hizbullah

[KR1Z4]

wt u think abt hizbullah?
do u call it a militia or resistance party?

[Colombia]

I call them Islamic Fundamentalist Capitalists. More like terrorists in my view.

[dso79]

Hizbullah is a legitimate resistance organization. I support their struggle against Israel, and I appreciate their opposition to US imperialism and their support for the Palestinian cause.

[Cokane]

What the fuck is a terrorist? I could call any group or army in the world terrorists. I fuckin hate that word. But I too support Hizbollah in their fight against Israel and their support for the Palestinians.

[Dark Exodus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 06:11 PM
What the fuck is a terrorist? I could call any group or army in the world terrorists. I fuckin hate that word. But I too support Hizbollah in their fight against Israel and their support for the Palestinians.
A terrorist is a member of a group with a political aim. They try to achieve this aim by attacking civilian targets in the hope that the government will conform to their demands.
Just because the word is thrown around a lot by certain American Imperialists doesen't mean that it has lost meaning or that terrorist groups are now saints.

[Redmau5]

So would you call the IRA terrorists?

[refuse_resist]

The Hizbullah are a legitamate resistance group that operates in Lebanon. The only countries who call it "terrorists" are the United States and Israel because they were successful when they defeated the IDF. They have done a lot to help out people in that area.

[seraphim]

Originally posted by Makaveli[email protected] 20 2005, 08:43 PM
So would you call the IRA terrorists?
Yes because they attack or used to attack civilian targets

[bushdog]

I feel that Hezbollah is a legitimate resistance group. In addition to fighting the occupation of Palestine, they do good community work for the areas that they have clout in. Though they are quite fundementalist, it somewhat reflects the religious feelings of the region.

On the subject of terrorism, i agree that this is a word that tossed around entirley to much. I live in the US and every election cycle the word "terrorist" gets thrown around to scare the shit of the stupid americans. I would hesitate to call anyone a terrorist, though i look down upon the killing of civilians (except Isreal). Any organization thats focus is to bring down a repressive or occupying power are definitly not terrorists. Therfore the rebels in iraq are not terrorists, but i would argue that according to

"A terrorist is a member of a group with a political aim. They try to achieve this aim by attacking civilian targets in the hope that the government will conform to their demands."

The united states government is a terrorist organization. Example, the US government placed an embargo upon iraq that killed approx. 500,000 civilians with the demand that saddam destroy non-existant wmds.

[Cokane]

Originally posted by seraphim+Apr 21 2005, 12:00 PM--> (seraphim @ Apr 21 2005, 12:00 PM)
[email protected] 20 2005, 08:43 PM
So would you call the IRA terrorists?
Yes because they attack or used to attack civilian targets [/b]
Well in a war with an army like Britain's, civilians are going to be killed, and the IRA has apoligised for the deaths of non-combatants, unlike the British, who have successfully portrayed this image of the IRA that you seem to accept without question. People forget the hundreds of British soldiers killed in Ireland by the IRA, instead they are seen as baby-killers.

And a word on ''Terrorism'', there is a saying in Ireland, ''Today's terrorists, tommorows heroes'', that's the view of almost everyone in the 26 county free-state. Are they terrorists if they liberate their country (or part of it)? Are they terrorists when a victory has been won? After a cause has been achieved they are rarely seen as terrorists, but as what they are: Freedom Fighters and Liberaters. So this trash you spew means nothing to anyone with an ounce of sense. There is another phrase that can be linked to this argument too, ''If treason succeeds, who would dare call it treason?''. Catch my drift?

[Redmau5]

I take it you support British imperialism ? Talking your bullshit about killing civilians. What you think the American and British are doing in Iraq ? Planting fucking daisys ? Theyve killed as many civilians as they have "terrorists".

Civilians get killed in wars. Get over it.

[Dark Exodus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 03:31 PM
And a word on ''Terrorism'', there is a saying in Ireland, ''Today's terrorists, tommorows heroes'', that's the view of almost everyone in the 26 county free-state. Are they terrorists if they liberate their country (or part of it)? Are they terrorists when a victory has been won? After a cause has been achieved they are rarely seen as terrorists, but as what they are: Freedom Fighters and Liberaters. So this trash you spew means nothing to anyone with an ounce of sense. There is another phrase that can be linked to this argument too, ''If treason succeeds, who would dare call it treason?''. Catch my drift?
Please read my post again. You seem to want to turn me into something you can easily argue against.

A point I failed to mention would be that Terrorists also seek media attention, they get this by attacking civilian targets.

[Reuben]

[/b]I would hesitate to call anyone a terrorist, though i look down upon the killing of civilians (except Isreal). Any organization thats focus is to bring down a repressive or occupying power are definitly not terrorists. [b]


except israel?
what does that mean. You oppose the killing of civilians except israelis? are isrealies second class civilians. Is the life of an israeli child or that of an israeli civilian who may or may not oppose the occupation, who may be jewish ruze, arab or bedouin somehow worth less than other civilians. You seem to have a somewhat confused of what the word terorist means (a word essentially concerned with the nature of a groups tactics) if you think that fighting for legiitimate ends (eg an end to the occupation) in itself makes it impossible for a groupto be classed as terrorist.
There is nothing revolutionary about targetting fellow workers...


There are two rather silly arguments that get thrown around when terrorism is discussed:

the first is that because the word terorism is misused (eg by bush and co) it is becomes meaningless. It is no meaningless and however much it is misused it is posisble to draw a line between legitimately targetting occupying soldiers and planting a bomb on a bus full of civiliasns or in the trafford center.

The second argument is that if a group has legitimate ends then they cannot be terrorist and we should uncritically support whichever tactics they use no matter who get hurt,

Both these arguments are ridiculous

[Cokane]

Thanks for reminding me of those arguments, i was almost forgetting, but do you care to say how they are ridiculous?

People can call Hezbollah and the IRA whatever the fuck they want, fact is they have mass support from their communities, who have a better understanding of their conflicts than anyone, so calling them terrorists does nothin to their support base. And no one asked you to ''uncritically'' support them, but a bit of understanding is too much to ask?

And Dark Exodus, me reading your post again will do sweet FA, you just left out that Paramilitary groups attack legitimate targets, and for some strange reason I should read your post?

[Dark Exodus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 05:06 PM
And Dark Exodus, me reading your post again will do sweet FA, you just left out that Paramilitary groups attack legitimate targets, and for some strange reason I should read your post?

People can call Hezbollah and the IRA whatever the fuck they want, fact is they have mass support from their communities, who have a better understanding of their conflicts than anyone, so calling them terrorists does nothin to their support base. And no one asked you to ''uncritically'' support them, but a bit of understanding is too much to ask?
I was giving a definition of what a terrorist is, since you seem to think it is simply someone who is a member of any military orginisation.

The communities will be massively bias in their view because of this experience, you really think that Palestinian civilians sypathise with the Isreali ones or vice versa?


Their will never be a reason to justify the purposeful killing of civilians, whether it is in the name of Freedom, Nationalism or Socialism.

[Cokane]

Who said anything about sympathising? Understanding and sympathy are different. And I unserstand that killing civilians is wrong, but it is just a bad consequence to war or revolution. If you are not going to kill for for what you believe in you are a very patient person. Peaceful revolutions are a very rare phenomenon. Maybe in an ideal world we can all dance in circles and give eachother flowers, but normally, people will die.

[Reuben]

read my post

i did iexplain why they are flawed.

I did notj ust list them

[bolshevik butcher]

I support the palistinean cause but not suicide bombings, or any other form of killing israeli civilians.

[Dark Exodus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 06:09 PM
Who said anything about sympathising? Understanding and sympathy are different. And I unserstand that killing civilians is wrong, but it is just a bad consequence to war or revolution. If you are not going to kill for for what you believe in you are a very patient person. Peaceful revolutions are a very rare phenomenon. Maybe in an ideal world we can all dance in circles and give eachother flowers, but normally, people will die.
Off course innocent people will die but that is not a reason to target them specifically.

[refuse_resist]

Here's the website to their television station.

http://www.manartv.com.lb/news.aspx?Language=en

[Phalanx]

Hezbullah is no more than a capitalistic fundamentalist religious organisation. They target Israeli civilians as well as the IDF. I don't believe that the leftists should support the far-right organizations of this world. They are our enemy, as well as the imperialistic powers of this planet.

[seraphim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 03:56 PM
I take it you support British imperialism ? Talking your bullshit about killing civilians. What you think the American and British are doing in Iraq ? Planting fucking daisys ? Theyve killed as many civilians as they have "terrorists".

Civilians get killed in wars. Get over it.
No I include the British and American forces as terrorists the IRA are no better you get over it

[SpeCtrE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 11:50 AM
I call them Islamic Fundamentalist Capitalists. More like terrorists in my view.
I couldn't put it more better.

Their name (HIZBUALLAH) also means Party of God.. typical reactionaries

[Commie Rat]

terrorists are a paramilitary of political group who use- fear or terror to incite change , weither you consider them a terrorist or not is weither you are scared of them Americans belive that Alquaeda { sry about the shit spelling} are terrorist because they live in fear of imminet attack, the people in say Saudi Arabia would not feel this way

[Redmau5]

Originally posted by Chinghis [email protected] 22 2005, 02:46 AM
They target Israeli civilians
Israeli civialians shouldn't be there in the first place. If they left, they would no longer be attacked.

[Reuben]

Originally posted by Makaveli_05+Apr 23 2005, 12:44 PM--> (Makaveli_05 @ Apr 23 2005, 12:44 PM)
Chinghis [email protected] 22 2005, 02:46 AM
They target Israeli civilians
Israeli civialians shouldn't be there in the first place. If they left, they would no longer be attacked. [/b]
surely as a socialist who i would presume supports open borders you would not argue that Israeli civilians are committing a (capital???) crime simply by living in Israel. Yes a proportion of them went over there as colonizers and the ethnic state that they deliberately sought to estalish should be dismantled. However a massive proportion went as refugees, Surely even if for wahtever odd reason you do not support the right of free movement you support the right of refugees to settle elsewhere.And what of those born in israel or those who are descended from the historic jewish community there... does their ethnicity/background make their residence in the place of their birth a capital crime... by this logic it is fine to low up every white australian or american regardless oftheir age, actions or political affiliations.

[viva le revolution]

Hizbullah is a sword sharp on both sides. First they are a religious group that are fighting purely to liberate themselves from occupation they have no sympathy for the socialist cause. iN This case it can be argued that they purely a reactionary force as most liberation movements are.
However they are fighting the imperialistt Americans and Israelis who are bent on expansionism. In fact Hezbullah itself calls them imperialists and colonizers.
In this case i go withe the rationale that the enemy of my enemy is my friend and choose the lesser of two evils. In this case i support Hizbullah.

[Commie Rat]

ditto
well untill the enemey of the enemy is dead then the enemy is the enemy
you get 2 gold stars if you understood that

[Anti-establishment]

I would support Hizbollah as far as the anti-israeli thing goes. But after that I find it hard to share a common ground, so for now, HIZBOLLAH! lol

[Shevek]

Hezbollah...not my favorite resistance group (that has to go to the CNT-FAI of the Spainish Revolution) in fact, they are one of the few groups that I hate the most. They may be against Israel, but if the rest of the arab nations just let Israel and Palestine settle thier differences without bloodshed, Hezbollah would not be needed.

Besides, on the very slim chance that Hezbollah is able to create an independent Palestine, what then? Hezbollah is just another group of muslim fanatics so Palestine would be where psuedo-socialist dictators rob the poor while religious cultists order women around, beat women, slaughter religious and political dissenters, etc. The only way to work this out is for both the Israelis and the Palestinians to forget all their personal grudges, and work things out.

Of course, forgeting grudges is something that people, nations, cultural nationalists, and religious fanatics are really bad at doing.

[viva le revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 04:18 AM


Besides, on the very slim chance that Hezbollah is able to create an independent Palestine, what then? Hezbollah is just another group of muslim fanatics so Palestine would be where psuedo-socialist dictators rob the poor while religious cultists order women around, beat women, slaughter religious and political dissenters, etc. The only way to work this out is for both the Israelis and the Palestinians to forget all their personal grudges, and work things out.

Of course, forgeting grudges is something that people, nations, cultural nationalists, and religious fanatics are really bad at doing.
If a Palestinian state is created i don't think Hizbullah will have the major role in it. That will have to go to Hamas and Islamic jihad. Hizbullah is only dominant in Lebanon, in Palestine, Hamas and islamic jihad rule the roost. However co-operation between the two is not out of the question. However, i feel that if a Palestinian state is established, obviously it will have an anti--israel, and anti-U.S stance but i doubt whether it will be islamic fundamentalist. Hezbollah and islamic jehad are islamic fundamentalist, but Hamas is made up of muslim and christian pakestinians. although muslims are in the majority. If a state is established it win;t be religious-fundamentalist but Arab-nationalist.

[Shevek]

So what if it is a group like Hamas or Islamic Jihad that controls Palestine. It'll both of these groups are Islamic fundamentalists and thus they will bring in the burkas.

Even if it is an arab nationalist group that controls Palestine, what then? Arab nationalism has been perverted by jackasses like Saddam Hussein, who have no love for anyone but themselves, into a totalitarian ideology used as a springboard for a few individuals to satisfy thier egos.

Just like socialism was perverted by Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin into Nazism and Stalinism, respectivly

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by Makaveli_05+Apr 23 2005, 12:44 PM--> (Makaveli_05 @ Apr 23 2005, 12:44 PM)
Chinghis [email protected] 22 2005, 02:46 AM
They target Israeli civilians
Israeli civialians shouldn't be there in the first place. If they left, they would no longer be attacked. [/b]
You're such an idiot. The vast majority of Israeli citizens have been born in Israel ( some 70%). Just because their parents moved there doesn't mean that they should go back to a country that isn't theirs. If your South African, apparently, if you're white, you should go back to the Netherlands or England, if your American, you should go back to Europe, if youre an Arab Moroccan, you should go back to Saudi Arabia or Iraq. There are many colonizers of the world, so please, don't make such an ignorant fucking statement again.

[Shaque]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 04:18 AM
Hezbollah...not my favorite resistance group (that has to go to the CNT-FAI of the Spainish Revolution) in fact, they are one of the few groups that I hate the most. They may be against Israel, but if the rest of the arab nations just let Israel and Palestine settle thier differences without bloodshed, Hezbollah would not be needed.

Besides, on the very slim chance that Hezbollah is able to create an independent Palestine, what then? Hezbollah is just another group of muslim fanatics so Palestine would be where psuedo-socialist dictators rob the poor while religious cultists order women around, beat women, slaughter religious and political dissenters, etc. The only way to work this out is for both the Israelis and the Palestinians to forget all their personal grudges, and work things out.

Of course, forgeting grudges is something that people, nations, cultural nationalists, and religious fanatics are really bad at doing.
You people are very confused and I need to clear a few things up.

Hizbollah is a political party. Its military wing is called the Islamic Resistance. People usually say Hizbollah to encompass both.

Hizbollah fights for the liberation of Lebanon. Its military wing successfully forced Israel to end its occupation of Lebanon, albiet the issue of the Shebaa Farms remains.

Hizbollah offers support to Palestinian groups resisting the Israeli occupation, however it denies giving any military or financial aid.

Most Lebanese, whether for the disarmament of Hizbollah or against it, abhor any referral to Hizbollah as terrorists.

Furthermore they are recognized by the Lebanese government and therefore have legitimacy.

[Black Dagger]

Hezbollah, like Hamas, are nut-jobs. They don't want a two-state solution, they don't want any kind of comprise, they want to eliminate israel and it's people, there's no room for a peaceful compromise with Hezbollah, they're no better than the IDF murderers.

[dso79]

It’s not surprising that they want to eliminate Israel, considering the crimes Israel committed in Lebanon. But comparing them to the IDF is ridiculous; Israel invaded and brutally occupied Lebanon, so Hizbullah had every right to resist them.

You may not agree with their political views, but there is no justification in calling them fundamentalists or terrorists.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 03:24 PM
It’s not surprising that they want to eliminate Israel, considering the crimes Israel committed in Lebanon. But comparing them to the IDF is ridiculous; Israel invaded and brutally occupied Lebanon, so Hizbullah had every right to resist them.

You may not agree with their political views, but there is no justification in calling them fundamentalists or terrorists.
Suicide bombing is terror. It is the delibreate targetting of non combatants that pose no threat.

[Intifada]

As far as I know, Hezbollah's suicide bombers only targeted the Israeli military.

I may be wrong.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 08:11 PM
As far as I know, Hezbollah's suicide bombers only targeted the Israeli military.

I may be wrong.
:unsure: , oh. But in the case of groups like hammass and islamicjihad this aplies.

[KR1Z4]

ok, i'll try to answer the "islamic capitalist fundementalist" thing:

leftist resistance was more active during the 70's with the Black September organisation, Syrian Social Nationalist Party, the Communist Party , The democratic Front and the Popular Front. Those were secular groups where christians and muslims were together fightin zionism and imperialism all over the world...it was a real international movement for the palestinian cause.

now, after the islamic revlution, hizbullah had big influence in lebanon between people cz they had a clear objective...fightin israeli occupation of south lebanon.

the leftist groups turned to the dirty game , politics, searchin for places in governments and forgettin the cause! so they dropped their arms.

now as for me, im against ppl grouped depending on their religion, and this is a big problem in lebanon. but when i look at those *fundementalist islamic* groups fightin against imperialism and this new world order in iraq or in palestine,i find that they r the only ones stil loyal to wt they were and they're continuing the struggle. so should i tell them "No, u r islamists, u r wrong!" while im doin nothin?
they r well organised ppl, PROFESSIONAL, and as for hizbullah they always try not to take sides in the lebanese internal politics so they stay as a "resistant party".

so till secular leftist groups do the job they should do, i say "i support hizbullah".

and for the "capitalist" hizbullah, i dnt think they r capitalist they way u see it. especially that islam, is "socialist" :P

[KR1Z4]

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 29 2005, 05:31 AM
Hezbollah, like Hamas, are nut-jobs. They don't want a two-state solution, they don't want any kind of comprise, they want to eliminate israel and it's people, there's no room for a peaceful compromise with Hezbollah, they're no better than the IDF murderers.
im not hizbullah, im not hamas, im not an islamic fundementalist, i dnt even believe in gods or God, i jst believe in myself, and still i got the same point of view.

if u call them nut-jobs, then what u call ur communist comrads in the 60's and 70's who fought against the israeli state knowin that "it's not a problem of borders but a matter of existence".

why u think in the 70's japanese red army went to make "suicide" bombings in tel aviv? a brainwashed islamic pervert told them to do that?

[Holocaustpulp]

Hezbollah represents an untrustworthy power, yet nonetheless somewhat commendable. It actively aids the poor citizens of Lebabon in its southern territory, has openly opposed the US imperialists aiding Israel and has boosted the Palestinian cause, and finally has reformed itself to became a politically tangible party, and not one that Bush or any other squemish bureaucrat can label plainly as "terrorist". However, I am against Hezbollah's connections to the autocratic governments of Syria and especially Iran (who betrayed the workers in the Islamic Revolution) as these countries provide the organization's financial base. Though I don't of the Islamic austerity Hezbollah pledges, I am warily supportive of it.

- HP

[KR1Z4]

However, I am against Hezbollah's connections to the autocratic governments of Syria and especially Iran

dont ppl need allies?