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Tzeentch
16th August 2002, 20:58
http://66.46.177.46/bm/weblog/media/gulfwar2.jpg

The question is : Do you think this is a fake one or not?

deimos
16th August 2002, 21:16
if you mean wether this is meant serious then the answer is no.But these americans are so weird people, perhaps its meant serious.......

pastradamus
17th August 2002, 04:47
America needs another war,they have a massive arms industry that needs a war to ensure its funds go steady,from its biggest customer the US GOVT.

its now a nessicity

Revolution Hero
17th August 2002, 09:22
I am 100% sure that Uncle Sam will start this new war. I want the US to be defeated.

deimos
18th August 2002, 14:24
sorry, they can't be defeated.they can't fail when the kurdish peshmergas fight against sadam too :)

Akula
18th August 2002, 22:42
If USA attacks Iraq alone,it will be seen as agressor in the eyes of the normal civilised world.This time there is no backup from Germany or EU.
Russia is also(normaly) agains US actions in Iraq and also agaist sanctions.
But also,it's known that American continent is populated by prisioners and criminals before 200 years ago.How can normal nation be made from that scum.It's all in the genes.Thurst for BLOOD!I'm proud not to be American!

vodun
19th August 2002, 08:16
Quote: from Akula on 10:42 pm on Aug. 18, 2002
If USA attacks Iraq alone,it will be seen as agressor in the eyes of the normal civilised world.This time there is no backup from Germany or EU.
Russia is also(normaly) agains US actions in Iraq and also agaist sanctions.
But also,it's known that American continent is populated by prisioners and criminals before 200 years ago.How can normal nation be made from that scum.It's all in the genes.Thurst for BLOOD!I'm proud not to be American!Where are you from, genius? Are all your posts this stupid? "It's all in the genes". That's fucking genius. Like Jews, maybe? Or blacks? Where are your genes from? Russia is against U.S. actions? Oh golly! They have such a stand-up record for being "civilized". Say some more dumb shit!

vodun
19th August 2002, 08:24
Quote: from Revolution Hero on 9:22 am on Aug. 17, 2002
I am 100% sure that Uncle Sam will start this new war. I want the US to be defeated.
Yeah, well, mother russia won't have shit to say about it, will she? Shush momma - the men are at work!

Revolution Hero
19th August 2002, 08:52
I will tell you what Russia will definitely do. They will import the most modern weapons and military equipment to Iraq.
I have heard it on the news recently. Iraq is going to buy weapons on the sum of $40,000, 000 from Russia.
US will have second Vietnam, and you'll be the vitnesses of their second defeat.

vodun
19th August 2002, 09:11
Yup. Just like Desert Storm was going to be "another Vietnam". And the fearsome hills of Afghanistan. Every crisis is "another Vietnam". Except it isn't. You jokers keep hoping for another Vietnam. The only "second Vietnam" that's actually happened was when the Soviet Union stumbled into Afghanistan and got *****-slapped. Saying it won't make it happen, but keep saying it if you like.

Revolution Hero
19th August 2002, 10:55
Oh come on, american troops didn't enter Afghanistan when Soviets were there. Do you know why? Because they were afraid of the second Vietnam. US fought , using Taliban fighters. And USSR didn't lose this war. Soviet troops controlled the majority of Afghanistan's territory.
Another fact, Soviet Union didn't help Iraq during US desert storm operation. You know what would have happened if they did.

Who are you Vodun? Another us patriot? That's good, you'll see their defeat!

deimos
19th August 2002, 11:51
they'll not be defeated!I'm neither a americanist noir a fool.The iraqui people are against saddam.Iraq is controlled by the el-takriti clan.THey are arabic sunnites.this group makes up only 20% of the population.(20% kurds,60%arabic shiites,20%arabic sunnites)The opposition is too strong.There are over 100000 peshmerga fighters.They'll defeat sadam with the americans.

Revolution Hero
21st August 2002, 08:57
Don't be so happy deimos. US government will not give an opportunity for kurds and other Iraq's inhabitants to participate in the military actions. They will do everything themselves, and they will be taught a good lesson, which they will remember till the last days of their fucking existence.

Drifter
21st August 2002, 12:28
nobody seems to understand vietnam properly.

russia is owed billions by iraq and want to sign oil deals so they are not going to be happy if america goes in there and starts throwing its weight around.
i'd like to see the US get its arse kicked but i'd be very suprised if that happens.
if it doesn't get drawn out, war can be very good for the economy sometimes,

Revolution Hero
23rd August 2002, 08:51
Drifter , we have also to remember that Russia is the friend of US now. So, they will have to choose what is more preferable to them, friendship with Iraq or with the US....hope they will chose the first one.

Looking twice
23rd August 2002, 19:14
the reason why America wants and even has to do everything on it's own is bescause,first of all the neighbours of irak are not waiting for a new gulf war. so there not supporting the U.S. .that's why Amercia wait's another year to organize rekrute even more lost American souls who's hart are still full of vengenge now cuz sept. 11

second of all if America does everything on it's own
than they are stronger , not by manpower but by democratic discisions.nobody can interfere if they for example want the use a atom bomb.like Amercia they won't tell the people untill the bomb has hit the country
and will then eventually deal with the conceguences

deimos
23rd August 2002, 20:30
they can attack from jordania.

Revolution Hero
23rd August 2002, 21:46
Looking twice, Russia still can oppose to the US imperialistic politics. And it will if the US actions would go against Russian interests.

deimos
24th August 2002, 14:55
why do you defend this saddam guy?He killed more than 1 million people!!!

Son of Scargill
24th August 2002, 18:39
deimos,whether anyone likes or hates the Iraqi leader really isn't the issue.The fact is that the present regime in the US does not have the legal right to arbitrarily invade another nation and impose a puppet government there.No american would stand for it happening to themselves.
No doubt Dick Cheney just wants to get a government in Iraq that isn't burdened with UN sanctions(that have been responsible for the death of 1.5million people in the last 10 years)so that his oil buddies can get at more of the 21% of the worlds oil.The small amount of oil that can be traded for medicine most likely doesn't make them nearly enough profit as they'd like,and let's not forget the ratings boost that a "good ol' war"usually nets a militarily successful government,even if it is against an emasculated opposition.
Election time is looming large in their eyes.


"What the New York Times left out"
Printed on Tuesday, August 20, 2002 @ 18:32:49 EDT
http://www.yellowtimes.org/article.php?sid=609

By William Blum
YellowTimes.org Guest Columnist (United States)

(YellowTimes.org) – Page one of the New York Times Sunday, August 18,
picked up extensively by the international media, featured a story on
Iraq: "Officers Say U.S. Aided Iraq in War Despite Use of Gas,"
shouted the headline.

Senior military officers revealed that the Reagan administration had
provided Iraq with critical battle planning assistance in waging
decisive battles of the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s. The assistance was
given at a time when American intelligence agencies knew that Iraq had
already employed chemical weapons and would likely continue to do so.
This of course raises obvious questions about the current Bush
administration's near-frenzied demonization of Saddam Hussein,
particularly for his alleged chemical and biological weapons (CBW)
threat.

Readers can be forgiven if they think this is a revelation of some
sort. It isn't. The story may add a new detail or two about the
precise nature of U.S. tactical assistance to the Iraqis, but the
basic story has long been known. Strangely, the Times story leaves out
the most significant part - the furnishing of chemical and biological
materials by the United States to Iraq which markedly enhanced Iraq's
CBW capability. (There is one isolated line in the Times piece, almost
at the very end, hinting at something of the sort: "Former Secretary
of State Schultz and Vice President Bush tried to stanch the flow of
chemical precursors to Iraq."

At the risk of sounding like I'm blowing my own horn, I must point out
that I wrote a story on this very subject in 1998, which was published
in several "alternative" magazines, distributed widely on the Internet
to this day, and won a Project Censored award in 1999. As far as I
know, the American mainstream media has never covered this story, and
if the Times article is any guide, the censorship will continue.

Following is the crux of my article as published in 1998:

In his recent State of the Union address, President Clinton, in the
context of Iraq, spoke of how we must "confront the new hazards of
chemical and biological weapons, and the outlaw states, terrorists and
organized criminals seeking to acquire them."

He castigated Saddam Hussein for "developing nuclear, chemical and
biological weapons" and called for strengthening the Biological
Weapons Convention. Who among his listeners knew and who among the
media reported that the United States had been the supplier to Iraq of
much of the source biological materials Saddam's scientists would
require to create a biological warfare program?

According to a Senate Committee Report of 1994: From 1985, if not
earlier, through 1989, a veritable witch's brew of biological
materials were exported to Iraq by private American suppliers pursuant
to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce. (1)
Amongst these materials, which often produce slow, agonizing deaths,
were:

Bacillus Anthracis, cause of anthrax.
Clostridium Botulinum, a source of botulinum toxin.
Histoplasma Capsulatam, cause of a disease attacking lungs, brain,
spinal cord and heart.
Brucella Melitensis, a bacteria that can damage major organs.
Clotsridium Perfringens, a highly toxic bacteria causing systemic
illness.
Clostridium tetani, highly toxigenic.
Also, Escherichia Coli (E.Coli); genetic materials; human and
bacterial DNA.

Dozens of other pathogenic biological agents were shipped to Iraq
during the 1980s. The Senate Report pointed out: "These biological
materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of
reproduction." (2)

"It was later learned," the committee revealed, "that these
microorganisms exported by the United States were identical to those
the United Nations inspectors found and removed from the Iraqi
biological warfare program." (3)

These exports continued to at least November 28, 1989 despite the fact
that Iraq had been reported to be engaging in chemical warfare and
possibly biological warfare against Iranians, Kurds, and Shiites since
the early 80s.

[William Blum left the U.S. State Department in 1967, abandoning his
aspiration of becoming a Foreign Service Officer, because of his
opposition to what the United States was doing in Vietnam. He is the
author of Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since
World War II and Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower.
For a signed copy of either of these books, contact
[email protected]]

William Blum encourages your comments: [email protected]

Sources:

(1) "U.S. Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual Use Exports to
Iraq and their Possible Impact on the Health Consequences of the
Persian Gulf War," Senate Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban
Affairs with Respect to Export Administration, reports of May 25, 1994
and October 7, 1994.
Full copy of the May 25 report:
http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/medsearch/Focu...report/report/r (http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/medsearch/FocusAreas/riegle_report/report/r)
eport_index.htm
Full copy of October 7 report:
http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/medsearch/Focu...report/staff_re (http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/medsearch/FocusAreas/riegle_report/staff_re)
port/staff_report_index.htm


(2) Ibid., May 25 report, pp. 36-47.

(3) Ibid., October 7 report, p. 3.

YellowTimes.org encourages its material to be reproduced, reprinted,
or broadcast provided that any such reproduction must identify the
original source, http://www.YellowTimes.org. Internet web links to
http://www.YellowTimes.org are appreciated.




''Who speaks for Americans?''
Printed on Thursday, August 22, 2002 @ 22:35:43 EDT ( )

By Sara DeHart
YellowTimes.org Guest Columnist (United States)

(YellowTimes.org) – On July 22, 2002, the New York Times ran Patrick Tyler's article, "Europeans Split with U.S. Over Need for Iraq Attack" in the International section. What will it take before the Times and other news sources speak beyond a whisper about Bush's impending attack on Iraq?

Mr. Tyler's premise, that it is "American talk of overthrowing Saddam Hussein by military force that is raising alarms in European governments," is only partially correct. It is true that European governments are alarmed, but let there be no mistake about who is talking about overthrowing Saddam Hussein - it is not the American people, it is George W. Bush and the hawkish members of his administration. These people, also known as Chicken Hawks because they managed to excuse themselves from active duty in the Vietnam War, do not speak for the American people.

Retired Army General Fred Woemer asks the question: "Are we involved in a preliminary psychological dimension of causing Iraq to do something to justify an attack?" And of course we know the answer. Mr. Bush and his band of Chicken Hawks are obsessed about Iraq and falling opinion polls. Mr. Bush wants war just as his father did when his poll numbers dropped.

And how did Bush the First seduce Saddam into an act that led to Desert Storm? George Herbert Walker Bush sent a special message to Saddam prior to his march into Kuwait. April Glaspie, then ambassador to Iraq, delivered a message from the President of the United States. According to the Iraqi transcript from the meeting, her exact words were "we have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait." The U.S. government questions the accuracy of the Iraqi transcript but it refuses to release Glaspie's own transcript of that meeting.

Within eight days Saddam crossed over the border into Kuwait only to have Bush the First say "This will not stand." And with those words Bush began amassing troops for Desert Storm.

Will the American people and the world be led into another war by the Bush family? According to French sources reported by Pat Buchanan (TownHall.com, 7/22/02) Saddam has decided to let the U.S. land the first blow. Since Bush the Second has authorized not only occupation of the country but also Saddam's assassination, Iraq may use all the weapons in Baghdad's arsenal.

During the 2000 election campaign, Al Gore warned the country about the dangers of "oil men setting national policy." We are learning what that prophetic statement means.

The Bush the Second administration is following policies established by the Third Reich. Every time things get a little too warm for them they take a page from Hermann Goering's book on mass manipulation. As Goering stated during his trial before the Nuremburg judges:

Why, of course the people don't want war...but after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along. Whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship ...voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.
The media are not raising the alarm. We are being told that another Iraq war is on the horizon, but the media remain quiescent. How many body bags will have to be filled before someone exposes these very dirty tricks? Remember, it will not be the sons and daughters of the Chicken Hawks who will fight this war. It will be, as it always is, the sons and daughters of middle and lower income families, those whom this administration and the media have denied a voice and a vote.

[Sara DeHart, a freelance writer and democracy activist, lives in the Seattle, Washington area of the United States.]




(Edited by Son of Scargill at 6:42 pm on Aug. 24, 2002)

Looking twice
24th August 2002, 19:19
Deimos> i sure don't hope you ment me , off course i dislike saddam and his way of violating human rights , on the other hand what America is doing wrong too.
i just wanted too say that America wants to do everything on its own,and if America accomplish by convincing the european goverments that this socald war is good , than russia has no vote in this discussion anymore , and all there intersest are put a side

Saddam has to been stopped , but not at the time our economics are in bad state , trust of the people is blown away.while young man are signing up for the army of uncle sam.that will only bring more casualtie's than solutions.
think about the children in the middle east , expecialy in palastine. from the moment they where born ,there was a war going on , for almost 2 generations these kids and grown ups have seen nothing else but war and hatred.seeing there family getting shot , wounded , raped. its just not a good time too start this propagandic war about destroying terrorism of the globe.
its all propaganda to test new weapons for the army and to give the nationalistic people of the U.S. the feeling that goverment is doing something back for the 11th

deimos
24th August 2002, 22:40
its maybe not the right time,but its unfair to let the iraqi people wait.The us and and the eu countries created this "monster".Now the must destroy it.corporations earned huge amounts of money selling arms to iraq.Now the time has come to destroy them.

(Edited by deimos at 11:42 pm on Aug. 24, 2002)

Son of Scargill
25th August 2002, 01:34
That's easy to say from a nice safe western perspective.But,as in Afghanistan,how many thousands of innocent lives(and I include conscripts in this,they have little choice)will perish to replace one fucked up government for another?

Son of Scargill
25th August 2002, 01:41
BTtw,diemos,I have every sympathy for the Kurdish nation,I just don't want the US to hang them out to dry like did the last time.Also,if the US frees the iraqi kurds,will their stance change towards the turkish kurds,whom they consider terrorists.Or will they still be persecuted in Turkey?Turkey being a faithful lap-dog and all.

deimos
25th August 2002, 16:54
In this moment,kurdish and arabic people in iraq suffer from saddam.Sure,it'll maybe take many casualties on both sides,but think on the iraqi people!They don't want saddam,and they are to weak to free themselves.The us fight saddam not becasue hes just a inhuman leader,but that doesn't matter.I and most of the iraqi people would rather see a dead saddam and 10000 soldiers in 2002 than a continue of saddams reign.
the creation of a kurdish state has no chances.The turks are against it.Over 20 million turkish citizens are kurds.It would be a catastrophe for turkey if a kurdish state in northern was founded.

Revolution Hero
26th August 2002, 09:42
Deimos , I don't defend Sadam, but I attack US. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
There were already first bombings. Civilian village was destroyed. I don't know if it is an accident, but I am sure that it is the part of the terrorizing Iraq's peaceful population. By the way, Kurds may also suffer from these bombings.

deimos
26th August 2002, 19:41
perhaps some kurds also suffer,but theyÄll suffer more each day saddam remains in power!

munkey soup
27th August 2002, 04:44
RH, if the enemy of your enemy is your friend (meaning Saddam) how can you claim to even give a shit about the Kurds, after all the fucked up shit he's done to them in the north. By your logic you would choose protecting Saddam over helping in the Kurdish causes, one of the few causes with clearly defined lines.

I'm not for the war for many reasons, one being I don't believe the U.S. will do such a great job in helping free Kurdistan (Turkey being an ally an all); but I'm sick of all this goddamn "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" bullshit, its flawed logic, and if all you so-called leftists acting hardcore anti-american would stop, open your eyes to the real world, and think, maybe you'd see that.

Revolution Hero
27th August 2002, 08:59
Hey, monkey, first of all I am not so-called leftist, but I am LEFTIST.
Secondly, I support Saddam only in his war against US. I am not his fan, and I know how many mistakes he have made.
I want only one thing. I want US to be taught a good lesson.

(Edited by Revolution Hero at 7:06 pm on Aug. 27, 2002)

Lefty
2nd September 2002, 03:10
has vodun been banned yet?

KickMcCann
2nd September 2002, 04:51
I think its funny. After 9/11, right before the US military invaded Afghanistan, and during the operation, everybody whined and cried about war, they said they wanted peace, and that the invasion of Afghanistan was wrong. It seemed like everybody in the world was against the idea of overthrowing the taliban and rooting out Al Qeda, everyone but the people of Afghanistan. What alot of anti-war people don't seem to comprehend is the status of society in a dictatorship. Even if a nation, controlled by a dictator, is at peace internationally, it is in a constant state of war internally. Even when Taliban-controlled Afghanistan was at peace internationally, the people in Afghanistan lived in constant war with the dictators. You complain that the US war killed thousands; but in "peace time" the Taliban killed thousands of innocent people. But now the taliban is gone and the people of that country have a bright future ahead of them, all because the US stood up for what is right, even if that meant war. Still the yuppies complain. And though they never object to this internal war and sluaghter, they despise the idea of the US overthrowing a dictator an bringing internal peace to the people of nation, and helping gaurantee democratic rights to these people. I hate war in all forms internationally and INTERNALLY, I love and desire peace. But I support and will always support the overthrow of dictators in all nations, International, World Revolution.
To those who support the Iraqi dictators and murderers, who say "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", you are a bunch of bloody hipocrites. That frame of mind was the same held by the US during the Cold War. The US supported any murderer, thief, religous fanatic and general scum who were against communism. The USSR in contrast, only supported communist nations, movements, and organisations. If the enemy of their enemy was anti-communist, they fought against them too. You "enemy of my enemy" types don't support or care about the world proletariatians, or the will of other people in other nations, you only care about yourselves, and preserving your image as anti-US and Anti-war. You could care less about the oppression of the Iraqi people, the Afghan people, the students in Iran, the people of Saudi Arabia, or the people of the former Soviet Republics, to name a few. Just as long as your nation is not fighting in a war, you don't care if the dictatorships in these nations exist or not, or about the suffering of the people in these nations. You are just as bad as any US military-industrial politican of the cold war.

(Edited by KickMcCann at 5:37 am on Sep. 2, 2002)


(Edited by KickMcCann at 5:42 am on Sep. 2, 2002)

Pinko
2nd September 2002, 05:58
You have a good arguement there, KickMcCann.

Most people will be angered that the US will do this without the support of the UN (toothless as it is). A line of sensibilies is being crossed. If the US gets away with Iraq, what next? It is the fact that the reasoning and rhetoric are founded on lies and propaganda that pisses me off.
We have no right to remove him.
Col Gadafy was pilloried in the eighties, the US was bombing Tripoli and calling for his head. Now he is leading Libya out of that era toward prosperity. Libya is becomming the shephard of North Africa. For a military dictator, Gadafy is rather a good one. He sticks to the more honest religious principles of Islam, he offers loans to other African countries and refuses to charge interest.

Surely the methods of diplomacy or armed popular uprising are more legitamate than one country dictating over another. Either guide them or enable them to choose their own future. Don't bomb the crap out of them and expect them to be gratefull.

Son of Scargill
2nd September 2002, 13:17
"Holding tight: U.S. and the new Shah of Pakistan"
by Yusuf Agha (YT Columnist - United States)
http://www.yellowtimes.org/article.php?sid=637

deimos
2nd September 2002, 14:33
kick i agree with you.
but don't think the us do this to free the people.they only overthrow dictators becasue it gives them more influence.thtas neocolonialism!despite this fact,iam for the war in iraq.