How to challenge Capitalism?

[OleMarxco]

Communism, as we know it, is atleast more ETHICAL superior to Capitalism. Perhaps this will be too much capitalistic thinking, BUT..... It's the workers system, not the consumers or the bosses - with the ACTUAL producers in charge. But how can it challenge Capitalism on the term "effectivism", when that's sort the Capitalism "home ground" - And as we all know, defeating a team on it's home ground is rather hard. So. How do you propose we solve this. Coupling income, economy etc. with still keeping workers in charge to decide what's best for society and the envirnoment. Or perhaps to do as Marx proposes: Abolishes money all togheter so we could stop worrying about this and like that - and just ship the goddamn goods around for "free" (alternatively paying with labor?). Hm? Ponder, ponder, but is there an answer? :unsure:

[NovelGentry]

I recommend (as always) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/6579/

[Karl Marx's Camel]

How to challenge Capitalism?

Broadband.

You can buy a broadband and post "revolutionary information" all over the internet!

Or, you can buy a punching bag, paint "CRAPITALISM" all over the bag, and start punching it!

It'll cost you some cash, and the money will go to £vil corporation, but it'll be worth it!

Crush CRAPITALI$M!

[OleMarxco]

That sounds a bit contradicting ;)
NovelGentry: Why not come up with your OWN arguments instead of linkin' to others?
I didn't ask that site, I asked this forum.

[Francisco Celine]

The best way to convince people is always a demostartion. Let's face it common sense says socialism has been proved wrong by the failure of the USSR.

We have to prove somehow this is not true. Creating a "shining city on the hill" of socialism for all nations to see is in my view is the only way we can over come the myth that socialism=authotarian.

[OleMarxco]

Do you suggest a "freetown", not unlike one such as the one in 'Christiania', Denmark? ;)

[Abstrakt]

As I see it, lead by example. That's really all we can do right? I mean, preaching usually doesn't go anywhere, unless you are asked, or something to that extent. I don't know where I'm going with this.

[Social Greenman]

NovelGentry posted a link which there was a section on labor-time certificates. Considering that most transactions are now done by computers I recomend that a new economic system model should replace capital. Software can be created with this:
http://www.deleonism.org/v1.htm

Time Labor Vouchers (I prefer to call them Time Labor Credit Units) would replace greenbacks, silver and gold as currency since labor creates social wealth. Banks and other finacial institution would no longer be necessary including the stock market. This would destroy the ability of capitalist to undermine the new society since they would no longer have capital wealth to fund insurgentcies to take back the means of production as they did in the U.S.S.R.. In essence, there would be no dictatorship of the proletariat since all would be proletariat. The capitalist (now proletariat) would either work or starve.

I believe that a new economic model would add to the present class struggle if the working class can become aware of it.

Social

[OleMarxco]

I think I can now see clearly: I have stopped thinking in capital, but instead of results. And I see know: Why do we need all that focus about profits, income and economy, when we can only concentrate about maintaining the results, the things we REALLY need. Money is useless. The products are not.

[Social Greenman]

I wish that it was that simple and money being eliminated altogether but in a post capitalist society not all are socialist. I believe most will be confused. Therefore TLV's would serve as something people can reconise since in a sense it acts like money--which it is not. Not only that, society would not be amorphous. That is why I advocate for TLV"s as a new economic model.

Social

[enigma2517]

I thought that communism was supposed to be a gift economy? Maybe I'm not understanding something but why are this TLV's necessary and what makes them so much different from money? Also, please inform me on who decides what they're "worth".

[NovelGentry]

NovelGentry posted a link which there was a section on labor-time certificates. Considering that most transactions are now done by computers I recomend that a new economic system model should replace capital. Software can be created with this:
http://www.deleonism.org/v1.htm

Time Labor Vouchers (I prefer to call them Time Labor Credit Units) would replace greenbacks, silver and gold as currency since labor creates social wealth. Banks and other finacial institution would no longer be necessary including the stock market. This would destroy the ability of capitalist to undermine the new society since they would no longer have capital wealth to fund insurgentcies to take back the means of production as they did in the U.S.S.R.. In essence, there would be no dictatorship of the proletariat since all would be proletariat. The capitalist (now proletariat) would either work or starve.

I believe that a new economic model would add to the present class struggle if the working class can become aware of it.

Social

The link is not just about labor-time certificates. It is an entire economic system from socialism -> communism which uses the average social hour of labor. The only reason I included it is because he hopped on the issue of economic challenge.

I agree these calculations can be done with computers, in fact, I was thinking of writing a piece of software that would cycle with a database and express the entire life of product reproduction, social consumtion, and individual consumption.... although I've got a lot of other stuff on my plate right now.

The link has some very similar aspects in terms of calculation to what you have provided, although your link seems to adjust "price" as well. I only took a quick glimpse, so what you presented may not succumb to this, but the price must always be expressed in the original labor time required to make it -- no renumeration of this is necessary. Instead, what my link proposes is that productions which have achieved a state where socialized distribution can occur should be removed from the distributable labour time which is put in by such places which create these products and means.

What you are left with is then less to distribute individually, however, objectively speaking, you still divide equally amongst the producers, and thus the social products are already given equal "taxation" if you will from their individual labor. Over time the number of products, once means of produciton has advanced and their production is proven stable, can be pushed into the social sphere. In the end, there is no more individual pay out, and all productions have been pushed into this social sphere.

Again, this might also be what the link you're proposing shows, however, from a quick glance it seems far more complex than this has to be.

But as I did note, the principles on which the link I provided is based can easily be computerized and brought up to modern day. With individual "pay" distributed via a central credit system managed and overseen directly in the hands of the federated workers.

[Totalitarian Militant]

I believe the only way for true communism to work is to be nationalistic in such a way, that everyone would be willing to work for each other and contribute to the country as a whole. In return, they will be taken care of.

It is tough though, because as you can see, parts of Chinas Eastern half has more of a free market and theyre flourishing.

[NovelGentry]

I wish that it was that simple and money being eliminated altogether but in a post capitalist society not all are socialist. I believe most will be confused. Therefore TLV's would serve as something people can reconise since in a sense it acts like money--which it is not. Not only that, society would not be amorphous. That is why I advocate for TLV"s as a new economic model.

Agreed, but any institutions established to uphold elements of currency etc, should look to be abolished as soon as possible. The link I provided has an easy and efficient means to do this which is already a part of the process of calculating individual pay and what is removed for general social consumption.

[NovelGentry]

I thought that communism was supposed to be a gift economy? Maybe I'm not understanding something but why are this TLV's necessary and what makes them so much different from money? Also, please inform me on who decides what they're "worth".

Communism is a gift economy, but socialism is not, and should not be.

The point of the average social hour of labor and time labor values as expressed in the link I provided is one which can gradually, but always objectively, shift the economy towards communism while maintaining stable production and consumption.

The credits which the worker receives are based objectively on how much labor that worker has inputted into the production of goods. These credits are different from money primarily in that they do not circulate. They are not for general trade, nor are they in a position to buy up the social product. It ensures 1 to 1 production and consumption by relating the objective value of a person's labor (time) with how much of the products for individual consumption one is able to acquire, also expressed in terms of time.

In my link they present an example where a pair of shoes is determined to be worth 3.25 hours of labor. This is inclusive of ALL the labor that went into the shoe, not just the final production. They also make an example, removing labor time for the GSU (that labor which is consumed socially and freely -- i.e. education, medical service, etc) that the workers pay would be set at .83 hours per hour. Again, the reason it is lower is because a percentage of the labor is directed towards social services, usable and consumable by all. So one would have to work approximately 3.9 hours in order to afford a pair of shoes.

This example is a bit rudementary, and was used, no doubt using the productive means of 1930. Where this system, however, works better than other proposed systems where labor value is subjective (determined by a central committee or state mechanism) is that as the means of production advances, the necessary labor is driven down. Thus there is no labor which is produced which cannot be directly consumed in that 1 to 1 ratio. In the case of something like the USSR, payment could be fixed, despite huge advancements in the means of production. This shows that exploitation is occuring, it is essentially what differentiates state capitalism from any natural socialist economics.

As I said before, as more products shift towards social consumption rather than calculated individual consumption, the system effectively wipes itself out. Your individual pay becomes less and less, but only in correspondence with more and more social products becoming available. That is to say, where you once "bought" shoes, or acquired them from your individual credit, it is now possible simply to acquire them freely.

This does two things. Firstly, it weens us off capitalism easily. Different regions of the world can progress as quickly or as slowly as they see fit, removing the social labor from that region and distributing those products socially within that region.

This obviously stops the argument that capitalists come up with "the minute everything is free people will just grab shit." Instead, things slowly become socially distributed, consumer responsibility as well as producer responsibility is ensured. If less labor is put in to the social product, less labor time is removed from the final renumerated pay of the individual. Thus the system maintains 100% flexibility and stability, while staying in the hands of the workers. Rather, it is not in anyones hands, but it is simple objective calculations which no one can dispute. All members of society can clearly see and understand where their labor time goes, etc.

[NovelGentry]

More critical look at the link you provided, Social, shows some of the common misconceptions of what is not possible and the foolishness involved in such complex systems. For example it notes:


The human labor time incurred in each production step is measured where feasible, and estimated where necessary. The time incurred by intermediate products is added to the time incurred by subsequent steps. Each quantified final product or service u (kilogram of a mineral, joule of electrical energy, etc.) represents work time performed through q steps:

The labor time incurred in each production step is ALWAYS feasible to measure.

As the link I provided shows, if you take a general formula of:

(p + c) + L = product value

Where p is the cost of means of production (I think they use that for that), (c is cost of materials), and L is labor time at that individual step, the product value is then passed on and becomes a component in the next step. For example, in the production of a steel rod. Between the steps of refining and molding the rod you can see that the product value of the refined steal would become a portion of the product value produced by those molding the rod, as it would be a portion of the necessary materials.

When you get to the final product, all material costs, labor time put into the means of production itself (which too is a product) and labor for the product in full have been accounted for.

These numbers obviously get progressively larger as the product develops, starting from the raw material itself (for example, iron ore) where c would be 0. p would be the cost of the tools and machinery used to mine the iron ore. All initial costs of means of production "inheretted" from capitalism could be assumed 0, and thus, only upon an initial reproductive cycle of these means to we fulfill our real objectives.

It's difficult to follow exactly what's going on in the link -- they're using shitty variable names, and again, it's far more complex than it seems to need to be. Although in essence it is much of the same of what I propose, minus that first unnecessary complexity, and minus the adjusted product price. Unless they are inversing the renumeration (that is to say adjusting the product up rather than adjusting the pay down).

[Social Greenman]

Thank you NoelGentry for your reply. I have to take the time to read the link you provided. I was not trying to come off as in support of just one economic model because there is two more besides the link I provided and I have booked marked your link as well:
http://www.ithacahours.com/
http://www.zmag.org/parecon/indexnew.htm


Unless they are inversing the renumeration (that is to say adjusting the product up rather than adjusting the pay down).

It is adjusting the product up: 7. FIRST PRODUCT PRICE ADJUSTMENT

Since the time credited to all individuals in the population exceeds the time incurred by all individuals, the prices of all individual use products must be increased by a "common price adjustment factor":

CPAF1 = 1 / ITAF = t_cr / t_inc > 1
(dimensionless ratio)

Illustrative example: If premium compensation for strenuous work has resulted in individual crediting of 15 million hours, where 12 million hours have actually been incurred, normalization requires the prices of individually-charged products to be increased by the multiplier 15/12 = 1.25

NoelGentry, perhaps comparing notes with the author of TLV just may be a good idea. I often correspond with him and I see from what you wrote and what he wrote to be very similar.
http://www.deleonism.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24

Social

[NovelGentry]

Thank you NoelGentry for your reply. I have to take the time to read the link you provided. I was not trying to come off as in support of just one economic model because there is two more besides the link I provided and I have booked marked your link as well:
http://www.ithacahours.com/
http://www.zmag.org/parecon/indexnew.htm

No doubt. Just pointing out some of the common "flaws" in other socialist economics that is overcome by the model that paper presents. Much of the paper is devoted to pointing out these issues, so when you read it you'll get a good grasp.


It is adjusting the product up: 7. FIRST PRODUCT PRICE ADJUSTMENT

Since the time credited to all individuals in the population exceeds the time incurred by all individuals, the prices of all individual use products must be increased by a "common price adjustment factor":

CPAF1 = 1 / ITAF = t_cr / t_inc > 1
(dimensionless ratio)

Illustrative example: If premium compensation for strenuous work has resulted in individual crediting of 15 million hours, where 12 million hours have actually been incurred, normalization requires the prices of individually-charged products to be increased by the multiplier 15/12 = 1.25

The average social hour of labor is is what makes product price not necessary to adjust. Really, if pay renumeration is going to be a factor it should be incurred around the price, rather than outside of the price and then adjusted. If you don't do this, you've lost some of the objectiveness to it. (Unless again I'm not understanding the case here).

In the link I presented, an average social hour of labor is taken to be the price. That is to say, for example, if 50% of the shoes in the total took 3 hours to make (which on itself would be a factory average) and another 50% took 3.5, the average social hour would be 3.25. Within factories th deviation from their local average social hour can be used as incentive for those to work harder -- Create a ration of how many shoes produced to how much time for each worker, and look at it's deviation from the average, then shift that there. But again, only using the factory average.

Crediting outside of the factory doesn't make a lot of sense. If a single factory produces more than another it may very well be because they have better machines, etc. Because this is not easily or cleanly determined it should probably be left out.


NoelGentry, perhaps comparing notes with the author of TLV just may be a good idea. I often correspond with him and I see from what you wrote and what he wrote to be very similar.

Not what I wrote... just something I really admire in terms of economic works. The original writer was from Germany if I'm not mistaken, and much of the changes and finalization came from a group of communists.