Log in

View Full Version : Anarchism in Action



The Feral Underclass
22nd March 2005, 17:12
I cannot find the thread where this debte was happening, but some people were discussing anarchism in practice and you gave, what I believe, to be an unfair criticism of the anarchist history.


Originally posted by Severian
Those are still the limits of anarchist behavior in a revolutionary crisis.

Anarchists have to accept our failures in terms of achieving a defeat of a state power, capitalist or socialist, but Leninists must also recognise our success if you want to analyse and criticise our history. Success' which are almost always ignored.

The Spanish anarchists collectivised vast areas of rural and urban Spain and applied anarchist principles to modes of organisation and distribution. This was a success. It is fact.

The failure to maintain this success can, I admit, be put down to your argument. The state was stronger, which is what your argument amounts to.

Yes, the state was stronger and the anarchists, especially in Spain, had to concede defeat, but I think one should look at how that defeat arouse.

Was it because the anarchist theory is flawed? or, is it because the tactics employed by that specific group of people, at that specific moment in history was flawed.

Leninists attempt to argue the latter, but if this was the case, how did the CNT-FAI manage to collectivise and organise cities and rural collectives to such a degree that in many parts production actually increased.

If anarchist theory is flawed how then were the anarchists able to offer real control to the workers and peasants in Catalonia, Barcelona and Aragon? Control which gave them direct power over their means of production.

The CNT joined the Popular Front government in an effort to maintain support for the collectives among professional politicians. This was their fatal error.

Instead of creating arms and organising the workers and peasants into a mass army, the CNT tried the soft approach used so often by bourgeois socialists and liberals. To talk nicely to them and try to compromise.

In 1936 popular support for the Collective of Aragon forced the Popular Front government to recognise the collective. The CNT believed that collaboration and trust would be enough to protect the collectives from the state.

What nonsense! Instead of arming the anarchist brigades to fight the fascists the popular front government demanded that the anarchists lay down their arms and depend on the Popular Army.

The anarchists largely accepted this, but the FAI split and 'Friends of Durruti' was created. They called for a 'Revolutionary Workers Junta' which would have seen the workers within the anarchist collectives organised and prepared to defend themselves against the state. This led to confrontation with the Assault Guards (former [feared] bourgeois special police unit) and government forces.

Instead of fighting the fascists the Stalinist led Popular Front government attacked the Barcelona collective and invaded Catalonia.

The CNT was betrayed. After losing time, without arms or the production of them, against a well armed and Stalin backed army, there was absolutely no practical way that the collectives could have been defended.

The Assault guards attacked and dissolved the Council of Aragon, smashed the collectives and which led to the collapse of Aragon front; held against the fascists by anarchist brigades. The fascists were in Madrid by 1939.

The Spanish civil war and the collectives did not fail because the theory was flawed, it failed because they were betrayed by Leninists, who in the end, simply had more guns.

Eddie Conlon said in his pamphlet 'The Spanish Civil War: Anarchism in Action'; (http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/spain/pam_intro.html)


"The Spanish Revolution does not negate anarchism. If anything, long before Poland, Czechoslovakia or Hungary it showed the bankruptcy of Stalinism and the State Capitalism of Russia. The activities of the Stalinists were far from what real socialists would have done. On the other hand the anarchist masses threw themselves into a fight against fascism, and its cause, capitalism. Unfortunately the revolution was not complete, the CNT leaders held it back. Indeed their behaviour highlights the effect that power can have on even those who lay claim to anarchism. Spain provided important lessons for anarchists. It showed the inadequacy of syndicalism, the need for political anarchism and the need for an anarchist political organisation. We have to understand that the state and political power does not 'die'; it has to be smashed."

Tactical and practical errors. Errors which lessons can easily be drawn.

Severian
22nd March 2005, 20:27
Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 22 2005, 11:12 AM
The anarchists largely accepted this, but the FAI split and 'Friends of Durruti' was created. They called for a 'Revolutionary Workers Junta' which would have seen the workers within the anarchist collectives organised and prepared to defend themselves against the state.
Good for them.

'Course a "Revolutionary Workers' Junta" sounds a lot like the nucleus of a revolutionary workers' and farmers' government.

So here we still have anarchists unable to act on their theories in a revolutionary crisis, when the question is posed, who will hold state power? Anarchist theory attempts to dodge this, but in a revolution, it becomes much harder to dodge important political questions in practice.

In every revolution where anarchists have been present as a significant force - not just Spain '36 - they have been unable to hold to their anti-state stance and have supported one or another government. See Engels on Spain 1873, as pasted by Colombia in
this recent thread. (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=33670&st=0). Or Russia 1917, the range runs from Kropotkin's support to the Provisional Government and the war, through Makhno autocratically leading his own mini-state, to the "soviet anarchists" who joined in defending the Bolshevik-led government.

The CNT-FAI leadership's actions in Spain '36, in supporting the bourgeois Spanish republic, and joining the bourgeois Catalan government, are not the betrayal of anarchism, but its typical behavior when the chips are down.

As for anarchism's alleged successes in Spain '36...only if your goal is to be tragically and heroically crushed, giving future generations the chance to wax romantic over your doomed dream. They succeeded there.

If your goal is to win, to transform the world...then Spain is a failure, pure and simple. It's not worth much to build something if you can't defend it. Franco won, the workers were crushed (heck partly crushed even under the Republic). It took decades for workers in Spain to recover and launch new struggles.

Not, you will notice, under anarchist leadership. Fool me once, fool me twice, all that.

BTW, it's not such a great practice to start threads under people's usernames, rather than the issue under discussion.

The Feral Underclass
23rd March 2005, 08:43
Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 09:27 PM
'Course a "Revolutionary Workers' Junta" sounds a lot like the nucleus of a revolutionary workers' and farmers' government.
Sounds like, maybe.


So here we still have anarchists unable to act on their theories in a revolutionary crisis, when the question is posed, who will hold state power? Anarchist theory attempts to dodge this, but in a revolution, it becomes much harder to dodge important political questions in practice.

It doesn't become harder at all. You can either support a state and it's government or you can oppose it.

In most instances the anarchists have opted to support these governments, this, which is my point, was a mistake.


In every revolution where anarchists have been present as a significant force - not just Spain '36 - they have been unable to hold to their anti-state stance and have supported one or another government.

Which was a mistake.


Or Russia 1917, the range runs from Kropotkin's support to the Provisional Government and the war, through Makhno autocratically leading his own mini-state, to the "soviet anarchists" who joined in defending the Bolshevik-led government.

That was then.

The point of what I was saying is to highlight the mistakes that were made, specifically to the Spanish civil war.

The anarchists supported the Bolsheviks, they supported the Popular Front and they were betrayed every time.


The CNT-FAI leadership's actions in Spain '36, in supporting the bourgeois Spanish republic, and joining the bourgeois Catalan government, are not the betrayal of anarchism, but its typical behaviour when the chips are down.

First of all, the chips weren't down in Spain. The anarchists were in a very strong position when they decided to join the Popular Front government.

They did that, not because the theory was bankrupt, but because they were presented with material questions, which they responded to. I'll say it again: This was a mistake.

The CNT should have been prepared for this, they should have listened and trusted the theory allot more and they should have adopted the Friends of Durruti's line long before.


As for anarchism's alleged successes in Spain '36...only if your goal is to be tragically and heroically crushed, giving future generations the chance to wax romantic over your doomed dream. They succeeded there.

Will you ever acknowledge the success' of the collectives? Why are these facts so easily brushed aside?

Your whole reply has been an evasion and you quickly skim over the main point of my argument by being completely dismissive.

Anarchist organisation both politically and economically worked, and you are going to have to accept that. The facts are glaring you in the face.


If your goal is to win, to transform the world...then Spain is a failure, pure and simple.

What specifically failed? The answer is the tactics employed by the CNT. Not the theory.


It's not worth much to build something if you can't defend it.

Having such a large area of production I am sure the anarchists could have easily defended themselves, they had the time and resources to produce their own weapons, if they hadn't been so trusting.

If they had been consistent in their understanding of the relations of power and authority they would never have put their faith in professional politicians.

It's a mistake the anarchist movement has learnt.


Franco won, the workers were crushed (heck partly crushed even under the Republic). It took decades for workers in Spain to recover and launch new struggles.

Can we agree on why that happened?

Franco crushed the workers because the Stalinist backed Popular Front government split the anti-fascist forces by smashing the anarchist collectives and destroying the Aragon front.

Severian
23rd March 2005, 11:09
Originally posted by The Anarchist Tension+Mar 23 2005, 02:43 AM--> (The Anarchist Tension @ Mar 23 2005, 02:43 AM)
[email protected] 22 2005, 09:27 PM
'Course a "Revolutionary Workers' Junta" sounds a lot like the nucleus of a revolutionary workers' and farmers' government.
Sounds like, maybe.


So here we still have anarchists unable to act on their theories in a revolutionary crisis, when the question is posed, who will hold state power? Anarchist theory attempts to dodge this, but in a revolution, it becomes much harder to dodge important political questions in practice.

It doesn't become harder at all. You can either support a state and it's government or you can oppose it.

In most instances the anarchists have opted to support these governments, this, which is my point, was a mistake [/b]
A passive or purely negative rejection of a state, without proposing an alternative like, say, a workers' and farmers' government, is a political evasion. Which, like other political evasions, becomes harder to sustain in a revolutionary crisis.

And as I've shown and you seem to admit, no anarchist group has in fact managed to sustain their anti-state position in such a crisis. Perhaps you're only admitting it as to "most", but you haven't given any counterexamples.


That was then.

And those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Sometimes as farce.


The anarchists supported the Bolsheviks, they supported the Popular Front and they were betrayed every time.

How were the "soviet anarchists" betrayed exactly? Yes, those anarchists who took up arms against the Bolsheviks were suppressed, but those who supported the Bolsheviks never were.


First of all, the chips weren't down in Spain. The anarchists were in a very strong position when they decided to join the Popular Front government.

Bubba, the chips are always down in a revolutionary crisis. That's when every tendency claiming to be revolutionary is given its acid test. That's when we get to see if they can put their money where their mouth is.

If you don't get that, you don't have what it takes to be a revolutionary.

I agree their position was strong...so much less the excuse for that betrayal.



Will you ever acknowledge the success' of the collectives? Why are these facts so easily brushed aside?

Because they're irrelevant.

It would take time and effort to verify your claims as to economic productivity, for example; and why should I take that time? It's not an example to be followed if it can't defend itself.



Anarchist organisation both politically and economically worked, and you are going to have to accept that. The facts are glaring you in the face.

Bubba, you don't seem to know what a fact is. An unverified claim by you is not a fact.

But our disagreement here is not primarily about facts; rather we have different criteria for whether an organization "worked." I have the expectation that an organization should be able to resist being squished by the capitalists. You, for some unexplained reason, apparently don't.


It's a mistake the anarchist movement has learnt.

Really? How?

Seems to me that anarchists' theory and program are little different now than then. Aside from "anti-civilization" crap and other stuff which is definitely not an improvement.

If any anarchist has done any serious analysis of why anarchists are so prone to making this "mistake", or proposed any changes to keep it from happening in the future...I haven't seen it. Certainly not in your posts.

Typically, Spain '36 is held up as a positive example, not a cautionary one. When anarchists do address the CNT-FAI leadership's betrayal...it's usually in response to criticism by Marxists. Spain 1893 is ignored, Kropotkin is still honored as a political ancestor with his support to the Provisional Government and WWI glossed over or ignored....

And when they are criticized, nobody that I've seen ever says that these people were not anarchists.

In all respects way behind, say, the communist criticism of bureaucratic regimes and parties which falsely claimed to be communist.


Can we agree on why that happened?

Franco crushed the workers because the Stalinist backed Popular Front government split the anti-fascist forces by smashing the anarchist collectives and destroying the Aragon front.

Heh. The workers were crushed....because the bad, evil capitalist government (which the Popular Front government was) attacked them.

You might as well complain about rain being wet, or tigers refusing to be vegan.

No.

The workers were crushed because there was no large, influential revolutionary party. They were crushed because they had an opportunity to take state power and failed to do so. If a revolutionary crisis isn't resolved one way, it's sooner or later (usually sooner) resolved in the other direction.

These things happened in large part because the parties which claimed to represent workers' interests...didn't. That includes the CNT-FAI.

As for why Franco won the war...the only way to beat him was for workers to take power and wage a revolutionary war. The capitalist government of the Republic could not do this....with or without aid from the anarchist collectives on the Aragon front.

The Feral Underclass
23rd March 2005, 15:26
Originally posted by Severian+Mar 23 2005, 12:09 PM--> (Severian @ Mar 23 2005, 12:09 PM) A passive or purely negative rejection of a state, without proposing an alternative like, say, a workers' and farmers' government, is a political evasion. [/b]
I am quite happy to pose an alternative to the state as being a workers or farmers government if you can define to me what a government is?


And as I've shown and you seem to admit, no anarchist group has in fact managed to sustain their anti-state position in such a crisis.

In every example, I am aware of, anarchists have not been able to destroy a state to the point of successfully win a revolution.

I'd like to point out however, and this is not a substitute for an argument, neither have Marxists.


Because they're irrelevant.

And this is the crux of it, isn't it? Anything which is not strictly classical Marxian is by it's very nature, irrelevant. Regardless of the success'.


It would take time and effort to verify your claims as to economic productivity, for example; and why should I take that time?

Because you are attempting to refute the validity of a theory without accepting all the facts.

You claim anarchism was unsuccessful, but that isn't true. There were many success' which validate the theory.


Bubba, you don't seem to know what a fact is. An unverified claim by you is not a fact.

Anarchist Sampler: The Spanish Civil War (http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5065/spain.html)

Homage to Catalonia (http://www.george-orwell.org/Homage_to_Catalonia/)

Anarchism in Action: The Spanish Civil War (http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/spunk/Spunk336.html)

The Spanish Civil War: From Syndicalism to Fascism (http://question-everything.mahost.org/History/SpanishCivilWar.html)


I have the expectation that an organization should be able to resist being squished by the capitalists. You, for some unexplained reason, apparently don't.

I'm sorry if my point seems confused, but I'm not sure I can make it any clearer. The tactics that have been employed by anarchists have failed, but the theory of anarchism is far from refuted.

First of all, the tactics employed by these anarchists at these times were not synonymous with the theory.

Secondly, fundamental parts of creating a communist society where met by anarchists. Political, social and economic emancipation had started, specifically in Spain, and it worked. Without a state or the authority of leaders.


Really? How?

Read the last chapter of Eddie Conlons pamphlet and also this:
Preface to José Pierats book Anarchists in the Spanish Civil War: Part 1. (http://www.anarchosyndicalism.net/history/anarchists-1.htm)


If any anarchist has done any serious analysis of why anarchists are so prone to making this "mistake", or proposed any changes to keep it from happening in the future...I haven't seen it.

The 'Friends of Durruti' proposed how to deal with it which is inline with anarchist theory.


Certainly not in your posts.

Odd? I thought I made it clear throughout this debate that I believed FoD tactics should have been employed long before supporting the Popular Front government.


Typically, Spain '36 is held up as a positive example, not a cautionary one.

From José Pierats Preface:


Originally posted by [email protected]
In their writings, many anarchists conceived of a miraculous solution to the problem of revolution. We fell easily into this trap in Spain. We believed that "once the dog is dead, the rabies is over." We proclaimed a full-blown revolution without worrying about the many complex problems that a revolution brings with it. Nettlau said that those who believe that a society can change itself overnight through a heroic struggle have not learned the lessons of history. As Bakunin was wont to say, "a people develops extraordinary capacities when it is able to defeat its worst enemy: the State."


Pierats
The war of fronts led the CNT into the mire of political collaboration and to give up our past without any kind of recompense, since the more we surrendered as we collaborated, the more was demanded of us. While the policy of collaboration went ahead, we anarchists were able to gain some influence, but it was inevitable that we would fall sooner or later on the side of the State, and we were soon absorbed by the State bureaucracy.

workersunity
23rd March 2005, 19:08
anarchism is utopian, thinking that the state can be demolished in one big swing, is ridiculous

The Feral Underclass
23rd March 2005, 19:47
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 08:08 PM
anarchism is utopian, thinking that the state can be demolished in one big swing, is ridiculous
Read a book.

What is Communist Anarchism? by Alexander Berkman would be a good starting point. Google it, and be enlightened.

Severian
24th March 2005, 00:35
Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 23 2005, 09:26 AM
Read the last chapter of Eddie Conlons pamphlet and also this:
Preface to José Pierats book Anarchists in the Spanish Civil War: Part 1. (http://www.anarchosyndicalism.net/history/anarchists-1.htm)
Well, I read that link, despite its obfuscating academic style, and he does recognize the problem...but if he puts forward any solution other than guerilla warfare, it's not clear to me.

There's nothing magic about guerilla warfare nor does it, by itself, solve any deeper political problem. Really, Pierat seems to me on this point to be very much a product of a certain time when he was writing.

Additionally, as a military method, it could not have defeated Franco, as he was a domestic opponent....guerilla warfare has been often effective in convincing foreign occupiers and colonizers that some piece of territory is not worth the casualties, but not in overthrowing a government fighting for its existence. In order to do that, guerillas need to make the transition to either conventional warfare (China), urban insurrection (Nicaragua) or some combination of the two (Cuba.)

Pierat writes:
Some Spanish comrades still lament that our revolution happened to be accompanied by a civil war. But when had there been a revolution without a civil war? Is not a revolution a civil war by its very nature?
and
We still argue in our circles about whether we should have instituted full libertarian communism in Catalonia from the start, with all of its consequences. Assuming something which is very dubious, that "going all out" would have had the virtue of being able to extend anarchism to all of the loyal zone, I am still convinced, even without the Fascist presence, that we would not have been able to avoid a civil war. In such a situation, what would have happened? Most likely, the formation of a strong revolutionary government, which excluded the opposition - a supremely centralized power with a coercive apparatus to prevent and repress opposition. In such a situation the means would have completely obliviated our ends, as occurred in the Russian experience.

Which seems to me to be recognizing the basic problem for anarchism I've pointed out in this thread. Good for him. When it comes to a solution, though....I'm still waiting.


The 'Friends of Durruti' proposed how to deal with it which is inline with anarchist theory.

What makes you so sure it was? Earlier when I said " 'Course a "Revolutionary Workers' Junta" sounds a lot like the nucleus of a revolutionary workers' and farmers' government." you admitted "sound like, maybe."

I don't think you've answered, or maybe even understood, my question here. All you've said is that different tactics should be followed...you haven't proposed any change in theory and program which would cause different tactics to actually be used when the chips are down. I don't think theory and tactics are entirely separate; on the contrary if theory is of any use at all, it's a guide to figuring out what to do.

As usual with you, this thread has already become repetitive; you don't engage my arguments or carry forward a line of reasoning which develops from post to post, but just repeat the same things. You don't even remember or take into account what's been posted earlier in the thread, which inevitably leads to repeating what was said earlier.

The Feral Underclass
24th March 2005, 09:59
Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 01:35 AM
Which seems to me to be recognizing the basic problem for anarchism I've pointed out in this thread. Good for him. When it comes to a solution, though....I'm still waiting.
In a predominantly anarchist revolution it is necessary to arm the workers, which is what the Friends of Durruti advocated, and wage a war against the state, regardless of its political persuasion.

That is the alternative, and that is what I have maintained through out this thread!

In a situation where the revolution is predominantly authotarian I think the situation will be more difficult. A) there will be a split within the anarchist movement that will weaken it and b) the propagation of our idea's will be considerably more dangerous than under a capitalist state.


What makes you so sure it was?

Malatesta Said: "We hold that the State is incapable of good. In the field of international as well as of individual relations it can only combat aggression by making itself the aggressor; it can only hinder crime by organising and committing still greater crime."

Kropotkin said: "seeing the State as it has been in history, and as it is in essence today - and convinced that a social institution cannot lend itself to all the desired goals since as with every organ, it developed according to the function it performed, in a definite direction and not in all possible directions - one will understand, I say, why the conclusion we arrive at is for the abolition of the State."

Goldman said: "Anarchism directs its forces against the third and greatest foe of all social equality; namely, the State, organized authority, or statutory law,--the dominion of human conduct."

Bakunin said: It is in the nature of the State to break the solidarity of the human race and, as it were, to deny humanity. The State cannot preserve itself as such in its integrity and in all its strength except it sets itself up as supreme and absolute be-all and end-all, at least for its own citizens, or to speak more frankly, for its own subjectst...The State has always been the patrimony of some privileged class or other; a priestly class, an aristocratic class, a bourgeois class, and finally a bureaucratic class, when, all the other classes having become exhausted, the State falls or rises, as you will, to the condition of a machine; but it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of the State that there should be some privileged class or other which is interested in its existence.

Sorry for the long text, but I am trying to demonstrate that long before the Spanish civil war, and even the Russian Revolution, which Bakunin successfully predicted would become a state controlled by a bureaucratic class, anarchist tradition had fundamentally opposed the state in every instance.

The Friends of Durruti maintained the line that the state was inherently negative towards a revolution of this nature and that it should be fought with force.


Earlier when I said " 'Course a "Revolutionary Workers' Junta" sounds a lot like the nucleus of a revolutionary workers' and farmers' government." you admitted "sound like, maybe."

Yes, it may very well sound like a government, but so far you are yet to define what a government is?


you haven't proposed any change in theory and program which would cause different tactics to actually be used when the chips are down.

No change in theory is necessary. Following it, is what is important, and adopting tactics which reflect that.

Full opposition to the state, in every instance, either through the propagation of idea's or through force.

When you say "when the chips are down" I’m not sure what you're aiming at? Are you referring to the revolution in general or specifically to a problem that may arise where we may have to compromise our idea's?

If it's the latter, then there is absolutely no conceivable way that I can answer that question. Not unless you have a crystal ball.


As usual with you, this thread has already become repetitive; you don't engage my arguments or carry forward a line of reasoning which develops from post to post, but just repeat the same things.

That's because it is necessary for me to repeat things. You seem to be having difficulty grasping what I’m saying, and end up asking the same question, in a different way.

I've answered your quesiton to the best of my ability. If I am not understanding you, you must make yourself clearer

DEPAVER
24th March 2005, 13:43
There's certainly merit in understanding the lessons of history; however, the actions and examples of the past aren't always applicable in the present or in the future.

Societies and culture change, and what succeeded or failed hundreds or even dozens of years ago won't necessarily succeed or fail in today's world.

What is vitally important is to access the current situation, particularly as it relates to state power and what, if anything, can be done to counter state power.

Any thoughts of marching against the state or of gaining power through an elective process is a waste of time. At least in my opinion. In today's world of extreme technological advancement, the citizenry is severely handicapped and has no chance whatsoever, regardless of the numbers, if it attempts to face the state head on.

What can be effective is a process of withdrawing power from the state by doing two things.

1. Making it irrelevant by constructing communities in such a way that they are bioregionally self sufficient.

2. Forcing change via economic means by withdrawing support from the economic apparatus that the state supports.

This means communities meet their own needs with regard to food production, education, transportation and medical care. It means you financially support local producers, not large corporations, quit using banks, financing cars and feeding the machine.

Whether you agree with approach is not important. Why? Well, peak oil is going to change the entire landscape of our world, in fact, it's changing as we speak. Our entire economy and way of life is propped up by cheap oil. Every can of Coke. Your prescription drugs. Food production. Transportation. The military sector and therefore the economy.

You need to start thinking in terms of what this will mean when the price per barrel hits $70, because this is most assuredly going to happen. You need to start thinking about reconstructing our communities within a bioregional context simply so we can survive.

The only human societies that lived successfully for long periods on this whirling mudball lived in harmony with the earth, within a bioregional context. The Ohlone of Northern California lived near what we call Monterey bay for 5,000 years or so, living in place, living in a society that had found a balance among the needs of the individual, the needs of the community and the needs of the non-human world. At least until Western man moved in and mucked up the place.

Athabaskan folks have lived in Interior Alaska and Canada for 8,000 years or so leaving virtually no footprint until they adopted Western material culture. The Inuit have lived in northern North America for a mere 2,000 years, carving out a pretty unique physical and social culture for themselves.

If you want to learn from the past, these are the societies and the cultures we should be studying. Not only did they live in harmony with the earth, they are examples of the only truly anarchistic societies that ever existed in North America.

Does this mean we all have to go back to mud huts and wearing loin cloths? No, it doesn't. But it does suggest we should be attentive to how they lived and apply those principles within a modern day context.

Severian
25th March 2005, 10:58
Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 07:43 AM
The Ohlone of Northern California lived near what we call Monterey bay for 5,000 years or so, living in place, living in a society that had found a balance among the needs of the individual, the needs of the community and the needs of the non-human world. At least until Western man moved in and mucked up the place.
And if you try to follow the "Ohlone way", somebody who doesn't will come along and stomp you the same way. It's hardly unique to "western civilization"...it's also what the Bantu did to the Khoisan and Ituri, what the Maori did to the Chatham Islanders, what the Iroquois did to the Huron, etc etc. The most predictable thing in human history.

I recommend "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond. Note that it's not just technology, but scale and centralization of political organization that makes this possible.

****

TAT's posted nothing new which requires a new response, but I should partly correct an earlier post of mine:


All you've said is that different tactics should be followed...you haven't proposed any change in theory and program which would cause different tactics to actually be used when the chips are down. I don't think theory and tactics are entirely separate; on the contrary if theory is of any use at all, it's a guide to figuring out what to do.

By itself, this is a bit idealist...First, it needs to be clarified that an organization's program is not just words on paper, everything an organization does defines what its program really is.

Second, an organization's actions are not just the product of its theory and program...it's actions, like its theory, are the product of the class interests it defends.

So besides, theory, we gotta ask what class interests the anarchist groups present in these various revolutions were defending...

Specifically, the CNT-FAI leadership were basically union bureaucrats. Like other union bureaucrats, a privileged, petty-bourgeois layer rising over the ranks.

Makno was the leader of a Ukrainian peasant revolt with features in common with other Ukrainian peasant revolts in history....anti-Jewish pogroms, for example.

In general, anarchism is a petty-bourgeois ideology tracing back to the extreme wing of the bourgeois-democratic revolutionary movement....e.g. Godwin.

All of this, in addition to their copout theory and program, goes into explaining the betrayal committed by the CNT-FAI leadership, and other anarchist leaders in other revolutions....yes, supporting a bourgeois government is not just a tactical mistake, it is a betrayal of the working class, which the CNT-FAI claimed to represent.

TAT will probably disagrees with this explanation, but he's been unable or unwilling to put forward any alternative explanation as to why anarchists have so consistently behaved as I've described....

The Feral Underclass
25th March 2005, 14:28
You said...


Originally posted by Severian+--> (Severian)It's not worth much to build something if you can't defend it.[/b]

In reference to the success' of the collectives, to which I responded...


Originally posted by The Anarchist Tension+--> (The Anarchist Tension)It's a mistake the anarchist movement has learnt.[/b]

In reference to the tactics employed by the CNT-FAI.

You replied...


Originally posted by Severian
Really? How?

I then gave you a link to Preface of José Pierats book where he recognises the mistakes made. Eddie Conlon's pamphlet, which I also linked talks about the same mistakes, with the author's referring to the Friends of Durruti's tactics as the approach that should have been taken.

FoD were inline with anarchist theory. The destruction and non-negotiation with the state or reformist politics.

You then replied...


Originally posted by Severian
When it comes to a solution, though....I'm still waiting.

I then told you what the solution [to tactical mistakes made] was...


Originally posted by The Anarchist Tension
In a predominantly anarchist revolution it is necessary to arm the workers, which is what the Friends of Durruti advocated, and wage a war against the state, regardless of its political persuasion.

Further to that you also said...


Originally posted by Severian
you haven't proposed any change in theory and program which would cause different tactics to actually be used when the chips are down.

To which I responded, plainly and simply, repeating myself...


Originally posted by The Anarchist Tension
No change in theory is necessary. Following it, is what is important, and adopting tactics which reflect that. Full opposition to the state, in every instance, either through the propagation of idea's or through force.

You say...


[email protected]
As usual with you, this thread has already become repetitive; you don't engage my arguments or carry forward a line of reasoning which develops from post to post, but just repeat the same things.

I answered the question you posed to me. Yes I repeated myself, but that's because you kept repeating the same question!

Now, apparently the question has changed from, what is the alternative to the tactics to, why did they chose those tactics in the first place...


Severian
he's been unable or unwilling to put forward any alternative explanation as to why anarchists have so consistently behaved as I've described....

If that was the question you wanted answering, why didn't you ask it? Am I supposed to decipher the crythic meaning of your question?

The anarchists in Spain obviously believed that co-operating with the state would gain them concessions and protection.

If they had listened to the theory and trusted it a little more they should have known that this was bullshit, and indeed it was.