A few questions - that have been bothering me.

[Lefty]

Well, since it is summer, I stay up late on most nights, as there is no school the next day. And while i stay up, i usually think a lot. Gee, im an amateur philosopher. But anyways, my question is this. One of the smart people will probably come up with a smart answer to this question and i will be embarrassed. But anyways...
So, both my parents are kinda left-of center liberal people, right? My dad works for a company that provides emergency rooms with doctors. We make upwards of $60,000 a year. We own a BMW and a fully paid-off house, and we live pretty well. Yay for capitalism. As far as I can tell, most of your people's arguments against capitalism are mainly like this one:
rich people get rich off poor peoples work. MY dad got rich off only one persons work: himself. He has worked his ass off in the medical profession (paramedic, doctor, now his current job) 9-7 almost everyday so he could support his family and support them well. Why is that bad? I, contrary to many peoples "fuck possessions" beliefs, find that very admirable. Is there anything wrong with that?

[komsomol]

Yes, I bet your Dad works really hard, he is proletariat. I can tell this as you said he works for a company. The bourgisie is the one who gets rich off other peoples work, he is the employer, he is the enemy.

The statement "rich people get rich off poor peoples work" has no real meaning, since the meaning of the words "rich" and "poor" differentiate a lot between people. However, this statement is true if the definitions are right.

However to hold pure objective truth we would say "the bourgisie gets rich off the proletarians work"

[vox]

Well, Lefty, let's not forget what Marx had to say in Wage Labour and Capital (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/ch06.htm):

"A house may be large or small; as long as the neighboring houses are likewise small, it satisfies all social requirement for a residence. But let there arise next to the little house a palace, and the little house shrinks to a hut. The little house now makes it clear that its inmate has no social position at all to maintain, or but a very insignificant one; and however high it may shoot up in the course of civilization, if the neighboring palace rises in equal of even in greater measure, the occupant of the relatively little house will always find himself more uncomfortable, more dissatisfied, more cramped within his four walls."

The psychological costs of inequality have to be dealt with from both sides. The Beemer, while a fine car, is probably, and I'm using a generalization here, more of a status symbol than a means of transportation.

And that's what I'm on about here. If you're parents are on the liberal side, great. However, buying a hybrid auto might be a better choice than a BMW. Or, buying a cheaper car and giving the difference (or half the difference) to charity might be an idea. Or, depending on where you live, investing in a couple of solar panels for the house (this is mostly for Californians, where they get a bit of a break currently, though recently introduced legislation from the energy industry may change that).

The thing is, socialists don't say "Don't work hard. Don't make money." You don't have to be poor to be on the Left.

I think, however, most socialists would say, "If you have some money, be smart with it and do things that support your beliefs rather than your status. This doesn't mean you have to live in the projects, just that you should be aware that you're better off than the majority of people."

vox

[antieverything]

Yeah, I just did a report on economic inequality for the english class I'm taking this summer so that I can graduate early. The reason your dad is well of is because the company he works for creates insane amounts of wealth. I'll bet you that the guy who owns this company makes a hell of a lot more than your dad, though. It doesn't matter how rich someone is, when someone is richer there will be social problems. Income inequality is what causes crime, not poverty. When someone is richer because he owns a business and doesn't do any work you will have a serious problem.

[Lefty]

That is true. Vox makes a good point in saying that the beemer really isnt that necessary, but he earned it. But my question still stands, especially when one considers the fact that the boss works so hard almost every day that he doesnt even know his daughters birthday. I think this is horrible in many obvious ways, but it is obvious that the bourgoise, in this case, works just as hard, if not harder, as the proletariat. I am confused about why he doesnt deserve to earn more if he works more, even if it is just petty materialism and the ability to buy the newest Mercedes sports car?

[vox]

Lefty,

I think you may be using two different things to talk of one thing.

We live in a capitalist society. I don't think you're going to argue that. In this system, many people work very hard. That's true, too, of both management (who, for simplicity, can here be called the petty bourgeoise) and the proletariat (for example, a coal miner, for no one, NO ONE, has ever claimed that to be easy work).

When living in a capitalist society, many people can work very hard, but the wealth is not distributed the same, or even nearly the same. When, in a capitalist society, someone who leans to the Left finds himself in a position of having much, then there IS, I think, a responsibility to share.

If, in this same society, one leans to the right, then they feel that hoarding is better than sharing. It's not really difficult to understand.

Beyond that, however, is how this affects you personally. You may enjoy the benefits of your father's labor, but for how long? I'm assuming you'll inherit the estate, so that means for a lifetime.

In the framework of a capitalist society, I think that it's often not how one lives, but what one does with the resources he has that determines, in reality, political consciousness.

vox

[Lefty]

that is very true. You make a good point in that post, but rest assured that if i ever find myself well-off with lots of moolah, i will share. (after getting myself a cool car, ;-))

[j]

Lefty, your situation seems rather common. I'm sure your dad works hard, and has the right to enjoy the fruits of his labor. In the current society, he is doing what is right for himself and for his family. There should be no guilt or shame in a man working hard to provide for his family. Your father is in a position to enjoy the fruits of his labor.

However, you must also keep in mind that there are people who work just as hard as your father yet do not have a nice house or BMW. This is where the inequity lies. Your father probably works as hard as the garbage man but is not compensated in the same way.

In a capitalist society, one who works hard in a particular field can be better off than someone in a different field even though the level of work is the same.

I'm 26 years old, work full time as a teacher, go to graduate school part time and hope one day to own a home. You see, I am a hard worker and in the current capitalist society that I find myself in I am going to use it to my advantage. That may outrage many of you, but it is a reality. Until we are under a socialist system I will own property. You can't go around living by socialist terms when you do not live in a socialist country.

But this does not mean I don't see the inequity. I work day in and day out with students with emotional and behavioral problems. I work within the system to advocate for my students and help my students in a variety of ways. I drive a 97 Honda Accord (which I love) and wouldn't drive a luxury car if I had the money. I see the the inequity daily. There's a guy at the end of my block that dances for money everytime I drive by. I educate myself daily on the issues that are important. I am an outspoken advocate of the rights of the underpriveleged. If all my money didn't go to rent and my car I would donate.

Ya see, we all live in a capitalistic society and have to do what we can within that society. The day of the revolution I will be standing side by side, gun in hand, with my comrades. But tomorrow the gas and phone bill are due. I gotta get my oil changed. I need to buy some food and still have money for rent on the 1st.

j

[Lefty]

thats true, j. It is one of the biggest injustices, in my opinion, of our system that teachers, etc do not earn as much, if not more, than athletes or movie stars. im sorry. my demons have been exorcised. label me as a cappie if you will, but i have said the extent of my cappitalist beliefs.

[glamgirl610]

I like Lefty, hes cute.

[Lefty]

that would be dana, my erstwhile girlfriend or ex or whatever...see chit chat "crazy crazy hormones"

[sickdiscobiscuit]

. . . . . . just keep her in chit chat....

[j]

why should she stay in chit-chat? Maybe she has some intelligent things to say.....

j

[Lefty]

*high fives j*

[Beyond Good and Evil]

I dont think the blame of capitalism rests on people like your father, from what you say he does seem to work very hard and deserve a good life, the working class isnt going to come and string him up for that.

The problem lies with the Capitalists, the robber baron captains-of-industry who pull things like Enrons and Worldcoms and make off with billions of dollars while their workers find themselves unemployed and pennyless, all for the wealth of the elite few. Same goes for the mine owner that doesnt look at the maps and redirect his workers away from the flooded abandoned mine theyre heading for. They are the truely parasitic elements of society who bleed others dry for their own benefit, and they have long out stayed their welcome.

Like j says, you cant live a socialist existance in a capitalist world. Marxism isnt a personal philosophy like existentialism or something truely philosophical, its a political end economic theory. Trying to live like one in this sort of situation has about as much sense as blocking out the traumatic death of a loved one: it doesnt change the reality of the situation.

I dont blame people like your father for the financial woes of the working class. All I would hope for is a politically conscious middle class that realizes their common situation with the less privleged members of the working class and the potential they have together to change the system for the better.

[ratm545]

in lefty's father's case i can see how you label him a bourgisie. and i don't mean to put you through the same argument again, but my dad is a self-employed "athlete" i guess you would call it, he's a professional bowler and every weekend goes to different tournaments to see if he can earn a couple thousand (if that) in the tournaments. he doesn't win all that often so we're definitely not making much money, sometimes he has a winning streak and we'll pull in a decent amount of money, but we have to save that, to get us through his slumps, so we have somethin to pay the bills with. we don't have anything fancy and he works for himself, we make money if he works hard, and we don't if he doesn't. is there anything wrong with this situation?

[Lefty]

i didnt mean hardworking individuals like your father, RATM i mean the baseball players who are striking for a pay raise when they are already the highest paid people in the world...

[ratm545]

i know i wasn't trying to say anything about that, just curious to see what the community thought. is my parental guidance supporting the capital pigs or making a step in the positive direction

[MJM]

Lefty:
We all do what we must to survive. I think each mans work is equal however, the cleaner who cleans the toilets should be paid the same, if not more, as the directors or a corporation.
Cleaning others mess up is harder and more degrading than making sure the workers are working hard enough to ensure maximum profit from their labour.

Your father may be doing the dirty work for the capitalists, making sure the staff do as they're told, laying off excess labour, firing those who don't do as they're ordered to do.
Or perhaps he went to college and paid for a good education so now he's entitled to share in the upper classes way of life.
That's why he gets paid so well, not because he works harder than anyone else. The men on the floor who weren't smart enough or didn't have the financial means to do this have to pay the price for the bad luck forever.

I'm not saying your dad's a bad guy, just lucky to be where he is. For everyone like him, there's probably 20 who never got so lucky.

[Lefty]

there was no luck involved. if the janitor doesnt like his work, why doesnt he go to a community college. if he cant get a loan or whatever from friends, bank or his family, why not just save up? I agree that my dad was lucky to be born into a middle class family with VERY strong work ethic (my grandpa is now worth over 2 million and he always worked middle class jobs, just he worked a lot and invested) but anyone can make it into college and get a degree and get a job. this is what i dont understand about the thread in news about the janitor being fired, where vox and RC seem to be advocating being content with a janitorial job, which i agree is important, hard and necessary, but why not save up for college so you can get a job that doesnt involve scrubbing poo? God, I am going to be kicked off this board now...

[j]

Quote: from Lefty on 12:20 pm on Aug. 21, 2002
but anyone can make it into college and get a degree and get a job.

Not necessarily true. Not everyone can afford college and support themselves at the same time. This is the problem with privatized education.

Don't let the cappies fool you into believing that all you need to have is a strong work ethic and you will prevail. Even if you do prevail, it will be wage labor and you will be subject to your boss. To believe so would mean that equality in America exists for all people--this is a lie!!!! America has great inequities. A poor child DOES NOT have the same opportunity as as wealthy child!!!! This is what is wrong with the capitalist system!!!!!!!!

Lefty, don't back down!!!! Don't let them make you believe that all the poor are just lazy and only need to show ambition!!! This is a world-wide lie!!!!!

j

[pandelemon]

well in the world we live politics is like a food we need to able to survive, here in my country phillipines politics is there life they eat and breath with it. and i hate it the things they are promising to do,.iand our right is being step on by the insane goverment.

[Lefty]

of course the poor child has nowhere near the same opportunity as the rich child, but he still has the opportunity...nevermind

[marxistdisciple]

Most people still have opportunity in Western countries, but just like with wage inequality, opportunity is unequal too.

For instance, although a poor child can go to college, his choice of college will be limited by his parents income, and some families will not be able to afford the fees at all. Although it is possible to work your way from this kind of situation, if you haven't been to college it is less likely you could get a job to support yourself AND afford to go to college. (catch 22) It would take a long long time in any case. Of course, families inherrant these problems, as rich families can inherrit their wealth. (Therefore further increasing and accentuating the class divide.)

If colleges were state funded, none of this would matter. We used to be able to go to university for free here in the UK, and students recieved grants to allow them to pay their way without large debts. When the labour goverment came into power they installed tuition fees and removed grants. However, even now our tuition fees are a pitance compared to what the USAs are like. They say the average student comes out of uni here with about £12,000 of debt (about $18,000 ish) I don't see that as a fair start to life, simply for a having an education.

Some people however can afford to go to an Ivy league school (harvard costs about $40,000 a year apparently, think most people could afford that?) People like Mr W. get into schools like Yale. Do you think he got in on his academic achievements, or maybe the size of his bank ballance? Gross differences in financial background create gross inequalities in every aspect of society.

In fact, as long as a person's worth is measured by an unfair monetary form, these difficulties will inherantly appear. No one can judge someones labour by how much wealth they can create, that is grossly injust,but that is what happens.

[Nateddi]

I wonder what would you say if you were that poor child, living in a crummy apartment with a mother saving most of her money to pay the bills. Where you went to an underfunded public school and your friends smoked weed (or worse) to get away from it all. Yea you still have *opportunity*. As a matter of fact, if you were to be re-born you would live in a scenario far worse than what i've just described, so think before you accept the rightist rhetoric of the fallacy of "equal opportunity". I guess some people are more equal than others, eh lefty?


@marxistdiscipline

great mini-essay comrade, its great to see logic and intelligence flourishing on che-lives.

(Edited by Nateddi at 1:57 am on Aug. 26, 2002)

[Mac OS Revolutionary]

Quote: from Lefty on 5:20 pm on Aug. 21, 2002
there was no luck involved. if the janitor doesnt like his work, why doesnt he go to a community college. if he cant get a loan or whatever from friends, bank or his family, why not just save up? I agree that my dad was lucky to be born into a middle class family with VERY strong work ethic (my grandpa is now worth over 2 million and he always worked middle class jobs, just he worked a lot and invested) but anyone can make it into college and get a degree and get a job. this is what i dont understand about the thread in news about the janitor being fired, where vox and RC seem to be advocating being content with a janitorial job, which i agree is important, hard and necessary, but why not save up for college so you can get a job that doesnt involve scrubbing poo? God, I am going to be kicked off this board now...

Fine, lets assume all blue collar workers do this. Everyone in the western world has a college level of education. Who does the menial labour? Someone has to do it, its an un-avoidable job. Every society relies on its "menial" worker for survival. They are not beneath the scientists and the thinkers, they work in a symbiotic relationship with each other.

Not everyone can has high paying, low labor job.

[hawarameen]

even if you do get into college or uni, what next ive just finished my degree and now i have a £10,000 debt which i cannot pay back. I had to work throughout my university life often having to neglect my college work which had obviously suffered.

how can someone like me compete with anyone who gets everything they need on a silver plate.

hopefully as a result of my own hard work i can buy an adequate house to live in and a car that gets me from a to b.

in my own country to be a doctor or a teacher recieves the utmost respect moreso than a company director for theses people are saving lives and educating our children

[Conghaileach]

There was an article by the Food Rights Watch (I may have posted it here but I honestly can't remember) that said over 40% of Yankee families have to skip at least one dinner a week.

Can you imagine what would happen if a member of one of these families was trying to pay for a university tuition on top of that?

[Lefty]

i think i have been misunderstood...
i am with you on this, Nateddi and others. Its not fair. I dont agree, yadda yadda yadda. However, when people on this board say that janitors deserve as much or more than the company directors, albeit who dont deserve as much as they are getting, thats wrong. (I think MJM said that earlier.) The janitors may have been placed in a menial, tedious, looked-down upon job by no fault of their own, but why should those who went to college for 4 years or more have to earn less than those who didnt?
I agree that doctors and teachers should be paid more, but where do you draw the line? My dad equips ER's with doctors, and he makes damn sure they are all high quality ones, too. In doing this, he has saved many lives, im sure. Without him, many ER's would be understaffed. Should he be revered and paid as much as a doctor? He isnt...


Bah...

[j]

It all really comes down to this--janitors should be paid relatively equal to the company director. Why not? They are both performing duties that allow the business to run. Because the janitor works with his hands he should be paid less? That is crap. And in your scenario they are both laborers for some CEO. That CEO is the one who is making an obnoxious amount of money in comparison to both directors and janitors.

In a capitalist society going to college means making more money. Why is earning potential a motivation for college and not the pursuit of knowledge?

As for your dad--he surely has an important position. He is working in health care and that is not something anyone can take lightly. Anyone who works in healthcare should be paid a respectable wage. From people like your dad to the nurses to the secretaries. They all make the unit function. If your dad was paid a lower wage would he not choose the job he is in? I believe he chose to do what does because he loves the job in and of itself. That is a pure form of motivation.

There is really is no line to draw, Lefty. We are products of a capitalist system that promotes itself in almost everything we see and hear. We need to start thinking differently about work and our roles in society.

You talk of work ethic. Work ethic (as I know it) was not taught as a way to earn money, but as a way to behave in a working environment. I have a strong work ethic and do not get paid well for it. But that is not the point, I work because I want to produce the best product possible (in my case its teaching). However, I have also had shit jobs like supermarkets, restaurants, lawn care, house painting, etc. I still wanted to put forward my best effort and I was proud of my work--that is work ethic.

j

[Lefty]

but then why go to college if you can earn the same amount of money as a janitor?

[MJM]

but then why go to college if you can earn the same amount of money as a janitor?

Quite simply lefty, would you rather help staff a hospital or clean up someone elses shit?
Plenty of motivation I think.
More the reason why they should be on equal pay. A janitor does the hardest job in the world I reckon.

[Lefty]

ah, but it doesnt require an education. while you have convinced me, i doubt you will be able to convince the rest of the world, which is more materialistic than i. The main motivation, according to my dad, for becoming a doctor is the money. If that went away, im not sure that there would be as many doctors...

[peekay]

I'm taking the easy way out
i'm being an artist..not exactly hard work, but then I'll make no money
but I'll be happy

[marxistdisciple]

That's why it's so unfair. If money wasn't an issue, I would like to be a writer, a musician, or just to help people in any way I can. Because I have to pay my rent and my bills, I have to think about money all the time. It's not about what I do to help people, it's about how much my labour is valued as a commodity (even in the public sector). Capitalism seems to distort everything and it makes me bitterly depressed and angry sometimes. I don't know how I can change it...I guess that's how a lot of people here feel though

[Lefty]

but im saying, if a communist revolution happened (obviously not orchestrated by the majority) then would people be willing to give up money for the good of those less fortunate?

[MJM]

A revolution that isn't supported by the majority isn't what I'm looking towards.
So I agree that a revolution by the minority will be unsucessful and unproductive. The counter revolutionary forces will be to strong, also supplied with resources by the bourgeois countries the revolution will fail.
Revolution should be:
1)for the majority
2)for the international working class

[antieverything]

If you don't think that people wouldn't want to be doctors if they don't get paid insane amounts of money just look at Cuba. They have more doctors than they know what to do with.

[Conghaileach]

The situation with teachers is Cuba is roughly the same.

[antieverything]

Yeah. Cuban baseball players refuse million-dollar contracts with the MLB because they say that they would rather stay near their families and communities. Of course the owners and managers assume that they are brainwashed...I think that this is a very interesting example of how greed is conditioned into us by capitalism. Any sociologist will tell you that there is no such thing as human nature...fuck, my sister is GETTING PAID $17,000 a year to attend Harvard and get her PhD in sociology.

[willdie4life]

money as a cause for everything.... a sad but true fact in the world today, your dad lefty, i'm sure he is a hell of a nice guy and is intilted to what he makes, but why arn't i worth a good salary as well? i work a burtal job ( gas jockey ) for what amount to slave wages *7.50 $ cad aka play money *i help ppl every time i turn around and i provid a vital service for an aging socity. strange as it can seem, pumping gas for an senior can be a VERY demadning task, and for all this why do i make next to nothing, for making ppls lives easy? your dad helps save lives, i help make them livable, and i have no qualm with your dad making a comfortable living, but why the hell can't i have one too ? why can opec make billions of dollers off me and not pay me a living wage? with out me and all the other ppl that do the poor paying jobs you wouldn't be able to use your money to buy a big mac , let alone a BMW, i am not asking for equal pay , i am asking for RELIVANT PAY, or baring that enough to know that i am going to eat tommorow.
sorry if this is wandering or offenisve but gotta say wha t i feel

[Conghaileach]

Over here, we have self-serve petrol stations.

[anrkocommie]

Quote: from Lefty on 3:19 am on Sep. 6, 2002
but im saying, if a communist revolution happened (obviously not orchestrated by the majority) then would people be willing to give up money for the good of those less fortunate?


Well, a selling point could be that you don't have to serve a 30 year mortgage any longer when capitalism doesn't make working people bid over each other to force them to work in menial jobs that would absolutely never have existed in the absence of capitalism... long sentence sorry... This is kind of a current issue for me. I can relate to your dad. I also work pretty hard and I am trying to make it in the world on the terms presented. But when I see what lack of reason that rules when working people fuck each other over with absolutely no idea of what's really wrong, I loose faith...

[MJM]

willdie4life

with out me and all the other ppl that do the poor paying jobs you wouldn't be able to use your money to buy a big mac , let alone a BMW, i am not asking for equal pay
Start asking for equal pay comrade, you deserve it!