Che Worshiping Kids: Reactionaries and Liberals

[American_Trotskyist]

Alright, I have had enough of this playing Che crap. People run around with Che shirts and hats not know who he was and discrace his legacy. What could be more humiliating for a man who fought against capitalism his whole life to, after his death, be marketed and have the pictures of him be manufactured in sweat shops? Then we have these kids who are reactionary at heart and preach reactionary garbage with picture of Che. Down with the Liberals and Progress, UP with the Communists! I am not a Che fan, but there is nothing more humiliating that all of this Che merchandice and trying to tame him into a bourgeois liberal. By the Way, I combined Worship and Work. Im a little our of reality right now. They Work for changing Che and Worship his face.

[bed_of_nails]

At the same time, the Commercialization of Che has had a positive effect on Capitalist societies. In America, we are trained to think "Commie=Evil". When you have people wearing his shirts, reading books about him, you have the ability to turn more people into Commies. That is how I became a commie. Somebody loaned me some Che books, and I became interested in him. I began buying and wearing his shirts, reading more books on him, and becomming more addicted to him. Eventually I realized he was right, and the commercialization of Ernesto "Che" Guevara is the only reason I would have not only heard of Che, but it is essentially why I am a communist.

[fernando]

This rape of his image is very normal for this time...I mean in the 80s and 90s the ideals of the 60s which the hippies had were raped by neo-liberal ideas. Now Che is being raped by capitalism, turning him into this icon of rebellion which appeals to young people.

[Colombia]

So true but as they grow older, we can only hope that they can see the man, not the face.

[American_Trotskyist]

Ha, over 30 years it hasn't changed anything. Che is now just a raped image. People now look at Che and see 'cool' picture. On the contrary people still see communism as bad, but are just fond of Che. No major change in people's minds about the system with an image. I say, for Che's sake, we stop selling his shit, stop the gangbang.

[{GR}Raine]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 08:34 PM
At the same time, the Commercialization of Che has had a positive effect on Capitalist societies. In America, we are trained to think "Commie=Evil". When you have people wearing his shirts, reading books about him, you have the ability to turn more people into Commies. That is how I became a commie. Somebody loaned me some Che books, and I became interested in him. I began buying and wearing his shirts, reading more books on him, and becomming more addicted to him. Eventually I realized he was right, and the commercialization of Ernesto "Che" Guevara is the only reason I would have not only heard of Che, but it is essentially why I am a communist.
EXACTLY how it happened with me too.

[JazzRemington]

Anyone read any Situationist material? This is exactly what they were talking about: images of rebellion and revolution are taken over by the ruling elite and make "safe" and sold back to the people.

Anything rebellious or revolutionary has a STRONG chance of being hijacked by the people that are the target of said things.

[Severian]

Whether you think all this merchandising is good or bad, you can't make it go away. All you can do is try to bring out Che's ideas and actions.

I think a big part of sanitizing Che is separating him from the Cuban Revolution...the biggest and most successful struggle he was part of, and one that's still going on today.

The ruling class, and reformists, greatly prefer failed tragic martyrs to revolutionary victories. 'Cause revolutonary victories are a lot more likely to inspire people to wanna do likewise.

[American_Trotskyist]

What is now happening to Marx's theory has, in the course of history, happened repeatedly to the theories of revolutionary thinkers and leaders of oppressed classes fighting for emancipation. During the lifetime of great revolutionaries, the oppressing classes constantly hounded them, received their theories with the most savage malice, the most furious hatred and the most unscrupulous campaigns of lies and slander. After their death, attempts are made to convert them into harmless icons, to canonize them, so to say, and to hallow their names to a certain extent for the "consolation" of the oppressed classes and with the object of duping the latter, while at the same time robbing the revolutionary theory of its substance, blunting its revolutionary edge and vulgarizing it. Today, the bourgeoisie and the opportunists within the labor movement concur in this doctoring of Marxism. They omit, obscure, or distort the revolutionary side of this theory, its revolutionary soul. They push to the foreground and extol what is or seems acceptable to the bourgeoisie. All the social-chauvinists are now "Marxists" (don't laugh!). And more and more frequently German bourgeois scholars, only yesterday specialists in the annihilation of Marxism, are speaking of the "national-German" Marx, who, they claim, educated the labor unions which are so splendidly organized for the purpose of waging a predatory war!
V.I. Lenin, The State And Revolution

[guerillablack]

Originally posted by {GR}Raine+Mar 30 2005, 12:11 AM--> ({GR}Raine @ Mar 30 2005, 12:11 AM)
[email protected] 27 2005, 08:34 PM
At the same time, the Commercialization of Che has had a positive effect on Capitalist societies. In America, we are trained to think "Commie=Evil". When you have people wearing his shirts, reading books about him, you have the ability to turn more people into Commies. That is how I became a commie. Somebody loaned me some Che books, and I became interested in him. I began buying and wearing his shirts, reading more books on him, and becomming more addicted to him. Eventually I realized he was right, and the commercialization of Ernesto "Che" Guevara is the only reason I would have not only heard of Che, but it is essentially why I am a communist.
EXACTLY how it happened with me too. [/b]
As with me.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

It didn't happen to me, but I am glad that they are exploiting Che's face instead of say Ayn Rand. Capitalist exploitation would go on anway, whetever they would exploit Che or something else, but his has atleast as advantage that it attracts people to socialism.

[aberos]

i am very strongly against the whole che apparel fad due to the fact that it rapes his struggle to buy capitalist products with his image on them, as was stated earlier in the post, but the fact is that if it was not his face being exploited, it would be someone else's. at least this way the message reaches a few more people than it may have before and the concept of revolution is silently indoctrinated into the minds of more. and, yes, many of the idiots running aroung with his mug on their sweater will never have a clue,and that is so frustrating that it makes me want to vomit to focus my anger and pain on something other than the knot it creates in my soul, but it does reach some. the war against capitalism must be fought in baby steps, and to quote the ever controversial josef stalin, "wen we hang the capitalists they will sell us the rope we use."

remember that you can always count on a communist to want to try to exterminate capitalism, and you can always count on a capitalist to have a price.

[guerillablack]

Let me know, so only Communist and Socialists can where Che shirts? Only christians can where MLK shirts, or muslims can wear Malcolm X? WHy not respecting the persons movement and wearing their shirt. Why do you have to agree with all their ideologies?

[Urban Guerrilla]

Educate them, don't criticize them :che:

[novemba]

When you see someone wearing a Che shirt you have to give them the benefit of the doubt. If you become sure that he doesn't know who Che was, then I would suggest you enlighten him instead of telling him off because of his shirt. If they say something like "I just bought it cause it looks cool" then respond with positive remarks such as "So was he..." etc. You have nothing to lose by giving him a chance to discover Che too.

[bed_of_nails]

I have enlightened several people at my school about whom is on their T-shirts.

[Clarksist]

I find it ironic when Hot Topic nu-metallers get the commie shirt and Che arm band... giving money to the bourgeois fat-cats who just market more of it. I mean that's what makes me mad, places like Hot Topic which are selling kids their revolution.

I mean they say they are just being "different" but they are just like all the other faux-goths. Then they buy Che memerobilia, just seeing it in a catalogue, but if you told them about communism, they'd just reject it because they get way to much in allowance to let it go.

So it doesn't perpetuate communism at all in the end. I mean your 13-21 how long? Once the teen angst stops, most kids just get a job after accidently knocking up their girlfriend.

[aberos]

i would tend to agree that by and large the average person does subside themselves to capitalism after their wild and crazy youth; and i would also agree that it is important to try to educate the ignorant before condemning them, but that does not change the fact that the concept of the che apparel fad is, simply put, sickening.

[MKS]

The first time I saw Che was on a t-shirt worn by the lead singer of Rage Against the Machine. I did some research on Che, and now 3 years later I still believe in Che, the man and his ideals and his struggle. Without that T-shirt I perhaps would not have known about Che for some time and perhaps never have considered Socialism/Communism

Just remember when you see some burgoise yuppie "Metal head, Punk, etc" wearing a Che shirt that they are promoting Socialism/Marxism without even knowing, and that makes them huge assholes. I think che would have laughed at the ignorance. And yes he would have been enraged that the shirts were made in sweatshops, that is something we should focus on, the labour and production of the shirts, hats etc.

[aberos]

exactly the root of my sickness

[bed_of_nails]

How do we beat large sweatshops though? We must take this fight to the capitalist front if we wish to end it soon. We must find a method of beating cheap, easy labor for places like Wal-Mart.

[aberos]

you do it by eliminating their presence. the revolution must begin in the underprivileged third world nations.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 04:09 AM
you do it by eliminating their presence. the revolution must begin in the underprivileged third world nations.
Why? Hasn't history shown that 'revolutions' in so-called 'backward' economies leads almost entirely to the restoration of capitalism but with 'new' political masters? Isn't marxism premised on the idea (among others), that revolution must first happen in advanced capitalist countries? Places that have 'modern' production processes and technologies, the means to a communistic society?


Just remember when you see some burgoise yuppie "Metal head, Punk, etc" wearing a Che shirt that they are promoting Socialism/Marxism without even knowing,

I disagree, they're not promoting Socialism or Marxism, they're just furthering the appropiation of a revolutionary image. From revolutionary, to passive and bourgeois. The most striking aspect of the whole 'che'-love trend in the 'west' is their distinct seperation of Che as a revolutionary, from his own ideology. The revolutionary is rarely if ever linked to the revolution (a point raised earlier in the thread), and almost never linked to the ideas that drove him. In bourgeois culture, dicussion of che and the use of his image begins and ends as empty romanticism, like much of bourgeois 'culture' more generally :P

An interesting tangent to this thread...

What of the appropiate of Mao and Lenin? Mao paricularly, is now basically a joke in the 'west', often racialised as the 'fat smiling asian', and denigrated for his many misguided policies (the steel debacle particularly).

Recently though, i saw Lenins' image, his head, with a set of large head phones on a red background, with the subtitle 'join the revolution!' (in yellow 'soviet'-font), an ad for some kind of internet-communication service. I dont quite see the 'connection' between the two, Lenin and the internet, but yeah, marketing is one of the most inane aspects of capitalism.

edit: found a modified version of the ad i was talking about,

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/blackandred/pro_tel4011_web_pic.jpg

The full ad is on a solid red bg, with 'join the revolution!' underneath, it's for some kind of music dling site, a sub-company of telstra, australias public telecommunications company (http://bigpondmusic.com/home.asp)

I also found this, http://www.liberateyourlaptop.com.au/what.htm

'lap tops of the world unite!'

[NovelGentry]

Places that have 'modern' production processes and technologies, the means to a communistic society?

Yes, but then again, not everyone is Marxist.


I disagree, they're not promoting Socialism or Marxism

If it weren't for people wearing this stuff, I would not be here today, nor would a lot of other people.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 05:13 PM

Places that have 'modern' production processes and technologies, the means to a communistic society?

Yes, but then again, not everyone is Marxist.


Yes, but then again, not everyone is Marxist.

Well yeah, i'm not. I just assumed aberos was (with the che avatar), but i guess he could be a maoist, which would be supported by his statement, but it doesn't change the historical record, nor my (flawed?) interpretation of it. Do you think a successful communist revolution will occur in the 'third-world' before it occurs in an advanced capitalist country? If so, why?


If it weren't for people wearing this stuff, I would not be here today, nor would a lot of other people.

I understand that, but che-iconography promotes che, not marxism itself. Most people see ches' image, some may read-up a bit on him, but dont make the connection between him being 'cool' or romantic, and being a serious revolutionary. The minority that do, go read up on what motivated che, and then become communists, are just, the minority.
As far as i can tell that's more because of them as individuals than the che-shirt necessarily.

[NovelGentry]

Well yeah, i'm not. I just assumed aberos was (with the che avatar), but i guess he could be a maoist, which would be supported by his statement, but it doesn't change the historical record, nor my (flawed?) interpretation of it. Do you think a successful communist revolution will occur in the 'third-world' before it occurs in an advanced capitalist country? If so, why?

I think there may be revolutions there, but I don't think they will be successful. There is a portion of the revolutionary consciousness that oppressed workers of early capitalism have that those of advanced nations don't, but it is a consequence of becoming an advanced capitalist nation. They may have the will to revolt, and even the means to overthrow, but I do not believe they have the means to actually implement socialism. Every previous "socialist" revolution has degraded or initially stepped into state capitalism first, and has held this for the full length of it's time before ever actually seeing socialism. We see it with Cuba today. State capitalism, I do believe, can advance a nation much like regular capitalism, however, without support from the capitalist nations already in existence which have more free market capitalism, you see these nations either fall directly towards a more free market capitalism or instituting a regulated capitalism, where there are some free and some state controlled industries.

They will have to shed these stages before actually moving on to socialism. I do believe many nations such as this will need two revolutions, and although the first may be in the name of socialism, they MUST undergo capitalism before being able to overcome their material limitation.

It may be completely possible to have an workable plan of permanent revolution (ala Trotsky) but I think poorer nations, unless extremely small in population, may create a burden on more advanced ones that even makes socialism in such a situation difficult to advance. Did Germany have the productive means to support all of the USSR? Probably not, at least not enough to maintain a feasible plan that actually present social production/control.

But hey, I AM a Marxist. And this is my original point. This really comes down to whether or not you believe Marx was "right."


I understand that, but che-iconography promotes che, not marxism itself. Most people see ches' image, some may read-up a bit on him, but dont make the connection between him being 'cool' or romantic, and being a serious revolutionary. The minority that do, go read up on what motivated che, and then become communists, are just, the minority.

But without it you wouldn't just lose a minority/majority, you'd lose everyone who has bothered to read more and make the connection. This is my point, if the image was not promoted, I wouldn't be here... the numbers would be even less. Should this be the primary means? No... I'm not sure real communist thinks wearing a Che t-shirt is a feasible means of practicing, that is, getting the word out and turning people on to workers revolution and communism.

But I don't see it as hurting the movement. If such things didn't exist, the movement would probably have a significantly fewer people. If you ask me, give everyone a Che t-shirt, there's far too few people who've never even seen his face and thus are never even provoked to read more.

[bed_of_nails]

One must always look at both sides of an occasion.

Yes, the capitalist industries are taking advantage of a revolutionaries image.

Yet at the same time it does win people over for our cause. People see the image of Che, become intrigued, and end up finding a biography and becomming interested in him. Those people who sway further to the left with the more they read about someone they concider their hero (hint hint), eventually become Socialists and Communists.

I do not support the disgracing of a hero's image through making Ernesto Guevara into a trend, but we must realize he does still win people to our cause and that is a greater good. If Che wasnt on the shirts, someone else would be and the same companies would still be making money.

[Colombia]

Points brought up countless times before.

[Black Dagger]

But without it you wouldn't just lose a minority/majority, you'd lose everyone who has bothered to read more and make the connection.

Good point ;)


This really comes down to whether or not you believe Marx was "right."

In terms of the material conditions argument? Yes, i think he was.

[Domingo]

Wouldnt this all just be a matter of eduucating the children who wear the shirts.

I mean face it, every time you got to town and a baby-boomer sees youwith a Che shirt on, they either look at you bad or say something to the degree of "Communist will just kill you."

If you educate the childeren, they will see who Che is. The ones who say "OMG, how could i have been wearing that" are the ones that we dont need.

The ones who say "Yes, Che was a man with a cause. I respect his ideas and will protect his name and ideas." Thats the way I try to spread the ideas. Usually works with latinos.

[Aaezil]

"If you ask me, give everyone a Che t-shirt, there's far too few people who've never even seen his face and thus are never even provoked to read more. "

I don't care if the fuckin' shirt says "I'm Pro-Neocon" or "Peace is for Hippies", I'd still wear it if it were made in a unionized shop. That's something I figured you, being quite fond of Socialism, would appreciate: workers rights.
Fuck sweatshops

[codyvo]

I agree with many of you, that the exploitation of his image is wrong, but we are powerless to stop it, so we should use it to our advantage. Like you guys have been saying educate the person wearing the shirt, the part that frustates me most about this, is that, if you see someone wearing a Marx shirt you know they're good, or the same can be said for a Lenin shirt or many other people, but if you see someone in a Che shirt you have no idea if they are smart or if they are a leftist.

And does anybody else think it is funny that Che who was far more radical than Fidel is now idolized in america but Fidel is still considered an enemy by almost everyone.

[Aaezil]

There are plenty of people doing something about sweatshop conditions. Try Kumba Clothing, American Apparel, No Sweat Clothing, The Unswoosher, and Mother Jones (they're a magazine but they make a sneaker made in 100% Unionized shops).

No one is powerless to stop anything.

[codyvo]

I didn't mean it like that, but now that we're on the topic I'd like to tell you that I'm on a boycott of all clothes and all products made in sweatshops, it's been almost a year since I started.

[bassplayinllamas]

if u want to feel sick go to this website which is ridiculous about selling his shit which revleft is supported by which is stupider
thechestore.com

[S_Nylia]

I would have to say like so many that selling all this stuff with che on is stupid and something he would have hated. But at the same time if it wasnt for seeing ches's face on the front of a backi tin i would not have become as intrested in the man as i did and i would not have discovered my true disgustd at the capitalist world as i know now i have. So in a way it is all down to the guy how made it (A guy how works in a shop made the tin and gave it to me) that i know as much about che and socialism as i do know. But on the other hand i dont agree with all the merchindise they are making and selling at high prices, but i cant say crap considering.
:P

[TC]

Che is a good symbol though...i don't think that kids have to read a ton of marxist literature or have some kindof ideologically pure understanding in order to use his image in a meaningful way...Most revolutionaries didn't follow some kindof intellectual marxist dogma they followed what made sense to them in the level of their own experiance and thats what people do with che as a symbol. Its a symbol of leftwing revolution, everyone knows that whether they wear it or not, and thats enough for it to be meaningful. I'ts much better then seeing rebellious kids with confederate flags and thats the cultural equivolent on the right.

[Sirion]

As the old leader of the norwegian party Red Electoral Alliance said: "When I was 17, it [noncommunists wering Che shirts], but today I have a different perspective. Isn't it better than having people wear t-shirts with Margareth Thatcher or Ronald Reagan?"

[aztecklaw]

I saw a South Park where one of the kids was wearing a Che shirt. I started cracking up!

[CCCPneubauten]

I happen to be 15 and go to high school, in a conservative part of Michigan. I feel sick when I see a Che necklace (yes there is cuh a thing) worn by some one wearing a Young-Republicans T-shirt...Che is probally turning in his grave.

[CrazyModerate]

I think the photographer of the famous Che image copyrighted the photo so it could no longer be exploited commercially:
"As a supporter of the ideals for which Che Guevara died, I am not averse to its reproduction by those who wish to propagate his memory and the cause of social justice throughout the world, but I am categorically against the exploitation of Che's image for the promotion of products such as alcohol, or for any purpose that denigrates the reputation of Che." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Korda)- What Korda said about the use of Che's image to promote Smirnoff.

[bassplayinllamas]

What Korda said about the use of Che's image to promote Smirnoff.

who was that korda?