Marx and Engels were racists?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Taken from www.fascistshithole.com


Marx & Engels, "The German Ideology", Chap. 3: "He has not the slightest idea that the ability of children to develop depends on the development of their parents and that all this crippling under existing social relations has arisen historically, and in the same way can be abolished again in the course of historical development. Even naturally evolved differences within the species, such as racial differences, etc., which Sancho does not mention at all, can and must be abolished in the course of historical development. Sancho -- who in this connection casts a stealthy glance at zoology and so makes the discovery that "innate limited intellects" form the most numerous class not only among sheep and oxen, but also among polyps and infusoria, which have no heads at all -- has perhaps heard that it is possible to improve races of animals and by cross-breeding to create entirely new, more perfect varieties both for human enjoyment and for their own self-enjoyment.. "Why should not" Sancho be able to draw a conclusion from this in relation to people as well?"



"The plentiful meat and milk diet among the Aryans and the Semites, and particularly the beneficial effects of these foods on the development of children, may, perhaps, explain the superior development of these two races." ("Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State", Fourth revised edition, 1891, in Marx & Engels, Selected Works In One Volume, Lawrence & Wishart: London, 1980, p 464.)



Engels. "Notes to Anti-Duehring": "On the other hand, modern natural science has extended the principle of the origin of all thought content from experience in a way that breaks down its old metaphysical limitation and formulation. By recognising the inheritance of acquired characters, it extends the subject of experience from the individual to the genus; the single individual that must have experienced is no longer necessary, its individual experience can be replaced to a certain extent by the results of the experiences of a number of its ancestors. If, for instance, among us the mathematical axioms seem self-evident to every eight-year-old child, and in no need of proof from experience, this is solely the result of "accumulated inheritance." It would be difficult to teach them by a proof to a bushman or Australian negro".



Capital, vol. 3, chapter 47: "The possibility is here presented for definite economic development taking place, depending, of course, upon favourable circumstances, inborn racial characteristics, etc."




Engels: (Marx and Engels, Selected Works, Vol. 3, p. 502.): "We regard economic conditions as the factor which ultimately determines historical development. But race is itself an economic factor".

[redstar2000]

*sighs*

Yes, Marx and Engels were humans -- not gods -- and shared some of the misconceptions of 19th century natural science.

What is actually astonishing about them is how much they were able to overcome those limitations.

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[NovelGentry]

Not to mention, some of these points have already been refuted over there. Although some are valid "concerns," I'm not sure any of it can be credited to blatant racism. Let's examine one of the more steamier quotes:


The plentiful meat and milk diet among the Aryans and the Semites, and particularly the beneficial effects of these foods on the development of children, may, perhaps, explain the superior development of these two races."

Here we hear the phrase "superior development of these two races." This does not mean one is superior by race alone, but focuses in on a key issue. The issue of that of nutrition in the development of a human mind.

If I'm not mistaken quite a few recent studies show that a high fat diet early on in a child's development can increase the potential growth of the brain and nerve tissue. Not saying they looked that far ahead into the future, but such a diet as one high in meat and milk as opposed to say wheat and juice or potatoes and water, would certainly increase the fat intake in a child before and after being born.

This too, can be seen from a class perspective, where many families could not easily afford meat and milk. Overall, they are noting a very scientific principle... the "superiority" as they see it, is based on diet, NOT race.

Anyway, just something to think about. Also, as a personal request: please refrain from bringing too many topics of theirs over here -- I've spent a small amount of time viewing fascistshithole.com when the server went down, and it was bad enough when I first went pretty much 80% of the topics covered were repeats of what I'd already seen on here weeks earlier... I don't think any of us need to see their topics for the past week just because we were down. By all means, if something interested was actually posted and not yet refuted, bring it here, but most (if not all) of us here have already seen these topics play out.

[Irish_Bebop]

Almost all Europeans had misconceptions based on race, it wasn't just straight forward predjudice, but genuine ignorance - its not like they were exposed to many africans. Even the liberals of the time, who considered themselves as seeing all men as equal, had warped ideas about ' the noble savage' and other such mind numbingly retarded crap. The fact still stands that communism is more likely to create racial hormony than other systems, these racial imbalances are even built into the very structure of capitialist society, historical actions have cemented non-white positions below the dominant whites. In communism, at least all will be made equal.

I remember reading back in the 1950's in america there was a black actor, i cant remember his first name, but his surname was Robinson (...i think). He visited the USSR, and said on his return to the states that it was the only country that he had ever been in that made him feel that he could truely hold his high as an equal and as a human being.

He was later forced to leave the states. A black commi in 50's America? im sure the lynch mob saw him onto the plane. He lived out the rest of his life in the UK.

[1949]

While I think he was ultimately only a revolutionary nationalist with inclinations toward Marxism--not a Marxist--I think Huey P. Newton made a correct, Marxist statement when he said the following:

"We sometimes have a problem because people do not understand the ideology that Marx and Engels began to develop. People say, 'You claim to be Marxists, but did you know that Marx was a racist?' . . .

"If you are a dialectical materialist, however, Marx's racism does not matter. You do not believe in the conclusions of one person but in the validity of a mode of thought; and we in the Party, as dialectical materialists, recognize Karl Marx as one of the great contributors to that mode of thought. Whether or not Marx was a racist is irrelevant and immaterial to whether or not the system of thinking he helped develop delivers truths about processes in the material world. . . . John B. Watson once stated that his favorite pastime was hunting and hanging niggers, yet he made great forward strides in the analysis and investigation of conditioned responses."

http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/bpp/book...yonscience.html (http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/bpp/books/hueyonscience.html) (sorry about the source--MIM is crap, but this is the only place I could find it)


Originally posted by Irish_Bebop
I remember reading back in the 1950's in america there was a black actor, i cant remember his first name, but his surname was Robinson (...i think). He visited the USSR, and said on his return to the states that it was the only country that he had ever been in that made him feel that he could truely hold his high as an equal and as a human being.

He was later forced to leave the states. A black commi in 50's America? im sure the lynch mob saw onto the plane. He lived out the rest of his life in the UK.
I believe you are referring to Paul Robeson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Robeson

[Irish_Bebop]

ironic though, that communism would be construde as being built apon racial beliefs. Anyone ever gives me this shit, ill just tell them, 'come to africa my friend, see what racism has done with in your purist little capitalist framework.'

So tell me, how many blacks has communism killed in your lifetime, cause i tell you the capitalist kill ratio just keeps on rising. <_<

[bolshevik butcher]

I just thought it might be worht pointing out that i read some of marx&#39;s peices on imperialism and he mentioned how the indians would eventually overthrow the british and he certainly saw communism as a world and not just a european struggle.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

What&#39;s funny is that Marx and Engels would be restricted to Opposing Ideologies if he was to register and write similar stuff.

Ah, the wonders of political correctness.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 09:47 AM
What&#39;s funny is that Marx and Engels would be restricted to Opposing Ideologies if he was to register and write similar stuff.

Ah, the wonders of political correctness.
No, the "wonder" is that human understanding of social reality grows with the passing of time.

At least it does for some...

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