communist state

[Red Robe Majere]

The only way to have a revolution in the us is to make a communist state gather up in a state get people on the senate and the house and slowly move out so the question is which state?
A state with a low population? or
A hippyish state that as anarchists in it?

my vote for this state is vermont

[redstar2000]

That would not work.

Here's why.

Let's imagine that "hard-core commies" were a majority of the electorate in that ice-bound state. We had a majority in both houses of the state legislature, Vermont's lone representative to Congress was a commie and both of our U.S. Senators were commies.

Now what happens?

Well, since we're "hard-core commies", we try to introduce communist measures...only to run up against capitalist LAW!

When we try to expropriate private property for the benefit of the people, the Vermont Supreme Court will stop us. Even if we manage to get past that hurdle, the corporations will take us to federal court...and we'll lose!

When we raise taxes on the rich and lower them on the poor, the rich will move to Maine or New Hampshire and the Vermont state government will go broke!

And so on, and so on, and so on. What will quickly be discovered is what should have been known all along...you can't do socialism/communism within the framework of capitalism.

This is why communists "make a big deal" out of what Marx and Engels observed during the Paris Commune: communists cannot "take over" the capitalist state machinery -- it must be utterly destroyed and replaced by something completely different.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[RedAnarchist]

Its like when the bourgoisie revolutions happened - they got rid of the old feudal system such as monarchy and everything.

[Red Robe Majere]

Point taken

[KptnKrill]

Actually condensing the anarko-communist / syndicalist population into one general region doesn't seem like such a bad idea.

Infiltrating and "overpowering" and "converting" the current population and society of vermont wouldn't be terribly difficult as the population is so low, and it's one of the more "liberal" states in the union. If memory serves me correctly, it's the only state with a socialist representative (state-level of course).

On the subject of "law", law is an institution created by the bourgeoisie to enslave the general population. It's falsely added officiality on top of the rules society already provides. In the end, if society does not support a law, then is it even a law?

The new society itself would destroy the "capitalist state machinery", simply by not following it and not believing in it. The federal government can't forcibly maintain a government if the people do not desire one...

I'm guessing redstar, that by your talk of laws and taxes that you are a statist, no?

As for ice-bound... It's vermont, it's not like we're talking about greenland ;)

[Guest]

ha, id kill y'all first. i got more guns than all you anarchists and commies put together. and i got people that know how to use em. keep dreaming scum

[Iepilei]

I think that having socialist Senators would be a good way to influence ideas. But I agree, you probably won't see much change come from it. That's not to say that we should just give up on the idea; we need socialists in every office of every brance of every administration. Put them on the mic and in the court-room, anywhere and everywhere.

You'd be suprised at how many American's don't know any better. A debate against them can easily be won and their influences can be easily changed.

All it takes is charisma.

:ph34r:

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 07:09 AM
I think that having socialist Senators would be a good way to influence ideas. But I agree, you probably won't see much change come from it. That's not to say that we should just give up on the idea; we need socialists in every office of every brance of every administration. Put them on the mic and in the court-room, anywhere and everywhere.

You'd be suprised at how many American's don't know any better. A debate against them can easily be won and their influences can be easily changed.

All it takes is charisma.

:ph34r:
I suppose representation would be a start, ssp have some effect in the scottish parliment.

[Red Robe Majere]

ha, id kill y'all first. i got more guns than all you anarchists and commies put together. and i got people that know how to use em. keep dreaming scum

you may but i think you will be to busy drinking beer and watching nascar to notice or you will be with bush and his cruesade

[Mitch Flo]

Nice one....

you may but i think you will be to busy drinking beer and watching nascar to notice or you will be with bush and his cruesade

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by KptnKrill
The new society itself would destroy the "capitalist state machinery", simply by not following it and not believing in it. The federal government can't forcibly maintain a government if the people do not desire one...

Ask the Iraqis.

Or the unhappy folk of many lands where U.S. quislings rule.


I'm guessing redstar, that by your talk of laws and taxes that you are a statist, no?

No.

And welcome to the board, n00b. :D


As for ice-bound... It's Vermont, it's not like we're talking about Greenland.

I am reliably informed that the temperature falls so low there that liquid water actually becomes solid and is called "ice" and "snow"...indeed, that this happens for many months at a time, which the inhabitants call "winter".

Sounds rather unpleasant. :lol:

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[Red Robe Majere]

my sister lives there it isnt like green land were 80% of the land is icecaped
but it does get to cold to snow there it goes as low as like -15

[Red Robe Majere]

why was this moved to learning?

[redstar2000]

Because it's a really elementary question -- the nature of the capitalist state and why you can't just "take it over".

The Practice forum is really for stuff that people can immediately do.

And the Theory forum is for more advanced topics.

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[workersunity]

try to go for electoral politics, its still good, but hes right, the only reputable way to achieve communism is by demolishing capitalism, with the majority on your side

[codyvo]

Well even if this wouldn't do much to suade the opinions of others it would be more progress then all of us sittin' around typing on the computer.

[workersunity]

true, but when the revolution comes, it wouldnt be a bad idea to start in those kinda states

[Guest1]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 01:46 PM
Well even if this wouldn't do much to suade the opinions of others it would be more progress then all of us sittin' around typing on the computer.
Most people here already do more than that, and all of it is more useful in the long run than moving.

So let's see, you organize a mass exodus of all your working class radicals, all the student radicals, and carry them off to vermont. With no connections with anyone living there already, you come in as these outsiders with radically different ideas and have never contributed to the struggle there, but presume you can tell them how to move forward towards working class power.

So that doesn't go over well, you're isolated and looked on as basically invaders. Then, before you know it, you've got a voice on how to run the system of oppression in vermont. Great, now what, well, as redstar says, you get nowhere. Not only that, but because you've moved everyone out from everywhere else int he us, you've decapitated every movement in the us. All the revolutionary socialists have cut ties and dropped the networking and the work they've been doing across the us, so now you've got a giant skyscraper of a movement in vermont, but with zero foundation in either vermont or the rest of the country.

Who knows, without any support elsewhere, they could probably use the army against you without much dissent.

So vermont is crushed, and the US working class movement is set back 25, maybe 50 years thanks to a very hasty and ill-conceived utopian/reformist plot.

Bravo.

[NovelGentry]

Whether or not the proposed system at hand will work, Vermont is of course where the revolution will begin. Sunday May 15th.

[extreme_left_ak]

R.R.M

Your right

[Social Greenman]

Revolution is not a regional event but a national/international one. Moving everyone to Vermont will not solve a thing but strip the Left from the rest of the U.S. Also, electing Congreesmen to represent the state of Vermont will not solve a thing because independents either have to side with either Republican or Democrats. They have no real voice nor can they sit on committes from what I understand. Another thing I have learned is that there is a capitalist Libertarian group setting up a community in New Hampshire:
http://www.freestateproject.org/

I can just imagine a Socialist state right next to an unbridled capitalist state.

Social

[workersunity]

oh great, more crazy libertarians

[Matthew The Great]

Libertarians are nice when you get to know them.

Two of my best friends are libs. I think they are crazy and they think I am crazy. No one can win.