no communist parties!?

[new democracy]

i remember that i saw that one of the communist here claiming that the resons that the kprf is not wining in the election is because it is not true communist and it is only about flags and symbols, that there is no communist parties to vote to. well, maybe the kprf is not true communist but there are more communist parties like: http://goscap.narod.ru/uci.html , http://www.geocities.com/marxparty/ , http://kprfl.da.ru/ , http://proletarism.org/pr_pdp.shtml , http://www.rpk.len.ru/ , http://rkp-kpss.boom.ru/ , http://rkrp-rpk.ru/ , http://rmp.maoism.ru/ , http://cm-um.by.ru/ , http://www.kprt.narod.ru/ . and somebody is voting to those paties? i mean if the kprf is not true communist, why does the russians people dont vote to those parties

[Revolution Hero]

KPRF is the true communist party. Moreover it is the best communist party of the Russian Federation. It gets stable 30% vote and always forms a majority in Russian Duma. So, it always wins the elections.

There is a certain tactics and strategies of the party's opposition. For example , a bourgeoise party forms "communist" party, and as the result there is a split in the votes. I am sure that some of the parties , the websites of which you named, are made according to this rule. Other parties are not the TRUE communist, as they just exploit the popular term of COMMUNISM.

All true communists are in the KPRF.

[Nateddi]

who told you the KPRF is not a true communist party??? I know you cannot read russian, therefore you could not have read their platform.

[Moskitto]

Didn't the KPRF get expelled from the International Anti-Fascist Unity?

[new democracy]

yuriandrophob told me that the kprf is not a true communist party. and the kprf dont have a stalinist faction? and by http://www.electionworld.org/russia.htm they got 24% not 30%. but then again i heard that the election were not completely fair.

[new democracy]

and the kprf aren't anti semite? that what i heard from the ISRAELI COMMUNIST PARTY itself!!!

[Edelweiss]

Forget about the kprf! Since I heard that they are working together with the National Bolsheviks on marches and demonstrations they have lost any credibilty for me. It's just disgusting. In Germany the biggest communist party is taking part in actions against the Nazi's and not with them. The kprf are not openly anti-semitic like the NB, but as you could see in yuri's comments, who was a member of the kprf, anti-semitism seems to be pretty bad in the kprf. I noticed that anti-semitism is generally worser in eastern-Europe/Russia, it's far more rooted within the people than in western countries.

[Reuben]

Yeah Maltes right. its historically been pretty terrible in eastern Europe.

Recently there have been a loadsof signs put up in russia saying 'death to the jews' which have been made so that they exploded and injure people who have tried to take them down.

I dont know much about the communist party in Russia, though there is no defence for marching with national bolsheviks.

I still woul love to see communism return to russia though.

[Moskitto]

According to a holocaust survivor I met, the Poles hated the Jews more than the Germans.

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from new democracy on 11:06 pm on Aug. 23, 2002
yuriandrophob told me that the kprf is not a true communist party. and the kprf dont have a stalinist faction? and by http://www.electionworld.org/russia.htm they got 24% not 30%. but then again i heard that the election were not completely fair.



`1.yuri andropov was wrong. I don't know what were his arguements, but this guy is totally mistaken and misleads others.
2.KPRF doesn't have stalinist faction
3. The election was fair. Usually the ruling government tries to make the elections unfair, considering their personal interests. Do you expect bourgeoise government to be in favour of the communist party?


(Edited by Revolution Hero at 4:21 am on Aug. 24, 2002)

[j]

Quote: from new democracy on 8:06 am on Aug. 23, 2002
yuriandrophob told me that the kprf is not a true communist party. and the kprf dont have a stalinist faction? and by http://www.electionworld.org/russia.htm they got 24% not 30%. but then again i heard that the election were not completely fair.


Um, ND, that link claims 29.2% which is practically 30%....

j

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from new democracy on 11:09 pm on Aug. 23, 2002
and the kprf aren't anti semite? that what i heard from the ISRAELI COMMUNIST PARTY itself!!!


KPRF aren't anti - semitic! I am sure that they are not.I have read their party program, according to it they are internationalist, and don't have any national prejudiece.There are many jews in the party.
ISRAELI COMMUNIST PARTY don't even know the political and parliamentarian situation of the Russian Federation.

[j]

Ok, sorry.....ya know, you should always really read something before you comment on it....

24% is the percentage of Duma members that are KPRF

30% is the percentage vote that Zyuganov got in the last election (the one that Putin won).


ND, this site doesn't really say how people vote in general elections (with the exception of President).

To use America as an example (because I don't know enough about Russian politics):

If the Congress is 51% Democrat and 49% Republican, it does not mean that 51% of Americans vote Democrat. To break it down even further-- if the 51% Democrat Congress won with 100% in each of their elections then 51% would represent the number of Americans that voted Democrat. But that of course is not the fact.

If one democrat wins with 50% of the vote, another wins with 75%, another wins with 48%, etc. than what is the percentage that voted democrat? You don't know because the percentages are percentages of the people in each district, not the whole country. When you say that 51% of Democrats are in Congress than they could have been voted in by 70% of the country, 30%, who knows.....the only way to check it is to actually count the number of democratic votes and not look at the percentage that they make up in Congress.

I hope that made sense.....

j

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from Malte on 2:00 am on Aug. 24, 2002
Forget about the kprf! Since I heard that they are working together with the National Bolsheviks on marches and demonstrations they have lost any credibilty for me. It's just disgusting. In Germany the biggest communist party is taking part in actions against the Nazi's and not with them. The kprf are not openly anti-semitic like the NB, but as you could see in yuri's comments, who was a member of the kprf, anti-semitism seems to be pretty bad in the kprf. I noticed that anti-semitism is generally worser in eastern-Europe/Russia, it's far more rooted within the people than in western countries.



I will not forget about KPRF, untill you see my avatar. Forgetting about KPRF is the same as forgetting about the communist ideals.
KPRF don't form the union with national bolsheviks and these two totally different parties don't collaborate with each other.
When there is a certain date, like the 1st of May, all of the leftist have demonstrations. NBs consider themselves to be leftist and they demonstrate too. It is possible that two different streams of people got mixed, and the supporters of the KPRF marched together with those nationalists. It is just an accident, but what a sensation for the bourgeoise journalists!

[new democracy]

another question: doesn't the kprf publicly support the WAR IN CHECHNIA?

[Edelweiss]

I will not forget about KPRF, untill you see my avatar. Forgetting about KPRF is the same as forgetting about the communist ideals.
KPRF don't form the union with national bolsheviks and these two totally different parties don't collaborate with each other.
When there is a certain date, like the 1st of May, all of the leftist have demonstrations. NBs consider themselves to be leftist and they demonstrate too. It is possible that two different streams of people got mixed, and the supporters of the KPRF marched together with those nationalists. It is just an accident, but what a sensation for the bourgeoise journalists!


I didn't heard that from western media, yuri told us about that. I'll try to find the thread.

[Edelweiss]

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...ic=407&start=10 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=407&start=10)

i don't know what its like in other countries, but in russia, the extreme left and extreme right often work together on issues that concern capitalism. there is a group called the national bolsheviks who co-ordinate rallies against capitalism. they mix extreme right and left politics together and encourage communists and anti-capitalist nazis to there rallies. i'm not saying support nazi's, what i'm saying is, anyone who can help bring about the downfall of capitalism, is a potential ally (only on very few issues though).

he doesn't mention particalary the kprf, but since he's a member of them, so I guess what he says is valid for the kprf too.

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from new democracy on 5:55 am on Aug. 24, 2002
another question: doesn't the kprf publicly support the WAR IN CHECHNIA?


I am not sure, but I think it does. Each citizen of the Russian Federation supports it.
War in Chechnya, is the question of the principle character. Chechenians violated the Constitution of the Russian Federation by starting this war for their independence.
It is very important for Russia to defend it's territory, as it is formed of many autonomous republics, like Chechnya. And if Chechenian rebels would have been successful, then other republics could use their experience...and Russia could fall apart as a result of the internal conflicts.
Chechenian soldier are terrorists...real terrorist, and these terrorist should be killed, as they deserve it.

[Nateddi]

New democracy, 30% was referring to presidential elections. 24% was the parlimentary elections, and it is higher than any other party received!!

why is every election a bad one??? LOL the communists are not the ruling party, how can they sham the election?? and if they did, why wouldn't they make themselves the winners.

malte: liberalism is not coming to russia. the east and the west are COMPLETELY different. there is only one liberal party in russia and its doing HORRID (less than 10% i believe). Most every party is very authoritarian. Putin is a former communists, a left winger economically though not a marxist, and he is a great change from Yeltsin, the butcher. He doesnt want to outlaw the KPRF, he works with them on a lot of issues, that is why he is supported. The KPRF does do some questionable things by western standards, they are sympathetic of the national bolsheviks, they do have a favoring opinion of stalin (but they are not going by stalinist principals). This is normal in the east, it may seem crazy in the west.

(Edited by Nateddi at 10:57 pm on Aug. 23, 2002)

[Edelweiss]

Nateddi, please explain, what has not to tolerate Nazi's to do with liberalism? I mean it would be liberal to tolerate them, wouldn't it? I think tolerating nazi's and NB's is wrong liberalism.

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from Malte on 6:28 am on Aug. 24, 2002
http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...ic=407&start=10 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=407&start=10)

i don't know what its like in other countries, but in russia, the extreme left and extreme right often work together on issues that concern capitalism. there is a group called the national bolsheviks who co-ordinate rallies against capitalism. they mix extreme right and left politics together and encourage communists and anti-capitalist nazis to there rallies. i'm not saying support nazi's, what i'm saying is, anyone who can help bring about the downfall of capitalism, is a potential ally (only on very few issues though).

he doesn't mention particalary the kprf, but since he's a member of them, so I guess what he says is valid for the kprf too.


That's right he didn't mention KPRF. And it is not about KPRF.He talked about being allies with NBs, though. Is yuri a member of KPRF? If yes, this guy is mistaken, and he can't talk for the whole party.

[Nateddi]

malte,

my point was that russia isn't a liberal place, it never was, and i don't see it on the horizon. therefore people don't go up in arms over nazis. therefore parties are sympatic to other movements if it helps them, etc. there is not hard anti-nationalist sentiments as there are in the west.

[andresG]

Nazis should not be tolerated for any reason.

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from Nateddi on 10:00 am on Aug. 24, 2002


. therefore parties are sympatic to other movements if it helps them, etc. there is not hard anti-nationalist sentiments as there are in the west.


Do you mean that KPRF is not against National Bolsheviks? They are against. It is written in their program. KPRF is the marxist-leninist party, and supports only those who accept their principles. National Bolsheviks are Nazis, as communists can't be nationalists, so they are not communists.

[Edelweiss]

Quote: from Nateddi on 12:00 am on Aug. 24, 2002
malte,

my point was that russia isn't a liberal place, it never was, and i don't see it on the horizon. therefore people don't go up in arms over nazis. therefore parties are sympatic to other movements if it helps them, etc. there is not hard anti-nationalist sentiments as there are in the west.


The tolerance in Russia of the communists for NB's really irritates me. I mean Russia is the country that has suffered most under Nazism. There should be a huge anti-fascist movement there. Anti-fascism was state doctrine in the DDR, why wasn't it in Russia?

[Edelweiss]

Quote: from Revolution Hero on 12:17 am on Aug. 24, 2002

Quote: from Nateddi on 10:00 am on Aug. 24, 2002


. therefore parties are sympatic to other movements if it helps them, etc. there is not hard anti-nationalist sentiments as there are in the west.


Do you mean that KPRF is not against National Bolsheviks? They are against. It is written in their program. KPRF is the marxist-leninist party, and supports only those who accept their principles. National Bolsheviks are Nazis, as communists can't be nationalists, so they are not communists.


Don't know what to believe anymore. The statements of nateddi and yuri are totally diverse to the statemts of RH.

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from Malte on 10:20 am on Aug. 24, 2002
[quote]
The tolerance in Russia of the communists for NB's really irritates me. I mean Russia is the country that has suffered most under Nazism. There should be a huge anti-fascist movement there. Anti-fascism was state doctrine in the DDR, why wasn't it in Russia?



Nateddi have to admit his mistake.KPRF is against NBs, and don't collaborate with them. That is special for Nateddi, as I know that only he knows Russian:
http://www.kprf.ru/
Nateddi, please read KPRF's program one more time. They have nothing in common with nationalists.

The older russian people are anti-nationalists. But the youngs are misleaded. They blindly follow national socialist, I am not talking about "skinheads", who are much worse.
The question arises by itself: Why all these have happened?
The answer is : Because of the capitalism.

There were not any nationalists in the Soviet Union. All of the people were internationalists.

[Reuben]

i agree that capitalism ferments racism, but the societ record on racism, particularly anti-jewish racism, was hardly exemplary
l
l
l
l
l
/

(Edited by Reuben at 1:27 am on Aug. 24, 2002)

[Nateddi]

I agree they have no official correlation with the NBs. I've read the platform of the KPRF, they have no connection with NBs, true. This doesn't mean they openely condemn their views and purpously separate themselves from them. More correctly, the KPRF are neutral to the NBs.

[Revolution Hero]

KPRF don't attack NBs, AND THEY DON'T SUPPORT THEM. But there are a lot of teaching going on in the NBs environment . KPRF have some spies in the circles of the NBs.They try to change people's mind.

[new democracy]

the kprf support the war in chechnia!? its like supporting the war in palestine!!!!

[Nateddi]

LOL everyone supports the war in checheneya, they are basically terrorists.

[new democracy]

arafat is a fucking terrorist and i or the israely communist party dont support the war against the palestinians!!!! seconed, when you sathat they are basically terrorists, do you mean the entire chechnian people, or a group of them?

[Conghaileach]

Arafat, a terrorist? He may be a liar, a cheat, a despot (according to Robert Fisk anyway) but he is no terrorist.

[new democracy]

well, he didnt send any of his troops to attack israel lately. but he is encourage people to do terrorist attack, and he dont try to stop terrorist, and dont forget the fact that now he is not involve directly in terrorism, but before 1,993 he was involve in direct terrorism all the time. when terrorists get weapons from outside , he knows about it and dont try to stop it. and he use terrorism against he's opponents inside palestine.

[Edelweiss]

What about anarchists in Russia? I know there are some groups in Russia. Who big are they? I guess they are the only real anti-fascists in todays Russia.

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from new democracy on 10:29 pm on Aug. 24, 2002
seconed, when you sathat they are basically terrorists, do you mean the entire chechnian people, or a group of them?


Those , who fight against Russia are terrorists. They are trained by the arabians, who are specialized in the terror.
The war in Chechnya is basicly the defence of the Russian Federation's territory. It is written in the Constitutions of every state, that the army's task is to protect state's territory.

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from Malte on 7:41 am on Aug. 25, 2002
What about anarchists in Russia? I know there are some groups in Russia. Who big are they? I guess they are the only real anti-fascists in todays Russia.


Anarchists are not very popular. There are just little groups. I remember the TV program , which was about them. It showed how just 10 or 15 people visited the place where Bakunin (one of the fathers of anarchism) was born, that was during his birthday anniversary. Those anarchists complained that they were not numerous and were not so popular.
The reason for their unpopularity is that almost all young people enter the nationalistic organizations of different types: starting with NBs and ending with the pure fascists.

Actually , anarchists are not only real anti-fascists. Communists, including those who are in the KPRF, are also anti-fascist. But what do you want ? Do expect them to attack those NBs and other fascists and violently kill them? The best way to fight them is to teach them. And KPRF does this teaching.

[Edelweiss]

Quote: from Revolution Hero on 9:32 am on Aug. 26, 2002

Quote: from Malte on 7:41 am on Aug. 25, 2002
What about anarchists in Russia? I know there are some groups in Russia. Who big are they? I guess they are the only real anti-fascists in todays Russia.


Anarchists are not very popular. There are just little groups. I remember the TV program , which was about them. It showed how just 10 or 15 people visited the place where Bakunin (one of the fathers of anarchism) was born, that was during his birthday anniversary. Those anarchists complained that they were not numerous and were not so popular.
The reason for their unpopularity is that almost all young people enter the nationalistic organizations of different types: starting with NBs and ending with the pure fascists.

Actually , anarchists are not only real anti-fascists. Communists, including those who are in the KPRF, are also anti-fascist. But what do you want ? Do expect them to attack those NBs and other fascists and violently kill them? The best way to fight them is to teach them. And KPRF does this teaching.

Teaching is imprtant, but sometimes violence against the fascists is neccesary. I'm talking about actions like preventing their marches or at least NOT to tolerate them at your marches.
In Germany the fascist are marching too on mayday, and believe me, if they wouldn't be protected by the cops they wouldn't try to march again...

[Edelweiss]

http://www.anti-fascism.org/doc-af-tac.html

[Social Democratic]

I agree with Malte, facists shouldnt be given the chance to repeat the heinous crimes against humainty ever again, even if that means they have their right to freedom of speech forfieted.

But what is to be done about russian communism, it must be stabalised and re-instituted, what can be done? These splinter groups and ghost bourgoise parties must be united or purged. I beleive that once the communist party gains power again many nations will follow, seeing that russia cant live without it.

[Revolution Hero]

It is the state , which have to fight nationalism, with the help of the law and other legal norms. Russian parliament adopted "The Law about extremism" recently. According to this law, all of the national extremist organizations are considered to be illegal. NBs would never demonstrate or marche again. If they do this, they will go to the court and they will be put in jail after.

(Edited by Revolution Hero at 6:52 pm on Aug. 27, 2002)

[Edelweiss]

Quote: from Revolution Hero on 8:50 am on Aug. 27, 2002
It is the state , which have to fight nationalism, with the help of the law and other legal norms. Russian parliament adopted "The Law about extremism" recently. According to this law, all of the national extremist organizations are considered to be illegal. NBs would never demonstrate or marche again. If they do this, they will go to the court and they will be put in jail after.

(Edited by Revolution Hero at 6:52 pm on Aug. 27, 2002)


I'm sceptical about such extremist laws, because they can be an excuse for repressions against all oppsitional forces, not only Nazi's or NB's. Anti-fascist resistance has to come from within the people.

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from Malte on 1:03 am on Aug. 28, 2002

Quote: from Revolution Hero on 8:50 am on Aug. 27, 2002
It is the state , which have to fight nationalism, with the help of the law and other legal norms. Russian parliament adopted "The Law about extremism" recently. According to this law, all of the national extremist organizations are considered to be illegal. NBs would never demonstrate or marche again. If they do this, they will go to the court and they will be put in jail after.

(Edited by Revolution Hero at 6:52 pm on Aug. 27, 2002)


I'm sceptical about such extremist laws, because they can be an excuse for repressions against all oppsitional forces, not only Nazi's or NB's. Anti-fascist resistance has to come from within the people.

If the people don't even care about the existence of the national extremist groups inside their society, and if some people are against them, but can't do anything to destroy them, the state have to interfere. At least this law will stop fascists from the serious actions, such as spreading their propaganda and killing those of a different nationality.

[maoist3]

Quote: from new democracy on 1:09 pm on Aug. 23, 2002
and the kprf aren't anti semite? that what i heard from the ISRAELI COMMUNIST PARTY itself!!!


maoist3 replies for MIM:
I doubt it because you have made up quotes from me too.

If you want to see someone in Russia with a tough stance against anti-Semitism, then see to your email security (because the site is monitored) and go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/maoism/message/1432

Then read someone who explained why anti-Semitism is a dead-end for Russia and the rest of the world:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?T1DE21A81

[Turnoviseous]

The fact is that Zyuganov said that they support free-market and that they must find a ´middle-way´. They are centrists and reformists!

Rabochaya demokratiya is much better organization in Russia. They are standing for revolutionary Marxism, Leninism

www.1917.com

[Revolution Hero]

Zyuganov didn't say that!

[new democracy]

thank for the help, and just another question: does the russian communist workers’ Party( http://rkrp-rpk.ru/ ) are anti semite? i heard somewhere that they are.

[RGacky3]

They are not anti semis damn it, people can twist things ther own ways always