revolution in the u.s.

[Rebel For Life]

is a u.s revolution posoble? if so when would you think be the best time? what i think is now or 5 months befor bush is out of power my resones for now are meny of our u.s. troops are over in iraq at the moment and even alot of national guard is over there... i think it would be best to start in vermont because they are soooooooo! left-wing and we could get help from cuba my resons for 5 months befor bush is out of ofifce is because he would be a lame-duck and 5 months should be enogh time to acomplish the mission but theseour only my ideas ;)

[Morpheus]

I think the second American revolution will start in 2051. Bush will be in office until January 2009. Unless the draft is reinstated. Then all bets are off.

[redstar2000]

I'm somewhat less optimistic than Morpheus. Based on the projected decline of superstition in the U.S., my estimate is 2090-2110.

Much sooner for western Europe and even Japan, of course.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[NovelGentry]

Japan

Nice call, almost forgot about those guys over there.

But still, you're all wrong -- like I said on another thread: Sunday, May 15th.

[The Grapes of Wrath]

Haha, what? How about trying to predict the Rapture? Or what how many people in the world are going to wear green shirts tomorrow? It's impossible to tell.


is a u.s revolution posoble? if so when would you think be the best time? what i think is now or 5 months befor bush is out of power my resones for now are meny of our u.s. troops are over in iraq at the moment and even alot of national guard is over there... i think it would be best to start in vermont because they are soooooooo! left-wing and we could get help from cuba my resons for 5 months befor bush is out of ofifce is because he would be a lame-duck and 5 months should be enogh time to acomplish the mission but theseour only my ideas

I hope you are joking, because I sure as hell don't see too many people pissed off enough to resort to open violence in the next few weeks or months. Vermont is not that big, and lo and behold! thanks to federalism, if it were to happen, it would more than likely be that state, and very few others.

The capitalists have already hijacked at least 9 or 10 of Marx's 12 main measures of communism as stated in his "Principles of Communism." They are not stupid people. Therefore, most people are relatively "content" with their lives, at least enough to not sanction a violent overthrow of their order, especially in the United States.

I don't know when or if the Revolution will take place. No one really can or will. Science cannot answer it. It is like religious faith, you just have to believe I suppose.

TGOW

[workersunity]

i think in a couple of years

[Brennus]

A revolution will probably occur by the end of this century, if the United States lasts that long.

a) The United States is exporting its industries overseas for cheaper labor. (leading to ever-growing unemployment)

b) The United States is is trillions of dollars in debt and will sooner or later do away with many public programs such as social security.

c) Constant wars are creating an increasingly apathetic view of the government, leading to an eventual refusal of cooperation between the working citizen and the state.

[aztecklaw]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 11:17 PM
A revolution will probably occur by the end of this century, if the United States lasts that long.

a) The United States is exporting its industries overseas for cheaper labor. (leading to ever-growing unemployment)

b) The United States is is trillions of dollars in debt and will sooner or later do away with many public programs such as social security.

c) Constant wars are creating an increasingly apathetic view of the government, leading to an eventual refusal of cooperation between the working citizen and the state.
agreed

[Paradox]

A revolution will probably occur by the end of this century, if the United States lasts that long.

Yeah, cuz with the supervolcano in Yellowstone due for another erruption right about now, there's no telling how much time we got left! :lol:



i think it would be best to start in vermont because they are soooooooo! left-wing and we could get help from cuba

:huh: Start in that tiny corner of the country and get help from Cuba? What could Cuba possibly offer that would play a SIGNIFICANT role in the overthrow of the united states? Sure, they might have good doctors and stuff of that sort, but what exactly do you mean when you say "we could get help from Cuba?" Do you mean military support?

Anyway, my guess is that there'll be outbursts of anger here and there for the next few years, but no actual revolution. 2012, That's the lucky year. :P

[comrade_mufasa]

Originally posted by Rebel For [email protected] 24 2005, 10:00 PM
is a u.s revolution posoble? if so when would you think be the best time? what i think is now or 5 months befor bush is out of power my resones for now are meny of our u.s. troops are over in iraq at the moment and even alot of national guard is over there... i think it would be best to start in vermont because they are soooooooo! left-wing and we could get help from cuba my resons for 5 months befor bush is out of ofifce is because he would be a lame-duck and 5 months should be enogh time to acomplish the mission but theseour only my ideas ;)
um no.
The U$ revolution will only happen after there is first another succesful revolution in another modern industrail country, so that it can help other countries who will in turn help the revolution in the U$. I agree with redstar with 2090-2110.

[VukBZ2005]

Originally posted by comrade_mufasa+Mar 26 2005, 05:55 PM--> (comrade_mufasa @ Mar 26 2005, 05:55 PM)
Rebel For [email protected] 24 2005, 10:00 PM
is a u.s revolution posoble? if so when would you think be the best time? what i think is now or 5 months befor bush is out of power my resones for now are meny of our u.s. troops are over in iraq at the moment and even alot of national guard is over there... i think it would be best to start in vermont because they are soooooooo! left-wing and we could get help from cuba my resons for 5 months befor bush is out of ofifce is because he would be a lame-duck and 5 months should be enogh time to acomplish the mission but theseour only my ideas ;)
um no.
The U$ revolution will only happen after there is first another succesful revolution in another modern industrail country, so that it can help other countries who will in turn help the revolution in the U$. I agree with redstar with 2090-2110. [/b]
1

I do not really agree with such a analysis. All I can say at the present time
is this; a revolution can only occur if (1) A revolutionary situation is created
and it acellerates or (2) whenever the material conditions for it are present.
Predictions about workers' revolutions can and may always end up innacur
-rate because we just do not know when such revolution would occur in the
United States.

2

And Paradox - the supervolcano is not near exploding point yet - so we do not
have to worry for now :D

[NovelGentry]

Anyway, my guess is that there'll be outbursts of anger here and there for the next few years, but no actual revolution. 2012, That's the lucky year.

And in 2008 everyone will at the least know the old way is over? And in 2015 Russia will nuke the territory in the cities held by the authoritarian US government fighting the free rural populations?

Everyone know's skynet will cause us a lot more problems before any revolution actually goes down, at least any man vs. man revolution.

I see your John Titor and Raise you a Terminator.

[RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog]

Revolution in the US will happen...when will depend on the building on means for the working class to unite herself and to start building the workers' movement on the base of a socialist program and tactics.

I am not gonna try to predict the year or something...it will depend on the objective and subjective circumstances, meaning the level of exploitation by and the development of capitalism and the level of consciousness of the working class.

[shadows]

Aw, c'mon. Revolution depends on consciousness and leadership. See much of that in the working class today? U.S. 'democracy' is a very effective bourgeois ideology, reducing class consciousness. Leadership? Or, will everything just happen spontaneously? These two issues, consciousness and leadership, are central to revolution.

[NovelGentry]

and subjective circumstances... and the level of consciousness of the working class.

The level of consciousness is directly related to the objective respective objectivity and reason you stated right before this one. Consciousness is not subjective, it is actually extremely objective and driven by the same material reality. However, that doesn't make it any easier to predict, and that's not to say it can't be accelerated.

[RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 07:44 PM

and subjective circumstances... and the level of consciousness of the working class.

The level of consciousness is directly related to the objective respective objectivity and reason you stated right before this one. Consciousness is not subjective, it is actually extremely objective and driven by the same material reality. However, that doesn't make it any easier to predict, and that's not to say it can't be accelerated.
Although consciousness is caused by objective circumstances it's still a subjective factor, namely depending of the subjects (members of the working class) involved.

[1936]

The revolution will happen when the few revolutionaries there are stop talking over the internet and guessing when its going to happen?

I must have not learnt about the time guevara sat down with fidel and they had a good long chat about when they think its going to happen around them.

REVOLUTION NOT EVOLUTION!

[NovelGentry]

Although consciousness is caused by objective circumstances it's still a subjective factor, namely depending of the subjects (members of the working class) involved.

Indeed, but only in part. As since it has an objective cause, there is a difinitive point where even the most naieve or ignorant person realizes the system for what it is.

Push these conditions, or even make them more clear and you will see results. That itself makes it subjective in that it is whimsical, but not in full.

Anyway... I think as you have made clear in saying you won't, it's fairly pointless to go about making predictions. With that said... Sunday, May 15th.

[NovelGentry]

I must have not learnt about the time guevara sat down with fidel and they had a good long chat about when they think its going to happen around them.

It happened in a prison in Mexico.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

I don't think revolution will occur in the first world so long as the first world bourgeoisie are able to maintain their hegemony and power with the spoils of imperialism. To that end, I think revolutionaries have to start supporting everyone who "Hates America". ;)

(OMGWTFBBQISHESERIOUS?)

Point for discussion though: Third-world revolutions as prequisite for destabilization of first-world nations?

[Rebel For Life]

well sorry to bring this up i dont know if it is true or not but the bible says that bush will creat a nuclear war in the year 2007 destroying the world but im an athiest and so im going with the myen prediction of the end of the world 2011 because thats when there calender ends :ph34r: so we sould start one when bush becomes a lame duck ;) and yes i mean like guns and men and doctors and stuff like that when i say "get help from cuba"

[Paradox]

im an athiest and so im going with the myen prediction of the end of the world 2011 because thats when there calender ends

No, it's 2012. December 23rd, 2012, if I remember the exact date correctly. Nonetheless, it's December 2012. That's why I said 2012 was my guess. Of course that depends on whether or not you believe in prophecies. I don't think the world is going to end however, just that a whole lot of bad things are going to happen (not that they haven't been happening for a long time). And to my knowledge it's not that the world is actually going to end, but that the way we live now is going to end or change, that type of thing. The Mayan crystal skulls also have to do with that in case your interested. The Hopi and many other tribes have similar prophecies, but theirs are flexible, not rigid like biblical prophecies; the future can be altered, that type of thing. Of course, all the bad things that are happening now, that have happened, or will happen could have nothing to do prophetic predictions, and if there is any similarity, it could be just mere coincidence. Anyway, I was just joking about 2012 being the year of revolution (although the Hopi do predict a world-wide struggle against government) here in the u$, too much patriotism, too much acceptance of the system, people aren't yet ready, etc., and I don't think they will be by that time. As was mentioned before, we really can't say when it will happen. It'll happen whenever the people are ready and willing to make it happen. But when it does happen, hopefully I be alive to see it. :ph34r:

[Paradox]

but im an athiest and so im going with the myen prediction of the end of the world 2011

Well, what's the difference between believing in the Mayans' prophecy, and that of the Bible? If your an athiest, why believe in any prophecy? Or was your post meant as a joke? :huh:

[NovelGentry]

Point for discussion though: Third-world revolutions as prequisite for destabilization of first-world nations?

Maybe as destabalization, but NOT as effective socialist revolutions.

The problem that people seem to forget, and I know population increase will have an effect on this, but the US has maintained a fairly isolated existence in the past. As much as resources come from elsewhere, I don't think the US would have an issue, particularly from the bourgeois perspective since it wouldn't be them starving in the streets from underproduction, to actually fold back in on itself and become isolationists again.

Economic instability or even straight out collapse does not mean automatic revolution -- so I'm not sure I follow the logic.

We're still in a position where we have to accelerate class consciousness, and a hell of a lot faster, because I guarantee you libertarians would be all over that crap. (US libertarians that is). And honest to go truth is, most people down in the dumps about how the federal government screwed up diplomatic relations and didn't see this coming... they'd eat it up. I'm actually surprised a lot more people don't follow libertarianism as a return to traditional US ideals.

Anyway, point is, the destabalization gives us a conduit, we still need to find the water in order to build up serious pressure.

Honestly I think it's funny that (and I even see it on this board) communists in America and even elsewhere do not attack liberal America so much as they will attack conservative/republican America. Bush gets a lot of bashing -- and yes, I understand he is the president, but we should be roundabout destroying capitalism, not just the one side.

And those already on the right -- who are more left leaning probably have better chances at seeing what's really up.

I think there's a number of strategies that actually work, but honestly, I just think things really have to get a whole lot worse right now for your everyday worker to realize where the problem lies.


i dont know if it is true or not but the bible says that bush will creat a nuclear war in the year 2007

Yeah, it's actually littered throughout the bible --

Mark 2:17 -- And he that be named like the tree shall bring hell unto thee.
Genisis 1:21 -- There will be a time when George W. Bush destroys the world
John 4:12 -- That thing they were talking about in Genisis will happen in 2007.

[Paradox]

i dont know if it is true or not but the bible says that bush will creat a nuclear war in the year 2007


Yeah, it's actually littered throughout the bible --

Mark 2:17 -- And he that be named like the tree shall bring hell unto thee.
Genisis 1:21 -- There will be a time when George W. Bush destroys the world
John 4:12 -- That thing they were talking about in Genisis will happen in 2007.

:lol:
Post of the day! Get's my vote! :lol:

EDIT: hope you don't mind Gent, but I put this^ in my sig.

[Famepollution]

Revolutions only happen when the People loath their current conditions and since the majority of americans Love their government and way of life, a revolution aint in our immediate future. Unless Of course Bob Avakian uses the all mighty power of dialectical materialism to summone the spirit of mao to coerce the american peasants into revolution. Then Of course the revolution will be an overnight affair and we'll all start working for our great leader tommorrow :D

But in all seriousness, america is still leaning towards the right what with the reelection of King george and all. although there is growing dissent, It is relitively all of the"if we vote Democrat it will fix everything" type. Perhaps more deaths in Iraq, two faced Demoncrats, and more Walmart type business would quicken the revolution process. Even then I dont see one occuring in the U.S. before 1950.

[Famepollution]

woops .... Meant 2050... sorry

[refuse_resist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 11:30 PM
:huh: Start in that tiny corner of the country and get help from Cuba? What could Cuba possibly offer that would play a SIGNIFICANT role in the overthrow of the united states? Sure, they might have good doctors and stuff of that sort, but what exactly do you mean when you say "we could get help from Cuba?" Do you mean military support?
In the past they've given refuge to revolutionaries. Most notably members of the Black Panther Party.

[Ell Carino]

There will not be a revolution as long as corrupt masons have everyone attached by strings. It would also help if the majority of America turned their back on Christianity too.

[Paradox]

In the past they've given refuge to revolutionaries. Most notably members of the Black Panther Party.

Yes, but I was asking what SIGNIFICANT role will they play. I was talking more about aid in the form of supplies such as medicines, ammunition, weapons, possibly troops, if the revolution is not a nationalist, which I guess it wouldn't be if it accepted aid from Cuba and Cuba played a key role in the revolution's success. However, I'm not sure Cuba could play a significant role. Sure they could supply plenty of military support, but what is the quality and effectiveness of their weaponry -should they supply it- in comparison with that of the u$? Is it as advanced? Would it stand a chance against u$ technology? I know they have high quality healthcare, but I'm pretty much in the dark as to their military capability. Please enlighten me if you know anything about that.


It would also help if the majority of America turned their back on Christianity too.

Though it might not appear that way at first, wouldn't you say strict adherance to religion -Christianity being the major one- is fading, albeit slowly? Religious holidays like Christmas and Easter have become commercialized, a lot of people claim to be religious, but don't really follow the rules, commandments, as they are told, and even the Terri Shiavo thing shows most people, even among the religious and republicans, think that the feeding tube should have been removed. Of course, there are those who are still holding to Christianity, but even though it's a slow abandonment, it looks as though it is fading away. Of course, that could just be the way it seems to me, from the people I know (my mother an exception), and I don't have any figures, so I'm only guessing. Anybody have any figures or more information about Christianity/religion in the u$? Would you say it's fading or gaining? :huh:

[Jesus Christ!]

I agree with statements that were made before, that there would have to be another first world country to have a successful revolution before the U$ has it's revolution. I also think it would be a much more powerful thing if there were a bunch of successful revolutions in 3rd world countries. I mean their living standards are so poor so they would have a lot more to revolt about than what many U$ citizens see for a need to revolt. Also if many 3rd world countries became communist they could be either a safe haven for communist to move to or a support system for a larger state to become communist such as the U$.

[RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog]

Originally posted by Rebel For [email protected] 26 2005, 10:38 PM
well sorry to bring this up i dont know if it is true or not but the bible says that bush will creat a nuclear war in the year 2007 destroying the world but im an athiest and so im going with the myen prediction of the end of the world 2011 because thats when there calender ends :ph34r: so we sould start one when bush becomes a lame duck ;) and yes i mean like guns and men and doctors and stuff like that when i say "get help from cuba"
First off I know for a fact the Bible doesn't say anything about a nuclear war....I have enough christian friends who would told me if it did.

Second we can change the destiny of the world: as long as we continue to threaten our environment, there'll probably be a big environmental disaster in the future (but I don't believe in exact predictions which aren't based on scientific facts, like for instance the collision of a comet with the earth).

[RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog]

Revolutions only happen when the People loath their current conditions and since the majority of americans Love their government and way of life, a revolution aint in our immediate future.


Do you really think most Americans are happy with their government and their current live of exploitation, mass unemployment, no health ensurance etc? I don't think so.... :(


But in all seriousness, america is still leaning towards the right what with the reelection of King george and all. although there is growing dissent, It is relitively all of the"if we vote Democrat it will fix everything" type. Perhaps more deaths in Iraq, two faced Demoncrats, and more Walmart type business would quicken the revolution process. Even then I dont see one occuring in the U.S. before 1950.

There's a reason that people vote for a right-wing president as long as there's no REAL ALTERNATIVE. When things aren't going well, people seek someone to put the blame on. For instance in the USA there's a lot of unemployment and a lot of people live in poverty.

Workers don't blame their bosses, because there is not yet the level of consciousness of people understanding that their bosses are causing unemployment and poverty, so they go and blame their collegues of foreign origin "who come and take their jobs away". Sounds familiar right?

Not only objective circumstances create the base for a revolution: there's also a need for a political power to put the cause of the working class forward. So a mass workers party (and the union that goes with it) needs to be build on the base of socialist ideas with a revolutionary socialist organisation discussing with the workers about tactics and strategy to reach socialism.

[RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 09:17 PM

In the past they've given refuge to revolutionaries. Most notably members of the Black Panther Party.

Yes, but I was asking what SIGNIFICANT role will they play. I was talking more about aid in the form of supplies such as medicines, ammunition, weapons, possibly troops, if the revolution is not a nationalist, which I guess it wouldn't be if it accepted aid from Cuba and Cuba played a key role in the revolution's success. However, I'm not sure Cuba could play a significant role. Sure they could supply plenty of military support, but what is the quality and effectiveness of their weaponry -should they supply it- in comparison with that of the u$? Is it as advanced? Would it stand a chance against u$ technology? I know they have high quality healthcare, but I'm pretty much in the dark as to their military capability. Please enlighten me if you know anything about that.


It would also help if the majority of America turned their back on Christianity too.

Though it might not appear that way at first, wouldn't you say strict adherance to religion -Christianity being the major one- is fading, albeit slowly? Religious holidays like Christmas and Easter have become commercialized, a lot of people claim to be religious, but don't really follow the rules, commandments, as they are told, and even the Terri Shiavo thing shows most people, even among the religious and republicans, think that the feeding tube should have been removed. Of course, there are those who are still holding to Christianity, but even though it's a slow abandonment, it looks as though it is fading away. Of course, that could just be the way it seems to me, from the people I know (my mother an exception), and I don't have any figures, so I'm only guessing. Anybody have any figures or more information about Christianity/religion in the u$? Would you say it's fading or gaining? :huh:
I guess when revolution would spread to the entire of Latin (South-)America...and there would be a socialist confederation of all Latin-American countries....then these countries together could be strong enough in economic development to have their own economic policy based on democratic centralism and socialist ideas so the revolution could be spread into the USA.

But also a revolution in a couple of (more economically developed) countries in Europe (for instance the changing of the EU to a socialist confederation of states) or Asia could help support a revolution in the USA.

[Lamanov]

Hahaha... :D

2044 - world economic crisis
2045 - start of the massive demonstrations, strikes, and syndical activity in EU and Russia (also part of the EU)
2046 - uhmmm, lets say October :P Starts in Mexico, Brazil, Chile, Bolivia, Venezuela and all over Latin America - US economy gets damaged
2047 - In urban areas all over 3rd world industrial workers overthrow governments and take controll - India, southern and western Africa, Indonesia... Revolution in Northen Africa
EU economy falls, European middle class loseses all financial income, GLOBAL DOMINATION OF FINANCIAL CAPITAL FALLS , working class goes to its last strike.
November 2050 - urban population ovethrows capitalist Europe, democratic proletarian European Union gets established - Euroasian socialst federation.
2051 - USA, Canada, Pakistan, Iran, Australia and surviving OPEC countries form a capitalist coalition.
2052 - Chinese workers overthrow bonapartist dictatureship.
by 2054 - Latin America, Europe+Russia, China, SE Asia, Indonesia, Africa turn red. Socialist constitution gets voted out in the newely formed United Socialst Globe.
by 2073 - capitalist coalition fails due to economic ineficiency. Revolutions.
by 2119 - proclamation of global socialism.

:lol: nice scenario, isn't it?

[RockinTheLxSxDx2]

this is just my opinion but i think the american revolution could happen very soon if \ the conditions are treated right and We educated the masses truths outa lies the american media is distributing as well as the goverment. i was suprised to find out my parents didnt know that when ever bush had a campeign debate everyone was pre screened to make sure they were republicans. if you get the truth out it would only be a matter of time. with education many seem to becoming more aware about the evils of capitalism especialy since the cold war erra is almost gone. also lets take a look at the conditions you see these days in america unemployment high and some people have to work 2 jobs at a time to help bring up there family in a some what livable enviorment. such conditions usualy bread radicalist feelings. ive seen familys having to seperate just to try and stay financialy afloat. people are increasingly angered over our voting system with electorial colledges.
with the growth of the internet and site like this helping educate the masses its very possible you could have an american revolution soon enough. sorry for the rambling

[More Fire for the People]

America will be consumed in revolution when South America and Mexico proletarian realise the revolutionary powers they posses.

America will then two choices: (1) Continue to be a reactionary-capitalist nation and become subject to a hostile revolution or peacefully transfer power to the workers.

It is our job now to educate and prepare the working class and try to make the transition to socialism as easy as possible.

Maybe a few of us (and by a few, I mean a few hundred) socialist / communist / anarchist should travel to Mexico and northern South America to educate the working class there and prepare them for revolutionary war.

[rebelworker]

serriously, to those of you who think the revolution will happen in the next 10-20 years...

There are no significant sectors of the population who are even remotly engaged in revolutionary activity(as opposefd to some parts of europe where workers still fight the cops on a large scale).

There are no significant revolutionary organisations, this includes groups that say they are revolutionary but are just newspapers and debate societys.

Three the economy in the US is way too strong right now, even if it were to totaly collapse the impending caos would most defenitly be filled by the religeous right.

It takes generations to build a grassroots revolutionary culture and movements. Lets roll up our sleves. Short term thinking leads to dissulusionment, think long term, extreemly long term, they mabey we might suprise ourselves, if not we will atleast leave something significant for future revolutionaries to work with.

IN solidarity

[MKS]

"What better time than now, what better place than here"!

Any revolution in America would have to be a seccession/defense revoltuion and not an active offensive war. Socialist in America should fight for a Socialist state within America. I think its possible, but would be costly.

Stand up and fight and they will join you. Sit down and dictate and they will fight against you.

[colombiano]

I think the elimination of the middle class will be the starting point. Keep in mind that we are already seeing signs of the growing gaps between rich and the poor as well as the slow deterioration of the middle class. The U$ economy is slipping with the gradual transition to a service industry economy. Examples of this are out there now as we speak. More and more college graduates are graduating only to get jobs working at Walmart , waiting tables at Applebees or working a low level white collar job (Bill Collectors). Also don't forget the current healthcare crisis 44 million no healthcare coverage. The next 20 years I would say are the beginning of the End.

[Eastside Revolt]

Originally posted by Virgin Molotov [email protected] 26 2005, 10:20 PM
Point for discussion though: Third-world revolutions as prequisite for destabilization of first-world nations?
I'm not 100% sure that 3rd world revolutions are going to be the only prerequisite for 1st world decline. Aswell, I don't see it as likely that 3rd world revolutionaries are going to take a historical materialist perspective. We sure as hell can't wait for inpsiration from the 3rd world anymore. That being said, you may be right in that an important fight, is going to occur in 3rd world slums over reason or superstition, however I don't think it looks good so far.

[Colombia]

The more jobs that go overseas, the more likely change will occur but I doubt it would be socialist in a very important way.