Originally posted by Latin
[email protected] 27 2005, 06:53 AM
Inti Posted on Mar 26 2005, 08:31 PM
QUOTE (Latin America @ Mar 25 2005, 10:37 PM)
And just because the situation is bad in Perú you think that the SL are right to kill civilians? That is really good reasoning right there. Oh, Peru is in a bad situation, better call in SL and let them kill civilians? Ok, the SL got officials and some soldiers, but the majority was civilians..
Its good that you know the situation in Perú and I couldnt agree any more than you that Perú is in deep shit and its not the government officials or the rich people paying the price. What I would suggest would be to educate the people and to vote, not joining some bandit gang like SL who terrorised the farmers, stole the food and killed them and so on. Its a shame that a big and beautiful country like Perú cant find a single good enough leader that isnt corrupt. I really hope that the people wont take the Galan Garcia as their president again. It seems that many people have forgotten the misdeeds he did at his time as president in Perú. That is just also the thing. Many people in the provinces doesnt have a tv, radio and many dont read or are not able to read the papers, and then a team from a president candidate comes with 5 kilos of rice, promises of building a school and what have you, and the people think, wow this guy is nice and vote for him. Its disgusting seeing those campaigns. Alejandro Toledo is just a bad alcoholic with expensive habits, buying his etiqueta azul whenever he can and sending his wife Elian Karpa to do shopping in Milano or Florida.. I wonder when the people will elect someone not that bad.. Castañeda isnt too good either, although last time I was in Lima they had taken away the malvinas market and put up some trees and shit, otherwise it was the same as ever, only a little bit more rateros due to the christmas.
The only thing people over there has is their families, thats usually the only kind of security they have. Its a dog eat dog world and it sucks.
And if you ask me what reason I have to become angry when some guy who thinks that the terrucos is a good thing? My number one reason is all of the family members of my wife who has died because some deranged loonies felt like killing them in the name of SL, perhaps?
You put me in front of one of these sons of *****es terrucos and I will do everything in my power to destroy him...
See Inti, I am rigth or not so much wrong shit!!! politician in Latin America are a piece of shit, when somebody wants to do something and eventually it seems he can do a change what happens? He gets kill or at least they do something to him. Tell me how can you do it then Inti? How can you make a difference? How can you change so much corruption? How can you feed so many children? How can you cure so many men and womans? I apreciate life and I love my country, something needs to be done in Latin America if the voice of the people does not work then violence will. If SL is a group of revolutionaries in Peru that stands agains poverty then I must support them, a change has to come to Peru inocent people will die as in any other conflicts. What about the future generations what about the millions of childrens in peru rigth now? In Sweeden you probably have a nice confi bed while some peruvian children are sleeping in the streets of Lima. Where is the fucking human conscience? that's why we are diferents Inti we are all leftists here, we know what is wrong and what is right thats why all right wingers out there only talk shit, we care about our families and we try to be fair among people; we care about social problems! I have read and seen to much bad thing about our America, it is time for a better life in Peru and the rest of the continent.
Thats the thing. The SL says that they are against poverty, but they cant end the poverty by killing the people they say they want to liberate. If one is supposed to take the power by force via a revolutionary movement, I think that the thing you have to do is to have the support of the people, not killing them. What kind of base is that to build from if you are killing everybody? I dont think that a change can come from one night to another, its a slow process. Perhaps you should send some books about Che Guevara to the Senderistas and use a highliter on the parts where Che said that you need the support of the campesinos and not just going into their houses or their farms and steal the food and kill the family.
I wouldnt mind supporting a movement that really was a movement of the people, a grassroot movement that actually would feel that the thing they were helping was for the better. You cant have a popular movement by terrorising ordinary people, you have to go for the officials, soldiers and what have you.
I feel its rather important point also that talking about the SL, the majority of the victims were the indigenous people, people with little or no education, SL didnt attack the well educated people that much, why? More than 40% of the SLs victims were in the Ayacucho region and some 15% in the Junin region, when about 1-2% was in the Lima-Callao region. What does that say?
Just for a comparison: If the victims over the whole country would take the same toll as Ayacucho, some 1,2 million people wouldve been killed or lost and of this quantity it would have been about 340 000 in Lima.. Imagine that.
And also as a result of the conflict between SL and the government, four of the most affected regions are amongst the five poorest as of today - Huancavelica, Ayacucho, Apurimac and Huanuco.
Only about 12% of the victims of the SL were authorities, like judges, police, military, politicians, mayors and so on. If the numbers were the opposite, that the 12% were the campesinos, perhaps it would have been easier to swallow, but those numbers make me think that the goal of SL wasnt just to overthrow the government but perhaps also trying to to some serious genocide. The majority of the victims were in fact indigenous people, many of whom didnt have spanish as their first language..
Ok, enough.. :unsure:
And yes my friend, I live pretty protected here in Norway and I cant complain about my bed or anything else here. Up here most of the people have the luxury to complain about high taxation, bad weather or bad food and it makes me sick sometimes, but thats the human nature I guess, the more you have the less content are the people at times.
I love Perú and I wish it would not have an insanely high criminality and poverty, but I hope that little by little the people will get their minds straight and start try to make a change for the country. I dont know the right way, I only know whats not the right way and that is the SL way.
I cant change the whole world or even a country or a town, but together with my wife we are helping our family in Perú and also the people in our barrio in Lima when we are there. Only small things, not any revolutionary or big dangerous and heroic things really.
We had a homeless kid over at christmas and we did as usually only the pitucos do, we took the kid in, gave him food, clothes and gifts. He was playing in the streets of Lima but he lived like 1 hour away from the centre. We told him that he could come back whenever he liked, but he didnt take up the offer it seems.
We joined a group of young people also that makes theatre give the streetkids food, chocolatadas and gifts for christmas.
That kind of small things I think can have an impact on people, rather than shooting people. I have no illusion that I would be a Rambo or a Che if they gave me a rifle, but I do small things that I can do.
Right now Im pretty stuck here in Norwayi with work and wife so its pretty difficult for me to travel around the world like I used to and do voluntary work as I did in Mozambique, but I think these things are needed in some cases.
Sorry if I went a little bit off topic :rolleyes:
If you can get a hold of it, I would recommend that you get the book I linked for you before with the statistics made of an ONU about the conflict in Peru. I think its by far the most unbiased I have found and it says a lot of things about the bad things the police and the military did as well. The battle wasnt one sided, and for me the government have also been big assholes. Either way its always the civilians who have to pay the price.
I recommend a movie called Paloma de Papel if you havent already seen it. It touches the subject from the times when the SL and government were fighting the most. Its a movie made by a director/actor Fabrizio Aguilar from Peru. The homepage for the movie is PALOMA DE PAPEL (http://www.palomadepapel.com)
Anyway, like you said in the other thread, even if we might have differences, we dont have to be enemies. :P
refuse_resist wrote: A lot of people tend to forget too quickly that the US goes around training right-wing paramilitary forces whom they label "freedom fighters". These are the ones who go around killing innocent people. Usually the case is they train these reactionaries to carry out atrocities so they can put the blame on the Maoists.
People actually lived better under the protection of Sendero Luminoso than they did under government controlled areas. This is something a lot of people don't look into because they've been spoon fed the same garbage over and over again that the SL is some sort of terrorist organization.
But anyway, I think in recent years Latin America as a whole has been moving more towards the left and class consciousness has been increasing. People are beginning to realize the horror of economic globalization and are beginning to resist it.
As for people living better under the protection of SL, please explain to me, how do you feel that they lived better, did you live under the protection of SL?? :unsure:
I dont deny that the US is/were prowling around all over latinamerica like the plague and if I dont remember wrong some of the military of Perú were trained in the school of americas, but I dont think that they did many operations disguised as SL. Its disgusting how US has its hands everywhere, but the SL doesnt have any excuses.
Fernando wrote: I cant agree with you more, I kinda feel guilty about that sometimes, that Im all the way over here and unable to do something about the situation. Im going to study Latin American Cultures and Languages next year which enables me to sgo to study in a Latin American country of choice, and it would give me a better persective of the situation there perhaps, but at least would greatly improve my spanish
Thumbs up for you man. I wish you best of luck and hope you will learn a lot and dont worry about the spanish, you will learn it in no time.. Do you know where you want to go? :)