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codyvo
25th February 2005, 21:39
Who do you support the Israeli's or the Palestinians?


I think that Palestine should be its own country for a number of reasons.

Ele'ill
25th February 2005, 21:55
List the reasons ;)

Irish_Bebop
25th February 2005, 22:11
I side quite heartily with the Palestinian cause; chased off their land, refused return, made to live under apartheid conditions, i don't know how anyone could justify that.
However, when it comes to demonising Israel, im slightly less absolute. Blame must be laid with the Israelis as they have violated numerous decrees and conventions, and have resorted to the most hanous acts against ordinary Palestinian people. But, you can understand their plight, to an extent. Arab nations have been hugely agressive towards israel (and hypocritical when faced with the Palestinian issue, as they claim they seek freedom for Palesine, yet they themselves treat Palestinians as second class citizens, who are afforded nearly no rights in neighbouring Arab states), and the Israeli government is genuinly concerned over the lives of its citizens, as the targeting of civilians is equaly dispicable as some Israeli actions.

I do believe though, that Israel is nearly always the instigator of this aggression, from the moment they set foot on Palestinian land they have waged a bloody battle against its people. i feel that Israel has little to no claim to that land, as their largest points are biblical (and i find it ridiculous that that would count for anything in this day and age), and the fact thst they have had a continued presence in Palestine for thousands of years. However Palestine has been a prodomenantly Arab state for the past 1 400 years. If the historic claims of Israelis are to be taken seriously, then the Chinese can lay claim to much of San fransisco and New York.
But in the context of modern history, israel has a valid holding on the land, and as such peace should be sought and compromises brokered.

On this point to i see Israel as being the main obsticle, their policies serve only to antagonise the downtrodden Palestinians, for example, even their withdrawl plans are actually aimed at delaying any action while at the same time covering their true goals on other fronts. Palestinians are not innocent in this regard either, as long as these fundimentalists are allowed to run rampant, Israel will have as much justification as it will ever need to reign more havoc about Palestinian refugees. arafat himself also let down his cause, he was too leanient on radacals and too uncompromising in negotiations, the greatest chance for peace was thwarted by his foolishness (but he was a great man, its sad that his legacy will be clouded by his greatest short-comings).

Thankfully now both sides are making great steps towards a lasting peace, both sides ushering in great reforms.


On the whole though, i blame Britain for giving away what was never theirs, and therefor creating half a centuary of misery and conflict. And so its imperialism ends in the spirit in which it lived.

codyvo
25th February 2005, 22:17
1-Palestinians have been living there for thousands of years
2-While Israelis have been in charge Palestinians have been stripped of all their rights
3-Palestine does not want to take over they just want Palestine to be an individual nation

Phalanx
25th February 2005, 22:21
Just in-blast at a Tel Aviv seafront promenade. Casualties are at least 24 wounded with several dead. Times like these make me side with the Israelis. Both sides target each other's civilians, but the Israelis don't have the killing of civilians down to an art, like the militants. Until the killing of civilians stop, this conflict will go on for eternety. As to the comment that Israelis have no claim to the land, I believe that would be an effective argument 50 years ago, when Israel was created. But now, the native-born Jewish population of Israel consists of over 65%. I realize that the Arabs are nearly all native born, but they can't make people that were born there like themselves leave. However, during the War of Independence, the Arab leaders were spreading rumors that the Israelis were to massacre them all. Thus, there was a mass exodus of people caused by their leaders. The reasoning behind this i do not know, but Israelis should not be totally blamed for the Palestinian diaspora.

Irish_Bebop
25th February 2005, 22:42
3-Palestine does not want to take over they just want Palestine to be an individual nation

that may be true now as they see no alternative, but since the struggle began Palestinians and the Arab world (maybe more the Arab world than the Palestinians) would stop at nothing to drive the infidel invaders from their shores. Its Islamic neighbours have made several attempts to do just that.

Phalanx
25th February 2005, 22:47
True, during the war of independence, Palestinain propoganda airing on the air were telling Jews that they were about to push them into the Medeterranean sea. They also had said they were going to dring their blood from their skulls. Seems abit barbaric. Now as they see the Israeli determination to stay, they realize they must share. Now the Jewish fanatics mush realize this, and once they do, the nationalists will not have so much public support from both sides.

Karl Marx's Camel
25th February 2005, 23:05
I support neither in this conflict.

The working class on both sides need to stand united.

Ele'ill
25th February 2005, 23:09
What about the rest of the 'classes'.

Intifada
26th February 2005, 00:09
Until the killing of civilians stop, this conflict will go on for eternety.

No.

Until the illegal occupation of Palestinian territories stops, there will be no peace.


However, during the War of Independence, the Arab leaders were spreading rumors that the Israelis were to massacre them all.

The Zionists openly advocated (and put into practice) the forced expulsion of Palestinian civilians, from their homeland.


Just in-blast at a Tel Aviv seafront promenade. Casualties are at least 24 wounded with several dead.

As for the news, as sad as it is, Israel's violation of the ceasefire was bound to see some form of revenge.

Iepilei
26th February 2005, 01:12
I think the entire area is a cesspool of fundamentalist thought.

TheKwas
26th February 2005, 01:14
I believe Self-determination is a right... therefore I throw my suppport behind the Palastinians.

Irish_Bebop
26th February 2005, 13:00
As for the news, as sad as it is, Israel's violation of the ceasefire was bound to see some form of revenge.

When did Israel break the cease fire?

Colombia
26th February 2005, 13:07
The ends don't justify the means and because the Palestinians have resorted to bombing crowded nightclubs filled with young Israelis, there war for freedom will never get my backing until they decide to attack the right things.

bolshevik butcher
26th February 2005, 13:08
I support the plaistsineans, the peace process is looking up at the moment, i odn't want to see israel puched into the sea though.

Colombia
26th February 2005, 13:17
How is it looking good? Some guy just blew himself up in a nightclub yesterday!

Non-Sectarian Bastard!
26th February 2005, 13:46
Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 12:09 AM
What about the rest of the 'classes'.
Why do you put classes in " "?

BTW: Israel kills twice as many civilians as the Palestinian millitants do. Israel aggresivly colonizes, Israel treats Arab citizens as second-class citizens, Israel has a massmurderer as PM. So it's a bit hard to blame it all on Palestine isn't, Colombia?

I am sure that the Palestinians blow up themselves up for fun and without a reason. Go back to sleep.

Intifada
26th February 2005, 15:41
When did Israel break the cease fire?

A Palestinian man, of 20 years, died hours after he was wounded by gunfire from an illegal Gaza Jewish settlement, a day after the so-called "truce" was declared by both Abbas and Sharon.

Link (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7622DAE0-3BFA-4F73-88C1-CD2BB1DCB859.htm)

Then, Israeli occupation forces shot and killed another Palestinian in Ram Allah.

Link (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/72A72EC3-EEE7-47B8-ACF2-6CDCB64F672D.htm)

On the 14th of February, Israeli forces shot and killed a 13 year old Palestinian boy, in Hebron.

Link (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/133CA257-CE27-40A9-AE43-426519E1302B.htm)

Two Palestinians were then shot and killed by Israeli Occupying Forces, near Nablus, on the 15th of February.

Link (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/1654FF89-B62E-4D1E-BA35-B97157278C70.htm)

On the 20th of February, two Palestinians were shot and wounded by Israeli Occupying Forces, in the Gaza Strip.

Link (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/D686AA54-274D-4837-B9DE-25C88C7C11DB.htm)

The fact is that the Western media will not report, fully, these incidents, so when Palestinians retaliate it is seen by the naive public as "Palestinian terrorists" disrupting the "Peace-process."

The Israelis are the aggressors in this conflict.

The Palestinians, like any other oppressed people, will fight back, against Israeli aggression.

RedFlagOverTrenton
26th February 2005, 16:31
Here's a handy little fact sheet on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict which people might find useful. I apologize if it's been posted already somewhere else

http://www.rwor.org/a/1259/palestine-occup...-resistance.htm (http://www.rwor.org/a/1259/palestine-occupation-resistance.htm)


The death of Yasser Arafat has placed a spotlight on the struggle and aspirations of the Palestinian people. Over and over, the mainstream coverage has whitewashed the theft of Palestinian land by the Israeli state and Zionist settlers. The brutal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza has been routinely prettified.

In attempting to sum up the life of Yasser Arafat, the Western commentators have only revealed their own arrogant, colonialist attitude—an outlook that has marked the entire history of the imperialist states and the Israeli power structure with regard to the Palestinian people.

We have learned nothing from them about the complex story of the man who dared to call the Palestinian people to the armed struggle for their country and found himself increasingly limited by his ideology, his pragmatic outlook and nationalist framework—and increasingly ensnared in a web of imperialist politics.

As with the life of any complex historical figure, there are many lessons in the story of Yasser Arafat—that require an interest in truth and heart for the oppressed—qualities that run counter to the interests of the vultures sitting in power from Washington to Tel Aviv to Cairo.

And, as we look back over the life and times of Yasser Arafat, it is important to review the history of the Palestinian people and the alliance between Zionism and western imperialism that stole their homeland.

What are the real roots of the conflict between the state of Israel and the Palestinian people? The truth has been lied about, twisted, and suppressed by the U.S. government and media. Often they picture the conflict as a battle between religions. Sometimes they portray any opponents of Israel as anti-Semites. The U.S. puts itself forward as a "honest broker" between the two sides who should "make peace" and "share the land." At the same time, the U.S. blames the current clashes on the Palestinians—even though almost all the casualties have been Palestinians killed and wounded by the heavily armed Israeli forces.

But a look at the history of Israel shows that this state was created through the violent dispossession, expulsion, and suppression of the indigenous people of the land—the Palestinians. The history reveals that this is a state based on the continuing oppression of the Palestinian people and occupation of their land. It is a state that is backed by major imperialist powers, especially the U.S., and that serves imperialist interests.

The following is an outline of the roots and development of the state of Israel and the struggle of the Palestinian people.
The Beginnings of Zionist Settlement

Israel is a Zionist state—a state based on the political ideology known as Zionism. Israel was founded by Zionist Jews from Europe, who began to colonize historic Palestine (what is now Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank) in the late 1880s. At that time, there were small Jewish communities that had long existed in the Middle East, but Jews had not been a large part of the population in Palestine for some 2,000 years. Most Jews who lived in the area in ancient times had migrated to other parts of the world following the fall of the last Jewish kingdom in Palestine to the Roman Empire, around 70 AD. By the time the Zionist movement arose in the late 1800s, there had been many centuries of Jewish migrations, persecutions, and intermarriage with other people. Most Jews lived in Europe, and they were a very diverse group which included many different nationalities as well as religious and political viewpoints.

The Zionists based their movement on the claim that Jews were god’s "chosen people" and that Palestine was the land god promised them. They said that Jews could never assimilate into other societies and could only deal with anti-Semitism by having their own state. Zionism did not reflect the views of many Jews who saw themselves as part of the life and struggles of the people in the countries where they lived. The Zionist movement reflected the interests of bourgeois Jews in Europe, and from the beginning it was based on allying with imperialism against the masses in the Middle East. Theodor Herzl, a founder of Zionism, wrote that a future Zionist state "would be the advance post of civilization against barbarism." (Rodinson)

The Zionists promoted the myth that Palestine, which is about the size of the state of Maryland, was a barren desert, "a land without people for a people without land." In truth, some of the first urban societies in the world originated in historic Palestine, and Palestinians had lived and farmed there for centuries. In 1947 some Palestinians could trace their land ownership back a thousand years. (Guyatt, p. 1)

From the start, the Zionist plan was expulsion and conquest. R. Weitz, the head of the colonization department of the Jewish Agency, a leading Zionist organization, wrote to other Zionists: "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country... There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries, to transfer all of them: Not one village, not one tribe, should be left." (Said & Hitchens, p. 239)

By 1918, there were 680,000 Palestinians living in Palestine, in contrast to 56,000 Jews, and Palestinians owned 97 percent of the land. ( Basic Facts , Quaker Newsletter) But the imperialists had plans for this region. After World War 1, various imperialist powers scrambled to scoop up the lands ruled by the defeated Ottoman Empire, including Palestine. The rivalry was intense because oil was now a precious economic and military commodity. Britain calculated that establishing a state of Zionist settlers—a settler-colonial state similar to South Africa—could help in digging its claws more deeply into the Middle East. The British also wanted to undercut Jewish support for the newly established Soviet Union, then a revolutionary socialist country. In 1917 British Foreign Secretary Balfour declared: "The four great powers are committed to Zionism, and Zionism...is rooted in age-long tradition, in present needs, in future hopes, of far profounder import than the desires and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land." (Sin, p. 10)

During World War 1, the British had promised independence to Palestinians and other Arabs. But Britain quickly broke those promises. In 1922, the British imperialists got the League of Nations to give them a "mandate" to rule Palestine as a colony. The British worked to "secure the establishment of the Jewish national home" by encouraging Jewish immigration, allowing the Jewish Agency to share the administration of Palestine, and by suppressing Palestinian resistance. (Said & Hitchens, p. 242, quoting British Parliamentary papers)

Between 1933 and 1945, Britain, along with its U.S. imperialist ally, severely restricted Jewish immigration into their own countries. This policy, aimed at pushing Jews to immigrate to Palestine, was carried out while the Jewish people in Europe faced the Holocaust. (During World War 2, the U.S. and Britain also refused to bomb the tracks leading to the Nazi concentration camps.) Zionist leaders also cut deals with the Nazis—such as the Havara Agreement- -allowing some wealthier Jews to escape to Palestine and undercutting Jewish resistance in Nazi-controlled areas.

There was Palestinian resistance to the Zionist settlers as early as the turn of the twentieth century. In 1936 Palestinians launched an armed uprising against the British authorities and the Zionist settlers. The British brutally crushed the uprising in 1939 and passed emergency laws condemning to death any Palestinian found with a gun. ( Roots , p. 68).

Zionist leader David Ben Gurion wrote at the time: "In our political argument abroad, we minimize Arab opposition to us...[but] let us not ignore the truth among ourselves... Politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country...." (Chomsky, pp. 90-91)
The Founding of Israel

Through World War 2, the United States had emerged as the top imperialist power in the world; and the U.S. was eager to replace Britain as the main power in the Middle East. In November 1947, the U.S. helped push through a UN resolution partitioning Palestine into a Zionist state and an Arab state. At that time, the Palestinians still outnumbered Zionist settlers two to one and owned 92 percent of the land. But the partition gave Israel 54 percent of the land.

On May 14, 1948—after the Palestinians and the Arab countries refused to accept the UN partition—the Zionists proclaimed the state of Israel and launched a war against Palestinians. At the village of Der Yassin, Israeli forces massacred 250 defenseless villagers, including 100 women and children. Israel used this atrocity to spread terror among the Palestinian people, and many fled their homes in panic. When the war ended in January 1949, nearly 800,000 Palestinians—two-thirds of the population—had been forcibly driven into exile in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Gaza, and the West Bank. Israel had seized 77 percent of the land. (Chomsky, p. 95)

Israel used the Arab intervention on the side of the Palestinians as an excuse for the war. The Zionists claimed that they were only "defending" themselves from an unprovoked attack. But David Ben Gurion, now a top Israeli leader, spelled out Israel’s real aims: "The issue at hand is conquest not self-defense. As for the setting of borders—it’s an open-ended matter.... In each attack, a decisive blow should be struck, resulting in the destruction of homes and the expulsion of the population." (Sin, p. 16)
Wars of Aggression and Brutal Occupation

After the 1948 war Israel began systematically destroying Palestinian society —its towns and villages, its historical and cultural sites, its social infrastructure. By 1988, Israel had destroyed 385 of the 475 Palestinian villages inside the 1948 borders. ( Middle East Reports 5/6/88). Israeli leader Moshe Dayan admitted, "There is not a single Jewish village in the land which was not built on the site of an Arab dwelling place." (Sin, p. 15)

In 1967 the Israelis launched the so-called "Six Day War," aimed at grabbing more land and establishing Israel as a regional power. Israel seized the remaining 23 percent of historic Palestine—the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem—along with Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula and Syria’s Golan Heights.

Israel again claimed it was just defending itself against Arab aggression. But Israeli leader Menachem Begin revealed, "In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that [Egyptian leader] Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him." (Chomsky, p. 100)

The 1960s saw a powerful revolutionary upsurge among Palestinians. Many were influenced by the war of liberation waged by the Vietnamese against the U.S. and Mao Tsetung’s teachings on people’s war. Palestinian guerrilla organizations launched an armed struggle against Israel in 1965, with the aim of creating a democratic, secular (non-religious) state throughout Palestine. In March 1968 Palestinian fighters held off a major Israeli attack at Karameh, Jordan—an inspiring battle that showed the potential for a people’s war against Israel. ( Roots , p. 9) Yasser Arafat and his armed Al Fatah organization emerged as a respected leadership within this early armed struggle.

After the 1967 war, the UN passed Resolution 242, calling on Israel to withdraw from all areas seized during the war, in return for Arab recognition of Israel. Instead of withdrawing from those newly seized territories, the Israelis, with U.S. backing, began to build heavily armed Zionist settlements on those areas and to incorporate them into Israel.

Since 1967, Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza have lived under harsh military occupation, with basic freedoms suspended and their economy under siege. By 1988 Israel had confiscated over 52 percent of the West Bank and 30 percent of Gaza for its military and settlers, while destroying thousands of Palestinian homes. Israeli troops have used extreme brutality and armed reprisals against Palestinian protesters—as in the "intifada" (uprising) of the late 1980s and the current clashes in the West Bank and Gaza.

Israel has served as U.S. imperialism’s attack dog against threats to U.S. interests. In the Middle East, those interests center on controlling this strategic crossroads between Europe, Asia, and Africa and its vast oil reserves. This is why the U.S. has given Israel $2 to $3 billion a year in aid for decades. The aid allows the Israeli military to acquire the weapons used to wage wars of aggression and to suppress the Palestinian resistance. Without U.S. backing, the state of Israel could not survive.

Since its founding in 1948, Israel has carried out many vicious assaults on the masses in the region and around the world. In 1956 Israel aided the U.S. in the war for control of the Suez Canal. In 1976 Israel invaded Lebanon to prevent the government from being controlled by forces that the U.S. and Israel opposed. Israel invaded Lebanon again in 1982 and killed over 20,000 Lebanese and Palestinians. Israel seized the southern part of Lebanon through that invasion and held the territory until the year 2000. In 1982, Israeli warplanes bombed a nuclear reactor in Iraq; and in 1991 Israel supported the U.S. in the Persian Gulf War against Iraq. Israeli agents have trained torturers from Guatemala to South Africa and sold weapons to reactionary pro-U.S. governments all over the world. ("Fort Apache," Chomsky)
The Oslo "Peace Process" and the Palestinian Authority

U.S. and Israeli attacks on the Palestinians and other peoples of the Middle East gave rise to deep popular anger and sharp contradictions. In order to keep these explosive conflicts in check, stabilize its grip on the region, and strengthen Israel, the U.S. has, over the years, attempted to broker and enforce various "peace" agreements.

In 1978, the U.S. oversaw the "Camp David Accords" between Israel and Sadat of Egypt, which became the first Arab country to officially recognize the Zionist state.

A key part of U.S. strategy has been the "two-state" solution: the Palestinians would recognize Israel and cease their struggle in return for a "mini-state" of their own centered in the West Bank and Gaza. By the late 1980s Yasser Arafat, the leader of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), had basically agreed to recognition of Israel and the acceptance of a "mini-state."

The U.S. and Israel never had any intention of allowing a truly independent Palestinian state. Under the "peace" deal hammered out in Oslo in 1993 (and later in the 1998 Wye agreement), Israel gradually transferred about 40 percent of the occupied West Bank to the control of the Palestinian Authority. Yasser Arafat and the leadership of the Palestine Liberation Organization returned to Gaza from exile in Tunisia in 1994.

But this Palestinian Authority territory was only a small part of their historic homeland. Palestinians were offered 10 percent of their territory, in small disconnected pieces, slowly over the 1990s. Meanwhile the Israeli state controlled the other 90 percent. (Guyatt, p. xii) All key strategic points, the high ground of Golan, the main highways of the West Bank, the main access to water, neighboring countries and the sea—all remained in Israeli military control.

Meanwhile Israeli "settlements"—armed camps of rightwing religious fanatics and expansionists— multiplied all over Palestinian areas throughout this period, soon numbering hundreds, taking over the high ground, the water, the best roads, and bringing in Israeli troops to "protect" their land grab and aggressions.

And, most important, this Palestinian Authority was ordered to cease and even suppress any further struggle against Israel, its theft of Palestine and its armed domination over Palestinian people. The PA was denied any right to form a national army and functioned under intense constant attack by Israeli military forces. At every turn, the PA and Palestinians have been threatened—that if they did not do as ordered—they would be attacked, assassinated, penned up, dispossessed of their lands and orchards, and considered an unacceptable "partner for peace."

This Oslo agreement also made no provisions for the return of (or compensation for) the four million Palestinian refugees living outside of what is now Israel, West Bank, and Gaza. These refugees are "now the largest and longest existing such population anywhere."

And in the end, the negotiating process broke down during the July 2000 Camp David Summit—between President Bill Clinton, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and the PA’s Yasser Arafat—when it became clear that the U.S. and Israeli sides insisted on permanently denying Jerusalem to the Palestinians, and were intent on denying the "right of return" of Palestinians to Palestine.
The Second Intifada: Provocation, Threat and Resistance

In September 2000, Ariel Sharon, the notorious Butcher General of the Israeli rightwing, led a thousand soldiers and police into the Al-Aqsa Mosque, a key symbol of the Muslim religion in Jerusalem. This ugly armed provocation was designed to humiliate Palestinian people and assert Israel’s unchallengeable supremacy. His move was an arrogant declaration that the Zionists were determined to never share or divide Jerusalem with the Palestinian people—even though this historic city is seen as the capital of Palestine by both the Palestinian people and the Arab world generally.

There were two responses to this: The Palestinian people, and especially the youth, launched a Second Intifada—a great new wave of resistance and struggle against Israeli domination and occupation. And second, in February 2001, Sharon was installed in power as Israel’s prime minister.

The struggle and the oppression of Palestinian people have since greatly intensified: Under Sharon, Israel has intensified its direct military attacks on the Palestinian people. The Israeli government and armed forces have sought to shatter the whole political and civilian infrastructure of Palestinian society. Israeli helicopters and death squads hunted down and killed leading figures of Palestinian movements.

In March 2001, the Israel military dug deep trenches around Ramallah, almost completely sealing off the capital city of the Palestinian Authority. An AFP news report wrote about the military isolation of another city: "Jericho, fabled for the biblical account of the siege in which its walls came tumbling down, has been encircled for two months by a two-meter (six-foot) ditch that has effectively stopped the flow of products and raw materials in and out, beleaguering the local economy." The trenches are part of the policy of "closure" that Israel has used to carry out a vicious lockdown on the Palestinians in an attempt to break down the resistance. As they gun down and bomb Palestinian protesters in the streets, the Israeli occupiers are also strangling Palestinian communities through military blockades, checkpoints, curfews, and trenches.

Military checkpoints manned by Israeli soldiers prevent Palestinians from even traveling freely between different towns within the occupied West Bank and Gaza. There are documented cases of Palestinians dying of heart attacks and other medical emergencies when they were stopped on their way to hospitals by Israeli troops.

Over 130,000 Palestinian workers who used to commute to jobs inside Israel are being shut out and no longer have a means of livelihood. Overall the unemployment rate has jumped to almost 50 percent. The UN World Food Program recently announced that Palestinians have become among the poorest people in the world; poverty levels have doubled since September.
Waves of Military Assault on West Bank and Gaza

In February 2002, the Israeli Army launched massive armored invasions of the Palestinian towns of the Gaza Strip—openly threatening heavily populated areas with heavy artillery and tank cannons. Armored Israeli bulldozers have razed hundreds of homes since September 2000, leaving thousands of Palestinians homeless, and have destroyed hundreds of acres of olive and fruit trees vital to people’s livelihood.

During these operations, Israel also carried out several air strikes, using U.S.-supplied F-16 warplanes and Apache combat helicopters. The bombings and rocket attacks from the air caused widespread destruction to residential areas and government offices—including the offices of the United Nations special coordinator for the Middle East. UN officials expressed outrage at Israel’s use of heavy bombs near civilian areas.

In March 2002, Ariel Sharon and the Israeli government carried out the largest military offensive against Palestinians since the 1967 war. Massive columns of tanks and infantry poured into Palestinian areas — carrying out collective punishment against a whole people and committing shocking atrocities.

In complete defiance of the Palestinian Authority, 150 Israeli tanks invaded the West Bank town of Ramallah on March 29, crushing cars and anything else in their way. Israeli troops looted and rampaged through homes, shops, and Palestinian Authority administration offices. They took countless men and some women away, blindfolded, for brutal interrogations—sending thousands to an isolated military prison in the Negev Desert.

At the Education Ministry, the soldiers deliberately destroyed important records of Palestinian society—like school graduation records and other official documents and records. They destroyed the mail in post offices.

These attacks specifically and especially targeted the headquarters of the Palestinian Authority. The Israeli troops forced their way into the PA’s main government compound, smashing gaping holes in the walls as they fired tank shells and machine guns. Soon the Israeli military had control of the compound, and PA head Yasser Arafat was holed up in a second-floor office. The electricity was cut off, and a cell phone became his only means of communication to the outside world.

Until he left this month for medical treatment in Paris, Arafat had been held a prisoner in his Ramallah office for years, constantly under threat from nearby Israeli tanks and troops, while the Israeli government openly debated whether to have him assassinated or exiled.

Meanwhile at the Jenin refugee camp, home to 15,000 people, the Israeli occupiers met fierce resistance—a dozen Israeli soldiers were killed in one ambush. The Israeli troops attacked in a savage act of revenge, reducing the whole center of the camp to rubble and dust with missiles, tanks and armored bulldozers.
Israel’s Apartheid Wall

In June 2002, the Israeli government began erecting a sinister fortified barrier wall—separating Israel from Palestinian areas of the West Bank, and stealing new lands from the Palestinians in the process.

The Israeli government calls it a "security fence"—the Palestinian people call it the Apartheid Wall— because it divides Palestine into unequal societies under the control of a racist and messianic settler state.

This wall is steadily snaking its ugly way across the landscape of Palestine—made of concrete walls, electrified fences, electric sensors, razor wire, trenches, and watchtowers. Israeli guard troops have orders to shoot any Palestinian who approaches the wall’s Buffer Zones without authorization.

When completed, this wall will cut across more than 400 miles through Palestinian land—and it is carefully de- signed to even further isolate many Palestinian towns, to separate farmers from their fields, to annex more Palestinian territory on the West Bank, and drive more Palestinian people from their homes by imposing a prison-like feel over every aspect of life.

The entire Gaza Strip is already enclosed by an Israeli military wall, making that area into a giant concentration camp for more than a million Palestinians.
Sources:

V. K. Sin, "Israel: Imperialism’s Attack Dog in the Middle East," A World To Win , 1988/11

"Palestine: A History of Occupation and Resistance," Revolutionary Worker, November 10, 1991

"Fort Apache: The Middle East" a four-part series, Revolutionary Worker, January 6-27, 1984, citing Israel Shahak, Israel’s Global Role (Belmont, MA: Arab American University Graduates, 1992); Fateful Triangle ; and Maxime Rodinson, Israel: A Colonial-Settler State? (New York: Monad Press 1973)

Noam Chomsky, The Fateful Triangle (Boston: South End Press, 1983)

Joy Bonds, Jimmy Emerman, Linda John, Penny Johnson, Paul Rupert, Our Roots Are Still Alive—The Story of the Palestinian People (New York: Institute for Independent Social Journalism, 1981)

Nicholas Guyatt, The Absence of Peace—Understanding the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (New York: Zed Books, 1998)

"Palestine for Beginners," Middle East Report , September-October 1988

"Israel and the Palestinians," Middle East Report , May-June 1988

"Who Are the Palestinians," Quaker Middle East Representatives, Newsletter #7

Edward W. Said, Ibrahim Abu-Lughod, Janet L. Abu-Lughod, Muhammad Jallaj, Elia Zureik, "A Profile of the Palestinian People," in Edward Said & Christopher Hitchens, eds., Blaming the Victims—Spurious Scholarship and the Palestinian Question (New York: Verso, 1988)

"Twenty Basic Facts About the Palestine Problem," The Islamic Association for Palestine, 2000

Edward Said, "The End of Oslo," Nation , October 30, 2000



IMO? The current PA leadership, the late Arafat included, are selling out the Palestinian people for mere crumbs of their historic land and are basically letting the Israelis walk all over them. In the end, I don't think a two state solution will solve anything; one state for Israel and one state for Palestine just isn't going to work, because the Palestinian state (what we think of as the West Bank) has been carved up like a Thanksgiving turkey for Zionist settlers and Israeli interests, and would inevitably be dominated and controlled by Israel.

Even if 100 percent of the West Bank and Gaza were to become an independant sovreign nation, which the Israelis will never allow, that still amounts to the Palestinians gaining back only %22 of their historic land!

There are two slogans I've heard that basically epitomize my views on what should happen; "Let the intifada pave the way for People's War!" and "One secular, democratic Palestine, with equal rights for all." In other words, and continuing and deepening resistance that specifically targets the repressive machinery of the Israeli state with the aim of destroying it and seizing state power, with a single democratic state (not Jewish, not Muslim or Arab, but secular and multinational) replacing it. Palestinians get to boot the settlers off their land and recieve full right of return, of course.

MeTaLhEaD
26th February 2005, 18:26
PALESTINE!



if someone here supports israel posers....

MeTaLhEaD
26th February 2005, 18:29
stupid zionists

Fuck Israel


viva Palestina

Irish_Bebop
26th February 2005, 19:45
I dont think that anyone who claims to have a social conscience can honestly support Israel.

http://waroffice.us/images/zapiro/israel.gif

Paradox
27th February 2005, 02:13
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/new_web/home.htm

Mitch Flo
27th February 2005, 02:27
Palestine

Phalanx
27th February 2005, 03:11
Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 12:09 AM
The Zionists openly advocated (and put into practice) the forced expulsion of Palestinian civilians, from their homeland.
Maybe the Irgun or Stern Gang did, but the Haganah tried to prevent their Arab neighbors from leaving their homes. The Jewish negotiators attempted to talk sense into the Arab leadership, but instead they had infuriated them more.

TheKwas
27th February 2005, 06:27
Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 04:31 PM

Even if 100 percent of the West Bank and Gaza were to become an independant sovreign nation, which the Israelis will never allow, that still amounts to the Palestinians gaining back only %22 of their historic land!
Using that logic, the native Americans should rise up and kick out all white people out of America and Canada. Or that perhaps that China DOES have authority over Tibet, because they once did in history. Maybe those with Dravidic blood in them in India should kick out all those of Aryan blood and send them back to the Middle East, kicking out the Arabs and sending them back to Arabia.

Self determination is a right, for both the Palastinians AND the Israelities.

RedFlagOverTrenton
27th February 2005, 08:12
The Native American argument doesn't really hold water; their population levels have been so drastically reduced by war and genocide that taking back the entirety of the North American continent would be physically impossible.

Palestinians, on the other hand, are just BARELY outnumbered by Israelis, by something like a couple hundred thou.

This isn't something that happened hundreds of years ago.. this was an unjust seizure of land and rights that has happened within living memory. And besides, how does my solution negate political rights for Israelis? I'm arguing for an end to the Jewish state and the creation of a multiracial, multireligious one, not driving all the Jews into the sea.

bur372
27th February 2005, 10:23
Being brought up as jewish I have constanly been told that israel is always right. I can once remeber a jew of mine who said something along the lines off "3,000 israelis have been killed by Palestinians but 10,000 Palestinians have been killed by israelis" and he said that with a smile almost.

Of course Even thought israel was designed to be a jewish state very few of the people living in israel are actully religous jews.

Most Zionists in the late 19th and early 20 th century would now be classed as anti-zionists today. basically because they were left and would disagreed with the invasion of palestine and wanted israel to be lots of kibbutz's.

My own views I would like to see israelis and palestinians co-living together but I doubt that's likely so I would like to see isreal go back to pre-1967 but it probably should keep jerusalem.

One final thought in the area where israel was first established most of the population were jews. So the majority of the people wanted it to be israel.

bolshevik butcher
27th February 2005, 13:16
Originally posted by TheKwas+Feb 27 2005, 06:27 AM--> (TheKwas @ Feb 27 2005, 06:27 AM)
[email protected] 26 2005, 04:31 PM

Even if 100 percent of the West Bank and Gaza were to become an independant sovreign nation, which the Israelis will never allow, that still amounts to the Palestinians gaining back only %22 of their historic land!
Using that logic, the native Americans should rise up and kick out all white people out of America and Canada. Or that perhaps that China DOES have authority over Tibet, because they once did in history. Maybe those with Dravidic blood in them in India should kick out all those of Aryan blood and send them back to the Middle East, kicking out the Arabs and sending them back to Arabia.

Self determination is a right, for both the Palastinians AND the Israelities. [/b]
I think that there should be too indpendant states, palistine being made up of the west bank, the gaza strip and east jerusalem, surley both sides would settle for that?

Iepilei
27th February 2005, 13:29
Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 27 2005, 01:16 PM
I think that there should be too indpendant states, palistine being made up of the west bank, the gaza strip and east jerusalem, surley both sides would settle for that?
Doubtful; the Israelis are damn intent on removing any Palestinian controlled government from the entire region.

:ph34r:

fernando
27th February 2005, 13:51
I thought that Sharon made Israelis leave the Gaze Strip and that peace talks were sort of happening with the new Palestinian government...

TheKwas
27th February 2005, 17:52
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 08:12 AM
And besides, how does my solution negate political rights for Israelis? I'm arguing for an end to the Jewish state and the creation of a multiracial, multireligious one, not driving all the Jews into the sea.
But the problem is that BOTH sides don't want that. They either want a two-state system or their completely controlling the other.


This isn't something that happened hundreds of years ago.. this was an unjust seizure of land and rights that has happened within living memory.

As somebody else already said, before the creation of Israel the majority of people living on the west coast were Jews. They had the right of self-determination.

TheKwas
27th February 2005, 17:54
Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 27 2005, 01:16 PM

I think that there should be too indpendant states, palistine being made up of the west bank, the gaza strip and east jerusalem, surley both sides would settle for that?
I forgot to adress this.

One of the problems that Israel has with this is that the GS and the WB are on different sides of Israel, and thus Israel would have to give up a strip of land to connect the two.

Phalanx
27th February 2005, 19:27
Originally posted by Iepilei+Feb 27 2005, 01:29 PM--> (Iepilei @ Feb 27 2005, 01:29 PM)
Clenched [email protected] 27 2005, 01:16 PM
I think that there should be too indpendant states, palistine being made up of the west bank, the gaza strip and east jerusalem, surley both sides would settle for that?
Doubtful; the Israelis are damn intent on removing any Palestinian controlled government from the entire region.

:ph34r: [/b]
The Blame cannot rest entirely on Israel. The vast majority of people on both sides are moderates, but the extremists get the most disproportionate voice in the conflict. Most people are sick of this conflict, and they really don't care much about how the territory is carved. The only ones that put land before their fellow human beings are the extremists.

P.S.

I support neither side in this conflict, i just like to give an opposing viewpoint to this thread, otherwise it would be quite boring.

Intifada
28th February 2005, 01:42
Maybe the Irgun or Stern Gang did, but the Haganah tried to prevent their Arab neighbors from leaving their homes. The Jewish negotiators attempted to talk sense into the Arab leadership, but instead they had infuriated them more.

First of all, Irgun was basically a group of far right-wing elements that actually branched off of the Haganah.

Second of all, "Plan Dalet" ("Plan D"), was put into action by the Haganah, the original "IDF."

"Plan D" was simply a means of cleansing of all Palestinians from their homeland, a crucial aspect of the Zionist project.

Remember, Herzl wrote himself, in 1885:

We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country... both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out secretly and circumspectly.

In 1938 Ben-Gurion defended this concept of "population transfer" by saying:

I favour partition of the country because when we become a strong power after the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and spread throughout all of Palestine.

These sentiments are shared by all Zionist leaders.

According to Benny Morris, a leading Israeli historian of Israel's "War of Independence", recently declassified documents, from "IDF" archives, reveal that in 1947, Ben-Gurion and other prominent Zionists concluded that an exclusively Jewish state could not come into being, in the territory assigned to Jews by the UN, without the "transfer" of around 700000 Palestinians.

Furthermore, Morris states that this destruction of Palestinian society, to make way for the state of Israel, was indeed a deliberate and planned operation aimed at "cleansing" (the term used in the declassified documents) those areas of Palestine.

"Sefer Toldot Ha-Haganah", the official history of the Haganah, states clearly how the Palestinian villages and population were to be dealt with:

[Palestinian Arab] villages inside the Jewish state that resist should be destroyed .... and their inhabitants expelled beyond the borders of the Jewish state.

Meanwhile, Palestinian residents of the urban quarters which dominate access to or egress from towns should be expelled beyond the borders of the Jewish state in the event of their resistance.


The Blame cannot rest entirely on Israel.

Why not?

Unless I am mistaken, this conflict is about one thing: The illegal occupation of Palestinian territories by Israel.

That the extreme elements of Palestinian resistance are prolonging the bloody conflict is undeniable, but the fact is that Israeli occupation of Palestine is the root of this conflict.

Israel could easily end all the bloodshed, by ending the occupation.

codyvo
28th February 2005, 03:05
Hey I started the thread and I'm willing to admit that Israel can't be blamed for everything, yes they are the instigators but the palestinians aren't using the best method to end it.
I still support palestine.

Ele'ill
28th February 2005, 04:27
I fully agree with you there. Killing civilians can not be justified. Armed settlers yes, soldiers yes.

antiimperialist
28th February 2005, 07:24
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 09:39 PM
Who do you support the Israeli's or the Palestinians?


I think that Palestine should be its own country for a number of reasons.
Palestine all the way.

1. The Palestinians have the right to self-determination which Israel is denying them.

2. The Israelis stole their land in 1948 and refuse to allow the Palestinians the right of return, in violation of the UN declaration of human rights.

3. The US has been supporting the Israeli killing of innocent Palestinians and has been blocking peace since the 1967 war.

Many other reasons, some personal, some not, but as it is the time for sleep has come.

antiimperialist
28th February 2005, 07:27
Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 06:29 PM
stupid zionists

Fuck Israel


viva Palestina
Amen!

Intifada
28th February 2005, 15:59
Hey I started the thread and I'm willing to admit that Israel can't be blamed for everything, yes they are the instigators but the palestinians aren't using the best method to end it.


I acknowledged, in my previous post, that certain elements of the Palestinian resistance are not helping to end this conflict. They are prolonging it.

But, what do you expect them to do?

The oppressed should and always will resist oppression.

As long as there is occupation, and the separate injustices which come with it, there will be Palestinian resistance. Unfortunately, this occupation will breed extremists too.

The fact remains, however, that Israeli occupation is the cause of this conflict.

Israel, therefore, could end all the fighting, by simply pulling out, completely, from the mere 22% of Palestinian land, which the Palestinians are asking for.

Irish_Bebop
28th February 2005, 18:11
When you take away everything from a man, as has happened with the Palestinians, all that is left is a breading ground for hate.

There are two things that a majority of people will hold on to when at the bottom, religion (for some reason, although any passive observers would imagine that god hasn't exactly been on their side), and hate. Put the two together and you have fundimentalism.

Severian
28th February 2005, 22:30
Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 27 2005, 07:16 AM
I think that there should be too indpendant states, palistine being made up of the west bank, the gaza strip and east jerusalem, surley both sides would settle for that?
No. The PA has long been willing to settle for that, provided there's some settlement on the refugees' right of return - not because it's right, but because they have a very large gun to their heads.

The Israeli state, both Likud and Labor, is unwilling to agree to that. And they categorically refuse even a token return of refugees who were expelled in 1948. The right of people to return to their land of birth is a basic human right, recognized by everyone in the world except the Israeli apartheid state.

Someone else wrote;

One final thought in the area where israel was first established most of the population were jews. So the majority of the people wanted it to be israel.

That's false. It might be true of the area proposed by the UN plan; but that was just gerrymandering. Jews were a minority in 1948 Palestine - roughly a third of the population - were granted a majority of the land - and the best land - under the UN plan; and grabbed more than that, 78%. In order to ensure the new state had a Jewish majority, it was necessary to expel the Palestinian population. Otherwise they woulda voted to reunify Palestine. (Alternately, they coulda excluded the Palestinians from voting and other democratic rights...as has been done, in fact, with the population of the occupied territories. They are ruled by Israel, but have no voice in the government that rules them.)

An Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories would be welcome. But only a united, democratic, and secular state, with equal rights for both peoples and all religions, can be a just and lasting solution.

To advocate only a withdrawal from the occupied territories, and agree to the continued exclusion of the refugees and the second-class status of Palestinians within Israel proper - is as if someone advocated that apartheid South Africa get out of Namibia, but agreed with the continuation of apartheid within South Africa itself.

To demand self-determination for Israelis is like demanding self-determination for Irish Protestants and Loyalists...or like the demand for a "white homeland" that some in South Africa made as apartheid was on the way out. A demand which could only have been met by expelling Africans from whatever territory was chosen for the white homeland.

Phalanx
1st March 2005, 01:20
Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 03:59 PM
The fact remains, however, that Israeli occupation is the cause of this conflict.

Israel, therefore, could end all the fighting, by simply pulling out, completely, from the mere 22% of Palestinian land, which the Palestinians are asking for.
Yes, the Israelis are responsible for this recent conflict, but in the greater picture, both sides are to blame. True, on paper, 22% of the land doesn't seem like much, but most of Israel's territory lays in the Negev desert, while the Judea and Samaria have extremely fertile ground.

TheKwas
1st March 2005, 02:43
Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 10:30 PM

To demand self-determination for Israelis is like demanding self-determination for Irish Protestants and Loyalists...or like the demand for a "white homeland" that some in South Africa made as apartheid was on the way out. A demand which could only have been met by expelling Africans from whatever territory was chosen for the white homeland.
Self-determination doesn't include kicking people off their homeland as well. That's a violation of self-determination.

Severian
5th March 2005, 00:53
Yes, that's part of the problem with demanding self-determination for oppressing nations.

Communists have traditionally favored self-determination for oppressed nations as a way of uniting working people of different nations. It's important for showing workers of the oppressed nations that workers of the imperialist nation reject that imperialism.

Self-determination is not an end in itself. Nothing is.

codyvo
24th March 2005, 01:29
Unfortunately their is virtually no communist movement in Palestine, so communistic virtues don't apply to them.

Rebel For Life
25th March 2005, 02:46
if all that i have read is true, then i will aslo go with palestine but thats baced on what i have read and from what i see on the news witch is NOT! FOX NEWS