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Jersey Devil
24th April 2005, 21:15
This kind of "activism" in the Arizona-Mexico border began in 2000 with the Neighborhood Watch Ranch. They put out ads in several newspapers thoughout the U.S asking people to "Have some fun in the sun". Indeed, some members were even tied with the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. Also, the current anti-immigration project is being supported by white supremacists of the National Alliance which have sent fliers asking people to come "protect the border" as did the NRW in 2000.

With that said however, not all people involved in this new '05 movement are "racists" or neo-"nationalist socialists". I was recently reading an article about this in Christian Science Monitor with a woman living in the area saying that she had several immigrants running though her ranch. She was in genuine fear that a confrontation might occur some day which would be harmful to both parties. Can I sympathize with this fear, yes I believe I could.

Nevertheless, I still regard these people as vigilantes. One of the problems is that many southern politicians build their political careers on "it's not my fault, it's Juan's fault" and this in turn encourages anti-immigrant sentiment that is simply irrational. One of the biggest arguments is that "illegals" hurt state agencies because "they" take healthcare and other benifits that they don't pay into. While this is true, one has to admit that there are also other social programs which "illegals" pay into, from which American citizens benifit and they never see a penny of.

For instance, social security and medicare, both of which "illegals" pay into but never see benifit from (however I will focus on social security in the following text). In order to work "illegals" get social security cards with fake social security card numbers. They pay payroll taxes that come off of their check, and goes to the federal government. However, the government now has fake numbers and doesn't know who deserves the benifits from social security, thus this revenue is kept by the federal government. Every year "illegals" pay 7 billion dollars into social security without seeing a penny of it, yet ironically the anti-immigration advocates complain about "illegals" taking advantage of social programs. Utterly ludicrous.

The Original:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html...DAD0894DD404482 (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F7091FFC345B0C768CDDAD0894DD4044 82)

Full Article:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/printer_040505G.shtml


Starting in the late 1980's, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect - sometimes simply fictitious - Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the "earnings suspense file" in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they belonged to.

The file has been mushrooming ever since: $189 billion worth of wages ended up recorded in the suspense file over the 1990's, two and a half times the amount of the 1980's.

In the current decade, the file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes.

JazzRemington
24th April 2005, 21:20
Well, I think it's nice that people are doing something about what they percieve as a problem, but I don't support it's goals in anyway, shape, or form.

I'm convinced that these people can only get away with this because the extreme Rightists are in power.

Jersey Devil
24th April 2005, 21:25
Irrelevant as Bush went against the Republicans and denounced these people as vigilantes. As a matter of fact, David Frum wrote and article in National Review about how this issue may divide the Republican party.

Encrypted Soldier
24th April 2005, 21:36
Why are all the Militas in America extreme right-wing? Aren't there any Communist Militias in the states that could go down there and wreak some havoc on the "Minuteman Project?"

Aren't there any Mexicans, Tejanos, or Californios that would band up together and try to fight these duds?

I want to see the streets turn red comrades!

Jersey Devil
24th April 2005, 21:44
If you have nothing productive to add to the thread then please leave. I'm tired of starting a thread and then having groups of teenagers come and saying how "cool it would be to see people die".

Encrypted Soldier
24th April 2005, 21:59
Originally posted by Jersey [email protected] 24 2005, 08:44 PM
If you have nothing productive to add to the thread then please leave. I'm tired of starting a thread and then having groups of teenagers come and saying how "cool it would be to see people die".
Well I'm tired of a bunch of "America First," racists, neo-nazis, et cetera want to deny the rights of immigrants to the states and to deny them the right to even immigrate to the U.$. My mother was an "illegal" immigrant for three years, and you couldn't believe the troubles she went through. Think of all the other "illegal" immigrants in this nation, struggling to make a living. "True" Americans are angry because the "illegal" immigrants steal their jobs. Well, thats called capitalism, and thats what America uses, so grow up. Immigrants are a greater asset to this country than those stupid country hicks and rednecks.

Do I need to quote a Communist thinker/leader to show that a revolutionary force is needed to put down these reactionaries?

P.S. I never said that it would be cool to see people die. I've seen people die, and it sickens me, but there are some things that must be done.

JazzRemington
24th April 2005, 23:02
Originally posted by Jersey [email protected] 24 2005, 02:25 PM
Irrelevant as Bush went against the Republicans and denounced these people as vigilantes. As a matter of fact, David Frum wrote and article in National Review about how this issue may divide the Republican party.
I don't think so. Those in power are by a majority of the right. I mean, if people from the left were in power, would you see these militias poping up?

I knew Bush denounced them as a vigilante group, but I'm not sure how the rest of the Republicans feel.

Jersey Devil
24th April 2005, 23:06
Originally posted by JazzRemington+Apr 24 2005, 10:02 PM--> (JazzRemington @ Apr 24 2005, 10:02 PM)
Jersey [email protected] 24 2005, 02:25 PM
Irrelevant as Bush went against the Republicans and denounced these people as vigilantes. As a matter of fact, David Frum wrote and article in National Review about how this issue may divide the Republican party.
I mean, if people from the left were in power, would you see these militias poping up? [/b]
Yes you would, as they are not breaking the law.

Encrypted Soldier
25th April 2005, 01:21
All reactionaries are paper tigers. In appearence, the reactionaries are terrifying, but in reality they are not so powerful. From a long term point of view it is the people that are really powerful.
- Mao Tsetung

I think that quote explains what these people are trying to stage. The chances of them accomplishing anything are minimal at best. They're trying to appear in force so people could think that they actually are powerful.

But my verdict remains the same. I want to see the streets turn red with these people's blood... This world would be much better without them.

bed_of_nails
25th April 2005, 01:53
This border problem will not escalate into a war, or probably even violence. The use of violence will result in not only these poorly trained "Minutemen", but the National Guard, Army Reserves, etc. Then, the immigrants would find it much harder to get across the border. There are certain situations where violence is counterproductive.

Encrypted Soldier
25th April 2005, 01:58
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 12:53 AM
This border problem will not escalate into a war, or probably even violence. The use of violence will result in not only these poorly trained "Minutemen", but the National Guard, Army Reserves, etc. Then, the immigrants would find it much harder to get across the border. There are certain situations where violence is counterproductive.
Hmmm... You have a point. The only way to change this would be violence on a mass scale, which at the present moment, is immpossible.

Alas, we must wait.

ahhh_money_is_comfort
25th April 2005, 06:01
My $.02 on this subject.

For all you people reading information from newspapers, take my view on this, as a frist hand account, but up until November I LIVED THERE. I lived there on the border.

Border areas historically have been a melting pot, both Mexican and US have traveled back and forth across the border for generations. The back and forth immigration has been like a tide until the last couple of years, historically until recently the immigration is now a TSUNAMI. There is a limit this country will handle. I am for the maixum amount of immigration possible then NO MORE THAN THAT.

Until the last couple of years ranchers would assist border crossers with rations and water. Most were decent hard working folks and most still are, now there are crossers who are down right DANGEROUS. Crossers who don't fear rammifications of doing evil to a rancher out in the middle of no where. Ranchers went from the state of mind of leaving sandwiches on the porch to instead making sure they are locked and loaded with assault weapons when going out to the truck in the morning. It is that dangerous. The quaint practice of leaving food and water on your door has been replaced by being ready for a machine gun battle.

It is already a war. Machine gun battles have been fought between drug runners and ranchers. The minute men are NOT amatuers. There are two classes of militia. One retired police, special ops military, and ex-military. These people spent most of thier adult lives in armed conflicts around the world. They are the ones actively patroling the border and looking for 'trouble'. Then there are the 'support' militia. These are the folks who always get photographed by the media. Yes they are amatuers, but they don't look for conflict, thier job is to seek, see, report, and then RUN. Yes they are armed, it would be stupid not to be armed, even if your plan is to run at the frist sign of trouble.

If there is anyone employing violence, it is the drug runners and the few bad apples that are crossing the border. Take a few bad apples and mix that with a TSUNAMI and you got LOTS of bad apples. That is what the ranchers are dealing with on a daily basis. Hence that is why instead of leaving sandwhiches on the door step, they are taking assaualt weapons when they go outside to feed the cat.

My $.02.

bed_of_nails
25th April 2005, 07:31
Interesting viewpoint on it. Just another reason I dont do drugs...