What impact did Che Guevara have on Bolivia?

[fernando]

Look at the name of the topic, that is basicly my question. He went to Bolivia in attempt to create a revolution and he failed. But what impact did his actions have on Bolivia? Did the government oppress the people even more? Did they give the people more freedom in order to prevent them from growing angry? Did they US send more military there? What happened?

[Colombia]

Che did not make an impact. The Bolivian army didn't do much to oppress it's people seeing that they are too poor to even bother with such a thing?

[Latin America]

Sorry if my english sucks but there it goes!

He was the biguest non bolivian fugure in Bolivia! I could say he had more impact after his death especially on university students! He started the guerrillas in Bolivia but mainly failed because Bolivia had allready a revolution in 1952 before Che came to Bolivia, but from the government yes there was opresion especially to the miners and some bolivians living in the guerrilla area, I believe the COB central obrera boliviana(they are an union of all the miners in bolivia) were having a metting at night and they were discussing among other things the prescense of the guerrillas in bolivia(they were in favor of the guerrillas). While they were having the metting the bolivian army with the order of the dictator General Barrientos assesinate top people and miners that night, also the people living along the guerrilla area were ask for information, bitting and sometimes death if they had something to do with the guerrilass. The US send Top rank soldiers to Bolivia in order to train the Bolivian military (by then the bolivian army sufered 2 succesfull guerrilla attacks) After the training everything turn to the other side for the Bolivian Army and General Barrientos. The top rank US soldiers were called the "boinas verdes". To be honest the 1952 revolution of the "MNR" (Movimiento Nacionalista Revelucionario) change everything in Bolivian and I mean in a good way back in the day. Right now Bolivia is the 2nd poorest country in the continent.
The MNR gave to the Indigenou citizens land, something big since that was the main problem "the land". Also they let women vote. They educate the children (65% of the bolivian did't speak spanish mainly Quechua, Aimara and guarani) And specially the nationalization of many private companies! It was basically a socialist party. El che did't see this, plus the communist parties in bolivia didn't suppot him and I could say basically because the majority bolivian people who live around the guerrilla are did't speak spanish but Quechua.

To me el Che is the greates figure ever, he was honest and he did what it was right but mainly because he wanted to change South America, he saw the social problems amoung the south American people and even though he knew he could die he did something about it! He is a hero!!!

[1936]

Bolivia was not Guevaras failure. He was not at fault for the results of the revolution.

If not for Che bolivia would have never known that there troubles were not only being heard and seen by the world but by the communist comunity, to of which the communist community accted upon the oppresion of the country.

It was more the incompetence of the guerillas then anything. I recomend you read "the Bolivian diaries" you will recognise the fact that he was given everything by Fidel, but the men required.

Ches diarie, entry of 25th of Febuary 1967

Pacho called me to say that he and Marcos had an agrument, and that marcos had given him arbitaray orders and had threatend Pacho with a machete, hitting him in the face with the handle when Pacho returned and told Marcos that he was not going on Marcos threatend him again with the machete and shook him tearing hes clothes.

And that was at a page i randomly opend, the incompetence of a guerilla called Loro in the begining of the book is so clear i remember the destruction of a truck without having to look at the book for atleast a month.

[viva le revolution]

It's true Che guevara had an impact on Bolivia.He brought attention to the socialist mode of governmaent there, even though the revolution ultimately failed. In my opinon the main reason for the failure of the revolution(apart from CIA intrigues) was that the revolution was brought by non-bolivians. The main instigators were the cubans. The reason why the Cuban revolution was so successful was that it was a revolution by cubans for Cuba, therefore the revolutionaries were more committed to the cause.
Had it been a mainly Bolivian movement, the results would have been much different, the revolution would not have been seen as an outside force, therefore it would have enjoyed greater support from the bolivian communists, and would have had greater appeal for the local population, who would have had stronger regard for it and embraced the cause as their own, instead of a regarding it with suspicion as a movement brought over by foreigners.

[fernando]

But if you look at the situation in Bolivia after Guevara's death you'll notice that the things that did change there were not because of Guevara's actions, but merely the government trying to please the Americans and the elite. This is shown by the economic growth which came a few years later, however things such as freedom for the people were completely ignored.

The revolution failed partly because of it's international character, but also because of the lack of support by the local communists who were more loyal to the USSR (who were not that fond of Cuba starting revolutions throughout Latin America), the incompetence of some of his troops (Tanya picking up Bustos and Debray wasnt very secretive it was pretty noticable).

More soon...I should try to translate my final paper and put it here :)

[Latin America]

Cpt.Anarchy Posted on Mar 25 2005, 08:39 PM
Bolivia was not Guevaras failure. He was not at fault for the results of the revolution.

If not for Che bolivia would have never known that there troubles were not only being heard and seen by the world but by the communist comunity, to of which the communist community accted upon the oppresion of the country.

It was more the incompetence of the guerillas then anything. I recomend you read "the Bolivian diaries" you will recognise the fact that he was given everything by Fidel, but the men required.

Ches diarie, entry of 25th of Febuary 1967

QUOTE
Pacho called me to say that he and Marcos had an agrument, and that marcos had given him arbitaray orders and had threatend Pacho with a machete, hitting him in the face with the handle when Pacho returned and told Marcos that he was not going on Marcos threatend him again with the machete and shook him tearing hes clothes.

And that was at a page i randomly opend, the incompetence of a guerilla called Loro in the begining of the book is so clear i remember the destruction of a truck without having to look at the book for atleast a month.


There is many reasons why the guerrilla failed in Bolivia.

[fernando]

I personally think that Guevara would have had a better chance in Peru, where he wanted to go in the first place...

[Latin America]

Or may be in Argentina.

[fernando]

Guevara already set up a small guerilla movement in Argentina, but the situation in Peru was ideal for his arrival, there were several movements very active and the leadership had just been taken out, so he could have stepped in and taken over the leadership.

But then again Bolivia had a more strategic location, and Guevara relied too much on the local communist party and hoped for more USSR and Chinese support.

[Latin America]

It seems you can't even trust your shirt! :(

[aberos]

ummm...i do not believe that che had originally planned on going to peru.

boliva was NOT che's failure. it was the failure of his supporting network.

che had a huge impact on bolivia as well as the rest of the world.

[Latin America]

aberos Posted on Apr 1 2005, 08:56 AM
ummm...i do not believe that che had originally planned on going to peru.

boliva was NOT che's failure. it was the failure of his supporting network.

che had a huge impact on bolivia as well as the rest of the world.


I believe you are rigth, he didn't have enough support when he really need it.

[fernando]

ummm...i do not believe that che had originally planned on going to peru.
Read Anderson's book on it.


boliva was NOT che's failure. it was the failure of his supporting network.
It was still a failure, mistakes were made by everyone including Guevara.


che had a huge impact on bolivia as well as the rest of the world.
What changed in Bolivia because of Guevara? What was that big impact? Sure people here wear his shirt and he is a martyr of rebellion and the Revolution, but were there big changes in the world because of Guevara?


I believe you are rigth, he didn't have enough support when he really need it.
The radio of Guevara's group in Bolivia got damaged, hence they were unable to communicate with Cuba in order for the second group of guerilla's to be send. Mario Monje and his local communists ditched the guerillas. The USSR was sort of in a time of coexistence with the US, which meant they did not support these kind of actions in Latin America, besides Guevara was starting to show more loyalties with the Chinese which meant they had to get rid of him even faster.

[Latin America]

fernando Posted on Apr 1 2005, 12:04 PM
QUOTE
ummm...i do not believe that che had originally planned on going to peru.


Read Anderson's book on it.


QUOTE
boliva was NOT che's failure. it was the failure of his supporting network.


It was still a failure, mistakes were made by everyone including Guevara.


QUOTE
che had a huge impact on bolivia as well as the rest of the world.


What changed in Bolivia because of Guevara? What was that big impact? Sure people here wear his shirt and he is a martyr of rebellion and the Revolution, but were there big changes in the world because of Guevara?


QUOTE
I believe you are rigth, he didn't have enough support when he really need it.


The radio of Guevara's group in Bolivia got damaged, hence they were unable to communicate with Cuba in order for the second group of guerilla's to be send. Mario Monje and his local communists ditched the guerillas. The USSR was sort of in a time of coexistence with the US, which meant they did not support these kind of actions in Latin America, besides Guevara was starting to show more loyalties with the Chinese which meant they had to get rid of him even faster.


It seems you been doing your homework fernando! :)

You know fernando, sometimes I just imagine how Bolivia could be if the guerrillas came to be a succseful campaign (che guerrillas).

[fernando]

Yeah I actually finished writing my final paper...however Im not allowed to copy it here since it's part of my exam thing, so it might be considered fraud or something strange like that.

Anderson's book gives a view of how Guevara thought things would go, the revolution would spread across the region, making Peru and Argentina socialist as well. The US would be forced to spread its forces even thinner, making it very possible for more revolutions to rise up and also for the USSR and China to attack.

[Colombia]

I don't recall Guevara ever mentioning anything about attacking the USA directly. What page in the book?

[BigMik]

Victory over half-ass communist armies

[Picture removed]

[fernando]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 06:52 AM
I don't recall Guevara ever mentioning anything about attacking the USA directly. What page in the book?
It might not have been a direct attack on the US, it is the possibility of creating more revolutions world wide, the US would have to spread its forces more thinly across the globe ince more rebellions are breaking out. Im not at home right now but I will give the page when Im back:)

[aberos]

i seem to remember che's plan as going to bolivia because of its proximity to argentina. i have read anderson's book as well as the collected biographies of che, the che guevara reader, guerrilla warfare, global justice, self-portait, etc. please do not talk down to me.

and i am aware of the situation that was bolivia during che's attempted insurrection, but that does not change the fact that he and his men were failed by his comrades in cuba. jla's book goes into a fair amount of detail on this subject.

i suppose that one could argue that che has not had a lasting visible impact on bolivia, but i mean it in the sense that through the events of his death in bolivia he has become a martyr and a legend and undermined the cia and bolivian regime of the time.

[pandora]

Che had a lasting impact on Bolivia by giving his life for the Bolivian people. He wanted to spread Revolution as you all well know in the alto plano as a plane for invading all the countries of South America with Argentina at the forefront, but also Chile and Peru.

He was shorted men, and he really should have never gone because people he placed down there early had alerted the military's suspicions of Cuban involvement, particularly a certain East German woman who insisted on riding around in a jeep like a rock star with a pair of shades on when they were supposed to be incognito, Tania also was found dead when captured with pictures of Che on her person. Tania should never have been in Bolivia after Che and her started having an affair she began behaving like a teenager, she should have returned to East Germany.

Regardless, there are those, including Che's ex-girlfriend in Argentina, that Che was sent to Bolivia on a suicide run, to acheive the impossible and if he didn't to die tryings. Revolution in Argentina was no piece of cake, each left wing guerrilla group was hunted down and killed only to be replaced by another, killed, and then another. The situation in South America was impossible without unification. Chile with Allende should have been first, and then spreading from there too Bolivia and then Argentina, Peru, Brazil, Columbia, Venezuala, Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Grenada: Che jumped the gun, because he was bored and he did not have the support of the Kremlin or the unified support of the Chinese, he was operating alone.

To say he was deserted by Castro is ridiculous as in Angola as well, USSR was running the Cuban military in return for missles during the missle crisis, and back up against the brutality of a US invasion. China was not willing to fill that position with its eyes on Korea and Vietnam. Up until recent years China has been historically conservative in terms of isolationism, keeping its targets close. It has been one of the strengths of the nation to learn not to spread herself too thin, of course, now with the temptation of global capitalism China is over exerting past her boundries, and may pay for this, by sending out contracts to nations such as Nicaragua, no doubt part of CAFTA is to counter China entering the hemisphere, but really what's bothering the US is the ghost of the Monroe Doctrine, a document which would have been more fully explored in the situation if China had backed Che in Bolivia.

The men who trained under Che and his compatriots in Guatemala have all had histories of their own if you look at many of the aforementioned history. To shorten Che's legacy is poor respect to the reality that they accomplished a hell of a lot and the next generation has some very large boots to fill, and I do not see the training available that once was for left wing intellectuals with Friendship University in Moscow gone.,etc.

The best one can do now is follow the Parisian example.

[fernando]

i seem to remember che's plan as going to bolivia because of its proximity to argentina.

Bolivia was picked for its location, its very central location would make it perfect to stage guerilla attacks throughout the region.


i have read anderson's book as well as the collected biographies of che, the che guevara reader, guerrilla warfare, global justice, self-portait, etc. please do not talk down to me.

Where am I talking down to you? Is talking down to you when I dont agree a full 100%?


and i am aware of the situation that was bolivia during che's attempted insurrection, but that does not change the fact that he and his men were failed by his comrades in cuba. jla's book goes into a fair amount of detail on this subject.
True, but the failure is not solely in the hands of the Cuban government, also in Guevara himself and the local comminists.


I don't recall Guevara ever mentioning anything about attacking the USA directly. What page in the book?
You are right, it's not a direct attack at the US, but an attack against US imperialism, a plan to bring down US imperialism for once and for all, read pages 703 and 704 of JLA's book. :)

[aberos]

i apologize fernando. i thought when you made the statement that i should jla's book that you were implying that i have read very little fact about him. i have a little bit of an inferiority complex which sometimes causes me to get a little overly-defensive. so, again, i apologize.

and in saying the cuban gov't failed che, i did not mean fidel, but, rather, the network headed by barba roja that was supposed to be helping and aiding him.

[fernando]

i apologize fernando. i thought when you made the statement that i should jla's book that you were implying that i have read very little fact about him. i have a little bit of an inferiority complex which sometimes causes me to get a little overly-defensive. so, again, i apologize.

It's okay :)


and in saying the cuban gov't failed che, i did not mean fidel, but, rather, the network headed by barba roja that was supposed to be helping and aiding him.
It was the Cuban intelligence that failed yes! But I also think that Fidel might not have wanted to risk more in order to support Che because he was afraid of the reaction of the USSR.

[aberos]

i see your point, but fidel's loyalty always remained with che in my opinion. for example, when he publicly comdemned the ussr's governing junta in one of his speeches, fidel refused to reproach him or apologize for him because he supported che before the ussr.

[fernando]

Well, there are lots of conspiracy theories about Castro's involvement with Che's death, maybe he indirectly is involved through the lack of good intelligence?

[aberos]

that arguement could be made because of his lack of involvement with che when he went to bolivia, but i always took that as because che wanted fidel to avoid involvement in order to protect cuba. it was che who left fidel, not the other way around

[El_Revolucionario]

Here's a nice fact:

Bolivia is named after Simón Bolívar, a hero who helped many Latin American countries gain independence. The Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela is also named after him, with "Bolivarian" coming from his name.

:D

[fernando]

Does this mean that we might have a country or a city named afte Che Guevara?

[aberos]

i would not be opposed to living in guevaraville, cheland.

[fernando]

I think that if there will be a big revolution or anything in the lines of that in Latin America Guevara's impact will be even greater, his death and sacrifice might have been the reason why this whole new revolution might start.

Okay...Im being over speculative here

[aberos]

maybe so fernando, but i see and agree with your point. as i said earlier, his death sublimated him from man to myth, legend, and martyr. the widespread revolutionary fervor present in la is, i believe, continued because of che and the way the dictators fear his name. he is the latin american revolution.

[fernando]

It's not only his sacrifice, it was also his working attitude, he just quit his high position in the Cuban government to realise his ideals, risking everything for the greater good. Even Guevara's enemies have to respect this.