Sexism in Ancient Greek

[jentle]

Plato is famous for always comparing the body to the soul, and the soul is always the man and the body always the women. Much like his forms, a body is compared to images and opinions while the soul relies on reason and understanding. Objects and opinions can represent a true ideal that is immortal and infallible, but it is not real knowledge or understanding.

woman represents the body, and the body represents images and opinions, but not quite the true and eternal knowledge. Man represents soul and soul represents reason and forms, that which is infallible, and never changing and true.

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In Theaetetus, Socrates relates the physical art of midwifery to his art or form of midwifery. His art of midwifery is not physical, rather it deal with intelligence and the soul, and he does not deal with women, rather men. He states that he watches over the souls of men, not their bodies. He helps them through pains of labor (ie; thinking too hard to put it bluntly) and guides them. He helps delivers ideas, and applies tests to the offspring. However, it’s common that Socrates was known to ask questions. This, he says, is because he does not have the ability to hold wisdom, just like most midwives have passed the child bearing age. He does not procreate, rather attends to the travail of others...

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Oh and has anyone read Irigaray's essay on "Plato's Hytera" ie; the allegory of the cave? While I think she brings forth some good points.. 100 pages dedicated to something that took up a page or two of the Republic seems a bit wacky to me.

Your thoughts?

[aberos]

i more than agree with you in saying that one hundred pages on a topic that plato devoted only a few pages to in the republic is just plain wacky because of the great detail he went into on a very narrow subject matter. sometimes elaboration simply is not key, eh?

[monkeydust]

In Theaetetus, Socrates relates the physical art of midwifery to his art or form of midwifery. His art of midwifery is not physical, rather it deal with intelligence and the soul, and he does not deal with women, rather men. He states that he watches over the souls of men, not their bodies. He helps them through pains of labor (ie; thinking too hard to put it bluntly) and guides them. He helps delivers ideas, and applies tests to the offspring. However, it’s common that Socrates was known to ask questions. This, he says, is because he does not have the ability to hold wisdom, just like most midwives have passed the child bearing age. He does not procreate, rather attends to the travail of others...


Yes, you're pretty much there.

This comment in the Thaetetus doesn't really relate to any supposed "sex" of the body or the soul, it merely springs from two central reasons:

A)Socrates' mother was a midwife, so it's a fairly fitting parallel.

B)Socrates believed that you didn't "create" knowledge, but that it was already innate and existent as a metaphysical "form". Everyone, deep down, knows these forms, he says - everyone, somewhere knows what is "good" what is "just" or what is "right" - but it takes a philsophers questioning for one to recognize these ideas for what they are. Socrates isn't, in this sense, imparting knowledge, he is instead guiding people to what is already there, hence he's a midwife (apparently).

If anyone's interested in the issue of sexism in Ancient Greece then there's a few other documents that come to mind (this is just off the top of my head so it could be wrong):

-Pericles' funeral oration in Thucydides' famous History of the Peloponnesian War. In this Pericles ends the speech saying words to the effect of "as for women, it is right for them to stay at home".

-Plato's Apology. Socrates makes a remark to the effect of "you are as good as the worst of men, or worse still, a woman"

-A couple of Arisophanes' plays, The Assembly Women and Women at the Thezmophoria (sp) come to mind.

MonkeyD

[bed_of_nails]

I still find it amazing that there was less sexism in ancient Greece and Rome than there is in certain parts of the world today. What does it mean when culture decides to take a step backwards?

[Don't Change Your Name]

This reminds me of the christian nonsense of god raping Mary.

[RevolverNo9]

Well yes but that's how society worked. Although it is helpful to retain our comments on Athenian culture; social relationships differed raically in other Greek sets.

The main problem was adultery - if there's any doubt to the legitimacy of a child this creates a huge political and personal blow to a family. There's one way to make sure women don't bear other men's children... never to venture beyond one's threshold. Added to this, Athenian men were terrified by the insatiability of the Female sexual drive; it made no logical sense!

So, if you keep younger men in sexual reletionships with older/younger boys until marriage, that keeps sexual drive from the male side satisfied; that's the origin. However, your comments on sexual dualism continue into the physical act of sex. While intercourse with women led to children of the flesh, intercourse with men could result in children of the mind.

The consequences of letting a woman's passions go unsatisfied? Her womb (which they thought had legs), if not moistened in the normal way, would go on hike for humidity within the body - the higher up, the more humid, the logic went. So it would walk past the mind, which is of course in the navel, and end up in the most moist organ of all - the brain. This caused women to go mad and -specifically- to throw themselves into wells.

Okay that's less relevant, but it never fails to fascinate me...

[JazzRemington]

I think it was Aristotle who attributed emotions to women and reason the man, basically insinuation that woman are ruled by their emotions and are incapable of being able to use reason.

It somewhat surprises me that Greeks were sexist, seeing as they were basically a free-love society in many ways.

[Monty Cantsin]

Yes but free-love between Men though...Spartan women were the freest in Hellenic societies which doesn’t sound too good when you know how the rest of their society was constructed.

[monkeydust]

Yes but free-love between Men though...Spartan women were the freest in Hellenic societies which doesn’t sound too good when you know how the rest of their society was constructed.


The guy's right, which precisely illustrates why generalizations like this one below get on my tits.


It somewhat surprises me that Greeks were sexist, seeing as they were basically a free-love society in many ways.


Well...yeah.

You're may well be right, but really we don't know enough to generalize to that extent. You're making two generalizations which aren't really fair:

1.All Greeks were sexist.
2.Greece was a free-love society.

You won't be able to substantiate either, in reality. The reason for this is that when you say "Greece" you really mean "Athens".

Greece was made of of a great many city-states - the Greeks called them poleis (polis singular) - of which Athens was only one.

Of course there were similarities to be drawn between them in some places; but in areas such as sexuality an the role of women they could be quite different.

Now for Athens we know very little on this; but enough to say something relatively accurate on the topic. For other poleis, like Argos or Corinth, we know a little. But for the vast majority of these city-states we don't really know anything.

As such, it's unfair to say that "the Greeks were free-loving and sexist" because in reality them may well not have been.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by El Infiltr(A)[email protected] 2 2005, 04:44 PM
This reminds me of the christian nonsense of god raping Mary.
This wasn&#39;t the first god to do so either; Zeus for a well known example, would sneak into rooms with women, gods would kidnap people and force them to do whatever but since they are "gods," who can hold it against them? <_<

[bed_of_nails]

Zeus didnt usually rape them. Zeus was appealing to women and seduced them normally. And the occasional man (Ganimede)

[RevolverNo9]

The reason why Spartan women had free sexuality amongst themselves was because from the age of 7 boys were seperated in military traning, where they were encouraged to have relations among themselves. In fact after marriage women had their heads shaven and were forced to wear tunics because otherwise the transition from men to women would be too weird for the husband.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 03:07 PM
Zeus didnt usually rape them. Zeus was appealing to women and seduced them normally. And the occasional man (Ganimede)
Yes, as a GOD he wouldn&#39;t be commanding any subserviance. Who wants to have a fling with Zeus? I&#39;m doubtful that they had much of a choice... most of the gods took what they wanted. Heh, seduced them normally... was this some sort of written proceedure? Zeus&#39; guide to seduction perhaps? Step #1 be a god, and Step #2 its good to be a god