Fidel

[SpeCtrE]

Nice to see rev left back online.

I was reading Fidel's Biography, ( I will post the details of the book later). And, in there it says that Fidel, while eating dinner with some close friends he said that he plans on sending Che to the dominican republic, to fight against the dictator Trujillo, where hopefully he would lose his life in there and to send Raul, his brother as a sort of roaming ambassador to Europe... sort of keeping him away from Home.

it is known that che and raul were the only Marxists in the ruling Cirlce of the revolution. Fidel wasn't ( or didn't admit ) that he was a communist until much later, Camillio wasn't a Marxist too..

Could this be the early signs of the dictator Fidel. :angry:

[viva le revolution]

Don't believe that bullshit! It is just another imperialist lie. The united states and it's lapdog Britain cannot stand the fact that Cuba is still standing and socialism is still alive and well there. It is well known that Che was one of Fidel's most trusted friends. The assassinator's of this great revolutionary are just trying to sow discord. God knows they have tried everything else from embargoes to direct invasion. The tool of the imperialism, the united nations also continually condemns cubas human rights record although there hasn't been a single verified case of torture there since 1959. However abu ghraib and Guantanamo bay are well known, but ....surprise....no one condemns the united states' human rights record.
This is just another pathetic lie spewed forth by the imperalist jackals.

[Fidelbrand]

What's the title of the book?

[bolshevik butcher]

Is fidel a dcotator or not? Half the people on this site think he is and half seem to disagree.

[SpeCtrE]

The title of the book is Fidel; a biography. the author is called Thomas Leonard.

You know, not only I am sick, but I am also tired of those accusations. Everytime someone comes up with an accusation it's got to be Fidel.. he has got milions , he had che killed, he spends the money of the people...etc. That got me thinking that how come no one accused all the others communists of being like that..I never heard any defamation against Mao, Marx, Louxumberg, Che, Raul ( his Brother), Camillo, Lenin, Marx, Engles...etc.( Forgive me for not mentioning Stalin, that is because I don't consider him as a revolutionary.)
Maybe there is an element of truth in those accusations... Of all the lies, one has got to be true.

[LSD]

You've never read any critisisms of Lenin!? :blink:

...or Mao?!?

Wow, I could write a treatise on what was wrong with both Mao and Lenin.... I know for a fact that there are many other members of this site who could do so as well.

[KuliNeMeL]

yep and there's a lot of criticism about Che also...

[bolshevik butcher]

I have attacked mao a few of times, and the history section is littered with attacks on stalin, who i don't consider communist either. Lenin is regularly attacked as well.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 01:00 AM
The title of the book is Fidel; a biography. the author is called Thomas Leonard.

You know, not only I am sick, but I am also tired of those accusations.
Me too. I'm also sick and tired of those who keep repeating them.


That got me thinking that how come no one accused all the others communists of being like that..I never heard any defamation against Mao, Marx, Louxumberg, Che, Raul ( his Brother), Camillo, Lenin, Marx, Engles...etc.( Forgive me for not mentioning Stalin, that is because I don't consider him as a revolutionary.)

Oh, on the contrary. For example, Lenin and the whole Bolshevik party were accused of being paid agents of the Kaiser. Documents were forged to "prove" it. Some "historians" still push this line.

And of course Trotsky and the Left Opposition were accused of...the same thing, being paid agents of Germany.

The German Social Democrats put out some vicious anti-Semitic crap about Rosa Luxemburg to justify murdering her.

I could go on. All revolutionaries are viciously slandered by the ruling class. As Fidel has said, he would worry if the ruling class didn't attack him, that would mean he'd sold out.

It is, of course, living revolutionaries and ongoing revolutions, like Cuba's, which are the biggest targets, since they're the biggest threats to the ruling rich. In addition to the slanders you've mentioned, Washington has claimed that Cuba is developing biological weapons, that it is promoting drug smuggling, and that prostitution, even sexual slavery, are promoted by the state.


Maybe there is an element of truth in those accusations... Of all the lies, one has got to be true.

That makes no sense, but slanderers know some people will think this way, which is why they keep generating more and more accusations, and repeating them endlessly, regardless of the truth.

And of course it takes a lot less work to create a slander than to refute one, or as Mark Twain once said "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes."

Here's a thread where I've previously refuted the accusations about Fidel somehow betraying Che. (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=1227&st=40)

Another thread where the issue was debated. (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=32414)

[LaVictoria]

I've heard a lot of those things, that Fidel 'killed' Che, that Fidel is 'evil'. It's just propaganda to show how 'bad' Fidel is...
Like Vive le Revolution said, that are all lies. Che and Fidel did disagree about the Sovjet, but they talked about it and they stayed comrads untill the end. (Read farewell letter to Fidel)

[Colombia]

Castro always had fews to the left back to his college days when he affiliated himself with groups of the left.

[SpeCtrE]

I did not mean that I haven't heard an accusation of all the others. Let's see..I remember Che being accused of being a homosexual... Infact, some of my friends still push it.

I also have heard of Mao get accused of not taking a shower and being a sex maniac..

But I never believed those things were true. Only because I knew these men accomplished something much more that the pathetic lies they were being accused of.

But when it comes to Fidel,it is entirely different. Here are some things he is accused of.

1. Having a hand in Che's death, with a small help from a shit of a man called Mario Monje.
2.Spending the Peoples money.... Being a millionaire.

Fidel, since he is the only communist, this is an insult.. But, is there anyone here who can prove that those are only fabrications and a mere distortion of facts.

[SpeCtrE]

Well,I know those accusations came out of a mainstream Capitalist media... They could be lies, but they MIGHT also be true.

[Severian]

No, they are in fact lies. They have been disproved in detail. Read the threads I linked, and if that's not enough, the sources I link and mention in those threads.

[Fidelbrand]

No matter what, historic bygones and mistakes provide no suffcient ground for the disgarding of the a good theory just because it was practiced badly.

It's just like the macro concept of "good". People can use this cocnept and come up and "n" variations and use a whole wide range of means to achieve "the good".

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I think it would be more exciting to see some 'real' debate, instead of just complaining about "imperialist lies". Realpolitik is a dirty business. It could just be that it is the truth (or at least hold some truth). Who knows?

[RedLenin]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 17 2005, 12:41 PM
Is fidel a dcotator or not? Half the people on this site think he is and half seem to disagree.
I believe so. He seems to have ultimate power and Cuba is lacking the democratic participation of the masses. Sadly, Cuba is a stalinist dictatorship. Maybe a less oppressive one then, say, North Korea, but Stalinist non-the-less.

[Matthew The Great]

If Cuba were a nationstates country it would be a "Father Knows Best State".

[bolshevik butcher]

can't help but get that fealing. :(

[SpeCtrE]

Classifying someone as a dictator or a non-dictator is entirely subjective. If I say something like Fidel is not a dictator and cobra90x disagrees with me, we both are right to an extent that we are being subjective and are judging Fidel entirely through how we perceive him.

So, the Question of whether Fidel is a dictator or not, I can only tell you to decide yourself. But try to be as objective as possible, because the more you know of the man, the closer you will be to the truth.

[RedStarOverChina]

Something to brag about :D :
a close friend to my family, a Chinese diplomat has met Castro 2 times... according to our friend he was extrenely nice and peaceful: he would smile while holding ur hand and ask u how are u and such.

[SpeCtrE]

Just one question.

Did the Diplomat friend of yours bring some Cuban Cigars?

[RedStarOverChina]

I donno but I did when i went to Cuba last Chrismas...bought them for about 8 pesos each. U can only bring something like 24 of them out of Cuba. or 21, i dont remember. But when we came back to Canada, we were told that each of them are worth no less than 100 dollars Canadian :lol:

[SpeCtrE]

Damn, I wish I had some of that over here.

[Matthew The Great]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 06:36 AM
Something to brag about :D :
a close friend to my family, a Chinese diplomat has met Castro 2 times... according to our friend he was extrenely nice and peaceful: he would smile while holding ur hand and ask u how are u and such.
Nothing against Castro or anything, but big deal.

Every good politician shakes hands and is friendly with their people. Those tools Bush and Kerry did it about a billion times each last November. It is nothing really special that a politician acts nice, but smart.

[RedStarOverChina]

yeah of course. I know that. but i just find it interesting cause i always thought that friend of ours was wise. But even she was influenced by Fidels "affection". Fascinating guy.

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by SpeCtrE
it is known that che and raul were the only Marxists in the ruling Cirlce of the revolution. Fidel wasn't ( or didn't admit ) that he was a communist until much later, Camillio wasn't a Marxist too..
I'll take you through two scenarios...

Scenario One:
Revolutionary: "I follow the Jeffersonian idealogy and I'm leading a revolution against an oppressive government!"
The US (To the Revolutionary) : "We commend your bravery."

Scenario Two:
Revolutionary: "I'm a Marxist-Leninist and I intend to lead a revolution against an oppressive government."
The US (To the oppressive government): "Do you need any help?"

Fidel Castro was a genius in my opinion. He shielded his real ambitions to gain momentary US approval in order to avoid an immediate attack. After Castro's party gained control of Cuba, that's when their leader announced he was a Marxist-Leninist.

[chebol]

The question of whether Fidel is a dictator or not is not going to be resolved by just thinking up ideas about Fidel. You need to examine the democratic process in Cuba to understand Fidel's role.

Once you appreciate the degree of control the Cuban people have over their own fate, the ludicrous "issue" of Fidel-as-dictator falls off the edge of the useful discussions you can have.

A particularly useful book (and quite recent) that covers this and other aspects of Cuba's governance- often quite critically, yet honestly-is "Cuba- A Revolution in Motion" by Isaac Saney. Check it out. (It also covers trade unions, the resurgence of poverty, racism, homophobia and sexism during the 'special period' and how they are being overcome, the legal system, and more).

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I was reading Fidel's Biography, ( I will post the details of the book later). And, in there it says that Fidel, while eating dinner with some close friends he said that he plans on sending Che to the dominican republic, to fight against the dictator Trujillo

I do not know if this will solve the "mystery", but Fidel joined a group who were going of to the Dominican Republic, to figh Trujillo. They were caught in a boat and sent back to Cuba.

[Amusing Scrotum]

in there it says that Fidel, while eating dinner with some close friends he said that he plans on sending Che to the dominican republic, to fight against the dictator Trujillo

Couldn't comment on the Dominican expeditions directly, but, alot of these ideas of Fidel wanting Che to go to another country were true.
You see, from what I know, Che was pretty much hellbent on leading a revolution in Argentina. Fidel quite rightly feared that Che would get killed in Argentina, mainly because the Argentinian military was very strong.
So Fidel tried to find other options for Che. You see after the publication of Che's resignation whilst he was in the Congo. Che felt it would be dishounorable to return to Cuba after his letter was published. So Fidel offered Che to a variety of Communists all over Latin America, many of whom disliked Che due to his condemnation of the Soviet Union. Finally Bolivia was agreed upon by Che and the Communists and we all know what happened in Bolivia.
In essence Fidel's plan to protect his friend failed, not because Fidel wanted it to fail, but because the Bolivian affair was in truth, like the expidition in the Congo, a fiasco.
I think Che's own words best express his relationship with Fidel, "With Fidel, neither Marriage nor Divorce."
Also remember Che was the only person Fidel didn't get angry with, personally I believe Fidel had great love and admiration for Che. Dispite their differences.

[closetcommie]

Originally posted by viva le [email protected] 17 2005, 10:56 AM
It is just another imperialist lie. The united states and it's lapdog Britain cannot stand the fact that Cuba is still standing and socialism is still alive and well there.
Absolutely. The fact that Cuba has survived these many decades despite the US choking off international capital is proof that socialism works -- a gospel that is the real thing the US/UK want to kill. We can't believe everything coming from the White House -- Bush, in the last year, starting calling Cuba and Venezuela "havens for the sex trade of children and women. Is that because it's true, or because Bush Inc. wants us all to hate Castro, Cuba, Chavez, and Ven.?

To believe everything coming out from Washington about communists is to disbelieve that the US government is capable of propaganda. Bush often smirks so much when he's giving a speech, I often wonder if he's really thinking "I can't believe these suckers are really believing what I'm saying."

[Marxist]

This topic turned out to some brutal dictator-non dictator cirticism ;)
But thats not my point like vive la revolutin said its bullshit all!

[jaytone11]

According to John Lee Anderson
Fidel on numoreous occasion asked Che to return to Cuba while he was in africa which he denied, he must have been fearful for che's life

[red_orchestra]

Canada still has a good relationship with Castro and the Cuban people. He still is a guest of honor in parlament when he decides to travel North. In my opinion Fidel is a genius...and has out smarted the FBI/CIA many times over.

[*Hippie*]

I love Fidel. I wish I could give him a big hug.

[Colombia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 04:08 AM
Absolutely. The fact that Cuba has survived these many decades despite the US choking off international capital is proof that socialism works -- a gospel that is the real thing the US/UK want to kill.
I agree with everything you say except the fact of Cuba being socialist. As much good as the Cuban government has done for the people, it is still a one party state that owns nearly all forms of business and allows for little representation of the minority.

The fact that Cuba is also a 3rd world nation should strenthen the idea that cuba cannot achieve socialism because it has failed to industrialize.

[Ander]

My mom met Fidel Castro in the 80's.

[HoorayForTheRedBlackandGreen]

Is a Father Knows Best states benevolent dictatorship? I alternate between liberal democratic socialist and left-wing utopia.

I think Castro is better than Bush at any rate. Chavez is just cool. I don't think he's done anything bad.

[chebol]

*Hippie* said:
"I love Fidel. I wish I could give him a big hug."

Done. Albeit 2 months in retrospect. ;)

[metalero]

As much good as the Cuban government has done for the people, it is still a one party state that owns nearly all forms of business and allows for little representation of the minority

The party does not own nearly all forms of business, as you point out, it is the State that does as it's said in the socialist constitution; besides many reforms were passed during the "special period" that allowed more foreign investment, however the means of production are still in the hands of the cuban people.

Can i ask u, what kind of minority are u refering to? racial, etnical and even religious minorities have the representation and respect in socialist cuba they never had before nor they have in other latinamerican countries. If you refer to the "opposition to the regime" created by the U.S. interest section in La Havana, it is ilegal for any cuban to receive funding from a country that's been waging terrorism on cuba for decades. Remember, Cuba doesn't have a burguois liberal political system on which democracy is only expressed through representatives in a parlamentary body.

"But what is it that makes Cuba’s system so democratic?

First of all, the Cuban people themselves meet and nominate candidates, and anyone can be selected, including non-members of the PCC (Cuban Communist Party). Most who are selected are workers or peasants, or students who are children of workers or peasants. As Ricardo Alarcón, president of Cuba's parliament explains, "In other words, everyone within society can nominate whoever they want, and then make up their own minds." Tellingly, although the PCC presents no lists or candidates, over three quarters of successful candidates are party members.
Secondly, campaigns – which in capitalist “democracies” consist of rich politicians and their friends spending huge sums of money on television, radio, and newspaper ads in which they deceive voters with false promises – are a thing of the past in Cuba. Instead, a resume of each candidate, including a photograph and a biography listing things such as education and experience are posted in public places prior to the election.
Finally, all representatives are subject to recall by their electors. In other words, if the people are not satisfied with their representatives, they can vote to remove them from their position, and then nominate and elect someone else to replace them.
This truly democratic process, completely impartial and free from corruption, explains why elections in Cuba have voter turnouts of 95 percent and higher, while in “democratic” capitalist countries like the U.S. less than half of the eligible voters ever cast a ballot.

It doesn’t end there. The Cuban people are involved in all aspects of society through their work places and unions, and mass organizations like the Federation of Cuban Women and Committees in Defense of the Revolution. Delegates of Peoples Power meet with those they represent on a regular basis, not only discussing their problems, but offering solutions. In Cuba, even congressional bills and laws are submitted to the people for their discussion and approval!
And as anyone that has visited Cuba will tell you, Cubans who are critical of the government have no fear in voicing their views.
The truth is, the revolution could not have lasted over forty-six years, under continual attack, were it not for the full support of the Cuban people, because, after all, the revolution is the Cuban people. "

http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/cuba/

[metalero]

The fact that Cuba is also a 3rd world nation should strenthen the idea that cuba cannot achieve socialism because it has failed to industrialize.

Why do you think it hasn´t been able to industrialize? that's the question!
the brutal economic blockade against cuba has made impossible to fully develop the productive forces, however, thanks to the socialist policies implemented by the revolution the alvailable resources have been developed to guarantee dignity, education, health to the conscious cuban people.

Can you imagine what Cuba would be hadn´t been for the blockade?