War in the middle east - your opinions on......

[uth1984]

I'm curious on everyone's view on the current situation between the Israeli/Palestian sides. What is a socialist answer to the problem?


My two cents is that while the protection of the Jewish homeland is essential, there is little that justifies the slaugther and atrocities that happen in Jenin

[vox]

Neither side is fighting for the working class. Both sides are criminally guilty of indiscriminate slaughter. Some Leftists wish to champion Palestine, but this ignores the class component.

My position is that a Leftist can not support either side.

vox

[Cassius Clay]

Vox, well said. Although it is worth pointing out that the Palestinians are fighting fascist oppression, do you have any information on the PLPF (sorry probably the wrong spelling) who are apparently a Marxist orginisation. Ofcourse they are not as big and powerful as the likes of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and PLO.

[vox]

I think you mean the PFLP or the PFLP-GC. I know little about them, other than that they are listed as terrorist organizations by the State Department (http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/01100513.htm).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Israeli actions by any means. The situation in the Middle East, as far as I can see, only increases human suffering without making any progress on either side. I think as long as nationalist and racial prejudices are the dominant factors, peace will not be found. Meanwhile, workers suffer.

vox

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from vox on 11:40 am on Aug. 29, 2002
Neither side is fighting for the working class. Both sides are criminally guilty of indiscriminate slaughter.

Precisely. Both sides are fighting for a nationalist, fanatical cause based on hatred and predujice.

[Reuben]

I would descrie myself as a supporter opf the Palestinian people.
This is not because I am a general supporter of any form of state jewish or palestinian, but because I see the formation of a Palestinian and the demands of the palestinians as a means to an ends. For example, a means of politicallly enfranchising the palestinian people who (the ones under occupation) are living effectively under the dictatorship of the Israeli people, a means of betterring the terrible conditions in which Palestinians are currently living within refugee camps and a means of bringing equality between the palestinians and the Zionist settlers who are allowed to live off disproportionately huge quantities of land.

In other words my supporrt for the palestinian people is not motivated by support for nationalism but because i see it as the only viable means, in the current situation, of meeting the very basic needs and wants of the palestinians.

VOX argued that ther is no class component to either struggle. IMO the prerequisite to a unified class struggle in any part of the world is the resolution of the national question. It is almost impossible to talk about class unity while the Israeli working class are so significantly priveleged at the expense of the Palestinians.

[Conghaileach]

I support the PFLP, who believe in a single secular socialist state for Jews, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Atheists... yada yada yada.

[Blasphemy]

the conditions in which the palestinians are living under israeli occupations are horrific. but if israeli withdraws immediately, and arafat will take over, things will be worse. just lately, the plo received 17 million dollars from the eu. did that money go to the people? to build schools and youth centers? no... some went straight to arafat's bank account, some to his ministers and their children who go to presitigous universities in europe and the united states. how come all the palestinian ministers are doctors and professors? because all the money go to their education in expensive places, instead of to the people.

[Conghaileach]

Robert Fisk once called Arafat a despot, and I agree with him. But if anything does happen to him, he will gain martyr status among the Palestinians.

[Blasphemy]

that's why israel must not intervene and appoint a new leader. the palestinian people themselves must choose a new leader.

[Pinko]

You lot suprise me. I thought this place would be full of Palestinian support. After all, was it not Che who said "Where a government has come to power through some form of popular vote, fraudulent or not, and maintains at least an appearance of constitutional legality, the guerrilla outbreak cannot be promoted, since the possibilities of peaceful struggle have not yet been exhausted."?
The vast majority of Palestinians are not allowed to vote.
Ariel Sharon (now in charge) is the man held "personally responsible" by Israel's own commissioner's inquiry for the 1982 Sabra and Chatila massacre of 1,700 Palestinians

Ultimately, the Palestinians are living in what is ammounting to apartheid conditions, they are a repressed people. Israel, fueled by US backing is being beigerant in the extreme, even flouting UN resolutions, knowing full weel that the US will veto any action to resolve the issue (another reason to withdraw the veto from every permanent council member state).
The extremist organisations are labelled as terrorists, not freedom fighters. Yet what else do they do except fight for the freedom of their people. Hamas provide ecucation, welfare and healthcare to the palestinian people, as do other such organisations.
Israel is in an untennable situation if the US were to withdraw support. It would have to bargain for peace instead of dropping 1000lb bombs onto blocks of flats.
Every time Israel sets a target for peace talks (eg: one week without violence) it stirs up shit if the Palestinians look like they might achieve their demands. Israel is ruled by the right-wing Zionist movement and is built by the labour of the underpayed Palestinian.

I once read a tale, I will para-phrase it for you here.

An old Israeli was walking down a street in jerusalem with his grandson. He said to his younger relative "You see these buildings? You see this street? Well, I built these when Israel was first founded." and the child looked up in horror at his grandfather and exclaimed "Grandfather! Were you an Arab when you were younger?".


There will be not peace for the fascists of Israel until they are willing to give a little at the negotiating table.
Before I am pilloried as an anti-Semitic, I have nothing against Jews, I do however take issue with the actions of the rogue state of Israel, there is a big difference.

Just out of interest, I notice that anti-Semites are not welcome here. This is one of the most misused terms in the history of man.

Semite: Biblical (genesis 10); A member of any of the peoples descended from Shem. Scientific; A member of a peoples speaking a semitic language (Assyrian, Aramaic, Hebrew, Phoenician, Arabic, Ethiopic and any other language of this Afro-Asiatic sub category).

It makes me angry to see Arabs labeled as anti-semitic

(Edited by Pinko at 1:57 am on Aug. 30, 2002)


(Edited by Pinko at 2:05 am on Aug. 30, 2002)

[Conghaileach]

from Pinko:
I once read a tale, I will para-phrase it for you here.

An old Israeli was walking down a street in jerusalem with his grandson. He said to his younger relative "You see these buildings? You see this street? Well, I built these when Israel was first founded." and the child looked up in horror at his grandfather and exclaimed "Grandfather! Were you an Arab when you were younger?".

That's a really good story. Sums up the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians upon Israel's creation very well.


It makes me angry to see Arabs labeled as anti-semitic

Pretty much anyone who opposes Israel is considered an anti-semite. I've been called one a few times myself.

[Blasphemy]

pinko, how can you even call an organization like hamas freedom fighters? hamas has executed dozens of terrorist attacks on israeli civilians, killing people premiscuesly, be it men, women or children, civilians or soldiers. they don't care who they kill, they only care to kill any jew living in israel.

they take care of education? yeah, right. all the money they get goes to buying new guns and explosives. they don't have any money left to take care of education, as if they really care about it.

[Pinko]

[Blasphemy]
"pinko, how can you even call an organization like hamas freedom fighters? hamas has executed dozens of terrorist attacks on israeli civilians, killing people premiscuesly, be it men, women or children, civilians or soldiers. they don't care who they kill, they only care to kill any jew living in israel."

They fight for the freedom of the Palestinian people. Is that not the definition of a freedom fighter? Yes, they are resorting to terrorist acts by wantonly killing men, women and children without discrimination. But Israel do the same, they don't care who may be around when they use high explosive assasination methods. Yet Israel is legitimately protecting its populous, even though the settlers that are killed are settling in contravention of a UN declaration. Israel is just as bad as the extremist grops, yet they are portrayed in the western media as the victims in this war.
Don't get me wrong, I don't condone the killing of innocents in armed uprising. But the Israeli government and Hamas have so many traits in common, yet one is denounced as a terrorist organisation and the other has membership of the UN.
It is hypocracy.

Every male member of the Isreali citizenery, over the age of 18 (or 16) is a member of the armed forces and therefore a military target. They never leave the army after national service, they enter the reserves.
I have been told that this includes women, but I have not been able to verify this, so I will not throw any conviction behind it.

Hamas recently announced that it was willing to stop the suicide bombings if the peace process were to start up again. Within hours, the Israeli military dropped a 1000 pound bomb on the leader of said organisation. 15 innocent civilians were killed, including 8 children.
Would you not want revenge if that were your family?

Marwan Barghouti was apprehended in Ramallah, in what is known as 'Area A,' which according to the Oslo Accords - signed by Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) in 1993 - falls under Palestinian legal jurisdiction; it is therefore a blatant breach of those Accords.
Would you not fight for the freedoms of your people when they are being abused so?

Ariel Sharon (now in charge) is the man held "personally responsible" by Israel's own commissioner's inquiry for the 1982 Sabra and Chatila massacre of 1,700 Palestinians. No action was taken.
Would you stand for this?

So, yes. I call them freedom fighters. Their methods are questionable as they resort to acts of terror, but they fight for the freedom of their people.

"they take care of education? yeah, right. all the money they get goes to buying new guns and explosives. they don't have any money left to take care of education, as if they really care about it.
That is where you are wrong. Many schools are sponsored by Hamas. They provide for the masses in a way that the PLO doesn't or cannot and that Israel will not. Yes they spend alot of money on guns, but much of their funds goes into welfare.

Here is a link to a FAQ about Hamas. Inspect the rest of the website for validity, I think you will find is unbiased.
http://www.terrorismanswers.com/groups/ham...amas_print.html (http://www.terrorismanswers.com/groups/hamas_print.html)

A paraphrased quote from this page (to avoid copyright issues):
"Is Hamas just a terrorist group?
No. In addition to its military wing, the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigade, Hamas also devotes much of its estimated $70-million annual budget to a rather extensive social services network. This includes schools, orphanages, mosques, health care clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. “Approximately 90 percent of its work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities,” writes Reuven Paz an Israeli scholar. As the Palestinian Authority often fails to provide such services, Hamas’ efforts in this area explain much of its popularity with the Palestinian people.


(Edited by Pinko at 8:41 pm on Aug. 30, 2002)

[Blasphemy]

"can people, living under the burden of an oppressive occupaying government, resort to despising, sinful methods to free themselves? do the ungodly, disgusting acts carried out by the oppressors justify such horrific ways such as killing young babies?"

this isn't an exact quote, but you get the idea. it was written by a world-wide known israeli author called Amos Oz. Oz is a very extreme leftist, who acts constantly against the israeli occupation in the palestinian territories. i don't think i need to add more to that, since Oz articulated it amazingly.

now, about the peace process. during the years of 1993-1995, hamas and other terrorist groups carried out a wave of attacks on israeli civilians. if you do not know, during these years, yitzhak rabin was serving as prime minister. he lead the oslo peace accords, which included a gradual israeli withdrawal from the territories. now, if there was a true peace process going on, why would hamas attack civilians? i don't think they did it to contribute to the peace process, because it obviously did no good to it. it was to damage the peace process, because hamas does want to see two states existing one by another, but one, single, palestinian state, with no jews in sight. if you disagree, please tell me why they would carry out attacks while a peace process was going on.

[Reuben]

As I showed before I agree very much what Pinko said.

I do however have no support for Hamas. In relation to the Palestinians they are a fundamentalist group not secular like the PLO. Furthermore I understand but do not support suicide bombs. ALthough Primary responsibilityy has to be taken by those forces which have taken from the Palestinians any means of changing their awful situation through Political methods (IE the Israeli government) this does not absolve people absolutely from the actions they choose to take against people who may well be activists in Gush Shalom, a very good Israeli organisation firghting for a just peace.
I have very little sympathy for an adult settler killed, given that they have chosen, in great comfort, to live a lifestyle which is extremely detrimental to the needs of of an already extremely deprived people. They choose to live off Vast and disproportionate amounts of land in an already extremely over corowded place.

[deimos]

i agree with reuben.but i understand th palestinians who kill the settlers.If i was living in ramalla,i'd mybe do the same.

[Iyana]

I'm not a muslim nor a jew, but when it comes to human rights I will stand up. and israel needs to back up !

[hawarameen]

can someone tell me what gave anyone the right to take away land that was originally arab and give it to israelis based on a fictional piece of work called the bible.

Paletinians have as much if not more right to live in peace in their homeland without anyone else giving away traditionally arab teritories.

[deimos]

they justify it by 2000 years of absentiy and a so called "democratisation" and by muredering "terrorists" which could also attack the western world............

[carlmarx]

i fear that there is no peacful end to this situation, i also feel that we cannot support either claim to land as any descion will result in more terror and more death

[Reuben]

Not necessarily, IMO the prerequisite to a lasting peaceis Justice. Peace cannot come about while 5000,000 palestinians remai expelled from palestine because there ethhnicity, it cannot come about while the needs and wants of Palestinians are entirely subjugated to the interests of zionist settlers living off vast and dissproportionate amunts of Land.


YET if the gvery generous PLO proposal that recognizes Israel in 78 pper cent of historic palestine, while demanding the right of return and an end to settler priveleges is accepted then peace does have a chance and maybe the terror will end

[carlmarx]

i do agree that more land should be returned to palestine but do you not think it inevitble that whatever the outcome there will be more violence.

[El Che]

I largely agree with ruben, who`s contributions, particularly on this subject, are really top notch.

However, a notion I like to keep present is that any settlement creating two states is still an injustice against the palestinians. But I do think its the only way to achive peace. Not justice, but peace.

[uth1984]

There can be nno peace in Israel or Palestine, for the simple reason that both sides have right-wing imperlist scumfucks on either side. Neither are fully expressing the needs of the workers. There is no where in the world more in need of a socialist revolution than the Middle east.

To reply to early comments on anti-semitism, an Anti-Semite is any one who has anti-jewish feeling. It is one of those little ironies that the most anti-semitic people are Arabs, who are, scientificly, Semitic themselves. I was over in Dubai, and all the headlines on the Newspapers (the english-language ones) are basicly varients on "THOSE DIRTY LITTLE JEWS UP TO THIER OLD TRICKS AGIN"
The Arab countries are the few places in the world where the protocalls of the Elders of Zion are still believed.
However, one should never confuse Anti-Semitism with not supporting Israel's actions. I'm from Jewish desent, and many of my family are horrified at what is happening. For example, Chief Rabbi Sacks has criticised Israel's action -- and he is no Anti-Semite.

[Reuben]

good post uth1984.

The Chief Rabbi's article was good in some respects, though i found it a bit Judeo-centric, ie the main point of it was about it being contradictory to judaism and it making it difficult for jews to sleep at night. As someone rightly pointed out, we should be concerned really with how easy it is to sleep at night as a palsestinian knowing that your house may be demolished. Furthermore, i find the fact that Israels actions are contrary to judaism isd insignificant to the humanitarian morl onbjection we should have to 35 years of occupation.

[Pinko]

Assyrian, Aramaic, Hebrew, Phoenician, Arabic, Ethiopic and any other language of this Afro-Asiatic sub category, are all semetic languages.

Biblically as well, the semites are decendants of Shem. I am under the understanding that each of Shem's children founded a tribe, out of each tribe sprouted each of the religions of the book. My biblical knowlege is bad at best, any corrections would be greatfully received.
To be anti-semetic would be to hate the Arabs as much as the Jews, not to mention a whole host of other enthnic groups.

Anti-Judaic or Anti-Hebraic would be more accurate terms to use when discribing anti-Jewish sentiment.