A new idea

[bed_of_nails]

I realize I am going to get this idea torn to shreds, and possibly a personal restriction if I am extremely unlucky, but I need help and ideas in pioneering my new thoughts and this is the only place I could think of for that help.

I am tired of the bickering and squabbling between every political group (Inluding the Commies) about what kind of rulership is right, and how we are going to achieve it.

I propose a possibly new plan, and possibly a new party, to move us forwards along the road to world enlightenment.

My theory is simple: do what the people need.

I realize that in most of the world, Communism is looked down upon as a heathenistic and evil way of accomplishing ones goals. What children are taught in their schoolbooks is that the USSR and all Communist countries are evil, and just want to put somebody in power then dominate the world.

My means of getting a representative into a political office in the United States will take a long period of time, but I believe it will eventually result in a peaceful transition to Humanitarianism, and then the United States (or what it would be after the transformation) would be a powerful ally in the true war against sorrow (Horrific phrase, I know, but I cant think of a better way to put it).

I believe that we as the Communist party should start organizing small works for the public in small towns. We must start small, with a tightly-knit group of people who have the same goals as we together try and alleviate the local ailments. We must not openly flaunt our political position, but we must make it clear that we are a group who intend to help people out.

The next step in the process would be to increase the scale of the idea. We would have the small communities supporting us after several years of community support and service, and the small towns would make excellent places to recruit for the cause of the world.

Once we have these new volunteers, we would need to take the plan to larger cities. We would be capable of organizing and accomplishing greater amounts of deeds, and attracting attention from the public for outstanding works for humanity.

Once we have accomplished this process several times over, gaining more and more support with every city we traveled to, it would be time to elect a representative into some sort of office. The representative does not need to be a Communist at all. We must get out of the mindset that seperates people into the groups of "Us" and "Them". To accomplish the goal of whiping out troubles such as poverty we must make the groupings "Us" and "Enemy" into "Humanity". We would put forth somebody who would run as a Communist, but be purely concerned with making the government work more to help the people.

Essentially my idea centers around the concept of winning the hearts and minds of the public through demonstration instead of words. The Fascist groups in America go around lynching minorities and commiting atrocities on television and they have earned the scorn of the majority of society. We must reverse this process and put forth a group that is out to make life worth living for everyone.

My concept still needs honing, and it will take many years to accomplish, but I see it as a better solution to the problems of humanity than sitting around a room screaming at eachother which party committed the worse crimes (None of us on these boards are above this either). I believe that a peaceful revolution is possible if we focus on making the world a kinder place for all.

[JazzRemington]

I think this is how the anarchists in the Spanish Revolution started out, by organizing the smaller towns first and then the bigger ones/cities.

The only problem I can see is that of trying to find a way to explain Marxism (or whatever poltiical theory) to them in a way that they can relate to it.

[redstar2000]

I doubt that you risk restriction for your post...at least I wouldn't vote for it at this point.

But you must realize that your proposal simply transforms communism into a charity...which would presumably be "better" at "good works" than bourgeois charities.

That's really not what "we're about".

So this thread is moved to Opposing Ideologies.

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[bed_of_nails]

I thank you for your kindness in moving this. I was not sure if I should post it in OI or politics.

I see charity as a means of getting recognized. We need to make it known that the Communist party isnt run by a group of people out to take away all your belongings and oppress you (As Americans are taught in school).

I want to organize and focus the Communist party into a spearhead for humanity. We need to set the example the world should follow, and we need to show the world it can work.

With America's unemployement level at slightly over seven-percent, more homeless people being put into their economic situation everyday, violence increasing due to poverty and a lack of education, and people trying to make the rest of the world like America, we need a party who has intentions set that will establish balance in America before corrupting the rest of the world.

If anyone has any ideas on how to hone my beliefs, please tell me. I am hoping to get some feedback and begin working to publish something along these lines.

[bed_of_nails]

Yes! That is what I believe! I want to take our movement to the streets, not by bashing the fascists face's in, but by showing people we truly are compassionate for those who need it! We must stop squabbling over if Stalin is better than Trotsky and we must show the people what we say.

[t_wolves_fan]

You sound very well-meaning and halfway intelligent, I have to say. That's a rarity on this forum.


I realize I am going to get this idea torn to shreds, and possibly a personal restriction if I am extremely unlucky, but I need help and ideas in pioneering my new thoughts and this is the only place I could think of for that help.

I am tired of the bickering and squabbling between every political group (Inluding the Commies) about what kind of rulership is right, and how we are going to achieve it.

I propose a possibly new plan, and possibly a new party, to move us forwards along the road to world enlightenment.

My theory is simple: do what the people need.

You basically provide the reason your theory is impractical in the second paragraph: There is little if any consensus possible even among small communities as to what it is that "people need".

This naiveté is the biggest problem with the posters on this board. Most of you think that "what the people need" is easy to figure out, and by golly you just happen to know what it is, and don't understand why anyone would have a problem with it. Such is the ignorance and arrogance of youth (I see you are but 15 years old) and immaturity.

This disagreement over "what the people need" is evident even on this board. You've got a bunch of people who think basically the same thing about politics and yet there is ferocious debate over exactly how each person's belief of "what the people need" would be implemented. Stalinist? Anarchist? Socialist? Even you folks can't agree, and you're but a small contingent on an anonymous internet message board.


My means of getting a representative into a political office in the United States will take a long period of time, but I believe it will eventually result in a peaceful transition to Humanitarianism, and then the United States (or what it would be after the transformation) would be a powerful ally in the true war against sorrow (Horrific phrase, I know, but I cant think of a better way to put it).

Your intentions are good but I wonder if you understand just how difficult a "war agaisnt sorrow" would be. There was a column in Sunday's Washington Post by a woman who worked as a volunteer nurse practitioner in some African country that is incredibly impoverished. In other words, this woman is probably not a Bush supporter and has probably done more to help the poor than you'll ever dream of. The article described how her work was incredibly frustrating because the people there saw aid workers as merely people who would hand out money, and they refused to change their lifestyle (i.e. getting tested for AIDs) to begin to help themselves out of poverty. The main point was that simply transferring wealth will do nothing, nothing to end poverty, and on this I believe she is correct. The reason it will do nothing to end poverty is that if you simply hand over wealth, people who do not understand how to use it will simply spend it and have nothing once they're done. It's the same thing that happens when a lottery winner ends up broke in 12 years because all he did was spend money assuming more would always come in the mail.

Yes, we can help and yes we can do more. I have a good friend who works for USAID - he's a good samaritain if I ever saw one. And he says the same thing. Our aid efforts are too small but at the same time when we get into a situation where we are writing checks we are hurting more than helping because we're not teaching people to WORK and to improve their lives.



Essentially my idea centers around the concept of winning the hearts and minds of the public through demonstration instead of words.

While I think your high-minded idealism is naive for the reasons I stated above, I am impressed with how you'd go about affecting change. You are hitting on the problem with today's left - there are no ideas coming from your side of the spectrum, only complaints. You offer not only ideas but presumably (if you are successful) evidence to back those ideas up.


The Fascist groups in America go around lynching minorities

Ummm, I don't believe there has been a lynching in quite some time and those who attack minorities are quickly punished and ridiculed.


My concept still needs honing, and it will take many years to accomplish, but I see it as a better solution to the problems of humanity than sitting around a room screaming at eachother which party committed the worse crimes (None of us on these boards are above this either). I believe that a peaceful revolution is possible if we focus on making the world a kinder place for all.

I wish you luck, but fear that as you grow up and experience the real world, you'll find out your ideals are extremely difficult if not impossible to translate into significant change in society. Of course that fact should never dissuade you from undertaking individual efforts.

[bushdog]

Yes i agree with you in your means(grassroot), afterall this is how the christian fanatics (here in the good lo' USA) managed to hijack my government. bastards.

[bed_of_nails]

I am impressed by your insight into my idea, t_wolves_fan, but not your mathematics. I am 17, not 15.

I do anticipate this will be very difficult to accomplish, but I believe that there needs to be a prominent party in America that is willing to do more than just sit around and complain about the standards. I do wish for a communist revolution. I also wish for it to be borne out of the will of the people, and I see this as an interesting way to achieve that goal. My intentions are not to pretend I am a humanitarian so I can achieve a political office, but use a political office so I can be a humanitarian.

[KC]

You basically provide the reason your theory is impractical in the second paragraph: There is little if any consensus possible even among small communities as to what it is that "people need".


"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Recognize that? When the founders of this nation sat down and wrote the constitution, they did exactly what you just said wasn't possible. They formed this government in the best interests of the people; according to what the "people need". Of course, when they did this, not many of them, if any of them, were in complete agreement; they had to compromise with one another.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 04:17 AM
I am impressed by your insight into my idea, t_wolves_fan, but not your mathematics. I am 17, not 15.

I do anticipate this will be very difficult to accomplish, but I believe that there needs to be a prominent party in America that is willing to do more than just sit around and complain about the standards. I do wish for a communist revolution. I also wish for it to be borne out of the will of the people, and I see this as an interesting way to achieve that goal. My intentions are not to pretend I am a humanitarian so I can achieve a political office, but use a political office so I can be a humanitarian.
That's what I get for posting before my morning coffee has had a chance to kick in.

I think there is a good chance you and I agree on exactly how the typical American or member of any society ought to behave. The part about which we disagree is whether government can enforce such behavior or not.

I would like to see a societal sea change away from greed, consumerism, consumption, "keeping up with the Jonses", etc. However, I do not see how it can be enforced by the government without trampling our individual rights.

I've been involved in a lot of charity work myself, and I've seen the burnout that can take place because as much as you want to help people, they also have to help themselves to get anywhere in life. The problem I see with communism as advocated by the folks on this board is that they seem to think everyone who needs it will magically figure out how to better their lives simply through a transfer of wealth.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan+--> (t_wolves_fan)The main point was that simply transferring wealth will do nothing, nothing to end poverty, and on this I believe she is correct. The reason it will do nothing to end poverty is that if you simply hand over wealth, people who do not understand how to use it will simply spend it and have nothing once they're done.[/b]

Oddly enough, the cappie is right about this. It's one of the reasons why communism cannot be a "mega-charity".

In a proletarian revolution, the working class is not the recipient of a "gift"...revolution is hard and dangerous work.

And it's work they must do themselves...we communists cannot do it "for them".


Originally posted by Karl [email protected]
The emancipation of the working class must be the work of the workers themselves.

Charity never changes anything.


t_wolves_fan
I don't believe there has been a lynching in quite some time and those who attack minorities are quickly punished and ridiculed.

Unless they are wearing police uniforms...in which case they receive promotions and raises.

True, they don't use ropes anymore...bullets are probably more cost-effective.

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[bed_of_nails]

I guess you are right, redstar2000. What is stopping people from using charity and good works to make it apparent that the communists are out to help people though? Look at what is going on in politics: You have two or more parties that sit around complaining that things arent going the way they want, and that people should change them. What if we were the people to make things better? What if we showed people that we Communists do not just sit around and complain about the upper-class, but actually try and make a difference?

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by bed_of_nails
What if we showed people that we Communists do not just sit around and complain about the upper-class, but actually try and make a difference?

The truth is that a small number of people can't "make a difference" in the sense that I think you're using that phrase.

If multi-million dollar charities don't make any difference, what are a small group of communists going to accomplish?

If communists became known for their charity work, what would follow from that?

Well, people would "like us" or even "admire us". And some of those who wanted to do charity work might even join us or give us money.

But nothing else would change.

Our job as communists is much harder than any kind of charity work: we need to teach our class how to think like communists.

Wow! Ain't that a real bastard of a job!

Going up against everything the working class has been taught by their parents, their schools, their churches, their bosses, the media, the government, etc., etc., etc.

Why do you think our critics call us "utopians"? Or just "crazies"?

And why do you think so many young communists "give up" after a few years of effort?

The job just looks "too enormous" to do.

And yet...decades of sustained effort sometimes pay off big time.

Recall the American abolitionists...say, around 1830 or 1835. A small, despised minority of people -- denounced by every "right-thinking" person as "fanatics" or "trouble-makers". Frequently jailed and/or beaten up; occasionally murdered.

But they kept at it, kept being "a royal pain in the ass", kept advancing their struggle to more and more militant defiance -- both in rhetoric and in deeds.

And people began to listen...and to learn.

When General Lee's ragtag army of slaveowners and fools surrendered, the abolitionists had made a real difference -- the end of slavery in North America.

It took about 3-1/2 decades for them to accomplish what no charity has ever done...or ever will do.

It also cost over 600,000 lives -- I told you that revolution is hard and dangerous work.

By contemporary accounts, the ex-slaves thought it was worth it.

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[synthesis]

The only thing that will actually better the conditions of the poor and exploited is radical change. There is no way an elected representative to a capitalist government is going to accomplish anything other than shaking the table a little more, so that more crumbs fall to the ground.

Now if the bourgeoisie recognizes the intentions - and the possibility of realizing those intentions - of this "front" group, it is going to try its damndest to destroy it, no matter what it takes.

To give you an example, the militant, violent aspect of the Black Panthers has been permanently engrained into the American mindframe, mostly because of the media - even though a great deal of their most significant and far-reaching work was in areas like community breakfasts, education, and gardening. Even the peaceful side of the Black Panthers was infiltrated and attacked by COINTELPRO agents, and now its existence has been forgotten entirely.

Personally, I also think your whole "PR" scheme is quite faulty. Obviously, a volunteer organization is going to depend on the funds it can raise in order to merely function. At some level, people are going to start to think "Wait - these Communists are supposed to be struggling to survive, where did all this money come from?" The very fact that we are organizing Communist sympathizers to donate money to be redistributed is an assault on our credibility.

Now, you could say that the organizing doesn't have to be done under the banner of Communism, to which I would respond by saying that your thread title is no longer valid - the idea of a grassroots movement with ties to bourgeois elections is hardly "new".

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 02:48 AM
I guess you are right, redstar2000. What is stopping people from using charity and good works to make it apparent that the communists are out to help people though? Look at what is going on in politics: You have two or more parties that sit around complaining that things arent going the way they want, and that people should change them. What if we were the people to make things better? What if we showed people that we Communists do not just sit around and complain about the upper-class, but actually try and make a difference?
You're showing critical thinking skills that tell me you won't be a communist for very long.

The problem with the "communist" or "radical" movement is that it's trying to make change not through the methods you advocate - actually doing good works - but through blame, coercion, violence against people and property, and so on.

Your movement is never going to get anywhere breaking windows at Starbucks and McDonald's, trying to tear down fences and attacking police at inaugurals or World Bank meetings, or consistently telling people the system they live in is awful and corrupt. Successful revolutions have supported people and advocated for a better way. The "communist", college-aged angry-at-my-parents-let's-go-break-stuff-Bush-is-Hitler movement turns off 5 people for every 1 person it converts because nobody takes it seriously.

Think of it this way: Yes, it is unfortunate that many immigrants and the poor work for poor wages and no benefits at Starbucks and McDonald's. But exactly how are you helping them in the short term by trying to shut their only employer down?

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan
The problem with the "communist" or "radical" movement is that it's trying to make change not through the methods you advocate - actually doing good works - but through blame, coercion, violence against people and property, and so on.

Ah, the bourgeoisie have such short memories.

Go back to the 17th and 18th and 19th centuries when the rising bourgeoisie were struggling against royalty, nobility, aristocracy, etc.

What did they do then?

Hint: it wasn't non-violent "good works".

Oh, they tried that approach from time to time...but they discovered that cutting off a king's head was a lot more effective.

After a while, the mere threat of such an outcome was sometimes sufficient to persuade the old aristocracy to gracefully retire from the scene.


Your movement is never going to get anywhere breaking windows at Starbucks and McDonald's, trying to tear down fences and attacking police at inaugurals or World Bank meetings, or consistently telling people the system they live in is awful and corrupt.

True, this is but the smallest of beginnings and needs to increase by many orders of magnitude before revolution becomes a realistic possibility.

To bourgeois ideologues, this is a nightmare that "cannot happen" or "cannot be allowed to happen".

It would turn the whole world "upside down". :D

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