Did Che kill gay people?

[B_MArLeY_LIVES!]

First off im a huge che fan and a strong beliver of marxism so this isn't coming from an anti-Che perspective but i remember reading on the internet how Che executed (not personally) gays and aids victims.I am aware this is most likely cuban exiles making up stories but have any of you guys heard similar stories?

by the way im new to this site so hello everyone :)

[cormacobear]

I've never heard that anywhere. So i'm sure it's made up. The only executions I ever heard about were political or anti-revolutionary opponents.

[pandora]

Originally posted by B_MArLeY_LIVES!@Feb 27 2005, 09:49 AM
First off im a huge che fan and a strong beliver of marxism so this isn't coming from an anti-Che perspective but i remember reading on the internet how Che executed (not personally) gays and aids victims.I am aware this is most likely cuban exiles making up stories but have any of you guys heard similar stories?

Sweetheart, no one had AIDS when Che was alive, how old are you? No that biological warfare was not released on the public starting in Africa and NYC until the Reagan years.

As far as killing gays, I am unaware of his doing this. Che had very affectionate relationships with other males, as a doctor I don't see him doing this, he may not have been able to stop other machismo males from doing this, but he himself was more gentle than machismo. This made many things difficulut for him.

I think it telling that Che allowed an old woman on a donkey to pass in Belize, he was worried she would give his location but still did not wish to harm her, she actually never betrayed him.

Raul Castro on the other hand is a son of a ***** and conducted many questionable executions after the revolution that were unnecessary of military personnel and one him many enemies, even among Revolutionaries. He then went to congress (US) and told them that Che was the commie influencing his poor brother. He was a son of a gun, I don't know what he is like now. He is slightly effefinate, maybe this insecurity caused him to become homophobic and encourage the repression of homosexuals that most occured after Che was no longer really working in Cuba, and after his death.

It has been proven that some of the men who committed the Bay of Pig invasion were sodomized by the Cuban troops under Che, but I would suspect this was more a revenge act by individual soldiers, in general they returned unharmed, but some were raped. I don't see that as a homosexual act though, I see that as a violent form of domination over a milatary target which goes against the Geneva Convention. I don't believe Che would condone this as a military tactician he would know that you do not introduce such forms of derision and torture lest your own men be tortured the same way upon capture. Something the US would do good to remember, they have been highly irresponsible in this respect, even towards their own men on the ground in terms of safety for not weeding such practices out and making an example of those who would carry them out.

[Tim]

I quote Jorge Castaneda's Companero

"It was he [Che] who set up Cuba's first "labour camp" in those months, in Guanahacabibes. He spent a few days there, establishing one on the most heinous precedents of the Cuban revolution: the confinement of dissidents, homosexuals and later, AIDS victims."

This is only one source, although I fount it impartial and scholarly. Fidel Castro is famous for his homophobia. And I've read - although I have no reference at hand (perhaps others can help) - that there are reports of drug addicts in Cuban prisons deliberately injecting themselves with the HIV virus to avoid labour camps.

I like you, am finding it difficult to concile the heroic and altruistic actions of Che Guevara with the reports of brutal executions and homophobia.

[fernando]

AIDS didnt exist when Che was alive, so you could already claim that whole story to be a lie in a way. Another point Latin America was still filled with an old fashioned morale, just like the US for that matter (lets not forget the relationship between whites and coloured people in that country).

But then again...if the AIDS patients were put there "later" it means it could not have been under Che's command since he was already dead then.

But if Che created those labour camps for AIDS patients...then why the fuck would dug addicts inject themseles with the HIV virus to avoid going to those camps? Again the sources contradict each other.

But remember that in those times homosexuality wasnt an accepted thing, it was still seen as something bad, especially in catholic Latin America.

[chebol]

This question has been addressed time and again, and needs to be definitively done away with. It is one of the most hurtful, and destructive, pieces of propaganda launched against the cuban revolution, designed to isolate it from the more progressive parts of western society.

Quite simply, the answer is "No!". Che did NOT kill gays, or AIDS sufferers.

The camps and actions towards homosexuals referred to above are a confused mixture of a few things.

First, in the mid sixties, the Cuban military set up the UMAPs (Units to Aid Military Production). These were designed to contain homosexuals, drug users, dissenters and other "undesirables" who it was deemed ought not serve in the army. This period was one of heightened danger in Cuba, following the Bay of Pigs, and the Missile Crisis. Nevertheless, these camps were clearly a violation of the civil rights of the Cubans it affected. Fidel agreed- as soon as he learned of the details of these camps, he fought to have them closed, which they were, after a period of functioning of a total (about) 2 years.

The AIDS problem arrived in Cuba as a result of the involvement in Angola during the eighties, when Cuban troops helped defeat Apartheidt South Africa and liberate Angola and Namibia.
Returning soldiers brought the disease, and passed it on to their families, and to prostitutes and other members of the community.
In order to prevent a wide-scale epidemic, those cubans affected by the virus were transfered to sanitariums, where they were treated and research conducted towards finding a cure. Inevitably some of these people were gays, but the vast majority were heterosexual. The sanitariums themselves were non-restrictive- residents were allowed to travel outside, work and recreate, and were educated on AIDS/HIV and treated- for free. At first they were accompanied out by staff of the sanitarium, to assure they were not passing on the virus to the community, but eventually they were allowed to go out alone, and some left completely. The quality of the accommodation was on a par with a 3 or 4 star hotel.
As it became clear that AIDS could not be easily cured, and that the education system had made the general population aware of the risks, it was decided that the sanitariums were no longer necessarily the best way of dealing with the problem, and the people were sent home.
Aids is still a problem in Cuba, but due to the early action to prevent it's spread- a cmbination of physical limitations and maximum education, it is far less than in the rest of Latin America.

Pandora, I assume you mean Bolivia, not "Belize".
More importantly, I would like to know what you base your slanderous comments about Raul upon. What you have written about him is all but 100% lies and slander. You got his name right, but thta's about it, and I suggest doing some real research instead of repeating the filth churned out by the worms in Miami.
Similarly with your claims about prisoner abuse after the Bay of Pigs. These are the lies of the same monsters who were responsible for the torture and murder of thousands of Cubans before the revolution, and for the 46 years of terrorism and over 3,500 deaths from their acts to destroy the revolution and all it stands for. If it has been "proved" that these things took place, please show us where this "proof" is, so that we may view it critically ourselves.

Similarly to Tim, unfortunately Castaneda is far from a reliable source. He has a tendency to make things up that make himself look bigger than life, and his book is full of lies and innaccuracies.

Fidel's homophobia is certainly famous, if you don't know anything about Fidel. In fact, Fidel has been leading the fight against homophobia in Cuba for years. While it is true that homophobia exists in Cuba, it is far less than in the rest of Latin America, which suffers from an excess of "machismo" culture. Cuba has express laws against not only homophobia, but racism and sexism, including the Codigo de Familia, which makes it law for men to do half the housework.
Unfortunately, the collapse of the Soviet Bloc brought about an immense recession in Cuba, and throughout the "Special Period" an alarming increase in racism, sexism and homophobia took place, along with a widening of the gap in income disparity. These have all been consciously and vigourously combatted, not least by Fidel and Raul (who, like his brother, is not the son of a gun, but the son of an immigrant Galician). These biases and social problems, like AIDS, still exist in Cuba, but are consciously being fought by the government, neighbourhood groups, community organisations and the Communist Party.

I am not at all surprised that you find it hard to reconcile the image of Che as a compassionate socialist with the reports of torture, murder and labour camps. You should not be surprised, then, to discover that the reports are not true, but are the propaganda of the Miami mobsters and counter-revolutionaries.

[cccpcommie]

i'd honestly wouldnt kill aids victims but i would section them off in a area of a country where tests could be made to end the epidemic
:unsure:

[Tim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 11:06 PM
i'd honestly wouldnt kill aids victims but i would section them off in a area of a country where tests could be made to end the epidemic

Gee maybe you could send gays too. Perhaps the intellectually impaired as well. And why not those with a history of parkinsons or cancer? Don't want them passing down those nasty recessive genes.

I assume you'd spare yourself, though.

[B_MArLeY_LIVES!]

Thanks for clearing that up chebol i to agree that is one of the most hurtful things you can say about che i understand how gays were persecuted against (and still are) in the 60s but im sure che would have been against the idea.

[Spartacus2002]

He is slightly effefinate, maybe this insecurity caused him to become homophobic and encourage the repression of homosexuals that most occured after Che was no longer really working in Cuba, and after his death.

that entire speel was an example of bullshit historical revisionism get your head out of your own ass and stop trying to lie about the past to try crush everything inside your worldview... dammit if one thing bugs me its people that tell falsehoods in order to make things run smoothly with their agendas... Che was against homosexauls he believed it was wrong, look in the john lee anderson biography you can find that out, he even on one occassion ridiculed a gay batista official on their rebel radio in the seirra meastre, as far as saying che was effemenite that is complete bullshit if there was ever a real man that it was che. If you read allen ginsberg's biography he was kicked out of cuba because he said che was cute and he wanted to sleep with him. Also as far as Che not knowing about homosexauls being sent to work camps, in the mid sixties, in cuba at that time there was very little that che didnt know was happening in cuba he knew he probably just didnt care beacuse it was no secret. And to say that Che is a hateful person because he disagreed with homosexaulity is also completely wrong, Che loved people regardless of creed, nationality or colour just because someone disagrees with a lifestyle does not make them hateful i disagree with alcoholism and it does not mean i hate alcoholics.

[Anarcho-Communist]

............ Stop this argueing guys!
Peace, Love, Empathy

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 04:24 AM
I quote Jorge Castaneda's Companero

This is only one source, although I fount it impartial and scholarly.
Castaneda is a rabid anticommunist, and other writers have pointed out many factual errors in his book. See Conflicting Missions by Piero Gliejeses for a discription of how many of Castaneda's "facts" are invented.

Here's an article which sets the record straight as to Cuba's policies towards gays. (http://www.nscuba.org/Docs/Derechos/BNF.html)

A longer and more detailed version of that article (http://www.blythe.org/arenas.html)

As for the role of Che personally, let me point out that by 1965, the year the UMAP camps were set up, he was on his way to the Congo.

See also the National Review of September 29, 1997, for an article titled "How Cuba Cured AIDS". Even this super-conservative magazine has to admit that Cuba has been effective in preventing the spread of AIDS and helping those infected; and that the myths about "concentration camps" for AIDS patients are just that, myths.

[TheMachine]

As others have said, AIDS was not around/a world wide problem back then.

It didnt really make much of a presence until the late 70's and didnt hit hard until the 80's.

And On the killing gays:

I cannot see him killing gays. I really cant see him killing anyone, but thats just my mental thing..

[Big Boss]

I only have to say one thing and that is that I agree with chebol 100%. The mobsters in Miami have been cooking up lies for the last 40 years and this is lie in particular is one of the most vile and painful one that I have ever heard. I lies like that are not working then they will just think about a new one. They even use Che to attack Castro by saying by that Che was betrayed by him. For most people it's easier to believe such a lie than sit down and do a little research on the fact first. Great post chebol!

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

The problem I feel most face when uncovering information about Che, is that many do not want to admit his faults. The fact that he, Fidel and Raul all committed political genocide on any supporter of Bautista; or the fact that homosexuals were ridiculed and wanted to be done away with.

I personally have not come across any documentation that says Che killed homosexuals, however as chebol stated, Fidel had a very strong homophobic mentality with regard to the issue. Fidel's not the type of person to just let things slide; he's a leader, and he'd do anything that's necessary for him to stay leaeder. Che may have not killed gays, but I strongly believe Fidel has.

[OleMarxco]

Probably, yes. But why should I care? It's not like as if Che "knew" he was killing gays "delibaretely", nor does it matter if he knew. He didn't kill them because of that, but because they were enforcing and protecting the imperialistic capitalistism-politics of the U.S., as puppies. That's why. Perhaps a good number of the ones he killed WERE gay, for that matter. It's totally irrelevant, however, as it were not waged as a war "against the fags", more like "against the burgeouise". Perhaps there were some burgeouise fags, I do not know. It's the republicans who are responsible of that fag-war, if you have to blame someone of it - go ask them :D

[Vallegrande]

How can you not have gays in war? Just a simple question. When youre out there, with no women, just men, things start to change for some people.

Speaking of AIDS, there is some very strong evidence that coconut oil destroys the lipid coated virus, because of the Lauric Acid, but you have to be ingesting coconut oil everyday for a long period of time. Lauric acid is what we find in mothers' breast milk. For some reason, the Lauric Acid turns into mono-laurin and can really damage the structure of the AIDS virus, making it easier for the cells to see and kill. I dont know how the hell this works because im not a Bio-Chemist, but coconut seems to have an important role nowadays in fighting lipid coated viruses, but the doctors dont know a thing about it, because they are looking at all these processed drugs for a solution. I am confident that coconut oil can do this(The unrefined, extra virgin coconut oil). And its not bad for us like the health industry has been saying for decades on end. It's actually the best for us!

Thats just my spew on how AIDS can be kept in check.

Sorry bout that I kinda blew the whole thread.

[Redmau5]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 05:04 PM
How can you not have gays in war? Just a simple question. When youre out there, with no women, just men, things start to change for some people.



I don't think you can just become "gay"

[Anti-establishment]

Look into prison sexuality - it can happen.

[chebol]

Knowledge 6 6 6,
you didn't read what I said.
I said that Fidel was leading the way in COMBATTING homophobia (QUOTE: "Fidel's homophobia is certainly famous, if you don't know anything about Fidel.").
You have mischaracterised me as saying that Fidel was strongly homophobic.

Further, they did not commit "political genocide" on Batista's supporters. They were tried according to the laws of Cuba, and found guilty of crimes they had committed. Full stop. In fact, the trial process saved most of them from summary execution by an enraged population.

[Bugalu Shrimp]

I have a qoute from Fidel where he says something along the lines of..
"Homosexuals can never be true revolutionaries" but to be honest it's old and I think he's past that now, Cuba was a strongly "machismo" society - it's changing.

[fernando]

Back in those day homosexuality was a big taboo everywhere in the world! I mean it is still a big taboo in the US today!!!

[TC]

Originally posted by Bugalu [email protected] 6 2005, 06:09 PM
I have a qoute from Fidel where he says something along the lines of..
"Homosexuals can never be true revolutionaries" but to be honest it's old and I think he's past that now, Cuba was a strongly "machismo" society - it's changing.
Where did he say that?

He told Tomas Borge in an interview in 1992:

" I don't consider homosexuality to be a phenomenon of degeneration. I've always had a more rational approach, considering it to be one of the natural aspects and tendencies of human beings which should be respected. That's how I view it... I am absolutely opposed to any form of repression, contempt, scorn or discrimination with regard to homosexuals. That's what I think."

http://www.ratb.org.uk/html/cspeaks/face_to_face.html

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...960950?v=glance (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1875284729/102-9849600-5960950?v=glance)


So i think Fidel Castro is quit unambigiously in favor of gay rights.


I"m not really well versed on the AIDs quarantines...but i think you have to remember that it wasn't initially obvious that AIDs was spread by HIV through fluids, and when dealing with a deadly infectious pathogen of unknown origin and transmission, quarantines are not an unnatural response. Also the scale of AIDs in Cuba is much smaller then most countries.

I don't know, is AIDs even associated with homosexuality in Cuba? I guess if it was spread from north america it probably would be, since north american infection rates are much higher in homosexual males, but if it came from Africa or elsewhere then you would think that it wouldn't have any association with homosexuality. Theres no natural association with AIDs and homosexuality, its only the case in north america because the first carriers happened to be homosexual so it effected that population to a much great extent.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 05:58 PM
Knowledge 6 6 6,
you didn't read what I said.
I said that Fidel was leading the way in COMBATTING homophobia (QUOTE: "Fidel's homophobia is certainly famous, if you don't know anything about Fidel.").
You have mischaracterised me as saying that Fidel was strongly homophobic.

Further, they did not commit "political genocide" on Batista's supporters. They were tried according to the laws of Cuba, and found guilty of crimes they had committed. Full stop. In fact, the trial process saved most of them from summary execution by an enraged population.
You cannot possibly tell me that Batista supporters were okay after the revolution. Why do you think most...if not, all of them fled to Miami?

It WAS political genocide - have you even lived in Cuba? If you did, you'd know that you cannot even speak AGAINST the Castro gov't for fear of imprisonment, and subsequent torture. It's tyrranical rule, something I feel many here do not take into account when talking about the Cuban Revolution.

Castro isn't a fan of anything against him - who would? But what I like about our capitalist system is that anyone can have a voice against their own government. It's sad to say that you cant have the same under Castro.

[TC]

They fled to miami so they could keep all of the money they looted from Cuba during their mafia state, not because of political persecution (though of course capitalists often interpret not having the freedom to move their money around and invest it as 'political persecution')

Show some evidence of a "genocide"...something in the news, events and dates. Show that there isn't free speech in Cuba. Otherwise just repeating the gusanos lies just leads to "he's evil" "no he's not" type discussions.

[Big Boss]

I'm with you TragicClown!

[Bugalu Shrimp]

Originally posted by TragicClown+May 7 2005, 02:16 AM--> (TragicClown @ May 7 2005, 02:16 AM)
Bugalu [email protected] 6 2005, 06:09 PM
I have a qoute from Fidel where he says something along the lines of..
"Homosexuals can never be true revolutionaries" but to be honest it's old and I think he's past that now, Cuba was a strongly "machismo" society - it's changing.


Where did he say that?

[/b]
"Homosexulity is really a deviation of nature. We could never come to beleive that a homosexual could embody the conditions & requirements of conduct that would enable us to consider him a true revolutionary." - Fidel Castro 1966 interview with Lee Lockwood.

As I said, I think he's past that kind of thinking now.

[Hiero]

There is a documentary in which Fidel explains the persicution of gay [people. He admits that it was wrong and mentions at the time there was a big macho sentiment among the men of the rebolution

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I think it telling that Che allowed an old woman on a donkey to pass in Belize, he was worried she would give his location but still did not wish to harm her, she actually never betrayed him.

Belize? Why was he in Belize?

[Colombia]

Ernesto was never in Belize. What he mentioned though does happen in Bolivia.

[viva le revolution]

Originally posted by Knowledge 6 6 [email protected] 7 2005, 03:02 AM

You cannot possibly tell me that Batista supporters were okay after the revolution. Why do you think most...if not, all of them fled to Miami?

It WAS political genocide - have you even lived in Cuba?


First of all Batistas supporters were the rich bourgeois. Second they fled to Miami to join and give support to a counter-revolutionary movement there.
I don't care if it was political genocide, i would have shot those sons of *****es myself!

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Originally posted by viva le revolution+May 10 2005, 05:09 PM--> (viva le revolution @ May 10 2005, 05:09 PM)
Knowledge 6 6 [email protected] 7 2005, 03:02 AM

You cannot possibly tell me that Batista supporters were okay after the revolution. Why do you think most...if not, all of them fled to Miami?

It WAS political genocide - have you even lived in Cuba?


First of all Batistas supporters were the rich bourgeois. Second they fled to Miami to join and give support to a counter-revolutionary movement there.
I don't care if it was political genocide, i would have shot those sons of *****es myself! [/b]
And this is exactly why the revolution to me, has lost a lot of respect.

You have to respect both political sides...the way to get a common consensus is by scoping the entire political field - the minute you get a spin is the minute the common consensus becomes distorted...abstract...almost nonexistent. People acting on behalf of the strong, dominating right or left-wing agenda. No one cares for politics anymore; they throw blind faith into their leader regardless.

[Hiero]

And this is exactly why the revolution to me, has lost a lot of respect.

What is the point of revolution then.

The idea is to completly remove thoose in power, thats what Fidel and continues to do.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

you didn't address the second part of my post; that he replaced those in power with a strong leftist agenda.

I'm all for a revolution if it means equality on every level. If you can't have that politically, (and myself being a political science student) then I don't wanna be part of it.

[El_Revolucionario]

I think that's bullshit. Che would never do such a thing.

[jentle]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 02:16 AM
[QUOTE=Bugalu Shrimp,May 6 2005, 06:09 PM]

I don't know, is AIDs even associated with homosexuality in Cuba? I guess if it was spread from north america it probably would be, since north american infection rates are much higher in homosexual males, but if it came from Africa or elsewhere then you would think that it wouldn't have any association with homosexuality. Theres no natural association with AIDs and homosexuality, its only the case in north america because the first carriers happened to be homosexual so it effected that population to a much great extent.
Actually - in Cuba AIDS is just as apparent in heterosexuals as it in males. How AIDS came to Cuba was through Cuban troops helping out revolutions in Africa. (If you believe in conspiracy theories. AIDS is thought of as biological warfare that was waged on homosexual males in NY and black people in Africa.)

AIDS victims in Cuba are treated far better in Cuba than in North America. One being that healthcare is free and AIDS victims are treated quite well and get all the help they can receive for a disease which has no cure.

[Colombia]

They are treated better, sadly the medicines available aren't better than the USAs.

[aztecklaw]

Originally posted by Knowledge 6 6 [email protected] 11 2005, 01:42 PM
you didn't address the second part of my post; that he replaced those in power with a strong leftist agenda.

I'm all for a revolution if it means equality on every level. If you can't have that politically, (and myself being a political science student) then I don't wanna be part of it.
Well look at it from a global scale.

Capitalism has taken practically the entire world hostage. There are many reasons why there is poverty in this world and starvation and disease, but no other reason could even come close to capitalism's position at being the forefront cause for all these things.

Where is the voice from the poverty stricken? When do you hear those suffering from third world conditions? The most we get is late night Christian charity programs showcasing images of the poor and working on the conscious of Americans living in high standard lifestyles. Who do those programs serve? Those suffering from third world conditions or Americans that need to clear their conscious by giving a buck or two to a 1-800 number?

Let's bring things back into perspective because you may be lost on your well-to-do notion that we must be fair. Che and Castro started the revolution because there was no voice on the national and global scale. There is no diplomatic solution.

The U.S. goes above and beyond putting pressure on socialist movement, they outright eliminate any organization that intends to nationalize a nation that the U.S. already has their foot on. This is exactly the case when it came to Cuba and Castro, we need not go into the extent the U.S. went into to try to remove Castro. This resulted in Castro running a tight ship in Cuba.

What if Castro engaged in an 'open door' policy right after gaining control of Cuba? He would have been killed and it would have been the end of the revolution. After that, socialism would have been silenced again.

So in regards to equality, perhaps you should revisit the balancing scale. There are the few, the rich, that have a mountains of representation and then there are the many that have almost little representation. Lack of representation is no mistake either, they are murderously eliminated by those few that bask in the comfort of their wealthy lifestyle.

So if Castro decided to replace those in power with a strong leftist agenda then that is fine by me. There is plenty of other countries held hostage by those that intend to suppress views and social structures expressed by Che, Castro and the rest of us...

So you being a political science student should come to realize even with a strong leftist agenda in Cuba, the worker, the common man, is still marginally represented in contrast to the mighty few, the the elite of capitalism. Che didn't believe in the UN, he only understood it to be a vehicle of the U.S., but he saw it as an opportunity to spread the message of the negative effects of third world countries. His views still hold true today, there is still an outcry from the third world nations identifying exploitation through captialism and still little or nothing has been done about it.

Castro should make no apologies for not lending a voice to others because it is that same voice that is the chief cause of subhuman standards worldwide.

[codyvo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 11:06 PM
i'd honestly wouldnt kill aids victims but i would section them off in a area of a country where tests could be made to end the epidemic
:unsure:
EAT SHIT AND DIE YOU FASCIST!
Isn't that what Hitler wanted to do so that jews couldn't pass on their evil genes, maybe you should think of a way to reword your beliefs so they don't sound quite as bad.

[waltersm]

agreed, except for the angry part

[codyvo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 10:34 PM
agreed, except for the angry part
Oh I wasn't really that angry, just something funny that me and my friends joke about, I don't get offended so easily, he is allowed to be a fascist if he wants to.

[Anarcho-Communist]

How many of you have read Companero the book?

[Tim]

Thanks 666, I agree with you entirely.

Posters on this site would have you believe that Cuba is some sort of paradise. They'd have you believe that a good part of the population doesn't continue to live in appalling poverty. They'd have you believe that, in this day and age, people aren't sent to barbaric firing squads for "treason" or "anti-revolutionary conduct". This is political genocide and not democratic; how can this be denied? They somehow seem to overlook the fact that Fidel Casto has ruled the country with an iron fist for 40 years; they'd almost have you believe that it's a democracy. Somehow, the fact that the revolution and Castro's rise to power occurred over half a century ago passes them by; the world has changed considerably since. Yet, he still waffles on about his glorious revolution as though it happened yesterday. He continues to hold on to his anachronistic ideals while his people starve. And the world moves on.

Oh yes, I almost forgot. Despite almost all evidence to the contrary, they would have you believe that he loves gay people.

Question; why are there no Cubans posting on this website? Have a look at other websites in English with a focus on a particular country (eg www.brazzil.com)- there are still a lot of foreigners posting in English, so that's not the reason.

Question; how many of the people posting on this site have actually visited Cuba? I'll admit that i have not, and I don't claim to be an expert.

If anyone really believes there is political freedom in Cuba, next time you're there rip out your "Fuck Fidel" t-shirt for the streets of Havana.

Careful though. Don't want to end up in front of a firing squad.

Believe it or not, I am actually an admirer of many of Casto's qualities. But I feel that some people choose to ignore the less palatable aspects of the man that are staring them right in the face.

[Bugalu Shrimp]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 08:45 AM
If anyone really believes there is political freedom in Cuba, next time you're there rip out your "Fuck Fidel" t-shirt for the streets of Havana.


Citizens would tear that shirt from your back not police or agents because they are still, after all these years totally in love with Fidel and respect his guidance. The material poverty rife in Cuba is symptomatic of the U.S blockade. People are not starving, food and essentials are provided only luxury items are scarce. The demorcratic process in Cuba is vastly superior to that of the U.S shambolic system where it basically comes down to money.

[BuyOurEverything]

If anyone really believes there is political freedom in Cuba, next time you're there rip out your "Fuck Fidel" t-shirt for the streets of Havana.

Well I never saw a 'Fuck Fidel' shirt when I was in Cuba (I've actually never seen one even in Canada or the US) but I did see a handful of American flag t-shirts, some from Miami and even a Republican party shirt. No one hassled them at all.

[Wanted Man]

Well, I wonder if the people who posted all this are still around nowadays, and I wonder why it got upped in the first place, but still, I can't allow people to spread such appalling lies.


You cannot possibly tell me that Batista supporters were okay after the revolution. Why do you think most...if not, all of them fled to Miami?
Maybe you should look into what kind of people the Batista supporters were, what they did, and why they fled. And no, they weren't "okay", but they were given a fair trial. Like chebol said, if that hadn't happened the people would have known what to do with them, and it would have been worse than the firing squad. The trials of Batista's supporters at least made sure that nobody would lower themselves to their level.

Those who escaped? Either they knew that they would face long prison sentences or execution because of their crimes against the people, or they simply didn't want to give up their enormous amounts of money and integrate into the new socialist society. It is these same people who are now running a campaign of terror against their own country with the help of the US government.


It WAS political genocide - have you even lived in Cuba?
Have you?


If you did, you'd know that you cannot even speak AGAINST the Castro gov't for fear of imprisonment, and subsequent torture. It's tyrranical rule, something I feel many here do not take into account when talking about the Cuban Revolution.
Did you just pull all of that out of your ass? You're basically claiming that everyone who speaks out against the government gets tortured. Which is funny, because since you live in and are well aware of the situation in Cuba(or at least one would assume so, since you use "OGM U DONT LIVE IN CUBA!!1!11" as an argument), you would have been arrested and tortured too. ;)


But what I like about our capitalist system is that anyone can have a voice against their own government. It's sad to say that you cant have the same under Castro.
How is freedom of speech inherent to capitalism? You may be able to say that Bush sucks now, but come the revolution and you'll find that your rights to speak out against the government will quickly decline. Anyway, since you live in Cuba(hahaha, yeah, right), surely you've noticed people peacefully protesting uninterrupted?

Now for the shining beacon of intelligence by the name of "Tim"...


Posters on this site would have you believe that Cuba is some sort of paradise.
Strawman. I haven't seen anybody claim that, and I would never say it myself either. Perhaps you'd look more credible if you didn't try to make up arguments for supporters of the revolution. Refuting disgusting lies against the revolution, like yours, does not mean we think that Cuba is "some sort of paradise".


They'd have you believe that a good part of the population doesn't continue to live in appalling poverty.
Yes, we would, because that is the truth. If the "good part" of the Cubans live in "appalling poverty", what would you call the rest of Latin America? Hell?


They'd have you believe that, in this day and age, people aren't sent to barbaric firing squads for "treason" or "anti-revolutionary conduct".
Again, yes, we would. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there have been any executions for a long time, until 2003 when some rebels without a clue tried to hijack ships full of people and risk their lives to go to Miami. I do not unconditionally support the death penalty, in fact, if it isn't necessary I'd rather there be no possibility for it at all. Cuba however, is constantly under siege from both inside and outside. The death penalty is no doubt a cruel punishment, but perhaps the Cuban government would not feel it necessary if the Americans, the mobsters in Miami and the Cuban "dissidents" would stop pushing them into a corner.


hey'd almost have you believe that it's a democracy.
No doubt, to appalling supporters of bourgeois liberal democracy like yourself, "democracy" means a political circus that fools an entire people and will never actually bring about any kind of change that the world needs. To a marxist-leninist, democracy means the dictatorship of the proletariat. Of course, people like you are so full of bourgeois buzzwords that you could not comprehend the term "democratic dictatorship", so this paragraph will probably pass you by.

Anyway, there are elections in Cuba. Democracy truly from the people. You don't have to be in the party to become a candidate for municipal or parliamentary elections, and the communist party is not allowed to choose candidates or advertise for them. Not to mention how democracy exists right down to the lowest levels of society. Schools, factories, even neighbourhood committees dedicate themselves to change their part of the country, right down to the decision to renovate a deteriorated neighbourhood.


Somehow, the fact that the revolution and Castro's rise to power occurred over half a century ago passes them by; the world has changed considerably since. Yet, he still waffles on about his glorious revolution as though it happened yesterday. He continues to hold on to his anachronistic ideals while his people starve. And the world moves on.
Somehow, the fact that the revolution will continue to go on as long as counter-revolutionary forces inside and outside the country are still so strong, passes you by. Since the fall of the USSR and with it the socialist market relations, Cuba has pretty much been forced to fend for itself, which it has done remarkably well. If anything, the fact that Cuba now has less resources and still manages to feed, educate and heal its people while it is besieged by a superpower right across the sea that has threatened to end the revolution as soon as Castro dies, only increases my support for it.

And the rest of the world stands still.


Oh yes, I almost forgot. Despite almost all evidence to the contrary, they would have you believe that he loves gay people.
What evidence? Some quote from an era dominated by machismo that is since being fought against? I found the more recent quotes submitted a lot more convincing, but of course in the world of anti-communist propagandists, some loose quotes are worth the most. Who is "he" anyway? Are we still talking about Che, or do you mean Fidel?


Question; why are there no Cubans posting on this website? Have a look at other websites in English with a focus on a particular country (eg www.brazzil.com)- there are still a lot of foreigners posting in English, so that's not the reason.
Why there are no Cubans posting here? Because Cuba is not a large country that is either full of resources, or leaning on the help of dozens of other nations, or exploits the third world(or all of those). What kind of moron would expect the government to care about its people posting on a forum when it still has to deal with the struggles that I've mentioned earlier?


Question; how many of the people posting on this site have actually visited Cuba? I'll admit that i have not, and I don't claim to be an expert.
Having been on a holiday in a country does not an expert make. And even if it did, the large majority of the people who have been to Cuba have reported things that completely contradict your ridiculous attacks against it.


If anyone really believes there is political freedom in Cuba, next time you're there rip out your "Fuck Fidel" t-shirt for the streets of Havana.
Are there even such shirts at all? Ah well, you can try, but if the cops don't get you the other people on the street will.


Careful though. Don't want to end up in front of a firing squad.
Yes, because so many foreign tourists have been shot by the Cuban government for speaking out against Fidel, and still every country but the USA allows tourists to go to Cuba. :rolleyes: If anything you said would make any sense at all, why don't all the brochures by travel agencies to Cuba say something like: "Our agency is not responsible for loss of items or extrajudicial executions for anti-Castro statements"? :lol:


Believe it or not, I am actually an admirer of many of Casto's qualities. But I feel that some people choose to ignore the less palatable aspects of the man that are staring them right in the face.
No, I don't believe it. I believe that your clumsy attempts of propaganda against both the Cuban revolution and its people can be blamed on either your ignorance or a vile wish to discredit a country.

[The Grey Blur]

Tim never said he was from Cuba, he pointed out that he was "no expert", the point still stands; we don't live in Cuba, few of us have even visited Cuba, thus we haven't heard the voice of the Cuban working class (or have we? if there is an article by an average Cuban living in Cuba let me know). I am fully behind Cuba and the socialist society there but let's not pretend there aren't still many problems such as political freedom (by this I mean freedom to express their views, wheher anti-Castro or not) and poverty. Plus, with the amount of foreign investment and lack of true communist direction in Cuba it might not be long until capitalism re-asserts itself there.

[最后的共]

Stop this argueing !!!!!!!!!!!

[Guerrilla22]

The real discussion should be how the US government created the HIV virus in a labotory and unleashed it upon the world in type of ugenenis project. Maybe another thread.

[Simotix]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 03:09 AM
The real discussion should be how the US government created the HIV virus in a labotory and unleashed it upon the world in type of ugenenis project. Maybe another thread.
0_o Did they really?

[Patchy]

No.

[Simotix]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 06:13 AM
No.
thats what i thought lol

[Le Libérer]

This thread should have died a tragic death back in May. Its offically closed. RIP.