Gay Marriage

[Irish_Bebop]

This has been in the media alot recently, home and abroad.

Personally i dont get it, The basis for every democracy is suppose to be, 'every man(figuratively speaking of course) is created equal' and if men are judged as equal in the eyes of the law then why is that same law denying them the equality that they deserve?
And yet around the world there is seperation on the issue, the most recent example is the split in the anglican church over the acceptance of gay bishops. Of course countries around the world have also outlawed gay marraige.
Why? Does religion really hold such power over todays modern states, for as far as i can see the only issue with homosexuality can be from a religious stand point. Or is it that macho insecurity and blatant bigotry on the subject is still so pressed into peoples consciousness that the thought of same sex couples is so unbearable?
What is so wrong with gays, is their something i don't know?

[The Grapes of Wrath]

Dude, first off, please don't use the words you are using to describe these different peoples. I realize that you are highlighting them for an issue, but still, they are unappropriate and your argument did not need them to be used. It was just a poor choice in language.


In response to your question, religion I'm sure has some things to do with it, but at the same time, I think tradition takes hold. In America, we had this "problem" (if you wish to call it that) last year. Certain cities and counties in California and Massachusetts passed laws that recognized gay marriages. These were struck down by those state's supreme courts.

The funny thing is, Massachussetts is arguably the most liberal state in the United States ... so why would MA Democrats oppose the gay right to marry? Tradition. Most people were opposed to the simply word choosing ... "marriage." Almost everyone has in their minds that marriage is between a man and a woman. You change the definition of marriage, and everyone is lost.

Many people do not object to a gay union, they just don't like the word marriage being thrown in. While there is plenty of opposition to gays in America and surely throughout the world, we can see the beginings of a change in attitude. These things take time.

I have no idea if that answered your questions though.

TGOW

[Sabocat]

Actually, Massachusetts has same sex marriage, not just civil unions. It was upheld by the Supreme Judicial Court that it would be un-Constitutional to bar them from marriage.

There are currently a lot of struggles going on now to try and have it repealed, however I think it will stand. I think people here have found that the world didn't end with the first couple of thousand marriages.

You are correct that a lot of the Mass. Democrats oppose same sex marriage, but the explanation is rather simple. Most of the long time Dems. here are Irish Catholic, and they are trying to keep their rather large and vociferous group of Irish Catholic constituents appeased.

[Irish_Bebop]

*Closing statement edited for homophobic, racist remarks*

apologies, it was meant in an Ironic tone to illistrate the inherent bigotry in the system.

[cormacobear]

Mass. is also the one of the two most Catholic states. It'll be legal in all of Canada by the end of the year. I think if it offends the religious to share the term marriage it should be taken from the law entirely, call people a registered couple or something. What they fail to realize is that it is the same seperation of church and state that means the government can't make church's marry gays. Giving equal status in law to Gay unions in fact protects our religious beleifs by proving the law cannot dictate religious practice and that a single religion cannot dictate the law.

[flyby]

I would recommend this article by the revolutionary communists... since it connects this issue of gay marriage withthe larger drive to impose traditional relations -- i..e. it shows this isn't just bigotry, but part of a large attempt to remake society in very reactionary ways.

Anti-Gay Marriage Amendment: Tightening Tradition's Chains (http://rwor.org/a/1231/gaymarriage.htm)

also:

Furor over Gay Marriage: The Insane Ravings of the marriage Police (http://rwor.org/a/1210/gaymarriage.htm)

It shows how the fight over gay marriage is connect to a fight over what kind of future we have, and what kind of intimate social relations get imposed (and enforced) on us all!

[cormacobear]

There isn't going to be a referendum in Canada, despite the almost 50/50 split of the public. It was deemed a violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and thus it must be changed, law before social engineering thank God. :D

[codyvo]

Not many people here will disagree that their is nothing wrong with gay marriage, I say if you dont like gay marriage dont marry gays. But this issue rises a more important question, how seperate are church and state?

[TheKwas]

Let's take the government out of Marriage completely. It's a cultural and personal issue, so thus lets leave it to the cultural instutions and the persons wishing to be married.

There is no need to have the government involved in marriage in the first place. Let people make marriage whatever the hell they want.

[Iepilei]

I was reading in a state-assigned government textbook on the issue of equal rights. It claimed that homosexuals have a harder time in the struggle for civil rights because, "there are no positive labels associated with homosexuality."

Pretty sick, eh?

:ph34r:

[TheKwas]

There's no postive labels associated with lesbians?

[Commie Girl]

:) I have been working very hard in Canada to ensure that Gay Marriage is passed into law. The religious right has received generous support from some groups in the U$, but it looks like the bill will pass! Our argument in favour of gay marriage is a matter of equality.....simple. The last poll shows 54% of Canadians support gay marriage...most of the youth I have talked to dont even understand why there is any debate on this, they see it as a natural progression of Human Rights, there are more important things to be debating.

[Wurkwurk]

Originally posted by Commie [email protected] 27 2005, 04:33 PM
:) I have been working very hard in Canada to ensure that Gay Marriage is passed into law. The religious right has received generous support from some groups in the U$, but it looks like the bill will pass! Our argument in favour of gay marriage is a matter of equality.....simple. The last poll shows 54% of Canadians support gay marriage...most of the youth I have talked to dont even understand why there is any debate on this, they see it as a natural progression of Human Rights, there are more important things to be debating.
Congratulations =D! Thank you so very much for working for the advancement of Human Rights, and even more so for suceeding!

God, i wanna move to Canada :P


Anyways, there is nothing wrong with gay people. Easy as that. They deserve respect no more and no less that should be given to any other person in the world.

[Exploited Class]

Well the definition argument is bogus, because 50 years ago they weren't saying men and women, they were saying people because the notion that gays would look for marriage was non-existant. That is why there was an invention called closets, they weren't seen from or heard. People who go on about "that is the way it has always been." aren't taking in account of the d'uh factor, of course it has always been like that, you have always hated gays.

It is change that they are worried about, they didn't like blacks and whites mixing, they didn't like catholics and protestants mixing either.

I have won some arguments on the subject asking, "How do you feel about a man who has murdered and a woman who has murdered getting married?" Okay so you can accept sharing marriage with murders but not gays? Do you think you might need to re-asses your social values when you grant rights to murderers over a minority group in society? How much do you hate gays?

People who are against it, it really comes down to them not liking the mental image of two guys kissing and butt sex. America is such a homophobic culture, I went to Europe, two grown men kiss each other who aren't related. That would never happen in America. Friends of the same sex (not gay) will hold hands in public, again not something you will see in rough and tumble macho America. To do so equates with being gay and we evidenlty hate gays so much hetros won't even risk being thought that way and won't do it. That is a lot of social homophobia.
When you won't even do something because you might be thought of that of as that hated and despised group.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 03:02 AM
Not many people here will disagree that their is nothing wrong with gay marriage, I say if you dont like gay marriage dont marry gays. But this issue rises a more important question, how seperate are church and state?
Not very, dubya is the president of the religous right.

[tebvie]

I agree w/ 'clenched fist' church and state aren't being seperadted they should be. It would be hard to argue that, at least in the case of the U.S., church and state are completley seperate. I believe that bush once mentioned something about building or the U.S. is a christian nation, seperation of church and state I think not.