UK Nationalism

[trotsky7]

What are your opinions about Plaid Cymru, Scottish National Party, and Sinn Fein?

[Enragé]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 09:16 PM
What are your opinions about Plaid Cymru, Scottish National Party, and Sinn Fein?
there is a difference between nationalism which seeks to oppress other peoples/ethnic groups/religions (BNP does that for example) and the IRA's who just want their people to be free. The uprising in cuba against batista was a nationalist too in some respects

Tiocfaidh Ar La!!!

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 09:16 PM
What are your opinions about Plaid Cymru, Scottish National Party, and Sinn Fein?
I support and work for the national independence of Ireland, Scotland and Wales, but this will have to be achieved through the workers and anti-imperialists of the various nations in the British Isles working together, including England.

I urge everyone to support the IRSP/INLA, SRSM and Welsh Republican Socialists over the various groups styling themselves SF/IRA, PC, & the SNP as the mission of the IRSM is to empower the working class as well as liberating Ireland from colonialism.

[bur372]

What annoys me is when people like my scout group leader implies "we don't want any more immigration, Keep britain british etc" She is jewish( jewish scout group) I think her parents were immigrants and of course there was the kindertransport.

[bolshevik butcher]

I only want socialist independance from a capitalist Britain, if Britain was socialist I wouldn't see the gain in an independant scotland.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 22 2005, 07:45 PM
I only want socialist independance from a capitalist Britain, if Britain was socialist I wouldn't see the gain in an independant scotland.
If there was a revolutionary Britain, why would Scotland need to be ruled by England?

More to the point, I agree there'd be no borders, but English rule in Scotland would end.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by OglachMcGlinchey+Mar 22 2005, 07:56 PM--> (OglachMcGlinchey @ Mar 22 2005, 07:56 PM)
Clenched [email protected] 22 2005, 07:45 PM
I only want socialist independance from a capitalist Britain, if Britain was socialist I wouldn't see the gain in an independant scotland.
If there was a revolutionary Britain, why would Scotland need to be ruled by England?

More to the point, I agree there'd be no borders, but English rule in Scotland would end. [/b]
how? It would no longer be english rule in scotland, i suppose now looking at it, if there was a global reovlution, areas about he size of scotland wold be run by regional governments, like soviets, all of these soviets would then work together, in the name of equality and prosperity.

[Redmau5]

Originally posted by Clenched Fist+Mar 22 2005, 08:11 PM--> (Clenched Fist @ Mar 22 2005, 08:11 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 07:56 PM

Clenched [email protected] 22 2005, 07:45 PM
I only want socialist independance from a capitalist Britain, if Britain was socialist I wouldn't see the gain in an independant scotland.
If there was a revolutionary Britain, why would Scotland need to be ruled by England?

More to the point, I agree there'd be no borders, but English rule in Scotland would end.
how? It would no longer be english rule in scotland, i suppose now looking at it, if there was a global reovlution, areas about he size of scotland wold be run by regional governments, like soviets, all of these soviets would then work together, in the name of equality and prosperity. [/b]
One soviet for all of Scotland ? You may as well keep the existing government, as they represent all of Scotland anyway. The whole purpose of soviets and communes is to give people control over their cities, towns and villages. The idea of national soviet is, in essence, the same idea of a state.

Also, regarding Irish Nationalism. I am from Northern Ireland and believe in a united Ireland, however to make the issue part of any socialist agenda is bound to alienate some working class protestants who might otherwise be attracted to socialism. People's opposition to Unionism should be based on their opposition to British imperialism rather than pure Nationalism and Patriotism, because they are both issues associated with the Right.

As for the INLA/IRSP, who are you trying to fool ? The INLA were drug dealers who were firmly put in their place by the IRA, and the the IRSP is a pseudo-socialist party who has contibuted next to nothing to the socialist cause. Their greatest achievement for socialism was to put a picture of Lenin in their office window on the Falls road.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 12:16 AM
One soviet for all of Scotland ? You may as well keep the existing government, as they represent all of Scotland anyway. The whole purpose of soviets and communes is to give people control over their cities, towns and villages. The idea of national soviet is, in essence, the same idea of a state.



That's not what I said. What I wrote was:



More to the point, I agree there'd be no borders, but English rule in Scotland would end.


Also, regarding Irish Nationalism. I am from Northern Ireland and believe in a united Ireland, however to make the issue part of any socialist agenda is bound to alienate some working class protestants who might otherwise be attracted to socialism. People's opposition to Unionism should be based on their opposition to British imperialism rather than pure Nationalism and Patriotism, because they are both issues associated with the Right.


Fine, I'm not a nationalist ; I take the same position was Connolly, that NL is necessary for socialist revolution.


As for the INLA/IRSP, who are you trying to fool ? The INLA were drug dealers who were firmly put in their place by the IRA, and the the IRSP is a pseudo-socialist party who has contibuted next to nothing to the socialist cause. Their greatest achievement for socialism was to put a picture of Lenin in their office window on the Falls road.

I have no idea what you're spouting here, cop on. When did the IRA ever put us in our place? Three of the ten hunger strikers were INLA.

The IRSM are not drug dealers; none of our members are in jail for trafficing, nor is there any evidence of it. Funny, since you think the Brits would pounce on it if it was happening, don't ya think?

As for the contributions of the IRSP, they're the only socialist grouping trying to promote dialogue between the communities in the north, the only socialists who get any respect in the Catholic ghettoes. We actually get more venom from trendy lefties than we do from the Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist side.

[Redmau5]

Well the Hunger strikes happened in 1981, im talking about more recently. What have the INLA done in recent years ? They shot Billy Wright and thats about it. They were practically told to stand down by the IRA and we haven't heard from them since.

Fair play to the IRSP for their "socialism" but they hardly fire up the socialist cause. They are not much better than the sticks and that hardly inspires confidence.

[BOZG]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 06:18 AM
Fine, I'm not a nationalist ; I take the same position was Connolly, that NL is necessary for socialist revolution.


I would disagree. There can be no national liberation without socialist revolution.



As for the contributions of the IRSP, they're the only socialist grouping trying to promote dialogue between the communities in the north, the only socialists who get any respect in the Catholic ghettoes. We actually get more venom from trendy lefties than we do from the Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist side.

The only socialist grouping? Because of course the SP is actively promoting secterianism in the communities :rolleyes: And from what I've been told and I believe I mentioned this before, the IRSP do next to nothing in the North.



I am from Northern Ireland and believe in a united Ireland, however to make the issue part of any socialist agenda is bound to alienate some working class protestants who might otherwise be attracted to socialism.

I'm probably misunderstanding this part but are you saying that raising the idea of socialism would alienate working class protestants?

[T_34]

He means thats Irish Republican socialism would turn off british protestants in Ireland who wish to be part of a socialist britain, so using the Brits Out slogan would turn them against socialism.

Saying that, most loyalists (if not all) are right-wing, so the loss of support would be minimal.

[Redmau5]

Apologies if i confused anyone, but the political spectrum in Northern Ireland is different to the international spectrum. I jut assumed most socialists would have understood N.I. by now.

[BOZG]

That's what I thought you were getting at, but the sentence didn't really seem to make any sense. I would agree with you on that. The only basis for a united Ireland exists under a socialist federation.



Saying that, most loyalists (if not all) are right-wing, so the loss of support would be minimal.

But would you consider the majority of the Protestant community in the North to be right-wing?

[Redmau5]

Yes, about 90% would be, even if they didn't know what right-wing meant. They are rightist in the sense the want to "conserve" things ie keep the union with Britain. Loyalism, which is generally a protestant movement in N.I., can't be left-wing, it's a contradiction.

Nationalism in Northern Ireland would be more socialistic, as it entails change ie an end to British imperialism and the re-unification of Ireland. Although not all Nationalists are socialist, the republican movement has built itself around socialist principles.

I know it's confusing to refer to nationalists as socialists, but that's the way it works in Northern Ireland. Just know this;

1. The Unionist/Loyalist movement is generally protestant, right-wing movement. For example, the leading Unionist party, the DUP, is headed by a fundamentalist protestant. That gives you some idea of where they stand.

2. The Nationalist/Republican movement is generally catholic and would range from centre to extreme left in terms of the spectrum. The leading Nationalist party is Sinn Fein, which started as a socialist party but has drifted slowly into the centre.

So whenever you hear nationalist in the N.I. context it shouldn't be confused with nationalism everywhere else. All socialists should support the nationalist movement in N.I. as it opposes British imperialism in Ireland.

[BOZG]

No, what I meant is that T 34 is essentially labelling the majority of Protestants as consciously right-wing and that essentially they should be entirely dismissed. In reality, much of the working class in Europe and the US has some very right-wing views but we don't just write them off.

I'm in Dublin, so you don't have to explain these things to me. :)

[Redmau5]

Lol ok, just clearing thing up for anyone else confused about N.I.'s political system.

[T_34]

No offense mate, we live here,we no what it's like, both unionist parties are right-wing. The DUP and UUP (right-wing parties) make up the majority of the population, simple figures show that the majority of Protestants, from whom the Unionists draw their support, are rightist. If I met socialist Protestants I would consider them worthy comrades, but even they would tell you that the majority of that community are conservative, with a small but sizeable Fascist minority. And I did not say that they should be dismissed, I said if a socialist group were to turn Anti-British, it would alienate British Protestant socialists up here.

Sorry for all the confusion

[BOZG]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 09:14 PM
No offense mate, we live here,we no what it's like, both unionist parties are right-wing.
And I guarantee you that if you took a census into working class areas in anywhere in Europe, you'll find a huge number of "rightists". I suppose we should just ignore them too, dismiss the working class, eh. And as for the two main parties of nationalism, both SF and the SDLP are right-wing parties.

[T_34]

Who said anything about dismissing them lol? Who said they should be ignored? Clearly you haven't paid much attention to my last post or you wouldn't be wafflin on like a pure eejit. And that SF are right-wing muck, I've heard some bogus things before but that was a gem lol. Why would SF headquarters be called 'Connolly House' if they were right-wing? You think you know the score but you lost some serious credibility there.

By the way stop twistin my words you plank.

[BOZG]

"Saying that, most loyalists (if not all) are right-wing, so the loss of support would be minimal. <---- That is dismissing them.

Secondly, I couldn&#39;t give a shit what SF HQ is called, that does not define their policies. You do realise that the Irish bourgeoisie like to claim Connolly as their own too? Guess they&#39;re left-wing then.

Under the powersharing government, the policies of SF were capitalist policies of privatisation and neo-liberalism. Or do socialists now carry through cutbacks that affect the working class?

[Redmau5]

Originally posted by BOZG+Mar 23 2005, 09:43 PM--> (BOZG @ Mar 23 2005, 09:43 PM)
[email protected] 23 2005, 09:14 PM
No offense mate, we live here,we no what it&#39;s like, both unionist parties are right-wing.
And I guarantee you that if you took a census into working class areas in anywhere in Europe, you&#39;ll find a huge number of "rightists". I suppose we should just ignore them too, dismiss the working class, eh. And as for the two main parties of nationalism, both SF and the SDLP are right-wing parties. [/b]
He didn&#39;t say that we should dismiss the right-wing working class. He said any socialist party in Northern Ireland with an emphasis on Republican socialism is would alienate working class protestants who might other wise be attracted to socialism. This is due to their loyalties to Britain.

And i very much doubt "huge numbers" of the working class would be right-wing. Maybe some petty bourgeois who view themselves as working class would be right-wing, but i doubt very much the huge numbers you describe would want to maintain their oppressed position.

I know Sinn Fein and the SDLP may have lost some of their core socialist policies, but calling them right-wing is just a little bit too far. What planet are you on ?

[BOZG]

He didn&#39;t say that we should dismiss the right-wing working class. He said any socialist party in Northern Ireland with an emphasis on Republican socialism is would alienate working class protestants who might other wise be attracted to socialism. This is due to their loyalties to Britain.

I doubt he, himself believes that considering he has an avatar with a tricolour in it. Waving a nationalist flag is going to alienate people a lot more than arguing for a socialist united Ireland.



And i very much doubt "huge numbers" of the working class would be right-wing. Maybe some petty bourgeois who view themselves as working class would be right-wing, but i doubt very much the huge numbers you describe would want to maintain their oppressed position.

I don&#39;t, but on the credentials that nearly all Protestants are to be labelled right-wing then the same applies to the working class elsewhere.



I know Sinn Fein and the SDLP may have lost some of their core socialist policies, but calling them right-wing is just a little bit too far. What planet are you on ?

The arguments for SF are far more convincing because they&#39;ve kept up a pretence of socialism and many of their membership would be left leaning but the same cannot be said for the SDLP. As for core policies being lost, the policies of the SF leadership is that of being pro-big business, pro-capitalist.

[BOZG]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 09:48 PM
....you wouldn&#39;t be wafflin on like a pure eejit.
By the way stop twistin my words you plank.
Now don&#39;t cry child.

I&#39;m not going to take any person serious who believes that the name of a building is the deciding factor of what a party stands for and who&#39;s politics it represents. You fucking idiot.

[T_34]

No ones defendin the SDLP, they are useless. The fact the SF policies were capitalist does not mean they are right-wing. SF see the Power-Sharing Executive as a stepping-stone to Irish unity. Irish unity is their top priority, not a small, bomb riddled economy that exists up here, as long as the Brits are payin they don&#39;t care. Remember that Lenin&#39;s early economic measures were far from what the Bolsheviks believed in, War Communism was a temporary tool until they had won the civil war and brought stability to Russia, so whether or not SF endorsed capitalism when the P-S executive was up does not mean they are right-wing. Face it SF could not give a fuck about the economy, they have bigger things to worry about.

[Redmau5]

Nope not all protestants, only protestants in the north of Ireland. It is a fact the majority of protestants here are loyalist, and therefore right-wing. As they are right-wing, they aren&#39;t going to be attracted to socialism, which means it&#39;s no great loss. Please explain to me how that is dismissing the protestant working class ? It has nothing to do with their religion or class, it is to do with the fact they are right-wing.

As far as i knew the Left always dismissed the Right. <_<

[BOZG]

So basically you&#39;re defending SF&#39;s implementing of capitalist policies? So a socialist economy, defending and advancing the living conditions of the working class is not the main priority?

[BOZG]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 10:12 PM
Nope not all protestants, only protestants in the north of Ireland. It is a fact the majority of protestants here are loyalist, and therefore right-wing. As they are right-wing, they aren&#39;t going to be attracted to socialism, which means it&#39;s no great loss. Please explain to me how that is dismissing the protestant working class ? It has nothing to do with their religion or class, it is to do with the fact they are right-wing.

As far as i knew the Left always dismissed the Right. <_<
Dismissed those that are ardent right wingers who cannot be won over.

[Redmau5]

Ok, ok i see where you&#39;re coming from. How exactly are we going to get loyalists to abandon beliefs which have been held for the past 450 years and show them that a socialist Ireland is the way forward ?

[BOZG]

While the conditions of the North are quite different to other countries, they do share similarities at the same time. They same question can be posed in Iraq. How are we going to get Muslims to abandon beliefs that have been held for the past 1500 years and show them that a socialist Iraq is the way forward? There are sections of the working class that are very right-wing in different parts of the globe, it just means we have to work harder. I can&#39;t offer a blueprint of exactly how we do it, I don&#39;t own a crystal ball but I would always argue that we start at exactly where we start with anyone else, with class issues. I think it&#39;s safe to except that the old myth that protestant workers are living the lavish lifestyle is untrue and that the experience the same poverty and same exploitation as the working class does elsewhere. I don&#39;t see why it should be any differents than the tactics we use in communities which aren&#39;t as right wing. There are going to be sections of the loyalist community in the North which will remain visciously right-wing and racist but they&#39;re the people we dismiss, not the ordinary Protestant workers who are poisoned by the secterian bigots in their community.

[BOZG]

And believe me, I&#39;ve plenty of comrades in the North that come from Protestant backgrounds and have spent their lives arguing for socialism in Protestant communities.

[Redmau5]

I agree. It&#39;s just hard to convince protestants about British imperialism. Loyalism is so in-built in protestant communities it takes priority above class. We need to try and detach the stigma of a united Ireland being anti-protestant, wich many seem worried about.

[kingbee]

re: the original question- i do believe in uk nationalism.

i am from wales, but i do not feel british. for britain, read england. the uk is merely the dominance by england.

i support plaid cymru, as their new manifesto is a "welsh socialist alternative to new labour".

ireland, scotland and wales have different cultures, and for wales, a widely spoken different language. people don;t seem to realise this.

maybe cardiff has a &#39;devolved&#39; government, but it is bollox. they have limited powers, and i&#39;d rather be ruled properly from london, rather than pretend to be ruled from cardiff.

[T_34]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 10:13 PM
So basically you&#39;re defending SF&#39;s implementing of capitalist policies? So a socialist economy, defending and advancing the living conditions of the working class is not the main priority?
Got it in one big lad&#33; That wasn&#39;t too difficult.

[BOZG]

Wow, you&#39;re an idiot.

[T_34]

wow, you&#39;re gay.

It&#39;s all well and good for Dubliners to cry about what Northerners to with the economy, why can&#39;t you realise some people have more pressing matters to deal with?

[BOZG]

I&#39;ll firstly point out that homophobesor homophobic language is not welcome on this site, so cut it out or fuck off.

Secondly, why can&#39;t you realise that there will never be a solution to the Northern question unless you take a class position, not a communal, secterian position.

Finally, as you say, I&#39;m in Dublin, but how do you explain the work that is done by socialists in the North, who refuse to bow to secterianism and continue arguing a socialist position. Are they tainted by a Dublin mentality or something.

[T_34]

Class position? Yeah right, look at the workers party, they went to take a class position, and now they are lucky gathering 600 votes in West Belfast. Fair play to socialist parties for trying, but this is a polarised society, class plays second fiddle, thats just how it is. I wish there was another way, but there isn&#39;t. Look at the water tax, people don&#39;t like it, but won&#39;t hand their suport to the socialist movement or even sign a petition, so how can they possibly end a conflict with so much apathy? People are concerned with one thing and one thing only, and everytime you watch let&#39;s talk or Hearts and Minds, you see it in action.

[BOZG]

Well then tell me exactly where have the secterian parties got anyone? I haven&#39;t seen any attitudes change from listening and following secterian bigots. A united Ireland under capitalism will result in the reversal of terms for the Protestant community, to them being on the harsher end of secterianism from the Irish state. If you were a protestant faced with that prospect, would you really want a united Ireland?

From anything I&#39;ve been read or told, there&#39;s plenty of people signing petitions and making pledges that are being put forward by the socialist movement.

[T_34]

At the minute sectarian parties have political theory on the bottom of their agenda, that main thing as you know is the peace process, if we can&#39;t implement a proper peace how could we install socialism? Thats not the way to do things. The main parties may not have done much, but at least belfast city centre is bomb free these days. And by the way, SF are not a sectarian party, the only party I would describe as sectarian are the DUP. SF are not anti-Protestant. And most protestants would prefer a capitalist Ireland than a socialist one.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by Makaveli_05+Mar 23 2005, 12:16 AM--> (Makaveli_05 @ Mar 23 2005, 12:16 AM)
Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 22 2005, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 07:56 PM

Clenched [email protected] 22 2005, 07:45 PM
I only want socialist independance from a capitalist Britain, if Britain was socialist I wouldn&#39;t see the gain in an independant scotland.
If there was a revolutionary Britain, why would Scotland need to be ruled by England?

More to the point, I agree there&#39;d be no borders, but English rule in Scotland would end.
how? It would no longer be english rule in scotland, i suppose now looking at it, if there was a global reovlution, areas about he size of scotland wold be run by regional governments, like soviets, all of these soviets would then work together, in the name of equality and prosperity.
One soviet for all of Scotland ? You may as well keep the existing government, as they represent all of Scotland anyway. The whole purpose of soviets and communes is to give people control over their cities, towns and villages. The idea of national soviet is, in essence, the same idea of a state.

Also, regarding Irish Nationalism. I am from Northern Ireland and believe in a united Ireland, however to make the issue part of any socialist agenda is bound to alienate some working class protestants who might otherwise be attracted to socialism. People&#39;s opposition to Unionism should be based on their opposition to British imperialism rather than pure Nationalism and Patriotism, because they are both issues associated with the Right.

As for the INLA/IRSP, who are you trying to fool ? The INLA were drug dealers who were firmly put in their place by the IRA, and the the IRSP is a pseudo-socialist party who has contibuted next to nothing to the socialist cause. Their greatest achievement for socialism was to put a picture of Lenin in their office window on the Falls road. [/b]
No, sorry that wasn&#39;t what i emant, what i meant was that all the soviets in scotland wold form like the dogma, the main parliment, inbetween the local soviets and the &#39;world soviet&#39; that i imagine.

[Redmau5]

Ok i see what you mean. I thought you were trying to say an area the size of Scotland was too small to be operated by multiple soviets, that&#39;s why i was :huh:

[bolshevik butcher]

I see, yeah i could of explained it better.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 10:04 PM
I&#39;m not going to take any person serious who believes that the name of a building is the deciding factor of what a party stands for and who&#39;s politics it represents. You fucking idiot.

You have such a way with debate so. <_<

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by BOZG+Mar 23 2005, 07:33 PM--> (BOZG @ Mar 23 2005, 07:33 PM)
[email protected] 23 2005, 06:18 AM
Fine, I&#39;m not a nationalist ; I take the same position was Connolly, that NL is necessary for socialist revolution.


I would disagree. There can be no national liberation without socialist revolution. [/b]
:lol: What are you disagreeing with then. The position of the IRSM, (unlike every other organisation in Ireland) is that one without the other is impossible.


As for the contributions of the IRSP, they&#39;re the only socialist grouping trying to promote dialogue between the communities in the north, the only socialists who get any respect in the Catholic ghettoes. We actually get more venom from trendy lefties than we do from the Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist side.


The only socialist grouping? Because of course the SP is actively promoting secterianism in the communities :rolleyes: And from what I&#39;ve been told and I believe I mentioned this before, the IRSP do next to nothing in the North.

Yeah, see you SP types don&#39;t like to leave the Universities and at your meetings for the revolution you enjoy mocking working class accents. You&#39;re nothing more than a reformist electoral body.

And your source who told you the IRSP &#39;do next to nothing in the North&#39; -- Tarasi -- is now applying for IRSP membership. We&#39;re growing all the time, organising in the communities where doddy is scared to lead you go to.

And even if, for the sake of argument, the IRSP were doing nothing, it&#39;d be better than your faction -- endorsing millionaire populists for US president&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; :lol:

[BOZG]

What are you disagreeing with then. The position of the IRSM, (unlike every other organisation in Ireland) is that one without the other is impossible.

Maybe it&#39;s a misunderstanding but arguing that the route to socialist revolution is national liberation stinks of Stalinist stagism. We&#39;ve never argued that one can happen without the other.



Yeah, see you SP types don&#39;t like to leave the Universities and at your meetings for the revolution you enjoy mocking working class accents.

What are you talking about?



And your source who told you the IRSP &#39;do next to nothing in the North&#39; -- Tarasi -- is now applying for IRSP membership. We&#39;re growing all the time, organising in the communities where doddy is scared to lead you go to.

His joining doesn&#39;t change the fact that he said they do next to nothing. I&#39;d be more worried that someone who claimed your organisation does nothing wants to join your ranks. I don&#39;t know about the IRSP in the North so I&#39;ve relied on other people to tell me but I do know that they really do nothing in Dublin.

I won&#39;t even bother justifying your last statement considering you won&#39;t even bother looking past the superficialness of your argument.

[Cokane]

The IRSP are pretty fuckin pathetic, that spring cleaning of their Falls Road headquarters isn&#39;t what I&#39;d call activity. Sure they finally washed the windows and put a few flags up (not to mention painting a red star - yayy), but so what? You may be recruiting new members, but how are you using them? Not very effectively from what I can see on the ground. I find it very unfortunate that a socialist group that gets respect in the Fenian Ghettos is in hibernation most of the year, just to get a new lease of life come Spring, and then slowly die away again for another year (without washing the windows).

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 04:19 PM
Maybe it&#39;s a misunderstanding but arguing that the route to socialist revolution is national liberation stinks of Stalinist stagism. We&#39;ve never argued that one can happen without the other.
Ok, what I said was:


The position of the IRSM, (unlike every other organisation in Ireland) is that one without the other is impossible.

National Liberation is just a part of the same struggle for socialism.

The fact that you label this position &#39;stalinist stagism&#39; shows your lack of political understanding or your desire to learn or engage in dialogue.


The IRSP are pretty fuckin pathetic, that spring cleaning of their Falls Road headquarters isn&#39;t what I&#39;d call activity. Sure they finally washed the windows and put a few flags up (not to mention painting a red star - yayy), but so what? You may be recruiting new members, but how are you using them? Not very effectively from what I can see on the ground. I find it very unfortunate that a socialist group that gets respect in the Fenian Ghettos is in hibernation most of the year, just to get a new lease of life come Spring, and then slowly die away again for another year (without washing the windows).

I won&#39;t even respond to this sectarian trash. You&#39;re a left sectarian and another type, what with your &#39;fenian ghettos&#39; remark.

[Redmau5]

Shows how much you know, seeing Cokane is a "fenian" from one of those "ghetto&#39;s". You&#39;d have to be seriously weak to be offended by the word fenian.

Fenian = Irish rebel. Now that&#39;s a really insulting term. <_<

In regards to the IRSP. The fact they have socialist in their name doesn&#39;t mean they automatically get support. When they actually do something worthwhile i might change my opinion.

[BOZG]

Well for my troubles Oglach, I&#39;ve just spent a day of my first trip to Belfast leafletting UVF controlled areas. Couldn&#39;t open my mouth.

[Cokane]

BOZG you wouldnt have happened to be hanging around outside the GPO would you?

[BOZG]

Not this weekend, I was up leafletting in Belfast. I&#39;m at the GPO every other weekend.

[Cokane]

No I mean the GPO in Belfast city centre

[BOZG]

Oh sorry, I thought you meant in Dublin. I was there at Castle Place for a while, on a We Won&#39;t Pay campaign stall. Black jacket, blue jeans, long hair.

[Cokane]

Yeah I passed it, not in an ignorant way, but i have signed that petition before lol.

[Dark Exodus]

Nationalist parties just seek to gain power by using people natural pride of a place that they didn&#39;t choose to be born in in the first place.

[Redmau5]

The IRSP are nationalist in the sense they want a united Ireland. I am nationalist in the sense that i want a united Ireland. Does that mean all they want is to gain power for themselves ?

[Cokane]

What the fuck does that matter? Because we didn&#39;t choose to be born a certain way we shouldn&#39;t have pride? You didn&#39;t choose to be a total head melter but you are, you should have pride in that. There is nothing wrong with having pride about where we come from, as you say it is natural&#33;

And Nationalist parties can seek to gain power whatever way they see possible, makes a change from not having power at all, when the main republicans turned socialist in the 60&#39;s, did we get anything out of it? NO. So why not aim for seperation with Britain before implementing socialism?

[Dark Exodus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 05:31 PM
What the fuck does that matter? Because we didn&#39;t choose to be born a certain way we shouldn&#39;t have pride? You didn&#39;t choose to be a total head melter but you are, you should have pride in that. There is nothing wrong with having pride about where we come from, as you say it is natural&#33;

And Nationalist parties can seek to gain power whatever way they see possible, makes a change from not having power at all, when the main republicans turned socialist in the 60&#39;s, did we get anything out of it? NO. So why not aim for seperation with Britain before implementing socialism?
How can you be proud of something you have no control over?

Their will always be exceptions and I can see how the divide in Ireland would cause people to become patriotic on either side, this seems to be what you are talking about. I am not.
I am talking about parties like the SNP&#39;s that are playing on peoples national pride.

[Cokane]

Well why should Scottish people be dominated by Englishmen? Or Basques by Spaniards? Or Ukrainians by Russians? It&#39;s natural to want a greater independence for your people.

[Dark Exodus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 05:55 PM
Well why should scottish people be dominated by Englishmen? Or Basques by Spaniards? Or Ukrainians by Russians?
They are already dominated by their own government, giving the oppressor a different face doesent stop the oppression.

But the thing is these countries are no longer being oppressed so the need for a nationalist party (it is worrying that one is needed in the first place) is no longer, the government must adapt.

[Cokane]

I agree, why not have Nationalist parties or policies until independence is achieved, then implement socialism rather than another government doing for you, without people feeling bitter towards a foreign government and in turn, towards socialism.