Police Brutality

[RedCeltic]

Tonight, there were two breaking stories involving police brutality in my neighborhood. While police had responded to a fight between two girls at a local middle school, a girl who was spitting up blood caused a police officer to believe he was being attacked by her and threw her to the ground, in the process, breaking her jaw and causing severe damage to one eye. The eye now is hemorrhaging and the jaw requires a metal plate to mend the shattered bone. The Albany Police Department claims that they reserve the right to defend themselves from anyone regardless of age or sex.

Also, a man had been chased by police officers for stealing a package of incense. After capture they put him in the back of a police van and drove him three blocks to the station where he was found dead. There is no evidence yet as to the cause of death.

In addition, one year ago in December, a man had been pulled over by police. When he got out of his car to run, the police opened fire into a croweded busy intersection full of Christmas shoppers and people coming home from work. One innocent person was shot and killed walking home to his apartment building. The police have yet to be charged with any crime and are today still on active duty.

It is unacceptable that these pigs occupy streets of neighborhoods they do not belong to and are not held accountable for their actions. Tomorrow a group of us will be demonstrating against police brutality in front of the police station in Arbor Hill, demanding that the pigs who brutalized the middle school girl be brought up on charges.

Our neighborhoods need to take example from the Black Panther Party of Self Defense and organize “Cop Watch” actions, where citizens exercise their rights to defend their own neighborhoods and keep tabs on what the pigs do.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 12:36 AM
Our neighborhoods need to take example from the Black Panther Party of Self Defense and organize “Cop Watch” actions, where citizens exercise their rights to defend their own neighborhoods and keep tabs on what the pigs do.
I agree and also embarrassing pigs helps. They need good PR and the more people resent them, the better. If they will not be held accountable for even the most horrible actions, people need to organize. Perhaps call out those responsible by name, make their actions known, put up posters, demonstrate and take direct action. Pigs will pay!

A motto idea:

Serve and protect or abuse and neglect?

[RedCeltic]

While giving the pigs a "bad image" isn't a poor idea, it isn't something that is needed in the communities where they have the most presence and influance. (Black Communities.) The problem there, isn't how pigs are viewed, yet rather the self defeating attitude that there is just nothing to be done.

I saw a Panther poster once that said something to the effect of, "We need to begin creating artwork that will get people to go out and shoot pigs."

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 02:22 PM
While giving the pigs a "bad image" isn't a poor idea, it isn't something that is needed in the communities where they have the most presence and influance. (Black Communities.) The problem there, isn't how pigs are viewed, yet rather the self defeating attitude that there is just nothing to be done.

I saw a Panther poster once that said something to the effect of, "We need to begin creating artwork that will get people to go out and shoot pigs."
:o

Do you think people should go out and shoot police officers?

[1936]

Do you think people should go out and shoot police officers?

What the hell is your obsesion with left wing activists wiping dudes out.

[RedCeltic]

Do you think people should go out and shoot police officers?

No... I said I saw a Black Panther Party poster that said that.

[Jersey Devil]

So then what is stopping you from going out and attacking the "pigs"?

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by Jersey [email protected] 23 2005, 02:20 PM
So then what is stopping you from going out and attacking the "pigs"?
The fact that it would solve nothing but to put more pigs on the streets.

I believe the answer is not killing pigs, but rather.... people seeing the pigs as an occupying force, Copwatch... where communities esure pigs are not abusing their power, and community watch programs where the burden of ensuring communities are safe places to live is placed on the communites rather than outside forces that have no stake in community affairs.

[Jersey Devil]

That sounds a little "reformist" instead of "radical communist" don't you think? If they are indeed an "occupying force" then the only way to get rid of the "occupying force" is though bloody force. Marx did not advocate "reform" he advocated revolution.

[NovelGentry]

That sounds a little "reformist" instead of "radical communist" don't you think? If they are indeed an "occupying force" then the only way to get rid of the "occupying force" is though bloody force. Marx did not advocate "reform" he advocated revolution.

Yes, but at the same time it was a revolution that seeked to take hold of the existing organ. So really building up around the existing police and then taking that control from this. This really only makes sense at the top of the hierarchy though -- pushing yourself in a position to oppose the police on their level is really only gonna get the national guard called, and it's unlikely you have a means to oppose that.

Really... I think shooting cops is ultimately pointless until they've really bared down. RedCeltic's idea is very much in line with this. You don't really just kill them... but you build up an organ comparible to their position (or what their position is supposed to be) and then wrest that control and position from them.

Reformist would be trying to get yourself elected mayor and then writing laws to limit the polices actions -- you want to replace the police, overthrow them, but not simply by random attack, but by truly creating an opposition and an alternative and then "battling for power" so to speak.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

The point is with shooting cops or using violence against the state at this moment, we are outgunned and outnumberd. Do CopWatch and possibly hang up posters with names, adresses and personal information of local cops. Especially if they brutalized recently.

[RedCeltic]

That sounds a little "reformist" instead of "radical communist" don't you think?

No I don't think it's "Reformist" at all. In fact, it's also not a "pie in the sky" idea. "Copwatch" is something that anarchist collectives already do. "Reformists" oppose this, as reformists believe that the way to oppose police brutality is through the formation of community investigation councils, and special non for profit groups that will lobby city hall, and various politicians and political groups to do something to "reign in" rouge police officers.

Reformists, don't want to do away with the police department... nor the institutions of our elitist capitalist government... but rather give them a more "friendly" face.


If they are indeed an "occupying force" then the only way to get rid of the "occupying force" is though bloody force.

In many cases this may be true. However, when we are talking about minority communities and their exposure to US Occupying forces in their communities (Pigs) the pigs along with the US Government have the power to crush any such movement before it gets off the ground.

Keep in mind, that this has all occurred before. Police firebombed a house in Philadelphia that housed the MOVE organization due to similar ideas. In the 1970's most of the members of the SLA (Symbonise Liberation Army) were wiped out when the police tried to raid their safehouse... they had similar dreams of gunning down pigs in the streets.... and don't forget the cowardly murder of Fred Hampton by the pigs in Dec. 1969.

All of these examples seem to support the argument that Emma Goldman made when she said, "When you talk about using a sword, you give your enemies a sword to use against you."

In addition, the talk of using "bloody force" in opposition to police on a messageboard is something done only by agent provocateurs, or foolish people with no real interest in changing things.

Any talk of using violence to solve either the threat pigs represent in our communities, to overthrow capitalism, or the US Government... is quite simplistic at best. You must realize both the power and the history this government has in opposing such violent threats. Bloody force is something we often see used most in the third world and then even still it seems as if, without the creation of community organizations for community control, it's often taken over by the most ruthless of elements.

I believe that the syndicalist model is best for opposing such overwhelming power, force and threat to the people that Capitalist Government of the United States and it's agencies (IE Pigs) represents.

For one, Community watch programs are something that the police department actually endorses because it makes their jobs much easier... even though it also undermines their power by eradicating the use for them.

As for "Copwatch" while the pigs don't much like it, such programs are perfectly within the law.

Combined with a syndicalist political and economic model... these programs can serve undermine the power and authority of the US capitalist government, as well as it's power... thereby hastening it's eradication.

Gunning down pigs in the streets will only serve to place more people in graveyards and on death row... thereby accomplishing nothing but the belief that we need MORE cops on the streets.

[Xvall]

Originally posted by Jersey [email protected] 23 2005, 10:00 PM
That sounds a little "reformist" instead of "radical communist" don't you think? If they are indeed an "occupying force" then the only way to get rid of the "occupying force" is though bloody force. Marx did not advocate "reform" he advocated revolution.
Yeah, but it's better than murdering police officers, being regarded by the entire nation as terrorists, getting hunted down and executed, and tainting the name of whatever political ideology we follow.

[Totalitarian Militant]

Maybe if there werent so many retards in society, such as yourselves, cops wouldnt even be needed.

Ever think of that? No, because youre all blindly looking in one direction as usual.

[Frederick_Engles]

The police are servants of the ruling class, nothing more. Why is this in the opposing ideology forum?

[cubist]

we fight when we feel it rigfht to do so, being beaten and arrested for protesting something you dislike, is an honour and don't ever think otherwise,

as for action, the best is to go filming, arm up and film cops, catch em and expose them,

video vigilantes of a different kind :)

[RedCeltic]

Maybe if there werent so many retards in society, such as yourselves, cops wouldnt even be needed.

Ever think of that? No, because youre all blindly looking in one direction as usual.

Firstly, your insistence on the use of the word "retards" in the framework of a general personal attack creates impedance to any attempt from others to grasp the thesis of your "argument."

Secondly, there will always be a need for social groups (communities) to defend themselves, and "keep the peace." The present structure of law enforcement however is so detatched from the locality of communities that it only serves to represent the interests of capital within the framework of an awkwardly top heavy and anti democratic capitalist super state such as the United States of America.


The police are servants of the ruling class, nothing more. Why is this in the opposing ideology forum?

In a way, you have answered your own question comrade. As Law enforcement as we know it within the capitalist construct, or as even represented within the present and now defunct "Communist" States is an element of servitude to the ruling class (or party) we must thus view it as an element of opposition to revolutionary change. (Basically I didn't think it fit into any other forum.)

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan+Apr 22 2005, 02:29 PM--> (t_wolves_fan @ Apr 22 2005, 02:29 PM)
[email protected] 22 2005, 02:22 PM
While giving the pigs a "bad image" isn't a poor idea, it isn't something that is needed in the communities where they have the most presence and influance. (Black Communities.) The problem there, isn't how pigs are viewed, yet rather the self defeating attitude that there is just nothing to be done.

I saw a Panther poster once that said something to the effect of, "We need to begin creating artwork that will get people to go out and shoot pigs."
:o

Do you think people should go out and shoot police officers? [/b]
One problem? I shot guns. I own lots of them. I don't meet lots of commies taking target practice. Being lethal with a firearm is not a natural skill, it must be practiced and acquired through dilligence, if not then your dangerous to yourself with the firearm. Since I don't meet lots of commies taking target practice, my recommendation to commies? Buy lots of guns and keep them nearby. You don't need the training really, just let chance and evolution sort things out.

[1936]

One problem? I shot guns. I own lots of them. I don't meet lots of commies taking target practice. Being lethal with a firearm is not a natural skill, it must be practiced and acquired through dilligence, if not then your dangerous to yourself with the firearm. Since I don't meet lots of commies taking target practice, my recommendation to commies? Buy lots of guns and keep them nearby. You don't need the training really, just let chance and evolution sort things out.

Dude im not one to usually resort to personal attacks...ok thats a lie.

But seriousley man, there is a world outside your parents basement, LIFE IS NOT ABOUT WHAT LEVEL YOU CAN GET TO ON DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS!

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by The World's 1st [email protected] 30 2005, 07:29 PM

One problem? I shot guns. I own lots of them. I don't meet lots of commies taking target practice. Being lethal with a firearm is not a natural skill, it must be practiced and acquired through dilligence, if not then your dangerous to yourself with the firearm. Since I don't meet lots of commies taking target practice, my recommendation to commies? Buy lots of guns and keep them nearby. You don't need the training really, just let chance and evolution sort things out.

Dude im not one to usually resort to personal attacks...ok thats a lie.

But seriousley man, there is a world outside your parents basement, LIFE IS NOT ABOUT WHAT LEVEL YOU CAN GET TO ON DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS!
Hey read the post. I shoot guns. I don't think I could do that in the basement.

I tinker with the Acura to get it to go fast.

Is that enough of a life outside of work?

[bed_of_nails]

Originally posted by ahhh_money_is_comfort+Apr 30 2005, 07:38 PM--> (ahhh_money_is_comfort @ Apr 30 2005, 07:38 PM)
The World's 1st [email protected] 30 2005, 07:29 PM

One problem? I shot guns. I own lots of them. I don't meet lots of commies taking target practice. Being lethal with a firearm is not a natural skill, it must be practiced and acquired through dilligence, if not then your dangerous to yourself with the firearm. Since I don't meet lots of commies taking target practice, my recommendation to commies? Buy lots of guns and keep them nearby. You don't need the training really, just let chance and evolution sort things out.

Dude im not one to usually resort to personal attacks...ok thats a lie.

But seriousley man, there is a world outside your parents basement, LIFE IS NOT ABOUT WHAT LEVEL YOU CAN GET TO ON DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS!
Hey read the post. I shoot guns. I don't think I could do that in the basement.

I tinker with the Acura to get it to go fast.

Is that enough of a life outside of work? [/b]
Maybe your gene-pool was never really full, but let me try explaining this to you once more...

When we go somewhere, unless we are specifically intent on engaging in a public debate we dont just shout out "I AM A LEFTIST". I am quite handy with a rifle and I go down to the local gun club with some of my friends on occasion. Commies do know how to use guns, and the first time I fired one I was 11 and a boy-scout. I picked it up pretty fast so you shouldnt go assuming they are so hard to fire ;).

Unless you find normally simple tasks rather difficult.

Instructions on how to fire a gun:

Step A: Aim the gun at the other person.

Step B: Pull the trigger.

Disclaimer: If you performed Step A backwards, you are what ahhh_money_is_comfort assumed; an idiot.

[1936]

Hey read the post. I shoot guns. I don't think I could do that in the basement.

....computer games and chronic masturbation dont count.

And i was 9 when i shot my first gun....maybe it was only a BB gun but still...that bastard ass squirell nibbled hes last nut

[bed_of_nails]

My first gun to shoot was a shotgun. I killed that clay-pidgeon.

[1936]

Well something has to be doen with police...and in the long run the army....i dont fancie going up against 400 pounds of trained efficent killing machiene armed to the teeth with guns that rip through walls.

Thats why we must win the masses with our words before we beat the facists with our swords.....

Wow how poetic....i think that may end up on my signature...

[bed_of_nails]

400 pounds? Who the hell are you fighting?

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by bed_of_nails+Apr 30 2005, 07:51 PM--> (bed_of_nails @ Apr 30 2005, 07:51 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 07:38 PM

The World's 1st [email protected] 30 2005, 07:29 PM

One problem? I shot guns. I own lots of them. I don't meet lots of commies taking target practice. Being lethal with a firearm is not a natural skill, it must be practiced and acquired through dilligence, if not then your dangerous to yourself with the firearm. Since I don't meet lots of commies taking target practice, my recommendation to commies? Buy lots of guns and keep them nearby. You don't need the training really, just let chance and evolution sort things out.

Dude im not one to usually resort to personal attacks...ok thats a lie.

But seriousley man, there is a world outside your parents basement, LIFE IS NOT ABOUT WHAT LEVEL YOU CAN GET TO ON DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS!
Hey read the post. I shoot guns. I don't think I could do that in the basement.

I tinker with the Acura to get it to go fast.

Is that enough of a life outside of work?
Maybe your gene-pool was never really full, but let me try explaining this to you once more...

When we go somewhere, unless we are specifically intent on engaging in a public debate we dont just shout out "I AM A LEFTIST". I am quite handy with a rifle and I go down to the local gun club with some of my friends on occasion. Commies do know how to use guns, and the first time I fired one I was 11 and a boy-scout. I picked it up pretty fast so you shouldnt go assuming they are so hard to fire ;).

Unless you find normally simple tasks rather difficult.

Instructions on how to fire a gun:

Step A: Aim the gun at the other person.

Step B: Pull the trigger.

Disclaimer: If you performed Step A backwards, you are what ahhh_money_is_comfort assumed; an idiot. [/b]
If you have been to the range, then you know the head count.

Your outnumbered.

Not only are you outnumbered, but your outnumbered by people who are going to be passionately anti-commie. Probably these people would even welcome the chance to shoot commies.

[bed_of_nails]

How do you know that? We might be all the commies, just there to convince you otherwise ;)

I thought I might give you some irrational food for thought, just in case you are the paranoid little fuck most right-wing idiots are ;)


Edit: Judging by the grammar and debating techniques you have shown in your posts, I do not think you are an adult male at all. Judging on your grammar and spelling, I believe that you are either a teenager with nothing better to do than pretend to be an old man (I bet you do that in the chat-rooms also). If you arent an old man, then somebody took a little too much shrapnel to the head.

[RedCeltic]

One problem? I shot guns. I own lots of them. I don't meet lots of commies taking target practice. Being lethal with a firearm is not a natural skill, it must be practiced and acquired through dilligence, if not then your dangerous to yourself with the firearm. Since I don't meet lots of commies taking target practice, my recommendation to commies? Buy lots of guns and keep them nearby. You don't need the training really, just let chance and evolution sort things out.

Firstly, you may have just fell of a potato truck kid, but this thread isn't about armed revolution.

secondly.... as someone who has had military training I can tell right away that you don't know very much about firearms or armed conflict. If you did know something about firearms, armed conflicts (exp. guerrilla warfare) you would know that there is much more involved than being a sharpshooter. If what you are saying was true and that every individual involved in an armed uprising needs to be a highly trained sharpshooter, than how do you explain the success of the Viet-Cong, or the anti-communist South American Death squads that gave automatic weapons to untrained women and children and told them to point and shoot. What about the emptying of a mag from an AK47 requires target practice?

You also seem to have this misconception that since there may be many right wing tobacco chewing, butt picking, fat ass red necks down at your local rifle range... that all you need to stop a revolution is a couple of your buddies, some shot guns you got from Wall-Mart back when you thought you might actually take up hunting one day rather than just getting shit faced in the woods. your old '85 ford pickup and a case of bud and you're set... but guess what fella'..... Fidel had 8 comrades with him ... and two rifles... ;)

[Djehuti]

Even though we have some problems with cops in our cities, we lack the strenght and organization to have active patrols in the area to take put the cops in place. However, on demonstrations and street/park parties and such, we usually help people that are being harassed, photographed, etc. We tell the cops to stop what they are doing or they will have to leave the area. If they try to arrest one of us, we stop them. If they attack (not to often, but it happens) we fight back, sometimes they win, sometimes we do, but it is important to show that we do not tolerate the police to interfere with our demonstrations and parties.

I remember one day in Paris last year. There was a socialist Oi!-concert with a lot of communist and anarchist skins and other socialists. The police wanted to close down the gig, but that was not ok. The police attacked. They were many and much better equiped but the concert-participants refused to give after for the police. The riot cops attacked, and attacked, shot teargas and waved with billy clubs but they were beaten bloody against the wall of anarchists/commies, refusing to give an inch of ground to the cops. After some time the police were forced to retreat, and many of them were sent to the hospital. The police recieved heavy critique after this.

The police will almost always be better equiped than us, but dicipline often is even more important than weapons and armor. And just strenghth in numbers and a firm mind will do it for us, if we are strong and many and ready to back up our words with violence it can often suffice. The cops wont risk a riot when they really dont need to.
Stand up against the cops, and others will be inspired and do the same.

[Ele'ill]

Cops are the proletariat as is the military.

[bed_of_nails]

But they dont work for the Proletariat. A tool of the Burgeois (sp? I can never spell that word) is going to be the enemy until they stop attempting to oppress people.

[t_wolves_fan]

Why do you think cops eventually turn to brutal tactics?

[OleMarxco]

Because police polite-policy just doesn't work on the frenzied masses of the oppressed workers everywhere, o'course! THEN THEY TURN TO EITHER THEIR DESPERATE TACTIC OF KNOCKING US DOWN WITH UNFAIR ODDS WITH LIKE, BLUNT OBJECTS N'SHIT OR FLEE THE FUCK OFF. Woah! :D

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 03:08 PM
Because police polite-policy just doesn't work on the frenzied masses of the oppressed workers everywhere, o'course! THEN THEY TURN TO EITHER THEIR DESPERATE TACTIC OF KNOCKING US DOWN WITH UNFAIR ODDS WITH LIKE, BLUNT OBJECTS N'SHIT OR FLEE THE FUCK OFF. Woah! :D
I think you're close and yet so far away.

Tell me, if it were your job to keep the peace and nearly every other day you were attacked with bottles, knives, fists, spit, guns, etc., would you perhaps turn violent?

Are crackheads, prostitutes, drunken thugs, and common thieves "oppressed"?

[OleMarxco]

No, but sometimes a cop might take a....shall we say, "drastic conclusion". As for that, I WERE TALKING ABOUT WORKER-DEMONSTRATIONS, goddamnit, not outstraight-criminals, you coconut. Talk about shifting subject partly. Crackheads and prostitutes I think are no issue: Shall we say, as a capitalist would've said...ah..."They're just running their buisness", as for whores...and crackheads and crackdealers....well, they're just idiots, but no real threath to the "peace-keeping". Drunken "thugs" are usually no more than fools who have taken too much alcohol and rambles around half-harassing people withouth doing it consciously...perhaps they SHOULD be "taken care of", but not the way YOU think of, fer'so sho. Common Thieves - true, but sometimes MISUNDERSTANDINGS happen. You have to weigh over the risks...or REASON to get into violence. Do you "have to" beat a drug-addict to enforce the law? Like, imagine this conversation:

Drug addict smokes some weed sitting at a bench in the park.
Police officer goes by.
Police Officer: "Ma'm/mr., you are illegally smoking in an public place!"
Drug addict: "Oh, am I? But I didn't know there were a rule, were is the sig..."
Police Officer: "He's resisting arrest! Beat him!"
*violence ensues*

But if you're attacked, I have no beef with defending yourself.
But sometimes a cop is FOR A REASON. Some have bad temper, true...at getting a fine, mayhap, or...whatever...but when they try to stop an "illegal" demonstration, they are bound to meet resistance. The trouble doesn't start when they start to demonstrate, but when the cops start to come and insist to START shit to STOP shit. Bullshit.

So you suggest I'm in limbo then, huh, eh? :D

[t_wolves_fan]

Fair enough, anti-war protests.

Don't you think after protest after protest after protest where a small group of protesters manages every single time to cross the line by instigating violence, that the cops are going to be on short strings?

[OleMarxco]

Not unless it's the very same cops everytime, and, ironically enough violence pre-empetive at a Anti-War rally...which seems to be a kinda ironic...I only accept violence, of course, if the cops ATTACK them outstraight. But no, I'd think they'd become a bit brutal and cynic after a while, yeah....understandable, but why the hell a demonstration is wrong in the first place goes beyond me DESPITE laws. Is it "morally wrong"? Does the cop just "carry out their orders", or do they actually decide it is ethically right to beat up protestors unprovokinly because they..."have violated a rule" i.e. protested illegaly? I think there should be no law against demonstrations. But also, if EVERY time the protest violence happens BECAUSE of the cops, the luck's yours gentlemen....Reactions to cops might be a bit biased and harsh, but, they shouldn't have cracked down on a non-violent demonstration in the FIRST place. An outstraight riot of course gets resistance and I won't neglect them to try to defend people and pets and houses...but....just waving some signs don't call for violence on both sides, basta.

[RedCeltic]

If you had read the first post where I started this thread, you would see the example of a pig throwing a 14 year old girl to the ground and breaking her jaw because he felt that her spitting up blood in his direction was a threat.

It is true that pigs see only the worst elements of society, and if aren't racists when they join the force they often become that way. If the 14 year old girl was white, I seriously doubt that two big white cops each twice her size would feel the need to throw her to the ground in such a way. They may be used to dealing with crack whores all day long yet that does not excuse them from treating a middle school child in such a way. (ON SCHOOL GROUNDS).

Also is the example of the pig who fired shots into a croweded intersection and killed an innocent bystander. While the act could be calked up for simple stupidity, the real issue in my mind is why was nothing ever done about it... and WHY IS HE STILL ON THE FORCE??!!!

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 11:20 AM
Fair enough, anti-war protests.

Don't you think after protest after protest after protest where a small group of protesters manages every single time to cross the line by instigating violence, that the cops are going to be on short strings?
That's their job. If it's too much pressure for them than they shouldn't be a police officer should they?

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 04:58 PM
If you had read the first post where I started this thread, you would see the example of a pig throwing a 14 year old girl to the ground and breaking her jaw because he felt that her spitting up blood in his direction was a threat.

It is true that pigs see only the worst elements of society, and if aren't racists when they join the force they often become that way. If the 14 year old girl was white, I seriously doubt that two big white cops each twice her size would feel the need to throw her to the ground in such a way. They may be used to dealing with crack whores all day long yet that does not excuse them from treating a middle school child in such a way. (ON SCHOOL GROUNDS).

Also is the example of the pig who fired shots into a croweded intersection and killed an innocent bystander. While the act could be calked up for simple stupidity, the real issue in my mind is why was nothing ever done about it... and WHY IS HE STILL ON THE FORCE??!!!
What we have is your interpretation of what you say you saw on the news. Who knows if what you describe is anywhere close to what actually happened.

I'd bet it isn't.

That aside, a cop who works a peace rally is the same cop who gets attacked by crackheads and other assorted human garbage. Here in Washington they're certainly more used to you clowns coming to town, and so always have to be ready when another batch of all-black clad punks, who think they are being original, start instigating violence.

I was at the inagurual for instance and saw the people who tried to climb the fence. There was ZERO good reason to do so. They were the same morons who were chanting "let us in" at the gate, even though they were BEING let in, apparently just not fast enough. Those examples showed me that the average anarchist who calls the cops "pigs" has an inflated sense of self-entitlement, where they think they should get to mess with the cops but are shocked to see the cops actually react.

Frankly I think if you get in a cop's face and call him a pig, he's entitled to arrange a meeting of his club and your adam's apple.

Plain common sense should tell you that if there's a guy who's bigger than you covered in body armor carrying a club you probably ought to leave him alone. But then, this is the whacko left I'm talking about.

[Ele'ill]

That's their job. If it's too much pressure for them than they shouldn't be a police officer should they?

Being a wage slave is a wage slave's job. Long hours, low pay, shitty work conditions. Don't like it? Too much pressure for them? They shouldn't be a wage slave should they?

You're basically choosing who's the proletariat. Dangerous. I'm sure you may be aware of the percentage/ratio of low income famlies and military service. It is a last option to do something with their lives. Grueling hours and grueling training; very low pay. Not everyone wants to be there I can tell you from experience. They are not all pro american many are the opposite. They are simply surviving.


It is true that pigs see only the worst elements of society, and if aren't racists when they join the force they often become that way.

What a generalizing statment. Not all police are racist. Not half of the police force is racist. There are no percentages to directly back up the idea that police become racist. They do see the worst elements of society, They are cleaning up the capitalist mess. The emotional and physical deterioration of society is seen and handled by police. They just dont' see it quite this way.

[RedCeltic]

Being a wage slave is a wage slave's job. Long hours, low pay, shitty work conditions. Don't like it? Too much pressure for them? They shouldn't be a wage slave should they?

You have no idea what you are talking about. "Wage Slave" doesn't mean that someone is bound to one job, it means that one is bound by the economic system in general. It also is mostly talking about those with little to no upward mobility.


You're basically choosing who's the proletariat. Dangerous. I'm sure you may be aware of the percentage/ratio of low income famlies and military service. It is a last option to do something with their lives. Grueling hours and grueling training; very low pay. Not everyone wants to be there I can tell you from experience. They are not all pro american many are the opposite. They are simply surviving.


Where have I said that cops are not proletariat? Where have I talked about people in military service in this thread? Police officers unlike militery service are paid very well. I also know how apealing a job as a cop can be. Expecially for someone who is a Veteran of the armed forces like myself who can basicly walk out of miltery service and step right into any police department and expect a nice paycheck, early retirement and good pension.

Believe me, I know there are plenty of reasons for people to join the army to go kill Iraqis or join the police force to kill black kids. You are right in that economic pressure does drive people to take anything that is a good secure job, even if it means betraying their own class.

However this still does not justify their actions. Believe me I could become a cop tommorow if I wanted to, I meet all the requirements... plus I'm Irish lol.... but I have no interest serving and protecting the interests of capital and property.

The IWW has does not (and never has) allowed for people in law enforcement to join the wobblies for it is considered a conflict on interest. While we have always considered cops to be proletariat just as we have always considered scab workers to be proletariat. However, while the scab works against the the workers by crossing the picketline, cops and the national guard historicly has used clubs and bayonetts against striking workers. So I hope you can understand that historicly speaking it has been difficult for the radical left to respect cops as fellow workers when they are under their clubs.

[Ele'ill]

You have no idea what you are talking about. "Wage Slave" doesn't mean that someone is bound to one job, it means that one is bound by the economic system in general. It also is mostly talking about those with little to no upward mobility.

Yeah and?
You simply elaborate on what I said. Wage Slave means they are a slave to a wage working a job that gives them a wage. This can also be applied in the sense that they are bound to a particular job. Retail as an example.



However this still does not justify their actions.

When a black kid shoots a cop it's police oppression, when a cop shoots a black kid it's police brutality.


(I'm using 'black kid' as a potent example. I'm sure you all understand the significance and won't pull the racism card. Thanks.)

[RedCeltic]

they are bound to a particular job. Retail as an example.

No they aren't. No one is bound to one job, but rather bound to the life of living paycheck to paycheck. Perhaps if you live out in the sticks where there are no other types of jobs your argument would have merit but where police brutality is most associated like here in New York there are many other options than being a cop. We aren't really talking about the third world here.


When a black kid shoots a cop it's police oppression, when a cop shoots a black kid it's police brutality.

Now you seem to be the one who is using generalizations here. In each case there are other factors other than the race of one individual and another being a cop. It very well be that the cop who shot a "black kid" was actually defending himself. It also may be very well likely that the "black kid" who shot a cop was also defending himself. Without knowing what actions took place you are basically trying to say that I'm indicating that whenever a cop dies it's good and whenever an ethnic minority dies it's bad. I didn't say that.

What I am trying to say in this thread is that the INSTITUTION of Law enforcement in the United States can not effectively represent the interests of minority communities.

With use of an anarchistic perspective one sees that the government of the US can not effectively address issues within these communities and therefore politics are worthless to effect change and therefore these changes must come about by the people themselves.

Therefore if we take one of these issues that affects the black community... (and believe me if you had ever been to a black community meeting... police brutality and overall presence on their streets ranks up there in their concerns) using an anarchistic perspective, like I have said... the most effective way to bring about changes is by community action rather than voting for some politician.

When policing the community becomes the responsibility of the community, than outside forces are unnecessary. As I have already said, gunning down cops in the streets will only bring more of them and therefore community organization is the key to victory.

You seem to be hell bent on making the argument that cops are just basically good/normal people. I will accept that some, maybe most are well meaning, and most are naturally normal men and women from working class backgrounds who get sent down to the worst sections of the Bronx or whatever which is a far cry from the suburbs they are used to... and are scared... and people make mistakes when they are scared.

I'm sure everyone here remembers the case of Amadu Dialo, the cops who shot him were from Long Island. They were out of their element. I don't think it was justified, yet I can understand the element of the cops being scared of a neighborhood they are not familiar with and a character that seemed somewhat sketchy in their minds.

However I put the fault more on the system than those responsible, and that's why strongly object to my idea of combating police brutality by community organizing as somehow "reformist"... for it's those who simply want to work within the system and get cops thrown off the force who make mistakes are the ones who in the end are perpetuating an ineffective system.

From what I had watched in the media, the issue in the Amadu Dialo case was never about why are white cops from the burbs policing black communities, but rather why were they so quick to shoot, and shoot so many rounds.

Again, as I have already said, in any society there is a need for laws and a need for the enforcement of those laws, even in an anarchist society. The difference being that under the sydicalist model there would be more local control of law, security, and economics.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by RedCeltic+May 3 2005, 11:01 AM--> (RedCeltic @ May 3 2005, 11:01 AM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 11:20 AM
Fair enough, anti-war protests.

Don't you think after protest after protest after protest where a small group of protesters manages every single time to cross the line by instigating violence, that the cops are going to be on short strings?
That's their job. If it's too much pressure for them than they shouldn't be a police officer should they? [/b]
Yeah, I don't understand why some have such reactions when you ask them to do their job...

In the state schools we where told to clean up after ourselves if we made messes and "be careful," which probably isn't that bad of an idea to teach kids but when they say you cannot have this or that, as well as "you can't do that because the janitors complain"...

I start to wonder; why are the janitors complaining about doing their jobs :blink:
If that is not in their job description; they aren’t required to clean anything out of the ordinary?
Perhaps it is just a big sham and the state doesn't want to employ anymore janitors than they "absolutely have to," and if this impedes the student's activities; fuck 'em (this is at least their attitude in many other matters).

Another example:

My comrade works as a dish washer and the cooks don’t like to do their entire job description, so they try to shove their work on him and then he can’t do it all so they lie to try and get him fired… reactionary assholes.

[KC]

What about that one dude in louisville (I think). The cops handcuffed him, searched him and found a knife with like a 2 inch blade, and then shot him to death (he was defenseless). The police that were involved still have their jobs and nothing was done against them for their horrible actions.

And no this isn't a biased account, it was all over the news. The whole event was taped. from a camera in the police cruiser. They handcuffed him first, found the knife, then shot him.

[Ele'ill]

No they aren't. No one is bound to one job, but rather bound to the life of living paycheck to paycheck. Perhaps if you live out in the sticks where there are no other types of jobs your argument would have merit but where police brutality is most associated like here in New York there are many other options than being a cop. We aren't really talking about the third world here.

We are agreeing. I'm saying they are bound to a particular job such as retail where the work is similar at every company as is the pay and the check. This can be applied to the entire system however i'd argue it.


Now you seem to be the one who is using generalizations here. In each case there are other factors other than the race of one individual and another being a cop. It very well be that the cop who shot a "black kid" was actually defending himself. It also may be very well likely that the "black kid" who shot a cop was also defending himself. Without knowing what actions took place you are basically trying to say that I'm indicating that whenever a cop dies it's good and whenever an ethnic minority dies it's bad. I didn't say that.

It was a potent example as I stated. We both know the right and left tend to go overboard with who's fault it would have been in that situation. That was the point. It wasn't meant to be taken so literally. I generally agree with the rest of your response and disagree with some of it as well. It's split. I agree that anarchist ideas can be integrated into for example town meetings. I have discussed this in-depth in another post though so I will not go back into it now.

[RedCeltic]

We are agreeing. I'm saying they are bound to a particular job such as retail where the work is similar at every company as is the pay and the check. This can be applied to the entire system however i'd argue it.

I suppose we are, I just misunderstood you at first which was my fault. I think I kind of misrepresented myself in some places and made it seem as I didn't see cops as workers and believed cops should be killed at random. That mention of the BPP poster wasn't realy serious even on the BPP's part.

A person I have great respect for and generally agree with most of his statements (Malcom X) once said in responce to killing cops in responce to blacks being killed was that if a person was bitten by a snake, you don't go looking for the snake with blood on it's fangs.... any ol' snake will do. I really don't think that is a productive outlook.

I do however agree with Malcom X when he had said we teach the people to respect the law and obey the law but if one of them puts their hands on you take them off the planet. If there is going to be a funeral in Harlem, make sure they have one in downtown as well.

Those aren't exact quotes mind you but the jist of what he said. As I have said, I believe in self defence and for that I couldn't call myself a pacifist. However the act of killing a cop just because he is a cop seems quite pointless.



It was a potent example as I stated. We both know the right and left tend to go overboard with who's fault it would have been in that situation. That was the point. It wasn't meant to be taken so literally.

Even though we do not live in a black and white world, many people see things as such this really has nothing to do with any one ideology but rather an urge to defend one's own ideas rather than trying to see things as they really are in any given situation.


I generally agree with the rest of your response and disagree with some of it as well. It's split. I agree that anarchist ideas can be integrated into for example town meetings. I have discussed this in-depth in another post though so I will not go back into it now.

I've gone back over the posts in this thread and have not been able to see where you have stated any positions on anarchism. I have an interest in reading this however... could you direct me to the thread?

[Ele'ill]

I actually do not remember which it was. It may have been one before I was restricted.

[inquisitive_socialist]

although i don't support the idea of actively attacking the police, there are things you should do if they attack you. Try passive resistance first. if thy're just arresting poeple you shoudn't attack them. If they use violence respond in kind. keep a wet rag over your mouth to keep the tear gas out or something along those lines. aim for their legs, no protection from the shield.or, crack the shield. if you stab them in the middle its too much pressure on one point and they crack. Don't just jump a police man, but if they attack you, fight back. throw cans of gas back at the ploiice. they have gas masks but it makes it harder for them to see.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 03:50 PM
although i don't support the idea of actively attacking the police, there are things you should do if they attack you. Try passive resistance first. if thy're just arresting poeple you shoudn't attack them. If they use violence respond in kind. keep a wet rag over your mouth to keep the tear gas out or something along those lines. aim for their legs, no protection from the shield.or, crack the shield. if you stab them in the middle its too much pressure on one point and they crack. Don't just jump a police man, but if they attack you, fight back. throw cans of gas back at the ploiice. they have gas masks but it makes it harder for them to see.
I see bars and blue uniforms in your future.

[OleMarxco]

From outside of them, that is :D

[Monky]

Originally posted by 313C7 iVi4RX+May 5 2005, 10:19 AM--> (313C7 iVi4RX @ May 5 2005, 10:19 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 11:01 AM

[email protected] 3 2005, 11:20 AM
Fair enough, anti-war protests.

Don't you think after protest after protest after protest where a small group of protesters manages every single time to cross the line by instigating violence, that the cops are going to be on short strings?
That's their job. If it's too much pressure for them than they shouldn't be a police officer should they?
Yeah, I don't understand why some have such reactions when you ask them to do their job...

In the state schools we where told to clean up after ourselves if we made messes and "be careful," which probably isn't that bad of an idea to teach kids but when they say you cannot have this or that, as well as "you can't do that because the janitors complain"...

I start to wonder; why are the janitors complaining about doing their jobs :blink:
If that is not in their job description; they aren’t required to clean anything out of the ordinary?
Perhaps it is just a big sham and the state doesn't want to employ anymore janitors than they "absolutely have to," and if this impedes the student's activities; fuck 'em (this is at least their attitude in many other matters).

Another example:

My comrade works as a dish washer and the cooks don’t like to do their entire job description, so they try to shove their work on him and then he can’t do it all so they lie to try and get him fired… reactionary assholes. [/b]
I honestly don't see how you can claim communism and say something like this..

It is not hard at all for you to clean up your little bag lunch your mommy packed for you. Most likely the janitors at your school are Mexican or from another Latin American Country. They are Economic refugees and are simply trying to survive in a Capitalist Nation. Communism is for all people, they do their job, and Janitors do a lot. You are asked to only do a little and yet you can not? You seem to be professing a pretty dangerous ''I'm better than you'' attitude that will ruin any communist/socialist nation.

[inquisitive_socialist]

i've already organized an organization w/ the intended purpose of watching the police that are stationed at my school. Theres a loose group of about 25 people. not enough for constant surveillance but we kept them from letting the drug dog search people. They claimed they had to searcha class but i said it was an invasion of my privacy as well as an unlawful search of my person. they had to leave and only search the lockers, bu they tore mine open and went through all my shit. like i'd have anything at school! oh well. little victories for the greater goal.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan+May 10 2005, 04:43 PM--> (t_wolves_fan @ May 10 2005, 04:43 PM)
[email protected] 10 2005, 03:50 PM
although i don't support the idea of actively attacking the police, there are things you should do if they attack you. Try passive resistance first. if thy're just arresting poeple you shoudn't attack them. If they use violence respond in kind. keep a wet rag over your mouth to keep the tear gas out or something along those lines. aim for their legs, no protection from the shield.or, crack the shield. if you stab them in the middle its too much pressure on one point and they crack. Don't just jump a police man, but if they attack you, fight back. throw cans of gas back at the ploiice. they have gas masks but it makes it harder for them to see.
I see bars and blue uniforms in your future. [/b]
Depending on the judge he might get a butt pounding prison. I prefer to revolt they way Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin intended for me to revolt; and that is with firearms in an all out civil insurection. Until then I obey the law.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 09:32 PM
i've already organized an organization w/ the intended purpose of watching the police that are stationed at my school. Theres a loose group of about 25 people. not enough for constant surveillance but we kept them from letting the drug dog search people. They claimed they had to searcha class but i said it was an invasion of my privacy as well as an unlawful search of my person. they had to leave and only search the lockers, bu they tore mine open and went through all my shit. like i'd have anything at school! oh well. little victories for the greater goal.
I would like to point out, legally as an infant, you don't have full rights. If parents request a search, there is noting to stop them from doing so.

[cormacobear]

True perants do have that right however if they were to, the child would have grounds for seeking Emancipation. The perants violated his expectation of privacy, and in contacting the police clearly failed to act in the best interests of the child, rendering them unfit gaurdians and if the child is 15 or older the child can sue for emancipation and still receive financial support from their perants. So perants should be wary of using the police to oppress their dependants it has been effectively used in emancipation trials before.

In Ontario a student sought the aid of a civil rights attourney, after he was expelled because a police dog smelled marijuana on his coat although there were insufficient traces to lay charges. He received a formal appology from the principle was readmitted to school, and the courts declared that searches of lockers were permitted but searching students or there bags was indeed a violation of there rights. The lockers are private property of the school, but police need probable cause to search a classroom or student. I'm certain such basic human rights will never be implemented by the US and their maniacal war on drugs.

[inquisitive_socialist]

im 17 and its basically like Cormacobear said. Its possible for my parents to order a search, but unlikely. My parents trust me and i rarely lie to them. as it is now im in a bit ofa bind. I came to school wearing my work pants and forgot i had a 4 inch knife in the pocket. it was found and now i have a court date. June 15th i beleive. oh well, stupidity on my part led me to this, i shoud probably accept the consequences.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 03:43 PM
True perants do have that right however if they were to, the child would have grounds for seeking Emancipation. The perants violated his expectation of privacy, and in contacting the police clearly failed to act in the best interests of the child, rendering them unfit gaurdians and if the child is 15 or older the child can sue for emancipation and still receive financial support from their perants. So perants should be wary of using the police to oppress their dependants it has been effectively used in emancipation trials before.

In Ontario a student sought the aid of a civil rights attourney, after he was expelled because a police dog smelled marijuana on his coat although there were insufficient traces to lay charges. He received a formal appology from the principle was readmitted to school, and the courts declared that searches of lockers were permitted but searching students or there bags was indeed a violation of there rights. The lockers are private property of the school, but police need probable cause to search a classroom or student. I'm certain such basic human rights will never be implemented by the US and their maniacal war on drugs.
We have basically the same protections here, winner.

[jiujitsu]

Police brutality is a myth. http://www.duckandcover.cx/forums/images/smiles/icon_dance.gif

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 05:04 PM
i shoud probably accept the consequences.
You sure you're a communist/socialist?

;)

[inquisitive_socialist]

im as convinced of my ideals as you are of yours, however, i will not let stupidity on my part lead to my to resisting arrest over such a trivial matter. i was stupid to bring the knife and i realize that but it would be even dumber to let people like you convince me to do anything rash because the police are involved. as for jiujitsu's assurances that police brutality is a myth. I know peole who had their legs broken in seattle and still cannot walk normally, all because they protested peacably. Its rather ironic that in seattle it was the police who atacked without provocation. They claimed it was an anarchist black bloc, that was not there. its hard to vandalize shops from 3 blocks away. the police can be brutal and they can be fair. its on a policeman by policeman basis. if the police attacked you would you still assure us that brutality by cops is a myth? do you think its necessary for suspects to be thrown on the ground and handcuffed before they are searched simply because they are black or latino and because racial groups tend to be armed more often according to police statistics? i rhink youd be wrong. i think if you plan on contributing intelligently to the boards, you could at least back up your opinion with some legitimate arguement. t_wolves_fan tries and his posts seem to get more of a response than YOUR brainless one liners.

[Ele'ill]

Police brutality is a myth.

Myths are sometimes, if not always, a great exaggeration of something that was based in reality at some point in time.

I agree.

I actually agree that oppression exists I most often disagree with what is being complained about it. Police presence in cities for example although I won't dive into this discussion. It's just an example i'm using to clarify the above statment.



all because they protested peacably. Its rather ironic that in seattle it was the police who atacked without provocation. They claimed it was an anarchist black bloc, that was not there. its hard to vandalize shops from 3 blocks away.

Maybe they were clued in by the large black A's spray painted on the buildings. Just a hunch though. ;)


do you think its necessary for suspects to be thrown on the ground and handcuffed before they are searched simply because they are black or latino and because racial groups tend to be armed more often according to police statistics? i rhink youd be wrong. i think if you plan on contributing intelligently to the boards, you could at least back up your opinion with some legitimate arguement. t_wolves_fan tries and his posts seem to get more of a response than YOUR brainless one liners.

I llived in the city for a while. Many of the minorities were armed to some extent. Gang life is romantacized. It gets brutal. Sometimes it makes more sense to handcuff a person first before you search them so you dont' end up shot or stabbed. It's just logical. Often minotrities are the poor. The poor areas are often the most violent. Gangs as an example I stated earlier. So it isn't really a 'simply because they are black or latino'. How do all these black males end up in prison? Are they all framed by the fraternal order of police? They did commit some form of crime.

So we are left with a myth. Simply the exaggeration that the police are an evil facist robot legion that are constantly portrayed in their stupid riot trench coats with those little plastic cuff things dangling around that really irritate you if you don't like loose things dangling off of clothes (like threads or hair ect..)

t_wolves_fan is one of the only sane members of this board. And for the record if you are going to accuse someone&#39;s posts of not invoking a response you shouldn&#39;t write a half a page response to it >.<

[jiujitsu]

Actually, my statement was only meant to get a reaction. I have friends that are going to school to become cops. They have gone on ride alongs in urban areas near where I live in New Jersey. From what they tell me a lot of cops are racist or at least stereotype a great deal. They are a tad ham fisted too. I don&#39;t blame them though. There are a lot of really fucking stupid people(most of the people) in those areas and they all generally fit the same profile. It&#39;s a dangerous job and it really gets to them I guess.

Outright brutality isn&#39;t a very common thing as it once was. It is very much against the current social policy. I trust cops as a whole are out for the better of the people. But I will never forget what they are: people.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 11:52 PM
How do you know that? We might be all the commies, just there to convince you otherwise ;)

I thought I might give you some irrational food for thought, just in case you are the paranoid little fuck most right-wing idiots are ;)


Edit: Judging by the grammar and debating techniques you have shown in your posts, I do not think you are an adult male at all. Judging on your grammar and spelling, I believe that you are either a teenager with nothing better to do than pretend to be an old man (I bet you do that in the chat-rooms also). If you arent an old man, then somebody took a little too much shrapnel to the head.
Lots of commies at the range just hiding out and laying low?

I think YOU KNOW I&#39;m right on this one. We out number YOU at the rifle range.

Just a guestimate and I think a pretty good one. It is a guestimate based on the Army and Marine bumper stickers. It is a guestimate based on US flags on gear and clothing. It is a guestimate based on the total lack of anything approaching communist at the range.

[bed_of_nails]

I am a communist at the range. That proves you wrong right off the bat with one of your assumptions.

We must look back to the point of how many people Fidel Castro had with him when he landed on Cuba. I believe it was nine men and two rifles. If nine men and two rifles could accomplish that, the world&#39;s communists could accomplish far more with the proper leadership.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 05:29 AM
I am a communist at the range. That proves you wrong right off the bat with one of your assumptions.

We must look back to the point of how many people Fidel Castro had with him when he landed on Cuba. I believe it was nine men and two rifles. If nine men and two rifles could accomplish that, the world&#39;s communists could accomplish far more with the proper leadership.
Work with me.

You must first recoginze I&#39;m right on "we out number you at the rifle range".

Just humor me. At least respond that I&#39;m right. I&#39;m sure you know I am.

Once you do understand and accept I&#39;m right on this, the rest will follow.

[Wolnosc-Solidarnosc]

What exactly is this "proper leadership" you speak of?

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by Wolnosc&#045;[email protected] 13 2005, 05:39 AM
What exactly is this "proper leadership" you speak of?
I don&#39;t know? Beats me? Never heard of it.

But I would like to steal this tread if I may. Or move it somewhere else? Please advise.

Why do communist need guns?

How can a system that based on good karma of justice and compassion, be born from bad karma of violence? I can not imagine people who have killing and violence in thier heart produce justice and compassion.

I&#39;d imagine justice and compassion comming from people who have justice and compassion as thier halmark trait. You know like the Dali Lama.