Human Nature and Individuality

[novemba]

A couple questions:

What proof do we have that Communism will actually work? For me it always boils down to this Human Nature vs. Societies Impressions on an individual arguement and I'm dissatified with this half-assed answer I keep getting. What would keep people contributing to society? What evidence do we have that individuality would remain? And if it did, would it be considered a danger for the society? What if I didn't want to do what I was told, would I be was cast out? Wouldn't that make me inequal, in a society where everyone is equal? What if I was born without a left arm, or with a giant birthmark on my head, wouldn't that make me different from everyone else? Is being different ok in a communist society? What about factors that society could not control? What if they did control it? Wouldn't that take away my right to control myself? Would I have a right to control myself? I apologize if the statements seem anti-marxist but in order to establish what I believe in I need to establish what I dont believe in, and these questions have been the hardest to answer.

[NovelGentry]

What proof do we have that Communism will actually work? For me it always boils down to this Human Nature vs. Societies Impressions on an individual arguement and I'm dissatified with this half-assed answer I keep getting. What would keep people contributing to society? What evidence do we have that individuality would remain? And if it did, would it be considered a danger for the society? What if I didn't want to do what I was told, would I be was cast out? Wouldn't that make me inequal, in a society where everyone is equal? What if I was born without a left arm, or with a giant birthmark on my head, wouldn't that make me different from everyone else? Is being different ok in a communist society? What about factors that society could not control? What if they did control it? Wouldn't that take away my right to control myself? Would I have a right to control myself? I apologize if the statements seem anti-marxist but in order to establish what I believe in I need to establish what I dont believe in, and these questions have been the hardest to answer.

It's not anti-marxist to ask question... I'm just not sure what makes you ask such questions.

What proof did the bourgeoisie have that capitalism would "work" during feudal times? What proof was there that feudalism would "work" as a development from ancient society? I've heard this "Communism can't work, capitalism does work" stuff before... the fact remains, capitalism works for some, not for others... just like feudalism worked for some and not for others. If we fail in creating a classless society, we do not have the ability to label such communism, and thus if it doesn't "work" -- for whatever reason, and we fall back into a class society, then it's just that not-working. I personally believe it will work.

If you believe "human nature" has much of anything to do with material necessity then you should probably think a bit harder before asking questions. What makes communism incompatible with "human nature?" How do you know this is human nature?

Necessity would keep people contributing to society. As a conscious and hopefully intelligent human being, it would be foolish for you to think you could live a respectable life with the absense of other people in society. You cannot, on your own, create and sustain all which society has brought up -- and thus, if you seek to maintain any kind of technological advancement, you will seek to uphold the social "agreements" which make it possible. What we seek to do is not abolish this relationship, but simply change the agreement so that you give and get as equally as can be.

What evidence do we have that individuality would be wiped out? With the means of production being open and people consistently growing towards a system that does not consume them with work, I would imagine individuality would flourish in comparison to capitalism.

Individuality is never a danger to society, unless your individuality is one which deems you should oppress another. The individual rights and decisions of capitalists need not and should not be respected as their entire ideology is founded on oppression.

No one tells you what to do... if someone believes they have a right to tell you what to do, this would be considered oppression and would be reacted to with much the same contempt that capitalism should be reacted to.

I'd say being born without a left arm or a gian birthmark on your head would make you pretty different, yeah... so what's your point?

Why wouldn't being different be OK?

The remainder of your questions just trail off into subsets of most of the other questions... so I'll leave it at that for now.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by necro_oner
What proof do we have that Communism will actually work?

The evidence is fragmentary...we certainly don't have definitive "proof".

On the other hand, what we have now "doesn't work" for about 5/6ths of the world's population and "works" very poorly for most of the remainder.

Think about it. Is spending most or all of your life busting your ass to make some rich bastards even richer your idea of a human and civilized existence?


For me it always boils down to this Human Nature vs. Societies Impressions on an individual argument and I'm dissatisfied with this half-assed answer I keep getting.

I don't know who you've been talking to, so I can't comment on the quality of "half-assed" answers.

But the scientific knowledge of "human nature" is even more fragmentary and uncertain than the "proof that communism will work".

All we really know, first-hand, is how people behave in class societies under the domination of wealthy and powerful elites.

How they would behave in classless societies without such elites is simply unknown at this time.

Our present-day elite (capitalists) hire many professors to "inform" us that elites are "inevitable" and "part of human nature"...the self-interest of such "teachings" is, well, naked.


Is being different ok in a communist society?

All depends. How would you like to "be different"?

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[novemba]

Thanks, that helps out a little. I think that you both are right in saying that no one really knows whether or not it would work, so we might as well try since what we have is not working now. A lot of this boils down to philosphical questions, and a lot don't. Something else that I would like to be clarified is what would everyday life be like in a commune? I just can't grasp communism in action instead of in theory...do you know anything that could help?

[coda]

That's a damn good answer, Novel Gentry. The best I've heard yet of why someone should want to contribute to society.! Very nice!

[NovelGentry]

That's a damn good answer, Novel Gentry. The best I've heard yet of why someone should want to contribute to society.! Very nice!

It's only a bleeding heart materialist who can point out the cold hard truth to all those who would rather hear "Because we want to be nice to one another."

It's interesting, cause you look at the classic libertarian capitalist perspective of this, and it's very much the same. The problem is, the only way people like Smith ever saw this agreement to be conceivable is if it was a formal trade of labor. He credits humans with having this fundamental nature above all other animals, pointing out that two greyhounds chasing a hare only appear to work in concert because of their same self-centered demand. Strangely, he goes on to recognize that humans can make this agreement, that is, to work together to catch the hare, but he cannot conceive we are intelligent enough to realize we both benefit, and thus benefit equally. Instead he finds our reasons only in selfishness and vanity... seems weird one can make such a necessary realization but then cut humanity short of the total answer which is begging to put an end to the question itself.