresenting what I&#39;m saying (as usual).

A troll, with nearly 10 times the number of posts as you? :huh: Indeed one of the top 10 highest posters on this site. A troll who has been posting here for over a year and a half more than you. How novel&#33; So, yes I clearly am the troll here... <_<

Many volunteers and republican activists advocated this.

Perhaps, but the organisation as a whole certainly does not. I cannot see Gerry Adams wanting to liberate the workers.

[Redmau5]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 01:15 PM
A troll, with nearly 10 times the number of posts as you? :huh: Indeed one of the top 10 highest posters on this site. A troll who has been posting here for over a year and a half more than you. How novel&#33; So, yes I clearly am the troll here... <_<

And what ? Because you&#39;ve made more posts you are smarter or something ? Just because you discovered the site before him and you&#39;ve made more posts doesn&#39;t mean you have some sort of authority. So don&#39;t try and use your posts total to make a point.

[bunk]

It means that he&#39;s not a troll. He would not be tolerated for 3 years if he was a troll nor would he be in the commie club

[bolshevik butcher]

yeh would be a bit strange, or maybe he&#39;s just a really really good troll ;) .

[El_Revolucionario]

I agree with Clenched Fist, the IRA bombed lots of places and killed innocent people. And that doesn&#39;t make me pro-british or whatever, I&#39;m of Irish descent and I support Ireland but not the bombing of innocent people like IRA has done.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Makaveli_05+May 12 2005, 05:01 PM--> (Makaveli_05 &#064; May 12 2005, 05:01 PM)
[email protected] 12 2005, 01:15 PM
A troll, with nearly 10 times the number of posts as you? :huh: Indeed one of the top 10 highest posters on this site. A troll who has been posting here for over a year and a half more than you. How novel&#33; So, yes I clearly am the troll here... <_<

And what ? Because you&#39;ve made more posts you are smarter or something ? Just because you discovered the site before him and you&#39;ve made more posts doesn&#39;t mean you have some sort of authority. So don&#39;t try and use your posts total to make a point. [/b]

And what ? Because you&#39;ve made more posts you are smarter or something ?

No, I never said anything like that...

Read again, and well done, you managed to totally miss the point. But don&#39;y worry about it, we all make mistakes, even me.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 07:25 PM
I agree with Clenched Fist, the IRA bombed lots of places and killed innocent people. And that doesn&#39;t make me pro-british or whatever, I&#39;m of Irish descent and I support Ireland but not the bombing of innocent people like IRA has done.
i suppose your an insult to trotoskyism as well? I see AT hasn&#39;t replied yet.

[Redmau5]

i suppose your an insult to trotoskyism as well?

What was that supposed to mean ?

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 06:38 PM

i suppose your an insult to trotoskyism as well?

What was that supposed to mean ?
it was a reference to AT&#39;s comment when he said my stance on the IRA was an insult to trotoskyism.