FARC - drug dealers or liberators?

[Edelweiss]

I saw a documentary on German TV a few days ago, it was about the current situation in Colombia. From what I saw it was not cheap propganda, it was serious journalism. It was pretty shocking to see that the FARC is not much better than the para-militaries, they are terrorizing the people just like paras are doing. Not much of their political goals is left, their main interest seems to be the drug trade.
I don't know if I should believe anything I saw, has anybody more information?

[LOIC]

I have seen a documentary too(french tv)and it was like you said: in front of the camera they say that they are marxists, etc... but most of their activities seem to be drug trading.

[Tzeentch]

I saw a documentary at a Tv show name's " Le Point" in Quebec television and they said the same thing too.

[new democracy]

i heard that the urrent president is about to crash the f.a.r.c and the e.l.n. if he will crash them will he crash the para militaris also? if the current president will crash them all i will salut him!!!

[RedRevolutionary87]

omfg, you cant acheive any victory without getting your hands dirty, you cant beat capitalism if you dont use its tactics, the drug trades funds the revolution, and fucks up the american economy, without the drug trade they cant buy weapons, about terrorrising the people i dont know...i really dont kno much about the farc, but i have nothing against drug trafiking to fund your revolution, it kills two birds with one stone. and unfortunatly im starting to realize the only way to be heard these days is to fight a terror war...since you can no longer claim lands through conventional war, nor could you succeed in full out combat against the world powers of today, the onyl way is to be heard, and to be heard these days you have to be feared...its not a prety thing, but its the only way to actualy change something

[Borincano]

RedRevolutionary87,

Drug trafficing is the worst thing in the world. It destroys entire lives, families, nations. Drugs are not only fucking up the rich white elite in the USA, but the people of inner city America. The ones who ar emost leftist and willing to fight for a better life...but things like drugs and drug dealing keeps their minds subversive to what's really messing up their lives.

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from Borincano on 3:56 pm on Aug. 17, 2002
[b]

Drug trafficing is the worst thing in the world. It destroys entire lives, families, nations. Drugs are not only fucking up the rich white elite in the USA, but the people of inner city America. The ones who ar emost leftist and willing to fight for a better life...but things like drugs and drug dealing keeps their minds subversive to what's really messing up their lives.

Then , what do you advise them to do in order to get the money , so they would be able to fund their revolution?

Many revolutionaries used to violate the law for the purpose of the revolutionary movement and the revolutionary party. For example, Stalin used to rob banks, and sent the money to the center of the Workers' Socialist Party in Moscow.
And what is the revolution? It is the violation of the State Constitution, which is the Supreme Law of a state.

[man in the red suit]

Stealing money might be a proposable solution but not selling drugs. by selling drugs, you are ruining the lives and the lives of the families of whom you seek to help. Selling drugs is destructive. There are other ways in which one can support a revolution.

[Ian]

I like ELN 100 times more than I like the FARC. Read up on ELN, you will like them.

[RedRevolutionary87]

we are all expenable for the revolution, in the usa revolution is nearly impossible, in columbia it can be done, if americans need to die for it, better they than the columbians

[perception]

read up on the farc. they aint revolutionaries. And by selling drugs they are a) fucking up the lives of poor and working class americans B) giving the police and prison system even more clout in the US and c) giving the US a reason to intervene. Fukk morals, even in a strictly utilitarian, cause-and-effect analysis its a dumb thing to do.

[IzmSchism]

I think concerned is the man to talk about this with.

The more and more I hear from people living in Colombia, the more and more this face of the FARC is being revealed.

If you want to meet the FARC, this is what Robert Young Pelton emailed me;

I am leaving for Colombia tomorrow. You can contact the Farc but they are very skilled in handling journos and reporters. Marulanda (who I have met) is a cranky old fart who has his lap monkey Raul Reyes do the talking for him. I met all the Farc leadership (including Mono Jojoy) you can read about in the Men's Journal 10th anniversary Collection that just came out in the bookstores.

The universities have Movement Bolivariano groups that can get you to the FARC.

RYP

[Borincano]

Quote: from Revolution Hero on 3:32 am on Aug. 17, 2002
Then , what do you advise them to do in order to get the money , so they would be able to fund their revolution?

Actually, I really don't care about their revolution. It's not of or for the people, but for them alone.

You should really read my posts before you start to write in response to them, lol! Did I write about the illigality of drug trafficing? No! I wrote that it ruins lives... the lives of poor Americans and immigrants to the USA, which the right elite could use to keep them subversive. These working class people are the most leftist of USA society. Why mess them up?

[RedRevolutionary87]

because leftism isnt needed in US society, they have no chance of winning, if they want to serve a purpose they can die for a revolution, be it by drugs, or by going and fighting.

[Borincano]

Quote: from RedRevolutionary87 on 4:47 pm on Aug. 17, 2002
because leftism isnt needed in US society, they have no chance of winning, if they want to serve a purpose they can die for a revolution, be it by drugs, or by going and fighting.

If there's never going to be any change in the USA, then there will be no chance for socialism abroad, especially in Latin America.

Anyway, judging from your comments, you probably never seen many drug addict/dealer or been to any slums or ghettos, lol. These are human beings, not some chew-toys.

People will die in revolutions, but they shouldn't die for wannabe-revolutionaries such as the FARC. (Why won't you get out of Canada and fight with the FARC in Colombia?)

(Edited by Borincano at 4:53 pm on Aug. 17, 2002)

[pastradamus]

Thats why im against violence like that.
Its anti-people bullshit.Even if the drugs is just a funding method,its bullshit.

Militant revoulution is forcing your wishes upone the people,& whats more most of these guys are just twisted bastards.

[andresG]

I don't support the FARC at all.
They do nothing for the people of Colombia.

I would like to know what are pastradamus' views on Che if he thinks revolutionaries are just twisted bastards?

[pastradamus]

Well try beating a ballot box up batistia's fat arse?

The guy was a corrupt dictator (batistia),suported by a nation of evil fatcats(USA).

Che did what he had to do,he was no violent man.A doctor never likes the sight of violence.Che was a visionary.
The guy didnt like the site of cruelty.Then he became almost addicted to springing up other revoulitions(not that this was a bad thing).
Look who he helped out..
Bolivia for example,bolivia was under a firm american grasp.Che lost his life fighting for the cause of justice for the people.The man is a absoulote saint.

But columbia dosent have to take the violent route.
I see a perfectly capable way of winning it over by the ballot box.

[andresG]

I am glad to see that you don't discard revolution as a solution.
But I am sorry to say that revolution is needed in Colombia and all Latin American countries.
But not a revolution led by the FARC.


(Edited by andresG at 10:53 pm on Aug. 18, 2002)

[pastradamus]

Quote: from andresG on 3:04 am on Aug. 18, 2002
I am glad to see that you don't discard revolution as a solution.
But I am sorry to say that revolution is needed in Colombia and all Latin American countries.
But not a revolution led the FARC.

yeah,ok.
I can respect your views.

[RedRevolutionary87]

well i have a few reasons not to leave canada...firstly im 15, secondly revolution is possible in canada.

i didnt say revolution in the usa will never happen im just saying that the revolution in the usa will come from outsiders not the americans.

listen i dont liek to see inocent people dying, nor do i kno much about the farc, im just saying that any means needed to acheive a popular revolution should be used if they will acheive the freedom of a working class. in revolution there are no morals, after the workers have controll can we creaate a moral world, but when you fight an imoral enemy you yourself must be imoral

[stick person]

Quote: from RedRevolutionary87 on 3:47 am on Aug. 18, 2002
well i have a few reasons not to leave canada...firstly im 15, secondly revolution is possible in canada.

i didnt say revolution in the usa will never happen im just saying that the revolution in the usa will come from outsiders not the americans.

listen i dont liek to see inocent people dying, nor do i kno much about the farc, im just saying that any means needed to acheive a popular revolution should be used if they will acheive the freedom of a working class. in revolution there are no morals, after the workers have controll can we creaate a moral world, but when you fight an imoral enemy you yourself must be imoral

Only a young person or an elitist would think that morality can ever be achieved via immorality. The true revolutionary must hold the high ground at all times. Any faults will be ruthlessly exploited by the corporate elitists as an excuse to crush the revolution.

As for a revolution being imposed on the US from outside, you are suffering from a lack of knowledge about what a revolution is. Revolution can come only from the people; anything else is occupation and will be fought, no matter the self-proclaimed noble intentions of the occupiers.

[RedRevolutionary87]

oh is that so? so your saying the cuban revolution was not a revolution, neither was the bolivarian?

you my friend are naive, there is no way one can win anything without breaking some rules, the path from peasant to king is a dirty one. but it is up to those that do reach the position they are after to sustain the morals they fought for, but if they are still fighting for them they need not be moral at all. in todays world you cant win a battle alone you need the support of other nations and people your problem needs to be seen, you need to show them what you are capable of, to show them you are desperate, and you may do anything needed to acheive victory for those you are fighting for.
revolution is not a nice thing, its dirty and bloody, but its the only way to change something.

[man in the red suit]

you both are right to a certain extent. Rules must indeed be broken but not when they interfere with the lives and families of those you wish to help. you are not just harming the capitalists but the proletariot class as well. I could even argue that you are primarily harming the proletariot class as opposed to the capitalists. More proletariots have been inclined to use drugs than the rich.

[Conghaileach]

If the FARC really are evil narcoterrorists who serve no-one but themselves, then why do they have a 18,000 strong army (a third of which is women, by the way), an army made up of the poor of Colombia?
Why is it that they created an area for the peasants of Colombia, where they were free from abuse by the government, police and right-wing death squads?

[RedRevolutionary87]

that depends, for example cocaine is more of a classy drug, and is usualy used by the rich, and weed is used by the poor, but since it is harmless it doesnt matter.

[man in the red suit]

why do you think weed is harmless? Weed destroys brain cells and the lungs.

and cocaine is not a classy drug. Neither is crack for that matter.

[Edelweiss]

The documantary I saw showed that they are also recruiting a lot of child soldiers, the childs are brainwashed and forced into the troops. The girl they interviewed told in front of the camera how she killed a civilian when they raided a village, she spoke about it really cold blooded, it was scary to see. She also spoke about how she was raped by her commandante. Another boy reported how the FARC came into their village and he watched how they killed his parents, they boy wasn't any son of a big landowner or something, he was a son of poor peasants. Apperantly the para-militaries are just waiting to recruit such childs into their death sqats.
The situation seems to be totally fucked up, I can't really see the "good guys" in the FARC any more.

[Edelweiss]

Quote: from man in the red suit on 12:11 am on Aug. 19, 2002
why do you think weed is harmless? Weed destroys brain cells and the lungs.

and cocaine is not a classy drug. Neither is crack for that matter.


Weed doesn't destroy your braincells, alcohol does.

[man in the red suit]

alcohol fucks up your liver.

weed DOES destroy brain cells, not that anyone here really cares about that anyway. How can you deny this?

[Edelweiss]

Quote: from man in the red suit on 12:22 am on Aug. 19, 2002
alcohol fucks up your liver.

weed DOES destroy brain cells, not that anyone here really cares about that anyway. How can you deny this?

state any source to proof that, mitrs, you are wrong. Alcohol, unlike pure weed, does damage your body in a pretty seroius way. It damages your liver and kills your brain cells. You are obviesly misinformed, mitrs.

[Edelweiss]

http://my.marijuana.com/Exposing_08_1095.html

[new democracy]

WELL ONE TIME SOME ISRAELY NEWSPAPER HAD AN INTERVIEW WITH THEIR LEADER. AND I SAW THAT FARC HAS 15 YEARS OLD FIGHTERS!!!! SO DO YOU SUPPORT DRUG SELLERS THAT USE 15 YEARS OLD AS THEIR FIGHTERS AND ATTACKING INNOCENT PEOPLE!?

[andresG]

"If the FARC really are evil narcoterrorists who serve no-one but themselves, then why do they have a 18,000 strong army (a third of which is women, by the way), an army made up of the poor of Colombia?
Why is it that they created an area for the peasants of Colombia, where they were free from abuse by the government, police and right-wing death squads?"
-CiaranB

The FARC have an army of 18,00 combatants because they go into the villages and force families to give their children so that they can go fight. If the families refuse, the FARC classifies them as legitimate enemy targets, and they become subject to kidnappings, attacks, etc...

Also the FARC is doing nothing to help the peasants and the poor of the country. They rather attack the civilian population.

(Edited by andresG at 12:59 am on Aug. 19, 2002)

[RedRevolutionary87]

you really dont kno what to believe anymore...

[Borincano]

Quote: from RedRevolutionary87 on 9:47 pm on Aug. 17, 2002
well i have a few reasons not to leave canada...firstly im 15, secondly revolution is possible in canada.

13 year olds fought and died for the Sandinista revolution in Nicaragua, that's no excuse. Also, explain more why revolution is possible in Canada? I only see a revolution in Quebec under certain conditions, but even that's unlikely.

Also, I never said revolution in the USA, just some political change from within. Political change doesn't always have to start with a bloody revolution. I don't think that's something many here grasp.

Furthermore, killing the work-class in one country in able to "help" the working class in another doesn't make sense. It's very contradictory, two wrongs don't make a right. What if that revolution never succeeds? Would have killed millions of people who are closer to their cause in another country. I understand sacrifices must be made, but I don't think you know the full extent of drugs.

For me drug trafficing is off limits. If a revolution wants to be funded, do it another way. It might not be as profitable as drug trafficing, but at least your conscience will be cleared. The way José Martí did it in Cuba was fantastic, the same as Dr. Pedro Albizu Campos in Puerto Rico. Through the people, not against them.[/i]

Again, go to a slum or ghetto, and try to explain to the people why their lives are shit. Tell them it's for a cause far away and that their children will die from drug territorial shootings, and their daughters will prostitute themselves for some crack... all for a cause. Explain to them, and you'll see that they don't care.

[RedRevolutionary87]

well if the revolution fails the they should be prosecuted, you cant judge anything untill it finishes.

wow that thirteen year sure helped, hes doing so much for the working class right now in his/her grave. also i cant leave the country without my parents allowing it.

ok they have a brain, no1 forced the drugs into them, they would have gotten the crack off someone else and died at 25 anyway, if the country they lived in provided for them they wouldnt need the drugs, its better they buy the drugs that profit a revolution than those that profit the usa and their satelites.

[new democracy]

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/farc.htm .

[Borincano]

Quote: from RedRevolutionary87 on 6:03 pm on Aug. 18, 2002
that depends, for example cocaine is more of a classy drug, and is usualy used by the rich, and weed is used by the poor, but since it is harmless it doesnt matter.


These are the only drugs you could come up with? What about crack, that's used by the poor. The same as heroin. These drugs do more damage than weed. Also, it's not only about drug usage, it's about selling and gangs. The poor without any other way to make fast money or at least the amount they could by selling drugs, turn to drug dealing. Thus, having some blood on their hands by selling it to pregnant mothers and corrupting the minds of the youth. Instead of doing honest work and tyring to break through the racial and class barriers in order to work with good pay, they drug deal.

With drug dealing, they could be killed. Rival gangs fight over territory to where to sell drugs. That 15 year old dealer could be shot and killed.

Let's look at this way. The UN a few months ago wrote a report on adolescent deaths from ages 18-24. The countries that topped the list were Colombia, Puerto Rico, México, and Brasil. Now, what is the major problem in these counties? Drug trafficing and usage.

Also, drug trafficing for a revolution doesn't mean it will help start revolutions else where. Drugs don't go directly from Colombia to the USA or Europe. They go through Panamá, along Central America to México. They go through Venezuela to Puerto Rico to the Bahamas to the USA. They go through nations that are corrupt and have class struggles. Allowing these drug lords to become rich and pay off capitalist politicans, makes it harder for those countries to turn socialist....

[RedRevolutionary87]

again you are putting words in my mouth, i said during revolution everything is acceptable. however if the revolution does not put the working clas on top and keep them there, and create an acceptable communist society then they all deserve to die as well. i strongly believe that if it was needed for everyone else int he world to die for one and only one successfull revolution in one country that will put a just communist government in power that will slowly progress to worker self government.

[Borincano]

Quote: from RedRevolutionary87 on 9:16 pm on Aug. 18, 2002
wow that thirteen year sure helped, hes doing so much for the working class right now in his/her grave. also i cant leave the country without my parents allowing it.

ok they have a brain, no1 forced the drugs into them, they would have gotten the crack off someone else and died at 25 anyway, if the country they lived in provided for them they wouldnt need the drugs, its better they buy the drugs that profit a revolution than those that profit the usa and their satelites.


That 13 year old showed that he wanted change in his country and for a time change did come to Nicaragua. If he was dealing or selling drugs, her wouldn't have fought for change and change wouldn't have ever come to Nicaragua.

Anyway, even if you were allowed to leave Canada, I wouldn't expect you to go fight in Colombia. Easy to write on a forum than to fight for your beliefs.

They have brains, yes, but what's their alternative? Their lives are mush because of those drug trafficers. Yes, you're right, if their country provided for them, then they wouldn't turn to drug dealing or usage. Though, you forget, if they didn't have so much drugs in their streets, they would focus themselves on other things. Such as fighting for their rights...that's the main reason drugs are forced upon them, to keep them subversive. Something I already wrote on this thread....

Again, I don't think you ever seen a slum or ghetto or the affects or politics of drugs. I can tell from your writing. It's better for them not to buy or deal drugs and fight for their rights, than to do it and help a failing and corrupt "revolution."


(Edited by Borincano at 9:37 pm on Aug. 18, 2002)

[Borincano]

Quote: from RedRevolutionary87 on 9:25 pm on Aug. 18, 2002
again you are putting words in my mouth, i said during revolution everything is acceptable. however if the revolution does not put the working clas on top and keep them there, and create an acceptable communist society then they all deserve to die as well. i strongly believe that if it was needed for everyone else int he world to die for one and only one successfull revolution in one country that will put a just communist government in power that will slowly progress to worker self government.


I'm not putting anything in your mouth. (That didn't sound right, lol. :o)

Anyway, I find that very ilogical. You would allow nearly 6 billion to die in order for a small nation, such as Grenada, or Singapore, to have a successful revolution? Of course, that's unlikely, (Who would they trade with, lol) but to have such mentality....it isn't worth arguing with. :(

[RedRevolutionary87]

i was born in a shit hole country that in itself was s lum, ive visted my country many times, ive seen what happens, but as i said, the drugs from columbia arent the only ones, if they tdidnt buy those they would buy others, from other people. and the farc mainly operates in cocain and pot. opium isnt grown in south america on a large scale.

[Borincano]

Quote: from RedRevolutionary87 on 9:32 pm on Aug. 18, 2002
i was born in a shit hole country that in itself was s lum, ive visted my country many times, ive seen what happens, but as i said, the drugs from columbia arent the only ones, if they tdidnt buy those they would buy others, from other people. and the farc mainly operates in cocain and pot. opium isnt grown in south america on a large scale.


Really, what country is that?

Yes, they would by from others, but that doesn't mean the FARC should continue to produce drugs with that mentality. "Oh, if they don't buy from us, they will get it from someone else. So let's keep doing it!"

Anyway, cocaine could be melted and shooted up like heroin. Also, crack is just cocaine in a rock form. Also, yes, they do make heroin poppies in Colombia. Though, Afghanistan was the biggest producer of it until now.

Don't make excuses for them, lol. Again, I'm not putting anything in your mouth. :o Just catching errors in your "arguements."

(Edited by Borincano at 9:46 pm on Aug. 18, 2002)

[RedRevolutionary87]

no youjust need to think about what im saying is, if everyone else was dead and there was a working communist country the world would be communist, theywouldnt need to trade because the resources, all the resources would belong to them. and the world is easy to repopulate.

i was born in yugoslavia btw.

yes cocain can be done like heroine but its too expensive for poor people to afford.

as i said i dont kno much about the farc-ep but im perfectly ok with selling drugs to the rich to fund a revolution, im not ok however with killing your own people, killing the proleteriat you fight for is counter revolutionary and not acceptable, secondly if the people were aware of their situations and wanted to do something to change it they wouldnt fuk up their lives.

[Borincano]

Quote: from RedRevolutionary87 on 9:50 pm on Aug. 18, 2002
no youjust need to think about what im saying is, if everyone else was dead and there was a working communist country the world would be communist, theywouldnt need to trade because the resources, all the resources would belong to them. and the world is easy to repopulate.

i was born in yugoslavia btw.

yes cocain can be done like heroine but its too expensive for poor people to afford.

as i said i dont kno much about the farc-ep but im perfectly ok with selling drugs to the rich to fund a revolution, im not ok however with killing your own people, killing the proleteriat you fight for is counter revolutionary and not acceptable, secondly if the people were aware of their situations and wanted to do something to change it they wouldnt fuk up their lives.

I thought you were saying. I think it's stupid and ilogical. First, it won't happen. Second, why destroy thousands of cultures and allow one to survive and repopulate the world? Why do we need to do that to make communism successful? (I'm not a communist, but a democratic socialist.) That's the same thing that neo-liberalist advocate. Creating one culture under 'pure capitalism.' I think that's the same thing Stalin advocated, creating one culture with communism. It's stupid, lol.

Oh, Yugoslavia is a messed up place, but I don't think for the same reasons as the places I'm writing about. I'm not an expert on the country, but ethnic fighting was the main problem. In Latin America, it's drugs.

Drug addicts would do anything to get what they want. They would sell their new born children and their bodies in order to buy that melted cocaine. That's what drugs do to people.

Finally, your final comment just summorized pretty much what I've been writing all along. Finally, a break through! :cool: Selling drugs to the poor, in any country just destroys any hope for any revolution or internal change. Still, I don't support the selling of drugs period, but at least you realized something.

Like you wrote, if the people know about their situations, they would turn to drugs. Again, as I've been writing all along, drug trafficing are keeping the people subersive. They can't really realize their situations or fight for it, because the majority of their people are in hell. If you release some of that pressure, then they wouldn't have to fight so hard to change things.

[RedRevolutionary87]

"I'm not a communist, but a democratic socialist"

that explains it

[Borincano]

Quote: from RedRevolutionary87 on 10:25 pm on Aug. 18, 2002
"I'm not a communist, but a democratic socialist"

that explains it

LOL! Yes, I care about human life and democracy. (Many communists I know do, but you seem not to.) I've lived in the ghettos and seen the slums of New York City and Puerto Rico.

Still, that doesn't mean you're right. I refuted all your posts, so there you have it. Take care. ;)

[RedRevolutionary87]

i care about democracy, read my communes thread, and you still dotn get what im saying, its ok as long as they will be victorious, if not then they are scum, see its a parodox, its up to them what do to, its jsut if they dont succeed they deserve to hang if they did stupid things.

i care about society, not about the individual.

and i have lived in the bosnian back lands for five years, ive lost many relatives, both serbian and bosnian ones, ive seen drug abuse, i was talkin to a friend from belgraade last year, she told me about a 12 year old girl in her school that died from a heroine od so trust me i do kno.

[Borincano]

Quote: from RedRevolutionary87 on 10:33 pm on Aug. 18, 2002
you still dotn get what im saying, its ok as long as they will be victorious, if not then they are scum, see its a parodox, its up to them what do to, its jsut if they dont succeed they deserve to hang if they did stupid things.

i care about society, not about the individual.

and i have lived in the bosnian back lands for five years, ive lost many relatives, both serbian and bosnian ones, ive seen drug abuse, i was talkin to a friend from belgraade last year, she told me about a 12 year old girl in her school that died from a heroine od so trust me i do kno.

I get what you're saying. It's just I don't agree with it. Again, why should they be seen as heroes if they're successsful in their revolution and they did terrible things, but if they lost, they should be killed? It's like saying ifAdolf Hitler won the war, he should be seen as God, lol.

I care about the society and it's individuals...they what make a society. I care about mankind. Again, it doesn't seem you care for a society if you advocating the extermination of thousands of cultures in order for one to survive and re-populate the world with Communism. (I'm not putting words in your 'mouth.' I know you're not writing that it should happen, but if it did it would be great. Still, even that is naïve.)

It's good that you know. The reason I asked you is because I wanted to see if you knew the extent and horror of drugs. It didn't show on your posts. Now that you claim you do, it makes me wonder even more why you still continue to support the sell and usage of drugs for a revolution. Sad, really.

[RedRevolutionary87]

no because adolf hitlers goals are a failed revolution, so no matter what he did he should be seen as evil, and no im not a stalinist, and no im not evil. im just loyal to the proleteriat.

[Borincano]

Quote: from RedRevolutionary87 on 10:54 pm on Aug. 18, 2002
no because adolf hitlers goals are a failed revolution, so no matter what he did he should be seen as evil, and no im not a stalinist, and no im not evil. im just loyal to the proleteriat.

Well, you infered even if they commit evil, if they had a successful revolution they should be looked upon as heroes. Adolf Hitler failed, but what if he didn't? Would you have supported him? He's a rightist, so probably not. What if he was a leftist, and still murdered 50 million, and won the war, would you have supported him? Whether you're a rightist or a leftist, a failed revolution or a successful one, evil is evil and should be treated as such.

I'm loyal to the proleteriat too, that's why I don't support drug trafficing nor the FARC. :)

[RedRevolutionary87]

no, because he directly killed them, drugs are different, and i never said i support the farc-ep, i dont kno much about them so i cant speak about them, all i said in the begining was that i support drug trafik to the rich, but if somehow it results in the death of a poor person in america that probably doesnt even kno his situation as a worker then so be it, but im not for the mas murder of anyone

[Borincano]

Quote: from RedRevolutionary87 on 11:07 pm on Aug. 18, 2002
no, because he directly killed them, drugs are different, and i never said i support the farc-ep, i dont kno much about them so i cant speak about them, all i said in the begining was that i support drug trafik to the rich, but if somehow it results in the death of a poor person in america that probably doesnt even kno his situation as a worker then so be it, but im not for the mas murder of anyone

Hitler didn't directly kill them. He didn't shot 50 million one by one himself. He had people do it, he invaded countries and the result was millions of deaths. The result of WW2 was the Cold War, where millions died as well. I see the same thing with the FARC and other drug trafficers. They don't directly kill millions themselves, (Well the FARC does kill thousands.) they do it indirectly. More so then if you walk on the floor and kill a bug by accident. You intentionally do something that you know people will die from...and that is evil.

"...So be it..." What? You said you cared about societies? This is not about one poor person, but the working class and increasingly the middle class of the world, especially in the USA and Latin America. With comments such as that, it's hard to believe you're not for mass murder.

[RedRevolutionary87]

its hard to believe because its hard for you to comprehend.i said if a few...and as i said before, its their choice to be on drugs. i dont sympathise with adicts or alchoholics.

[Borincano]

Quote: from RedRevolutionary87 on 11:33 pm on Aug. 18, 2002
its hard to believe because its hard for you to comprehend.i said if a few...and as i said before, its their choice to be on drugs. i dont sympathise with adicts or alchoholics.

It's not hard for me to comprehend when I've seen it and it's a subject close to me.

As I've written before, it's not only drug addiction, but it's selling and the fights over territory associated with it. Now that isn't just a choice when they have no other real alternative. I sympathize with drug addicts and those addicted to things that want to change. Those that don't will be lost. Now, I want things to change so they won't have to struggle to stop. You, on the other hand, seem to support drug trafficing for lost causes and then when people get addicted to drugs (Isn't that the desired affect of drug trafficing? They wouldn't be selling drugs if there wasn't demand. If they didn't sell them then the people would have no choice but stop.) you throw them into the dirt like it's totally their fault. Well, within that I see contradicition.

[RedRevolutionary87]

omg it is their choice, if they wanted to participate in change they wouldnt be doing drugs, and joining gangs. i mean sure id help sum1 if i saw that they kno the mistake they made.

and i dunno if im wrong or not but i thought the farc mainly dealed in weed, which is not adictive. and nowadays everyoen knows the cosequences of drugs, if they knew they wanted to do something with their lives they wouldnt have started.

[Borincano]

Quote: from RedRevolutionary87 on 11:49 pm on Aug. 18, 2002
omg it is their choice, if they wanted to participate in change they wouldnt be doing drugs, and joining gangs. i mean sure id help sum1 if i saw that they kno the mistake they made.

and i dunno if im wrong or not but i thought the farc mainly dealed in weed, which is not adictive. and nowadays everyoen knows the cosequences of drugs, if they knew they wanted to do something with their lives they wouldnt have started.

You don't get it. That's it! They are joining gangs and doing drugs because there's no alternative in their lives. Dealing for easy money is their only alternative. They can't just walk up to a company and be like," I want a job." That takes education, and the inner cities aren't funded well. It's over crowded, the schools are old and deteriorating and under staffed. There's also racism, thus it's hard to get a good job. Some break through the barries, but leave the others behind. Though in drug dealing hard drugs (They wouldn't be dealing if people weren't buying.) they could make thousands in a week. So what would you pick?

You sound like a neo-liberalist, placing the blame all on them, but what is the gov't doing for them? Nothing, and that needs to change and the greed and horror of drugs isn't making things better.

Also, drug education isn't being funded enough. No, many still don't know the true consiquences of drugs. Still, as human nature, you might know something is 'wrong,' but it doesn't mean you can't try it once. That's how many become addicted.

Also, no, the FARC mainly deals with things that make lots of money, such as heroin and cocaine. They wouldn't be able to fund their "revolution" only on weed, lol.

(Edited by Borincano at 12:01 am on Aug. 19, 2002)

[new democracy]

hello, did you read the link that i gave you about the farc? if they fight for the poor people why does they kill indian rights activists?

[RedRevolutionary87]

i kno people from inner cities, they didnt turn to drugs, they tried to create a better life for themselves and their famillies by fighting the opression.

[Borincano]

Quote: from RedRevolutionary87 on 12:07 am on Aug. 19, 2002
i kno people from inner cities, they didnt turn to drugs, they tried to create a better life for themselves and their famillies by fighting the opression.

The inner cities of where?

As I said, there are those who make it through the pressure, but the vast majority don't. I know many of those who are fighting for a better society, but again, drugs and murder is still rampant. They're fighting for their rights, but the vast majority are not. Should we say, "To hell with them, it's their fault,!" or pressure the gov't to help along? Just because some become successful beyond the odds, doesn't mean we should put down or ignore the ones that don't. Drugs aren't solving anything, something you still can't grasp.

(Edited by Borincano at 12:12 am on Aug. 19, 2002)

[RedRevolutionary87]

ok you kno what i admit it, i didnt kno too much about the farc and what sort of stuff was involved, drug adiction is a horrible thing. i was only being supportive of drug dealing to the rich, sort of killing them with their own money...the proleteriat should not suffer fro it.

im not completely sympathetic to all drug adicts, but there are those that i feel sorry for.

its just i really dont kno what to believe about any group these days, i mean the cpc supports the farc, and the cpc is really good, i read alot of their stuff, and i kno of their actions and beliefs, but then others are saying th complete oposite...

[Borincano]

Quote: from RedRevolutionary87 on 12:20 am on Aug. 19, 2002
ok you kno what i admit it, i didnt kno too much about the farc and what sort of stuff was involved, drug adiction is a horrible thing. i was only being supportive of drug dealing to the rich, sort of killing them with their own money...the proleteriat should not suffer fro it.

im not completely sympathetic to all drug adicts, but there are those that i feel sorry for.

its just i really dont kno what to believe about any group these days, i mean the cpc supports the farc, and the cpc is really good, i read alot of their stuff, and i kno of their actions and beliefs, but then others are saying th complete oposite...

I understand, but it never really goes to the rich and impact them as much. They could afford it, but the poor, well they have to suffer and make their families suffer to get it. It's truly an evil thing.

I'm the same. I'm not sympathetic too all of them, but I want change so I don't have to feel sorry for them.

I understand that too, it's hard what to believe these days. One group might seem corrupt and the other might seem great, but they are connected in way you rather them not to be. I support Puerto Rican independence, but I don't support any particular party of it, because they all seem corrupt or very naïve. I hold onto my beliefs, just as you do. :)

[new democracy]

RedRevolutionary87, let say that farc will make a revolution. the farc have no popular support. some survey said that only 1% of the colombian population support them. if the they are going to make a revolution it will be not by popular support but by drug sellers support. and after the revolution how they will fight the drug sellers when they become such a strong force? or they will make them part of the goverment?

[new democracy]

oh, sorry!!! it took me allot of time to write this and edit it too.

[Lefty]

i dislike them. I think they are drug dealers. The zapatistas can make money without selling crack, why cant they?

[Borincano]

Quote: from Lefty on 1:21 am on Aug. 19, 2002
The zapatistas can make money without selling crack, why cant they?

Exactly!