Nationalism

[Abstrakt]

I'm not sure about Marxism, or communism with this question, but, isn't communism Nationalistic? I was also thinking, that there is no state, or anything like that. So, Nationalism would be burned out I guess. Also, Since we are all leftist, I'd say a slim percentage of us our Nationalistic. I mean, isn't that oxymoronic for the left? I hope atleast some of this made sense. Anyone's thoughts?

[AnFaRes]

nationalism is a fucking problem. to get it out of the peoples mind will take a long time, but i think a real communism or marxism cannot and must not go hand in hand with nationalism. thats contradictionary

[bolshevik butcher]

'the workers have no homeland' karl marx.

[More Fire for the People]

Bourgeois nationalism and proletarian internationalism are two implacably opposed slogans, corresponding to two great class camps throughout the entire capitalist world and expressing two policies (rather, two world outlooks) on the national question.”

- V.I. Lenin


"Since the situation of the workers of all countries is the same, their interests the same, and their enemies the same, they must also fight together and confront the fraternity of the bourgeoisie of all nations with a fraternity of the workers of all nations."

- Marx/Engels

I hope these quotes answer your questions.

[BlastedEmpire]

As always theory differs "a bit" from reality. All communist experiences developed into nationalism. A diferent form of nationalism, perhaps, but still nationalism.

[Pawn Power]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 07:13 PM
As always theory differs "a bit" from reality. All communist experiences developed into nationalism. A diferent form of nationalism, perhaps, but still nationalism.
Communist unite under as the woring, nationalism is unting under a random set of boarders and laws. It is not the same thing. It is not a form of nationalism it is a form of unity.

[BlastedEmpire]

perhaps, but it's a state/nation based form of unity. it's only natural anyway. if a country begins a revolutionary struggle to free itself from an exploitive colonial or neocolonial presence, it's only natural that they will appeal to their own national values, history and culture to oppose them to the invading force's values history and culture..

[Totalitarian Militant]

I am very nationalistic.


I think its stupid to live in a country you arent proud of.
What kind of country is it if the people dont like it?

I believe communism, or at leasy the communism we have seen, is ultra nationalistic.
There is so much rock hard propaganda its unbelievable.

Communism has bad nationalism.

[Black Dagger]

I believe communism, or at leasy the communism we have seen, is ultra nationalistic.
There is so much rock hard propaganda its unbelievable.

You realise that communism is an anti-nationalist ideology right? I think you'd be better off checking out *************** or something, so you can hang out with some 'national socialists' ;)

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 06:13 PM
As always theory differs "a bit" from reality. All communist experiences developed into nationalism. A diferent form of nationalism, perhaps, but still nationalism.
How so? There is no nation in a communist society; communism is international. Communism cannot exist in the vacuum of capitalist structures or the control of any ruling body.

Communists are anti-nationalist as others have already said and as Marx/Engels put it in the communist manifesto:


The Communists do not form a separate party opposed to the other working-class parties.
They have no interests separate and apart from those of the proletariat as a whole.
"They do not set up any sectarian principles of their own, by which to shape and mold the proletarian movement.
"The Communists are distinguished from the other working-class parties by this only:
(1) In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality.
(2) In the various stages of development which the struggle of the working class against the bourgeoisie has to pass through, they always and everywhere represent the interests of the movement as a whole.

Communism is my ultimate political goal as a communist, so that does not include the promotion of any nation. Communists do not fall into such divisive traps and readily attack any attempts to divide and conquer the proletariat.


perhaps, but it's a state/nation based form of unity.

Communism is a stateless and classless society.


it's only natural anyway. if a country begins a revolutionary struggle to free itself from an exploitive colonial or neocolonial presence, it's only natural that they will appeal to their own national values, history and culture to oppose them to the invading force's values history and culture..

You have to ask yourself why people are so "naturally" inclined to "national values."
Do you believe people are born or biologically develop "national values?" People are segregated and socialized to act within their "national values," so the fact that they are predisposed to do so only proves that the methods used to condition them worked.
The understanding that if a communistic revolution took place in the US, nationalism would be opposed in the proceedings should exemplify this well.

As a side note; I like your signature, Rise Against is a great band (I have the Revolutions Per Minute album). I had some of their lyrics in my sig. at one point, such as:


a need for revolution's rising, it comes to the surface, gasping for air,
we're not putting up with this planet one more day much less one more year

Welcome to the Revleft board BlastedEmpire :hammer:

[BlastedEmpire]

I didn't use the word "naturally" as in the literal meaning, what I mean is that it's a common reaction. I'm not talking about the theory here, I'm talking about the historical facts. That is to say, about the past. I believe the new left of today aims more at a global revolution than in the past, because in the past communism appeared as a form of opposition to colonial/neocolonial forces. It's not the case today. Because of globalization we now feel that in order for things to change the revolution has to be global too...

.... and Rise Against are great indeed.. ;)

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 06:13 AM
I didn't use the word "naturally" as in the literal meaning, what I mean is that it's a common reaction.
Yes, I was trying to cover that too and that was really my point, people are programmed to react so.


I'm not talking about the theory here, I'm talking about the historical facts. That is to say, about the past.

How so? The fact is that so far we haven't been able to keep a socialist society together for a significant period of time and any nationalism is counterproductive to our cause (perhaps not in short but in all eventuality). I would conceder nationalism to be something like a PCP, you pumped up and going strong but you are also getting confused as hell.


I believe the new left of today aims more at a global revolution than in the past, because in the past communism appeared as a form of opposition to colonial/neocolonial forces. It's not the case today. Because of globalization we now feel that in order for things to change the revolution has to be global too...

I agree, at least the "serious" or conscious left has accepted the necessity of action to be international and I hope this is understood more all the time.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

As always theory differs "a bit" from reality. All communist experiences developed into nationalism. A diferent form of nationalism, perhaps, but still nationalism.

She is right on this one. All the Leninist experiments used Nationalism to popularize themselves. Take par example the USSR, China and Vietnam for very clear examples. This has developped itself in very nasty shit: socialism combined with nationalism. One example being the "National-Bolsheviks" of present day Russia, who are actually nothing more then nazi's, but still claims to be Communists. That's why I am very much against nationalism, even "small-nationalism" or "national-liberation". This has to be a workingclass's struggle, nothing less.

[scimitar]

Nationalism is a dangerous ideology, and an obstacle that, in my opinion, must be one of the first things (as leftists) we should fight to remove.

How many crimes against humanity have been committed in the name of the "nation"?

Too many, that's for sure.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by Non-Sectarian Bastard!@Apr 24 2005, 05:39 PM
She is right on this one. All the Leninist experiments used Nationalism to popularize themselves. Take par example the USSR, China and Vietnam for very clear examples. This has developped itself in very nasty shit: socialism combined with nationalism. One example being the "National-Bolsheviks" of present day Russia, who are actually nothing more then nazi's, but still claims to be Communists. That's why I am very much against nationalism, even "small-nationalism" or "national-liberation". This has to be a workingclass's struggle, nothing less.
Yeah, I agree; I was just trying to make sure we didn't have any confusion on the issues.
Sorry if I gave off the "no, no, that's all wrong," vibe.

[Abstrakt]

Haha. No, it's cool. Thanks guys for helping me with my questions. I enjoyed the quote from Lennin, but didn't he himself pull out the Nationalism card?

[Turkish Marxist]

I agree with simitar he is right nationlism lead to facism similar to the NAZIs

[workersunity]

ya dude, seriously where did you hear that it was nationalistic, nationalism isnt even on the left side of the politial spectrum, read the communist manifesto and tell me what it says about nationalism

[SpeCtrE]

Communism is a higher version of nationalism in a sense that the love of your country, your people, your family and your surroundings... this later becomes internationalistic.

However, if the metamorphosis stops at being nationalistic, then it is a real problem.

Man, Admirer,Dedicated, Nationalistic, Communist.

[Black Dagger]

Communism is a higher version of nationalism in a sense that the love of your country,

Communism has nothing to do with nationalism ('high' as it may be), excuse the cliche, but loyalty should be to the class, not the country.

[RedStarOverChina]

USSR and China gave out aid to other countries selflessly didnt they? well...soviets usually have something to gain...but still, they supported China and others sincerely wishing the best for them when they themselves are in difficulties, and I think thats noble.(There are exceptions such as Hungary) China gave an incredible amount of aid to N korea, Vietnam, Albania and African countries when its own people are starving to death and China had little to gain. Im not saying that the Chinese and Soviet communists werent nationalists but im only raising this issue, that while those communist counties certainly were more generous than u would expect of nationalists. Gave them credit for that.

[LSD]

USSR and China gave out aid to other countries selflessly didnt they? well...soviets usually have something to gain...but still, they supported China and others sincerely wishing the best for them when they themselves are in difficulties, and I think thats noble.

To be fair, Soviet aid to the CCP, especially durring the Civil war was pretty sparse and almost always late!

Even durring the early years of the PRC, the USSR didn't really contribute much... and we all know what happened after '57!


China gave an incredible amount of aid to N korea, Vietnam, Albania and African countries when its own people are starving to death and China had little to gain.

Well, what they had to gain was allies.

It was the same reason that the US gave aid to India and Turkey. It was all about shoring up one's "sphere of influence".

The Soviets didn't aid Cuba because they "liked" them, they gave aid to Cuba because they liked having a missile base 90 miles from the US!

[Che1990]

Communism is totally opposite to nationalism. and as for che yes he did kill people but for a very valid reason, stalin and saddam started out communist and then, like mao zedong and many others, turned into dictators which is not socialism at all and is why they were brought to justice.

[RedStarOverChina]

To speak with honesty, the USSRs aid for China was VITAL for China. They helped Chinese factories and just about everything u can think of. Even though the Chinese split with the Soviets, the Chinese remian thankful towards their efforts. There is no danger of us overly exaggerating the massive scale of USSRs aid towards China from 1949 until the Sino soviet slit.
After WWII the Soviets did their best to supply eastrn Germany with abundant food supply while people under US in the west are being starved(believe it or not, many western Germans escaped to the west during this period of time).
THEY HELPED and that is the truth.

The Chinese aid towards countries such as Tanzania and Zambia after 1949 contributed enormously to the Africas developement and in return, Africans literally brought China back into the UN. I dont see this as bribery since unlike the US China did not demand ANYTHING from those countries. Nor did China enforce anything upon the African people. u must remember that China itself was an developing country under severe difficulties--It was not like US who can afford to throw their money around (even then they still demanded the developing worlds soverignity)

Admit it, unlike the imperialists, the communist countries, tho are nationalists, are alot better than the profit-seeking imperialist power(until the Soviet became a imperialist power itself).

[MKS]

A revolution of any sort will never result without nationalistic sentiment.

If you look at the Cuban revolution as an example, most of the fighters and supporters of the revolution were not fighting a socialist revolution, but a war of liberation and national self determination. They were fighting for Cuba and Cubans. In the intrests of the nation the workers chose Fidel and the Party as their leader, and in the intrests of the nation the workers, the people of Cuba struggle.

it is a nice theory to think of Communism without borders, however it will never happen, at least a revolution with such a desired outcome will never happen. People will never relinquish their national identity. They fight as Russians, Cubans, Mexicans, Americans, Germans etc. National identity is too much a part of the modern mindset.

[RedStarOverChina]

i think the elimination of boarders and nations is inevitable...but it takes time. Its the only logical thing to happen. However u cant teach a stone age man about animal rights---even if its the right thing, the conditions have not been met. The samething with nationalism. It will be a part of peoples lifes for a long time to come. I am a patriot because i believe patriotism is the ally of communist struggle against imperialism(not always the ally for the workers struggle). We have already distinguished patriotism from imperialism and that patriotism can be limited to a defensive weapon against racism and imperialism.

I believe nationalism will disappear but not now. Right now it is an powerful weapon to fend off the wolves.

[Enragé]

Nationalism in a sense that it sets people free (the desire to be free from a foreign occupying colonial force, or economic foreign oppression such as in cuba, with pro-colonial/imperial puppets) is a good thing. However the kind that places one people over the other (Ubermensch) is something completely differant.

The use of Nationalism in Vietnam, Cuba, Ireland etc has always been one to FREE, not oppress.

[986Boobop424]

Well I'm glad to see at least you think reasonably. Now if only we can get other dumbasses around the boards to think like you do. ;)

[Redmau5]

A bit of patriotism usally doesn't do any harm, and can help inspire people sometimes. However believing that the nation is the most important thing certainly does nothing but divide people. It may unite the people of that particular nation, but it's disastrous in international terms.

[Mitch Flo]

Some quotes I found on Nationalism..... I love the last one. By Einstein



"Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. ''Patriotism'' is its cult. It should hardly be necessary to say, that by ''patriotism'' I mean that attitude which puts the own nation above humanity, above the principles of truth and justice; not the loving interest in one's own nation, which is the concern with the nation's spiritual as much as with its material welfare /never with its power over other nations. Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one's country which is not part of one's love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship."
-Erich Fromm American social philosopher and psychoanalyst, 1900-1980


"Patriotism is proud of a country's virtues and eager to correct its deficiencies; it also acknowledges the legitimate patriotism of other countries, with their own specific virtues. The pride of nationalism, however, trumpets its country's virtues and denies its deficiencies, while it is contemptuous toward the virtues of other countries. It wants to be, and proclaims itself to be, "the greatest," but greatness is not required of a country; only goodness is."

-Sydney J. Harris

"Pervading nationalism imposes its dominion on man today in many different forms and with an aggressiveness that spares no one. The challenge that is already with us is the temptation to accept as true freedom what in reality is only a new form of slavery."

-Pope Jean John Paul II

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."

-Albert Einstein

[Antijingo]

Socialism anywhere is socialism. To draw any kind of distinction between the degree of dedication to ones own country and one's dedication to any other would promote complacency towards the exploitation of the developing world. Not very socialist.


Originally posted by Che Guevara
To die under the flag of Vietnam, of Venezuela, of Guatemala, of Laos, of Guinea, of Colombia, of Bolivia, of Brazil-to name only a few scenes of today's armed struggle-would be equally glorious and desirable for an American, an Asian, an African, even a European.

[Abstrakt]

I would have to disagree with the coments of the Cuban revolution a few people have stated. The Cuban revolution was not communist. Yes, Che and Fidel's brother were, but not Fidel. In fact, the Cuban Communist Party(I believe it was called the PSP, but I don't remember) was not allowed to come to many meetings, or be apart of many important decisions. Fidel kept his ties with them in secret for a long time, from fear he would lose his power in the Movement.

Also, if Nationalism isn't communist, Mao and Stalin were never Communist. All the other leaders also. Wouldn't that be correct?

[LSD]

Also, if Nationalism isn't communist, Mao and Stalin were never Communist.

To a large extent, I don't think they were.

Certainly neither of them advocated their governments "withering away"! :o