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Anarchist Freedom
25th February 2005, 01:33
Ive been readin on them It seems they did alot of killing which isnt good. What are your thoughts on this group in peru?

Phalanx
25th February 2005, 06:10
I know they killed priests, mayors, and other people of high ranking. I don't give them much respect.

redstar2000
25th February 2005, 06:48
Originally posted by Chinghis Khan
I know they killed priests, mayors, and other people of high ranking.

Revolutionaries are sort of known for that kind of behavior. :D

Frankly, I know very little about them...but if they can make a come-back and overthrow the U.S. puppet regime in Peru, then good for them!

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Anarchist Freedom
25th February 2005, 12:48
A majority of there killings are of plain and simple civilians

Non-Sectarian Bastard!
25th February 2005, 13:26
Originally posted by Chinghis [email protected] 25 2005, 07:10 AM
I know they killed priests, mayors, and other people of high ranking. I don't give them much respect.
Why is that a bad thing? Your beloved FARC does the same thing.

h&s
25th February 2005, 14:13
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 06:48 AM
Frankly, I know very little about them...but if they can make a come-back and overthrow the U.S. puppet regime in Peru, then good for them!

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif
Come on, I thought that you wouldn't bother 'breaking a fingernail' to contribute to that sort of uber-vanguardist bunch of murderers revolution? ;)
The shining path seem to be nothing more than a bunch of cold-blooded killers who randomly kill proportions of rural populations to scare the people into submission. If they get into power they'll be no different.

redstar2000
25th February 2005, 15:29
Originally posted by h&s
Come on, I thought that you wouldn't bother 'breaking a fingernail' to contribute to that sort of uber-vanguardist bunch of murderers revolution?

The Shining Path seem to be nothing more than a bunch of cold-blooded killers who randomly kill proportions of rural populations to scare the people into submission. If they get into power they'll be no different.

You misunderstand...deliberately?

The charge of "cold-blooded murder" is routinely made against all who seek to overthrow the prevailing social order everywhere through the use of guerrilla warfare. You can find a whole bunch of sites that will tell you that Che was "nothing but a cold-blooded killer".

The irony of this is that almost all revolutionary guerrilla groups started out using peaceful, legal methods...and were driven to take up arms by the state terrorism of the existing regimes (puppets of U.S. imperialism).

Shining Path is a Maoist group...presumably, if they succeed, they will establish a socialist despotism along the lines of Mao's China, economically develop Peru independently of U.S. imperialism and its lackeys, establish social welfare measures similar to those that China used to have, etc. Eventually, they'll develop into a strong native bourgeoisie and Peru will take its place in the world as a modern capitalist country.

The important part of all that to me is that a victory by Shining Path will be another defeat for U.S. imperialism...advancing the date for a real communist revolution in the United States.

You understand what I'm getting at here? From a communist standpoint, Maoism is crap -- though it will probably serve to develop Peru better than the American quislings that run it now. But Maoism in the "third world" weakens U.S. imperialism...and that's what really counts!

As long as U.S. imperialism is successful, most American workers will emotionally identify with it and support it...and we will have continuing difficulties accomplishing anything. But continuing defeats for imperialism will break that emotional identification...and the American working class will start listening to us instead of to their masters.

Therefore, it is in our class interests for Shining Path or some other revolutionary guerrilla group to win in Peru.

And therefore I am more than happy to cheer them on...without any illusions about what they will do after they come to power.

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Anarchist Freedom
25th February 2005, 15:41
But does a revolution call for the murder of innocent civilians?


12,561 Innocent civilians have died at the hands of the Shining path.Where trying to get popular support not commit mass murder!

Anarchist Freedom
25th February 2005, 15:44
Shining Path "has bombed police headquarters and municipal offices, gas stations and middle-class apartment buildings, think tanks and public schools. It has paralyzed the country with so-called armed strikes, and set fire to bus drivers who defied its orders to stay at home on strike days. It has murdered peasant families and leftist leaders. Most often, victims are killed in full view of their family or community. Sometimes they are hanged and sometimes shot, but often an execution-squad member— in many cases a woman — delivers the coup de grace with a knife. Sometimes the tail of a live cat will be set on fire and then the animal will be let loose on a field of corn ready for picking. Sometimes a man who has just finished casting a mandatory vote in a national election will have the finger with the telltale electoral ink hacked off." Source: Alma Guillermoprieto, "Letter from Lima: Down the Shining Path,"


Do These actions help our cause?

Andrei Kuznetsov
25th February 2005, 17:19
The People's War in Peru- with all its setbacks and difficulties- has been a powerful inspiration to Communists worldwide in their struggle for a better world. I like what the Committee to Support the Revolution in Peru (http://www.csrpus.org/) has to say on their webpage concerning the revolution. It's a little outdated, but it still acts as a great introduction:

http://213.130.162.31/intro.gif

http://213.130.162.31/fighters.jpg
PCP Fighters Train in a Revolutionary Base Area

"It's Right to Rebel!" echoes throughout Peru--from remote mountain and jungle villages, from occupied universities, and from the immense shantytowns that surround Lima. The downtrodden of Peru have risen up in a revolutionary storm. It is the first taste of real justice and power for indigenous people who have been held down for centuries. The government of Peru has countered this threat with vicious slaughter and repression, and the U.S. government has aided and directed these efforts, building a Vietnam-style firebase under the phony "war on drugs," sending Green Berets on "training missions," and supplying CIA advisors and equipment to Peru's secret police. In 1992, these counter-insurgency police managed to capture Dr. Abimael Guzmán, leader of the revolution and Chairman of the Communist Party of Peru, but the struggle continues defiantly in the face of this and many difficulties. It is right for all who stand with the oppressed to find out the truth about what is happening in Peru; to step forward and join with the Committee to Support the Revolution in Peru (CSRP), to struggle in opposition to Yankee intervention and in solidarity with the People's War in Peru.

THE REVOLUTION IS PROFOUNDLY LIBERATING!

http://213.130.162.31/women.jpg
Revolutionary Prisoners Celebrate International Women's Day

The People's War is led by the Partido Comunista del Peru-PCP (often called Shining Path or Sendero Luminoso in the press), and has based itself on the revolutionary principals developed by Marx, Lenin, and Mao. The armed struggle began in 1980, among the indigenous peasants of the highlands, and has spread throughout Peru to every corner of the nation. The PCP is following the Maoist strategy of protracted People's War, which allows it to start small, develop base areas in the countryside, and eventually surround the cities in order to seize nationwide power. And it is based on self reliance--not reliance on one imperialist power or another. In the base areas of the revolution a new political power is flowering. Those who have never had any real power--the workers and peasants, along with progressive forces among the middle classes--are driving out the oppressive bastions of the old order that have enforced poverty and misery on the majority of Peru's people. The common people are establishing their own People's Committees, creating a new politics, economics and culture. Land is distributed first to those who have none. The people, working collectively, plant crops which meet their needs instead of feeding the export-oriented Peruvian economy. Centuries of tradition are broken with. Indigenous women, the most downtrodden of all in Peruvian society, are liberated to step forward as revolutionary fighters, commanders in the army and leaders of the Party. The new society being forged in these remote mountain villages brings forth a vision of advancing the whole world revolution toward the ultimate abolition of all forms of domination--class, gender, race and national.

STOP U.S. INTERVENTION!

http://213.130.162.31/army2.jpg
U.S. military "Vietnam-style" firebase in the Upper Huallaga Valley, Peru.

The revolutionary uprising of the Peruvian people poses a major threat to U.S. plans for a New World Order. Peru, like other countries of the "Third World," has long been kept in a state of enforced backwardness while its economy has been bled to fill the needs of the wealthy imperialist countries. Peru reels under the weight of a crushing foreign debt, and President Fujimori's recent attempts to bail out the economy, by auctioning off national resources and other important assets, has only raised unemployment and exploitation. Only 20% of the population is fully employed. Millions of displaced peasants crowd Lima's shantytowns, which often have no running water or services of any kind. The revolution will change all this by overthrowing the government that keeps these oppressive relations in place and by building a new revolutionary society based on self-sufficiency to serve the people, not profit. A victorious Maoist revolution in Peru would send shock waves throughout Latin America and beyond. This is a challenge that the U.S. rulers cannot tolerate. A U.S.-led slander campaign of lies in the media, labelling the revolutionaries in Peru as "terrorists" and as being in league with drug traffickers, is a critical part of efforts to "demonize" the revolution and create a pretext for ongoing U.S. intervention. Peru has been the largest recipient of U.S. aid in Latin America since 1994.

THE MOST CRITICAL MOMENT

http://213.130.162.31/ag1.jpg
Dr. Abimael Guzmán - a.k.a. Chairman Gonzalo

The People's War has developed for 16 years. Yet the struggle now faces a new challenge--the most critical moment in its history--where everything the Peruvian people have fought for and sacrificed for is at stake. Within the context of Dr. Guzmán's capture and other difficulties, a political line has emerged from within the ranks of the PCP calling on people to end or postpone the People's War, and to fight instead for "peace negotiations" with the Peruvian regime. The PCP Central Committee has rejected this call, vowing to fight against it, and has continued to lead the armed struggle. The Maoist parties and organizations of the Revolutionary Internationalist Movement (RIM) have called on people the world over to criticize and repudiate the peace negotiations position, and to take up the battle to defend the People's War in Peru and to support the PCP as they struggle to march foward toward nationwide victory in the face of these difficulties. In a time when the imperialists have boasted that communist revolution is dead and buried--and the so-called leaders of many struggles have cut deals that sell out the people's interests--the revolution in Peru stands apart as a beacon for millions of people around the world. If you hate oppression and U.S. intervention; if you refuse to swallow the hype that the "New World Order" is all-powerful and unstoppable; if you want to stand with a struggle that goes straight up against the brutal ugliness of U.S. power and aims ultimately to build a whole new world, then we urge you to contact the CSRP.

------

Another good, very detailed document that answers claims that the PCP are "terrorists" and "drug smugglers" is here: http://213.130.162.31/profound.htm

Anarchist Freedom
25th February 2005, 20:14
The way they go at acheiving this revolution is wrong though.

Thomas
25th February 2005, 21:04
they're Maoists, therefore their beliefs are flawed from a Communist point of view, there would still be class separation and there would still be oppression and exploitation. It could also become a dictatorship. However when opposed to the US controlling it (and making millions from it's Cocaine fields) it would be better on a worldwide and left-wing scale is the Shining Path controlled Peru.

I can't see it happening though, especially after the failed hostage taking event.

(I'll try to find details on google)

Ele'ill
25th February 2005, 21:22
I like what the Committee to Support the Revolution in Peru has to say on their webpage concerning the revolution. It's a little outdated, but it still acts as a great introduction:


I'm sure bush could give you a great introduction to imperialism also. As any capitalist could give reasons why capitalism works


:rolleyes:

colombiano
26th February 2005, 00:52
Originally posted by Chinghis [email protected] 25 2005, 06:10 AM
I know they killed priests, mayors, and other people of high ranking. I don't give them much respect.
So have the FARC whom you have a picture of under your name.

colombiano
26th February 2005, 00:56
Originally posted by Non-Sectarian Bastard!+Feb 25 2005, 01:26 PM--> (Non-Sectarian Bastard! @ Feb 25 2005, 01:26 PM)
Chinghis [email protected] 25 2005, 07:10 AM
I know they killed priests, mayors, and other people of high ranking. I don't give them much respect.
Why is that a bad thing? Your beloved FARC does the same thing. [/b]
It IS a BAD Thing when Innocent people die. The FARC have Bombed Churhes killing hundreds , taken priests hostage and committed countless atrocities. The masses will never commit to Revolution when you have waged war on the masses and in effect that is what the FARC has done. For the FARC to EVER succeed they need to take some drastic measures to change and clean up there image.

TheKwas
26th February 2005, 01:11
I miss the ELN...

redstar2000
26th February 2005, 02:48
Originally posted by Anarchist Freedom
12,561 Innocent civilians have died at the hands of the Shining Path.

Gee, you've been keeping score...and you actually claim to "know" that they were all "innocent" civilians too.

Well, what's the tally on the other side? How many innocent civilians have the Peruvian military and police killed?

How many innocent civilians in Peru die on a daily basis as a consequence of the normal operation of imperialist exploitation?

If you want to be a revolutionary, you have to look at the totality.


Shining Path "has bombed police headquarters and municipal offices, gas stations and middle-class apartment buildings, think tanks and public schools. It has paralyzed the country with so-called armed strikes, and set fire to bus drivers who defied its orders to stay at home on strike days. It has murdered peasant families and leftist leaders. Most often, victims are killed in full view of their family or community. Sometimes they are hanged and sometimes shot, but often an execution-squad member— in many cases a woman — delivers the coup de grace with a knife. Sometimes the tail of a live cat will be set on fire and then the animal will be let loose on a field of corn ready for picking. Sometimes a man who has just finished casting a mandatory vote in a national election will have the finger with the telltale electoral ink hacked off." Source: Alma Guillermoprieto, "Letter from Lima: Down the Shining Path"

Did Shining Path ask for your advice on how to wage their struggle? For some reason, they didn't ask mine.

I personally don't approve of setting fire to a cat; I wouldn't do that.

The rest of those things don't bother me.

Remember that guerrilla warfare is not "romantic"...it's dirty!

What do you think the Peruvian military does to peasants suspected of supporting the guerrillas? (Hint: they don't give them a big hug and a wet kiss.)

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TheKwas
26th February 2005, 03:52
Did Shining Path ask for your advice on how to wage their struggle? For some reason, they didn't ask mine.


Apperantly they didn't ask the 12,561 civilians for advice either...

Using this logic, I could make the arguement that the Nazis never asked for your opinions regarding jews.


Remember that guerrilla warfare is not "romantic"...it's dirty!

It doesn't have to be as dirty as the Shining Path's methods. Alot of the stuff they did simply can't be excused.

redstar2000
26th February 2005, 04:46
Originally posted by TheKwas
Using this logic, I could make the argument that the Nazis never asked for your opinions regarding Jews.

No you couldn't...because I am not an anti-semite.

In fact, there are plenty of anti-semites out there today who "disagree" with Nazi "methods" but who share the same goals. They could make that argument -- "the Nazis should have asked my advice" -- but you cannot make that argument about me.

I agree with Shining Path in their struggle to overthrow the American puppet regime...and I can fairly and logically point out that they didn't ask me as to the best way to do that.


It doesn't have to be as dirty as the Shining Path's methods. A lot of the stuff they did simply can't be excused.

Then don't excuse it.

So far, the only really bad thing, in my view, that the critics of Shining Path have come up with is setting fire to cats (I wonder if that actually happened).

And I'm starting to notice a pattern of evasion here. Where's the indignation over the deeds of the Peruvian military and police???

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colombiano
26th February 2005, 04:47
Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 03:52 AM

Did Shining Path ask for your advice on how to wage their struggle? For some reason, they didn't ask mine.


Apperantly they didn't ask the 12,561 civilians for advice either...

Using this logic, I could make the arguement that the Nazis never asked for your opinions regarding jews.


Remember that guerrilla warfare is not "romantic"...it's dirty!

It doesn't have to be as dirty as the Shining Path's methods. Alot of the stuff they did simply can't be excused.

It doesn't have to be as dirty as the Shining Path's methods. Alot of the stuff they did simply can't be excused
Just like the FARC . However I just don't think some can understand this.

Hiero
26th February 2005, 05:21
Originally posted by Anarchist [email protected] 26 2005, 02:44 AM

Shining Path "has bombed police headquarters and municipal offices, gas stations and middle-class apartment buildings, think tanks and public schools. It has paralyzed the country with so-called armed strikes, and set fire to bus drivers who defied its orders to stay at home on strike days. It has murdered peasant families and leftist leaders. Most often, victims are killed in full view of their family or community. Sometimes they are hanged and sometimes shot, but often an execution-squad member— in many cases a woman — delivers the coup de grace with a knife. Sometimes the tail of a live cat will be set on fire and then the animal will be let loose on a field of corn ready for picking. Sometimes a man who has just finished casting a mandatory vote in a national election will have the finger with the telltale electoral ink hacked off." Source: Alma Guillermoprieto, "Letter from Lima: Down the Shining Path,"


Do These actions help our cause?
"Our" Cause.

You are not Peruvian, you are just some american wannabe revolutionary trying to tell real Marxist revolutionaries how it should be done.

I think its really arragonent and offensive to be telling people who have been fighitng for 16 years for independance that they have been doing it all wrong.


Using this logic, I could make the arguement that the Nazis never asked for your opinions regarding jews.

Where ever in doubt, use the old camparsion between Nazi's.

Ele'ill
26th February 2005, 20:57
"Our" Cause.

You are not Peruvian, you are just some american wannabe revolutionary trying to tell real Marxist revolutionaries how it should be done.

I think its really arragonent and offensive to be telling people who have been fighitng for 16 years for independance that they have been doing it all wrong.


As far as I can see, no other suggestions were given on how they should have fought for their independence. It was a question reguarding the tactics used.
It was odd that the word 'our' was used as some groups and movments do not wish to be automatically associated with other groups or larger movments. You have however failed to answer the question at hand.


Do These actions help our cause?


Replace 'our' with 'their'.






Where ever in doubt, use the old camparsion between Nazi's.

It was an example that a broad audience can connect with and understand.

TheKwas
27th February 2005, 07:16
Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 04:46 AM


Then don't excuse it.

So far, the only really bad thing, in my view, that the critics of Shining Path have come up with is setting fire to cats (I wonder if that actually happened).

So then, just for the record, You don't think that the following is bad...

-Bombing gas stations and middle-class apartment buildings, think tanks and public schools.
-Set fire to bus drivers who defied its orders to stay at home on strike days.
-Murdering peasant families and leftist leaders. Most often, victims are killed in full view of their family or community. Sometimes they are hanged and sometimes shot
-Sometimes a man who has just finished casting a mandatory vote in a national election will have the finger with the telltale electoral ink hacked off.
-The killing of 12,561 civilians, some of which might have even been innocent.
(all taken from anarchismfreedom's post)


And I'm starting to notice a pattern of evasion here. Where's the indignation over the deeds of the Peruvian military and police???


Why do they have to sink down to their level? Can't they be the true champions of the masses, fight with honour and minimalize civilian suffering?


Just like the FARC . However I just don't think some can understand this.

I have never really supported FARC and approved of it's methods. But I did have respect for the ELN before they merged with FARC.

The Garbage Disposal Unit
27th February 2005, 07:54
Of course, in order to condemn these things, we have to believe that they really happened. Given the Peruvian Government's history of telling blatent lies about Sendero Luminoso, and given the composition of the Reconcilliation Committee (Is that right? I was researching SL, but it's been a while, and I'm tired) - the likely source for the claims of attrocities by SL - I'm not really sure how much I buy the claims about how "bad" Sendero really are.

We might also want to consider these in the light of confirmed government attrocities. To condemn one without acknowledging the other is absurd.

Latin America
27th February 2005, 10:12
South America right now is one of the worst places to live, so much corruption, illness, hunger, poverty and politician making a living out of the people and the worst Presidents killing their own people, this so called Democracy they defend, it’s funny but true our countries in South America are corrupt as it can get! I agree with red star in one part, every day that passes by it seems that for South America the only way for a better future is violence. To be honest I don’t like violence myself and I am more of a calm guy, If I want to change something in South America I will probably do it the less violence possible way there is, but that’s just me. The Indigenous people of Peru suffer many years of injustice, abuse and death, (over 500 years and they still do today) if this group contain indigenous citizens and they fight for the people why not be agree with them and support them, they are against the Peruvian government not against the people, what ever changes the situation for good in Peru is 100 times better that the current situation today. Rule for the people with the people for a better future for a better Peru!!!

fernando
27th February 2005, 11:54
The problem is that non violent ways dont really seem to work, most political leaders get to power and are then addicted to that power instead of keeping true to their old ideals...

But okay, if I were to pick a group in Peru to support I would rather support the MRTA than Sendero Luminoso. The SL are not that cooperative with other Latin American nations (as in they wouldnt work with other Latin American groups), they attacked other groups such as the MRTA while they both want to get rid of the imperialists.

But then again, it is right now out of Guzman's control and in control of another comandante, so I dont know how things will work out.

Inti
27th February 2005, 16:07
I hope that SL and all Senderistas will get shot and die a long and painful death. They have killed lots of my wifes relatives who are from Ayacucho. They are a bunch of roughneck bandit sons of *****es and they are no better than that sob Bush or Choledo.
I also have a friend here that escaped from SL, they killed the husband of his sister and he came a little bit late but was able to kill that Senderista with a knife since the senderista didnt have more bullets in his gun.
Here in Norway there are Senderistas fundraising for the movement by saying that its help for poor children in remote areas, but the funding goes to the movement.
I dont know much about the MRTA but at least SL is a murdering bunch of motherfuckers. Sorry if I get a little bit upset, but anyone who kills innocent people, poor farmers for not giving the movement food and money and pay for "protection" are just a bunch of Murderers

redstar2000
27th February 2005, 16:58
Originally posted by Inti+--> (Inti)I hope that SL and all Senderistas will get shot and die a long and painful death. They have killed lots of my wife's relatives who are from Ayacucho.[/b]

For all we on this board know, your wife's relatives could have had it coming.

I have noticed that when gusanos come here to post, their biggest complaint about Castro is that he took the wealth away from their fucking relatives.

Your personal gripes have no relevance to a political analysis of the significance of Shining Path.


TheKwas
So then, just for the record, You don't think that the following is bad...

How would I know? The American quislings in Lima say that Shining Path has done "terrible things" and you believe them?

On what grounds? Their reputation for truthfulness??? :lol:

If I was there, saw things first hand, understood what the objectives were, why the decisions were made to attack this target or that, etc., THEN I could express an opinion with some confidence.

Those of you who wish to erect your tents "on the moral high ground" are certainly free to do so...but nothing you have to say is going to mean anything in the struggle against U.S. imperialism.

No doubt it would be a lot easier to support an "ideal revolutionary movement" that always behaved perfectly -- and some folks are so naive as to think that any movement they support actually does "behave perfectly". The way some Maoists talk, you'd think the Maoists in China all behaved like fucking saints.

I'll repeat what I said before: guerrilla warfare is not romantic, it's dirty! Peasants are not humanitarians; in fact, peasant revolutions are pretty notorious for their brutality. From a historical view, Shining Path, the FARC, etc. are probably well above average in their conduct of their wars. You should read some of the stuff written about the Russian and Chinese civil wars! Or the civil wars in Africa!

I don't mean to be "harsh" here...but I think it's necessary to understand how really harsh the ruling elites actually are. Their brutalities far exceed even the most brutal of their revolutionary opponents.

If Shining Path wins -- driving U.S. imperialism out of that country -- then no one with any sense is going to care how they did it.

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Ele'ill
28th February 2005, 05:11
Your personal gripes have no relevance to a political analysis of the significance of Shining Path.

How compassionate of you.



If I was there, saw things first hand, understood what the objectives were, why the decisions were made to attack this target or that, etc., THEN I could express an opinion with some confidence.

Then how can you have a strong critique against anything?




Those of you who wish to erect your tents "on the moral high ground" are certainly free to do so...but nothing you have to say is going to mean anything in the struggle against U.S. imperialism

If you are fighting against imperialist ideology, and their general actions against humanity, then you are fighting for morals. If you are against imperialist brutality yet engage in them yourself for your own political gain or 'liberation' you are no better than they are.


I don't mean to be "harsh" here...but I think it's necessary to understand how really harsh the ruling elites actually are. Their brutalities far exceed even the most brutal of their revolutionary opponents.


You are not so much harsh as you are perverse. Attrocities are still attrocities. It does not matter if one side kills three hundred civilians while the other side 'only killed thirty civilians'. If these individuals are capable of using intimidation and brutal force against a civilian population, how can anyone trust them in power?


If Shining Path wins -- driving U.S. imperialism out of that country -- then no one with any sense is going to care how they did it.

If I was part of a revolutionary movment in america, and I came into your house, tied your wife up and shot her in the head in front of you, oh but wait....before you jump to conclusions, my movement did drive imperialist forces out. So indimidation and murder was justified.

redstar2000
28th February 2005, 05:39
Originally posted by Mari3L
If you are fighting against imperialist ideology, and their general actions against humanity, then you are fighting for morals.

No, afraid not.

You may, if you so desire, oppose imperialism on "moral" grounds...and they certainly earn your opposition.

But I am not fighting for "moral supremacy" but real, practical supremacy -- to see them utterly defeated and eliminated from the face of the planet.


If [blah, blah, blah] you are no better than they are.

Ok. If imperialism gets defeated, then anyone who wants to wag their finger of moral disapproval at me is free to do so.

I promise to lose at least 10 seconds of sleep over that. :lol:


If these individuals are capable of using intimidation and brutal force against a civilian population, how can anyone trust them in power?

Don't ask me, ask the Peruvians! In fact, ask them how they can "trust" the imperialist lackeys that run their country now?

I "trust" Shining Path to weaken U.S. imperialism if and when they come to power...at least for a while.

That's "good enough" for me.


If I was part of a revolutionary movement in America, and I came into your house, tied your wife up and shot her in the head in front of you, oh but wait....before you jump to conclusions, my movement did drive imperialist forces out. So intimidation and murder was justified.

A moronic "if"...as I am not a collaborator with imperialism.

And, judging from your posts thus far on this board, you will be "a part of a revolutionary movement" when pigs learn to fly.

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Ele'ill
28th February 2005, 06:03
No, afraid not.

You may, if you so desire, oppose imperialism on "moral" grounds...and they certainly earn your opposition.

But I am not fighting for "moral supremacy" but real, practical supremacy -- to see them utterly defeated and eliminated from the face of the planet


Morals are your beliefs. You believe in practical supremeacy, then practical supremeacy must revolve around your morals. Utter defeat and elimination without moral supremecy would be fun. For about five seconds.



Ok. If imperialism gets defeated, then anyone who wants to wag their finger of moral disapproval at me is free to do so.

I promise to lose at least 10 seconds of sleep over that.

If che had murdered 3 million people on his quest for liberation, would it have been practical? No, it would not. common sense would show you that you wouldn't be able to succesfully wage a revolutionary war with such tactics without loosing support from the population.


Don't ask me, ask the Peruvians! In fact, ask them how they can "trust" the imperialist lackeys that run their country now?

I "trust" Shining Path to weaken U.S. imperialism if and when they come to power...at least for a while.

That's "good enough" for me.


You made the statment, the peruvians didn't.
It's replacing cancer with cancer. There are other evils in this world that will replace imperialism, and do more harm.




A moronic "if"...as I am not a collaborator with imperialism.

And, judging from your posts thus far on this board, you will be "a part of a revolutionary movement" when pigs learn to fly.

I never said you were a collaborator. Not all of those civilians were either.
I'd take my bets on pigs flying ;) , as it would occur sooner than the masses revolting for a revolutionary movment that intimidates them daily, and kills their families.

American_Trotskyist
28th February 2005, 06:03
[/QUOTE]For all we on this board know, your wife's relatives could have had it coming.
[QUOTE]
Nice compassionate post Red (I’m still laughing)

Yes SL will unlikely get to power and if they do they will be most reactionary, seeing that they are Maoists lead by peasants who dislike the workers in the cities. However, Sendero Luminso would be a much better government than the present corrupt government of Peru. Red proposes a opportunist Menshevik path, not much different than the Stalinists, thinking that they can create a bourgeois republic, then launching another revolution, and create an impossible communist system within one country, unless Red is asking for a world revolution and he sounds like a Trotskyist (maybe next he will realize that the Permanent Revolution can create communism, but I don't know ).

The fact is that the Peruvian forces commit much worse atrocities on their people than SL. But that doesn't mean that SL is much better and it is defiantly not a revolutionary Marxist force by being just a little better than the status quo. Only a WORKERS' revolution can bring communism, and only on a world wide scale. The Permanent Revolution, juxtaposition the world wide workers' revolution, can bring actual communism.

Yes, I have developed a hatred for those who worship Che and hate Marxism. You wear the shirts and put up the posters without knowing who he was or what he stood for. You preach against the Republicans, but are terrified of socialism. Che killed people too, in a revolutionary guerilla way just like SL. So don't put up his picture and desecrate his memory by condemning what he fought for, socialism (Which kind we still wonder he wanted). I am not a Che lover; perhaps back in the day I was; so I don't condemn people for fighting against oppression. You are an aesthetic communist/socialist/anarchist because you can't give up your bourgeois beliefs or reject their lies. Do you ever hear about the Peruvian military's atrocities? No, because it is called propaganda.

Red is correct when he says that we need to look at this through sober lens (a rough paraphrase). Hiero, you are too caught up in emotion for this. You deny the flaws of SL because you are too caught up in the revolutionary zeal of Peru. This is a discussion of what is the best for the revolution, so we look at this soberly. Perhaps Spinoza said it the best, "Our Task is not to weep, nor laugh, but to understand" (once again paraphrased)

And another thing, no more articles. I swear to God(even though I don’t think it exists) the next person who posts a Revolutionary Workers article, or any for that matter, I will personally hunt down and ***** slap profusely (excuse me for the term)

h&s
28th February 2005, 15:24
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 04:58 PM
How would I know? The American quislings in Lima say that Shining Path has done "terrible things" and you believe them?

On what grounds? Their reputation for truthfulness??? :lol:


The thing is that it is not just the suporters of American Imperialism that dislike the Sendero - I saw a program on the box about the cocaine farmers of Peru who detested the US speaking out agains the Shining Path.
However this is not really the point.



Those of you who wish to erect your tents "on the moral high ground" are certainly free to do so...but nothing you have to say is going to mean anything in the struggle against U.S. imperialism.

No doubt it would be a lot easier to support an "ideal revolutionary movement" that always behaved perfectly -- and some folks are so naive as to think that any movement they support actually does "behave perfectly". The way some Maoists talk, you'd think the Maoists in China all behaved like fucking saints.

I'll repeat what I said before: guerrilla warfare is not romantic, it's dirty! Peasants are not humanitarians; in fact, peasant revolutions are pretty notorious for their brutality. From a historical view, Shining Path, the FARC, etc. are probably well above average in their conduct of their wars. You should read some of the stuff written about the Russian and Chinese civil wars! Or the civil wars in Africa!

I don't mean to be "harsh" here...but I think it's necessary to understand how really harsh the ruling elites actually are. Their brutalities far exceed even the most brutal of their revolutionary opponents.

If Shining Path wins -- driving U.S. imperialism out of that country -- then no one with any sense is going to care how they did it.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif
The issue to me is not how Anmerican Imperialism is defeated - I have no illusions in the reality of this type of revolution - the issue is who replaces the imperialists. It certainly won't be the peasants or the workers - it will be the Maoists - another ruling elite. We've all seen what happened in China, and most of us would not support that again. I can not support the Shining Path - support the revolution by all means, but don't give any credit to it's leaders.

Anarchist Freedom
28th February 2005, 15:43
I dont think its justified to call themselves maoists then murder peasents.American imperialism is needed to be stopped but killing civilians isnt really the way to get people to support the revolution out of choice but more so instead of fear.

Colombia
28th February 2005, 16:32
Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 12:56 AM
It IS a BAD Thing when Innocent people die. The FARC have Bombed Churhes killing hundreds , taken priests hostage and committed countless atrocities. The masses will never commit to Revolution when you have waged war on the masses and in effect that is what the FARC has done. For the FARC to EVER succeed they need to take some drastic measures to change and clean up there image.
And what atrocities have they done? Who told you they have bombed churches and can you give me the name of the priest because if it is who I think it is, than I can see why the FARC took him hostage. Compared to the Colombian government, how can you say the FARC have caused nothing but suffering? The Colombian government in their entire existence has created violence thanks to the conservatives and liberals. Ever read of La Violencia and Gaitan? The creation and methods of the FARC can be justified. Why does no one mention the fact that the majority of people the FARC capture are part of the petroleum business, political leaders, and drug cartel henchmen? According to Marxists.com only 18% of the civilian population is killed by guerillas from the left.

Introduction

The civil conflict in Colombia has been epitomized by gross human rights violations that have increased dramatically over the past two decades. International human rights groups have repeatedly singled out right-wing paramilitary organizations as being the principal perpetrators of human rights abuses.

The paramilitaries are closely allied with the Colombian Armed Forces as they wage war against, not only the guerrillas, but also anyone suspected of being a guerrilla sympathizer, such as union members, peasant organizers, human rights workers and religious activists. Some paramilitary leaders have even extended the parameters of the war against the guerrillas and they're suspected sympathizers to include drug addicts, alcoholics, prostitutes, petty criminals and the homeless in an attempt to "cleanse" Colombian society.

Over the years several Colombian presidents have attempted to address the issues--social, political and economic injustices--that the guerrillas claim to be the principal cause of the conflict. However, these efforts have been repeatedly thwarted by the United States and its war on drugs, and by the Colombian political, economic and military elite who are desperately trying to preserve a "democracy" that has marginalized much of the population.

Many contemporary news accounts label the conflict a "thirty-five year-old civil war," basing its origin on the official formation of several guerrilla groups in the mid-1960's. However, the roots of Colombia's largest guerrilla group, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), date back to the peasant armed self-defense movements formed between 1948 and 1958 during the period known as La Violencia.

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La Violencia and the National Front

During the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, the Liberal and Conservative parties, whose influence reached from Bogotá to virtually every village in the settled regions of the country, dominated Colombian politics. Ideological differences between the Liberal and Conservative elite reverberated throughout Colombian society often resulting in outbreaks of violence that repeatedly pitted loyal Liberal and Conservative factions, both peasant and elite, against each other.

In the late 1940's dissident Liberal Jorge Eliécer Gaitán, having emerged from the Liberal and communist led agrarian and labor reform movements, was a leading presidential candidate. But on April 9, 1948, Gaitán was assassinated on a Bogotá street. The Liberal leader's killing triggered the Bogotazo, a popular uprising by the Liberal lower classes that resulted in massive destruction and looting in the capital.

Similar Liberal peasant uprisings occurred simultaneously throughout the country pitting rural Liberals and Conservatives against each other. Fearing the violence might lead to a peasant-based social rebellion, the Liberal leadership supported the repressive means used by the Conservative government to quell the uprisings in order to preserve the Liberal and Conservative oligarchy. However, in spite of the loose alliance between the Liberal and Conservative parties, two high-ranking Liberals were assassinated in 1949. This resulted in the Liberal Party's abstention from the 1950 presidential election, which was won uncontested by Conservative candidate Laureano Gómez.

Although the rebellion had been effectively quelled in Bogotá, there continued to be sporadic armed peasant uprisings in several rural departments. President Gómez, who considered Liberal peasants akin to Communists, responded to the uprisings with violent repression. Many Liberal members of the national police force were dismissed and replaced with peasants from the Conservative Boyacá district of Chulavita. These chulavistas soon became infamous for the brutal tactics they used to repress rebellious Liberals and communists.

In the early 1950's, the Gómez regime--supported by the Church, which had been victimized during the uprising, and by the United States, which viewed Communist Party support for peasants through a Cold War lens--elevated the repression to new heights. The chaotic violence pitted rural Liberals and Conservatives against each other. It also resulted in battles between the oligarchy and land-starved peasants that resulted in many large landowners abandoning their properties as they fled to the relative safety of the cities.

In 1953 Gómez was overthrown by a military coup that brought General Gustavo Rojas Pinilla to power. Rojas Pinilla immediately dispatched the military to reclaim the property of the landowners who had fled to the cities. In response, armed peasant groups called for agrarian reform. In June 1953, in an attempt to bring an end to the violence, Rojas Pinilla issued an amnesty to all the armed peasants and responded to their call for agrarian reform by creating the Office of Rehabilitation and Relief. In reality, this office did little to address the agrarian problem, though it did make the Liberal and Conservative elite suspicious that Rojas Pinilla was using it to build popular support for himself. In June 1954, Rojas Pinilla extended the amnesty to those imprisoned for acts of terror on behalf of the Gómez regime.

Many of the Gomezistas released from jail immediately began killing innocent peasants, forcing those that had accepted amnesty to once again take up arms. Rojas Pinilla responded in 1955 by launching a major military offensive against the rearmed peasants in what became known as the War of Villarica. It was in the department of Tolima during this offensive that the armed self-defense movements--that would later evolve into the FARC--came into existence. The Conservative and Liberal elite blamed the renewal of La Violencia on Rojas Pinilla and in 1957 organized a general strike and street protests in the capital that forced Rojas Pinilla to resign.

Following the ouster of Rojas Pinilla, the Conservative and Liberal elite implemented a power sharing agreement called the National Front. Beginning in 1958, the two parties alternated four-year terms in the presidency and distributed all public positions evenly between the two parties. The formation of the National Front brought an end to the nineteenth-century-style aspect of La Violencia: conflict between factions of the ruling elite. However, the new government still had to contend with the armed peasants.

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The Proliferation of Guerrilla Groups

Many peasants, mostly Liberals and communists, had survived the military offensives during the 1950's by undertaking long marches, under the protection of the armed self-defense movements, to the mostly uninhabited eastern departments of Meta and Caquetá. The peasants cleared and worked new lands in areas they declared "independent republics" in an attempt to free themselves from a national government they distrusted due to "personal experience with social and economic partisanship and their discovery of the double value system upheld by the ruling classes."1

However, the colonists soon discovered they had not found the autonomy they so desperately sought as the large landowners, intent on increasing their own land holdings, soon began laying claim to the newly cleared lands. Furthermore, the government had no intention of leaving the colonists alone: "In defining these republics as gangs of communist bandits, the government had an excuse to launch military attacks against them, condemn them politically, and blockade them economically.... The only possible outcome was war. One by one the republics fell to the army, and once they were under government control the land became concentrated in the hands of the large landowners."2

The peasants, who were forced deeper into the jungle, realized their only chance of achieving social justice lay in their ability to wage war against the government on a national level. As a result, the armed self-defense movements dispersed units to various regions of the country in order to fight the army on several fronts simultaneously under a central command structure. On July 20, 1964, the various fronts of the armed self-defense movements issued their agrarian reform program. Two years later they officially became the FARC.3

In 1960 the independent political party, National Popular Alliance (ANAPO), had been formed by supporters of Rojas Pinilla and was soon contending in congressional elections. ANAPO's popularity increased steadily throughout the 1960's as it appealed to many of those who had been left out of the National Front alliance. Rojas Pinilla ran as ANAPO's candidate in the April 19, 1970 presidential election and after holding an early lead was narrowly defeated by the National Front candidate Misael Pastrana Borrero. Many ANAPO supporters accused the government of manipulating the vote count and in response to the perceived electoral fraud, socialist members of ANAPO formed the M-19 guerrilla movement in 1972.

The M-19 gained notoriety through a series of daring urban raids that included the occupation of the Dominican Embassy in Bogotá in 1980 and the ill-fated takeover of the Palace of Justice in 1985. The latter resulted in the deaths of more than one hundred people, including eleven Supreme Court judges, during a two-day battle in which the army leveled the massive courthouse. In 1989 the M-19 guerrillas decided to lay down their weapons in return for a full government pardon. The ex-guerrillas formed a political party called the Democratic Alliance M-19 to participate in the upcoming elections; however, right-wing death squads soon assassinated many of the party's leaders, including presidential candidate and former M-19 commander Carlos Pizarro.

The M-19 had been formed as a response to the National Front, which successfully reserved positions of power for members of the Conservative and Liberal elite. This "limited democracy" also spawned other guerrilla movements in the 1960's, although there were other factors that also came into play. The Cuban Revolution influenced many radicals in Latin America, convincing them that Ernesto "Che" Guevara's foco theory of armed insurrection was the revolutionary road to follow. Also, the Colombian Communist Party's support of resolutions passed by the 20th Congress of the Soviet Communist Party calling for a peaceful road to revolution led many young Colombians to split from the Party in order to follow the Cuban model.

These factors led to the creation of the Popular Army of Liberation (EPL) in the department of Antioquia in the mid-1960's. Following the Soviet-Chinese split, the EPL espoused the Maoist theory of a "prolonged popular war." But after 1980 it began to distance itself from Maoist philosophy and in August 1990 many members decided to lay down their arms in order to participate in the political process, while a small dissident faction continued to fight in northern Colombia.

In 1964, university students who had recently returned from Cuba formed the nation's second-largest guerrilla group, the Army for National Liberation (ELN), in the department of Santander. The ELN adhered strictly to Che's principles of rural guerrilla warfare and, in contrast to the M-19 and the EPL, has so far refused to lay down its arms and participate in the political process. Sociologist Eduardo Pizarro points out that: "In recent years the ELN has focused its activities almost exclusively on efforts to disrupt and destroy the oil industry, attacking with great success the pipelines of the north."4

In fact, between 1986 and 1997 the ELN was responsible for 636 pipeline bombings that resulted in $1.5 billion in lost revenue for the state-owned oil company, Ecopetrol.5 For many years, the FARC and the EPL denounced the ELN for pursuing a strategy of economic sabotage that has failed to increase its popular support. However, by the end of the 1990s the FARC was also targeting pipelines used by multinational corporations to transport oil from remote drilling fields to coastal ports.

The FARC is the only Colombian guerrilla group with peasant roots that pre-date both the National Front and the Cuban Revolution. In contrast, the ELN, the EPL and the M-19 were all movements led by urban intellectuals and were typical of the many Latin American guerrilla groups that evolved in the 1960's: Cuban-inspired armed reactions to the domestic political, social and economic situation.

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The FARC and the Coca Boom

The 1974 presidential election brought an end to the National Front alliance as Liberal and Conservative candidates once again ran against each other. Sixteen years of National Front rule had reduced the amount of killings--in comparison to the 200,000 Colombians who died during the period of La Violencia--but it had failed to address the agrarian issue and a dramatic increase in poverty.

During the National Front years the percentage of the nation's work force living in absolute poverty more than doubled, from 25 percent to 50.7 percent. The figures were even worse for the rural labor force where the rate of absolute poverty soared from 25.4 percent to 67.5 percent."6 In light of such poverty, it is no surprise that when the coca boom began in the late 1970's the lure of drug profits resulted in a massive new migration of urban unemployed and landless peasants to the predominantly FARC-controlled colonized regions.

Initially, the FARC was concerned the new mass migration would undermine the political and social status quo in the areas under its control. However, at the same time, its income from war taxes imposed on the local population in return for maintaining social order increased dramatically. The new revenue enabled the rebel group to vastly improve its military capabilities by modernizing its weaponry and improving the guerrilla fighter's standard of living. In addition, the FARC was able to offer social and economic services "in the areas of credit, education, health, justice, registry, public works, and ecological and cultural programs."7

During the early years of the coca boom the guerrillas and the drug lords worked together. The guerrillas controlled many of the coca growing regions while the cartels managed much of the cocaine production and trafficking. However, this informal alliance soon collapsed when the leaders of the drug cartels in Medellín and Cali began investing their new found wealth in property, primarily large cattle ranches, which placed them firmly in the ranks of the guerrillas' traditional enemy. The new narco-landowners soon began organizing their own paramilitary armies in order to fight the guerrillas and those they viewed as guerrilla sympathizers.

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The Proliferation of Paramilitary Organizations

During their war against the narco-landowners, the guerrillas discovered another lucrative source of income to supplement their coca taxes: the kidnapping of narco-landowners and their relatives. In response to this guerrilla tactic, 223 drug traffickers in Cali formed the paramilitary group Death to Kidnappers (Muerte a Secuestradores, MAS) in December 1981. Over the next decade hundreds of paramilitary organizations based on the MAS model were founded.

The international human rights group, Human Rights Watch, described one such organization established by the Bárbula Battalion in Puerto Boyacá, Santander, under the military mayor, Captain Oscar de Jesús Echandía: "In 1982, Echandía convened a meeting of local people, including local Liberal and Conservative party leaders, businessmen, ranchers, and representatives from the Texas Petroleum Company. They found that their goal went far beyond protecting the population from guerrilla demands. They wanted to 'cleanse' (limpiar) the region of subversives.8

As a result of this meeting, hired men were armed in order to perform the "cleansing" with logistical support provided by the military. The new paramilitary force was named MAS, after the Cali organization. The acronym MAS was used by so many newly-armed groups that it soon became synonymous with "paramilitary organization."

Two of the civilians trained for paramilitary duty by the Bomboná Battalion in Puerto Berrío were the brothers Fidel and Carlos Castaño, whose father had been kidnapped and killed by the FARC. The brothers soon formed their own paramilitary force called the Peasant Self-Defense Groups of Córdoba and Urabá (ACCU) and "by the end of the decade, Fidel Castaño, known as 'Rambo,' was a top paramilitary leader as well as an influential drug trafficker.9

Meanwhile, the Patriotic Union (UP), a political party affiliated with the FARC, was formed in 1985 following a cease-fire agreement between the rebel group and President Belisario Betancur under the La Uribe accords. According to sociologist Ricardo Vargas Meza: "By incorporating some of the FARC's socio-economic demands and extending the cease-fire, the accords opened the possibility of a political resolution to the conflict. Betancur's position was a radical departure from that of his predecessors, for he recognized that guerrilla violence was the product of real social conditions and he understood the relationship between those conditions and the demands of the insurgents."10

However, many legislators were opposed to Betancur's peace initiatives and, with the help of newly-elected President Virgilio Barco in 1986, soon put an end to any negotiated threat to the interests of the oligarchy. In addition to ending the cease-fire, "the state unleashed a dirty war, primarily against the Patriotic Union. During 1988 alone, close to 200 leaders of the Patriotic Union were assassinated."11 In total, more than 1,000 members were killed, including two presidential candidates, during the UP's first five years.

The paramilitary organizations involved in the dirty war were not only closely allied to the Colombian Armed Forces, they were legal militias. The Commission for the Study of the Violence notes that Law 48, which was passed in 1968, "permitted the military to organize and provide arms to groups of civilians called 'self-defense' units, so that they could fight back against organized delinquents and also against armed groups operating in certain peasant regions."12

During the La Uribe cease-fire accords, when counterinsurgency operations were prohibited, the army intensified its application of Law 48 in order to create paramilitary forces capable of performing "cleansing" operations directed against the rural peasant population. The use of paramilitary forces in the dirty war provided the military with a degree of "plausible deniability" in regards to human rights abuses.

In spite of the proliferation of paramilitaries, the FARC successfully maintained its control of many southern and eastern regions of the country. However, paramilitary forces in northern Colombia, through the use of terror, displaced entire populations in order to implement an aggressive counter-agrarian reform. These tactics allowed narco-landowners to further increase their land holdings whilst at the same time disrupting bases of peasant support for the guerrillas. By the end of the 1980's, drug traffickers had become the largest landowners in the country and as a result had turned "large swaths of rural Colombia into large, unproductive cattle ranches."13

On February 20, 1983, the Procurador General (Attorney General) released the results of an investigation ordered by President Belisario Betancur into death squad activity by MAS organizations. Of the 163 individuals implicated in the report, 59 were active members of the police or military. Father Javier Giraldo S.J., the executive director of the Colombian human rights group Inter-Congregation of Peace and Justice, suggests that the reaction of the armed forces and the Minister of Defense to the report insinuated a military coup was imminent. As a result, "the Attorney General's office itself would adopt from that time on a favorable attitude toward paramilitarism, by abstaining from gathering evidence and by refusing to implement any sanctioning measure against the members of MAS."14

On the rare occasion that a case against a member of MAS or the armed forces did make it to court, the judge, out of fear for his or her life, would usually turn the case over to a military court and the charges would inevitably be dismissed. This impunity allowed military and paramilitary forces to wage war against the nation's peasant population without fear of retribution. Furthermore, Colombia had spent most of the previous two decades under an official "state of siege," during which the military had been given virtual autonomy in its handling of the civil conflict while the government focused, almost exclusively, on bureaucratic and administrative issues. In essence, this dual system of government allowed the military and its paramilitary allies to function with little accountability.

During the night of March 4, 1988, a group of armed men massacred 17 workers on the La Honduras farm and three more workers on the neighboring La Negra farm in the Urabá region of the department of Antioquia. All the victims were members of the local banana workers union. According to Human Rights Watch, the ensuing investigation into the massacre showed that "over the preceding weeks the army had arrested some of the eventual victims, taken their pictures, and detained others who were tortured into giving information. This information was then provided to the killers. Before the massacre, the killers were put up at a Medellín hotel by Maj. Luis Becerra Bohórquez, a member of the intelligence division of the Tenth Brigade. Becerra paid the bill with his Diner's Club card.15

In September 1988, Judge Martha Lucia González, who was later forced to flee the country due to death threats, issued a warrant for Becerra's arrest that was never served because "the officer was not available since he was in the United States taking a course necessary for his promotion to lieutenant-colonel."16 Shortly after the charges against him were dropped, Becerra was involved in another military-paramilitary massacre of 13 people in Riofrío on October 5, 1993. Following the Riofrío massacre Becerra was forced into retirement by executive decree and, in spite of a warrant again being issued for his arrest, remained a free man.

An arrest warrant was also issued for the leader of the ACCU paramilitary group, Fidel Castaño, for his role in the La Honduras/La Negra massacre. Castaño was never arrested, though he was convicted in absentia and sentenced to twenty years in prison. The ACCU leader was also implicated in four more massacres between 1988 and 1990, and "Castaño himself has admitted taking part in planning the 1990 murder of UP (Patriotic Union) presidential candidate Bernardo Jaramillo."17

Although the military has been involved in the creation and operations of many of the paramilitary organizations, it does not always control them. By 1989 the narco-landowners were not only using their paramilitary forces against the guerrillas and rural peasants, they were also targeting government officials, especially politicians and judges who supported the extradition of drug traffickers to the United States. A group of traffickers led by Medellín cartel chief Pablo Escobar, calling themselves the "Extraditables," waged a violent bombing campaign in Colombia's cities in an attempt to pressure the government into ending extradition.

Paramilitary forces also targeted government officials courageous enough to combat death squad activities. On January 18, 1989, two judges and ten investigators who had been investigating a number of killings by paramilitary forces were themselves massacred by paramilitaries. The government could no longer ignore the gruesome statistics: a dramatic increase in political killings from 1,053 in the 1970's to 12,859 in the 1980's, including 108 massacres in 1988 alone.18 However, perhaps more important in the minds of the politicians was the fact that the paramilitaries were increasingly targeting government officials.

As a result, President Virgilio Barco criticized the paramilitary organizations in an April 1989 speech: "In reality, the majority of their victims are not guerrillas. They are men, women and even children, who have not taken up arms against institutions. They are peaceful Colombians."19 On May 25, 1989, the Colombian Supreme Court ruled Law 48 unconstitutional and the following month President Barco issued Decree 1194 which made it illegal for civilians or members of the military to create, aid or participate in "self-defense" groups.

Needless to say, the outlawing of the paramilitaries did little to diminish their activities or their affiliation with the armed forces. Father Giraldo describes the eyewitness account of an army informant who was present at the Trujillo massacre which occurred in March 1990, less than a year after the abolishment of Law 48 and the issuance of Decree 1194: "Just before midnight on the 31st, a combined army/paramilitary group dragged a large number of campesinos out of their houses, took them to the hacienda of a well-known drug trafficker and brutally tortured them, dismembering them with a chainsaw. The army major reserved the most brutal of the tortures for himself."20

Once again the Colombian courts failed to convict those accused of the massacre. So Father Giraldo and his organization decided to take the case, on behalf of the 63 victims, to the Inter-American Commission of Human Rights at the Organization of American States.

After two years of discussions the Colombian government agreed to create an extra-judicial commission consisting of governmental and non-governmental representatives. The newly formed Commission found the government responsible for the actions of the military personnel involved in the Trujillo massacre and damages were awarded to the victims' families. However, those found responsible for the massacre were never punished due to the fact they had been previously absolved by the Colombian courts.21

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The United States and the Paramilitaries

In February 1990, United States President George Bush announced his Andean Initiative, which consisted of $2.2 billion of economic and military aid to Colombia, Peru and Bolivia. Two-thirds of the aid was earmarked for military and police units as part of the U.S. strategy of fighting the drug war on the military front whilst mostly ignoring the economic causes (i.e. poverty) of coca production. Furthermore, the governments were told that in order to receive the economic portion of the aid, they had to first accept the military aid.22

In response to Bush's "strings attached" Andean Initiative, "only the Colombian government of Virgilio Barco had no reservations about signing the military agreement, enabling the Bush White House to deepen its relationship with one of the more brutal officer corps in the hemisphere which, in alliance with the police and rightist death squads, had worked closely with the Medellín cartel for more than a decade."23

The U.S. Administration was not only intensifying its war against drugs, although that is what it led the public to believe, it was also becoming more involved in Colombia's counterinsurgency operations. In 1990, the United States, in order to advise the Colombian military on a reorganization of its intelligence network, put together a fourteen-member team that "included representatives of the U.S. Embassy's Military Group, U.S. Southern Command, the Defense Intelligence Agency, and the CIA."24 In May 1991, the reorganization was complete and the Colombian Defense Ministry issued Order 200-05/91.

According to Human Rights Watch: "Contrary to the stated objectives of the Andean strategy, however, Order 200-05/91 has little if anything to do with combating drugs."25 In fact, there is no mention of drugs in the sixteen pages of Order 200-05/91, which formulates a strategy to aid the Colombian military in its counterinsurgency war against the guerrillas.

One consequence of Order 200-05/91 was the undermining of Decree 1194 which had made it illegal for civilians and members of the military to create, aid or participate in "self-defense" groups. According to Human Rights Watch, Order 200-05/91 called for the military to create thirty intelligence networks and "instructs division and brigade commanders to select candidates 'whether civilians or retired military personnel, for integration into the networks cadre.'"26

One of the thirty networks was created by the Colombian navy in Barrancabermeja, situated on the Magdelena River and the site of Colombia's largest oil refinery. A member of the network, Felipe Gómez, who testified in return for a lesser sentence, admitted organizing several paramilitary organizations for the military. He also claimed to have "received weapons and equipment from the navy, including bolt-action rifles, M16 rifles, Galil rifles, revolvers, pistols, submachine guns, fragmentation grenades, military instruction texts, and high-frequency two-way radios to communicate with the navy and the army."27

Not only is it against the law for civilians to possess many of these weapons, it is also, as a result of the 1989 Supreme Court decision ruling Law 48 unconstitutional, illegal for the military to supply such arms to the civilian population. Carlos David López, the Barrancabermeja network administrator, also testified to civilian authorities and in his confession he attributed 46 murders to the network during the first six months of 1992. Gómez, López, and other witnesses who testified about the Barrancabermeja intelligence network have since "disappeared."

The role of the paramilitaries was further legitimized on December 13, 1994, when President Ernesto Samper initiated a new program called Cooperatives for Surveillance and Private Security (CONVIVIR). The program allowed civilians "to set up 'rural security cooperatives' with the stated intention of providing troops with intelligence on their regions.28 In essence, CONVIVIR, in conjunction with Order 200-05/91, all but re-legalized paramilitary organizations.

The reorganization of the Colombian Armed Forces' intelligence network is only one aspect of U. S. involvement in the Colombian military's counterinsurgency campaign. International human rights organizations have claimed that substantial amounts of U.S. aid in the 1990's went to Colombian army units that have a history of human rights abuses and that the primary function of many of these units is to fight the guerrillas, not the drug war.29

In response to the human rights abuses perpetrated by the Colombian military and its paramilitary allies, the United States cut off military aid to Colombia from 1994 until 1997. However, according to the Washington Post, there were 28 U.S. army deployments in 1996 "under a 1991 law that permits U.S. Special Forces to train on foreign soil if the training is primarily to benefit the U.S. troops."30 It is difficult to understand how the U.S. Special Forces were the primary beneficiaries of counterinsurgency training conducted with poorly trained, poorly equipped and poorly motivated Colombian soldiers.

The Clinton Administration continued to utilize the 1991 law after aid was restored because it was not subject to the Leahy Amendment of the Foreign Operations Appropriations Act. Under the Leahy Amendment, only Colombian military units cleared of human rights abuses are allowed to receive U.S. aid. Such contradictory policies allowed the Clinton Administration to publicly portray itself as a staunch defender of human rights without having to compromise its support for Colombia's repressive military forces.

Furthermore, Colombian officers and soldiers regularly receive training at the U.S. army's School of the Americas in Fort Benning, Georgia. According to Human Rights Watch: "Several of these officers were students at the school at the time its curriculum included training manuals recommending that soldiers use bribery, blackmail, threats, and torture against insurgents.31 Many of the Colombian officers implicated in human rights violations, including the aforementioned Lt. Col. Becerra Bohórquez who was involved in the La Honduras/La Negra and Riofrío massacres, are graduates of the School of the Americas.

Another tragic aspect of the conflict has been the dramatic increase in "social cleansing killings" committed by the paramilitaries. The mission of many paramilitary organizations now includes a "moral" purification of Colombian society through "the physical elimination of drug addicts, exconvicts, petty thieves and criminals, prostitutes, homosexuals, beggars and street children."32

Between 1989 and 1993 there were 1,926 documented cases of social cleansing performed by death squads or assassins known as "sicarios." Many of these assassins come from the ranks of the young urban unemployed who are becoming increasingly marginalized as a result of Colombia's deteriorating economy. Ironically, once their employers decide they know too much, these young assassins often become the targets of newly recruited sicarios.

In his essay, "The Possibilities for Peace," Arturo Alape examines the level of violence that exists in modern day Colombia: "In the first 11 months of 1997, 23,532 people were killed--an average of 70 people murdered each day. With a total of 185 politically motivated massacres in 1997 alone, Colombia has been singled out by international human rights groups as one of the worst violators of human rights on the planet.33 According to the human rights organization, Colombian Commission of Jurists (CCJ), paramilitary groups were responsible for 76 percent of the human rights violations committed in 1997, while the guerrillas were blamed for 17 percent and the armed forces for seven percent.34

Politically motivated massacres and social cleansing are not the only tragic consequences of the conflict: Colombia is currently the global leader in kidnappings with 1,658 cases in 1998;35 it is estimated that more than 1,500 people have "disappeared" for political reasons over the past decade;36 and there are currently more than one million internally displaced who have been forced from their homes by the violence.37

A 1998 Human Rights Watch report accused all parties involved in the conflict of human rights abuses. The report criticizes the army for its "consistent and profound failure or refusal to properly distinguish civilians from combatants" and for continuing to provide logistical support to paramilitaries who are responsible for the majority of the massacres. The report also accuses the FARC of being responsible the kidnappings and massacres of civilians. Human Rights Watch charges the ELN with targeting civilians, sowing land mines and "systematically bombing Colombia's oil pipelines in order to extort money from oil companies."38


Back to Top

The United States and the Drug War

The FARC's upgrading of its military capabilities over the past decade has resulted in a corresponding increase in paramilitary activity. In 1985, the FARC only controlled 173 of the nation's 1,071 municipalities, but by 1998 the rebel group controlled 622 municipalities.39 To combat the advances of the FARC, Carlos Castaño, who became leader of the ACCU following his brother's disappearance in 1994, expanded his paramilitary operations from the regional to the national level in April 1997. He then renamed the Peasant Self-Defense Units of Córdoba and Urabá (ACCU) the United Self-Defense Units of Colombia (AUC). The AUC then launched offensives in southern regions of the country that have traditionally been guerrilla strongholds.

In November 1998, President Andres Pastrana withdrew 2,000 soldiers and police from a 16,200 square mile area in southern Colombia in preparation for the upcoming peace talks with the FARC. A paramilitary offensive, launched to coincide with the talks, resulted in the deaths of 136 civilians over a four-day period. In response, the FARC withdrew from the negotiations claiming the paramilitaries are an impediment to the peace process and that talks cannot continue until the government makes a serious attempt to dismantle the right-wing death squads. Pastrana's was facing the same obstacles as some of his predecessors whose peace overtures had been undermined by the oligarchy, the military, and the paramilitaries, as these groups continually refused to recognize the legitimacy of some of the rebels' demands.

Furthermore, the U.S. government continued to focus on a military solution to its war on drugs, which it made virtually synonymous with the war against the guerrillas. The Clinton Administration, by repeatedly linked the rebels to drug trafficking by referring to them as "narco-guerrillas." Consequently, Washington has seriously misrepresented a conflict that has, for fifty years, been deeply rooted in the political, social and economic inequalities so prevalent in Colombian society. Even the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency admitted, "the FARC is not involved in international drug trafficking. Rather, it is one of many actors--including elements of the armed forces and paramilitary organizations--engaged in the lucrative drug trade."40

In 1998, the U.S. Congress allocated $290 million in anti-drugs aid to Colombia to be spent over the next three years. The huge majority of this aid was geared towards purchasing helicopters and weaponry for military and police use in coca eradication projects. Only $45 million of the aid was earmarked for crop substitution programs. Also in 1998, the U.S. government began pressuring the Colombian Government to use the herbicide Tebuthiuron, an extremely powerful chemical that kills virtually everything it comes into contact with.

Even Dow Agro Sciences, the manufacturer, stated that the herbicide should not be used for widespread coca eradication: "Tebuthiuron is not labeled for use on any crops in Colombia, and it is our desire that this product not be used for illicit crop eradication. It can be very risky in situations where territory has slopes, rainfall is significant, desirable plants or trees are nearby, and application is made under less-than-ideal circumstances.41 This geographic description accurately depicts the mountainous rain-forest terrain where most of Colombia's coca is grown and where the U.S. wanted to aerial spray the herbicide from high altitude under what must be considered "less-than-ideal circumstances." The Colombian government, citing environmental concerns, refused to submit to U.S. pressure regarding the use of Tebuthiuron.

The current U.S. strategy of supporting the most repressive military force in the hemisphere in its war against the guerrillas and peasant coca growers virtually ignores the economic realities that have forced the impoverished peasant farmer to turn to coca production. In a 1999 interview, the FARC's supreme commander, Manuel "Sureshot" Marulanda, claimed his organization could eradicate coca production in three to five years.

To prove the feasibility of his claim, Marulanda stated that, if supplied with economic aid from the government and international organizations, he would take one municipality under his control and eradicate its coca production by implementing a crop substitution program.42 Regardless of the feasibility of Marulanda's claims, it is clear that the U.S. strategy of crop eradication, without offering peasant farmers viable alternatives, has failed to stem coca production.

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Conclusion

For fifty years the FARC and its predecessors have claimed to be fighting for agrarian reform and social justice for Colombia's peasant population. The FARC has evolved into a powerful military force of 15,000 to 20,000 fighters who now control approximately 40 percent of the country. A U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) report issued in November 1997 "concluded that the Colombian Armed Forces could be defeated within five years unless the country's government regains political legitimacy and its armed forces are drastically restructured."43

U.S. Drug Czar General Barry McCaffrey echoed the findings of the DIA report when he claimed that Colombian democracy is being seriously threatened by the growing military strength of the guerrillas.44 Such statements lead one to believe that McCaffrey's concept of "democracy" involves: social order being "maintained" under a military state of siege; impunity for paramilitary forces who regularly massacre the civilian population; political candidates in opposition to the Conservative and Liberal elite being routinely assassinated; a judicial system paralyzed by fear; and thousands of peasants whose only economic means of survival is illicit coca production. Indeed, if the ruling political, economic and military elite, aided by the paramilitaries, continue to stifle truly democratic reform, then the demise of Colombian "democracy" may well be inevitable.

For its part, the United States appears intent on "Salvadorizing" the conflict. Colombia, as was the case with El Salvador in the 1980's, is currently the hemisphere's leading recipient of U.S. military aid. And it appears that Washington, in its attempt to prevent a guerrilla victory, is once again intent on supporting a repressive military that is closely allied to right-wing death squads. Such a policy will inevitably result in the continued suffering of the Colombian people, many of who are routinely subjected to massacres, torture, disappearance, kidnapping and forced displacement.

Any possibility of achieving a peaceful resolution to the conflict is reliant on the government's ability to dismantle the paramilitary organizations in order to create a climate conducive to negotiations between the government and the guerrillas. Then, and only then, will it be possible to address the political, social and economic causes of the conflict.

Report prepared by Garry Leech, May 1999.

This special report originally appeared in Colombia Report, an online journal that was published by the Information Network of the Americas (INOTA).

Copyright© 1999 Garry Leech


Back to Top . Comments


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notes

1. Alfredo Molano, "Violence and Land Colonization," Violence in Colombia: The Contemporary Crisis in Historical Perspective, Eds. Charles Bergquist, Ricardo Penaranda and Gonzalo Sanchez (Wilmington: Scholarly Resources, 1992), 199.
2. Ibid., 206-207.
3. Eduardo Pizarro, "Revolutionary Guerrilla Groups in Colombia," Violence in Colombia: The Contemporary Crisis in Historical Perspective, Eds. Charles Bergquist, Ricardo Penaranda and Gonzalo Sanchez (Wilmington: Scholarly Resources, 1992), 181.
4. Ibid., 178.
5. Steven Dudley and Mario Murillo, "Oil in a Time of War," NACLA-Report on the Americas, Mar./Apr. 1998, p. 42.
6. Benjamin Keen, A History of Latin America (Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1996), 514.
7. Alfredo Molano, "Violence and Land Colonization," 214.
8. Human Rights Watch/Americas, Colombia's Killer Networks: The Military-Paramilitary Partnership and the United States (New York: Human Rights Watch, 1996), 17.
9. Ibid., 18.
10. Ricardo Vargas Meza, "The FARC, the War and the Crisis of State," NACLA-Report on the Americas, Mar./Apr. 1998, 24.
11. Ibid., 25.
12. Commission for the Study of Violence, "Organized Violence," Violence in Colombia: The Contemporary Crisis in Historical Perspective, Eds. Charles Bergquist, Ricardo Penaranda and Gonzalo Sanchez (Wilmington: Scholarly Resources, 1992), 268.
13. Mark Chernick, "The Paramilitarization of the War in Colombia," NACLA-Report on the Americas, Mar./Apr. 1998, 30.
14. Javier Giraldo S.J., Colombia: The Genocidal Democracy (Monroe: Common Courage, 1996), 85.
15. Human Rights Watch/Americas, Colombia's Killer Networks: The Military-Paramilitary Partnership and the United States, 23.
16. Ibid., 74.
17. Ibid., 75.
18. Ibid., 25.
19. Ibid., 23-24.
20. Javier Giraldo S.J., Colombia: The Genocidal Democracy, 49.
21. Ibid., 51.
22. James Petras and Morris Morley, Latin America in the Time of Cholera: Electoral Politics, Market Economics, and Permanent Crisis (New York: Routledge, 1992), 60.
23. Ibid., 60.
24. Human Rights Watch/Americas, Colombia's Killer Networks: The Military-Paramilitary Partnership and the United States, 27.
25. Ibid., 28.
26. Ibid., 29.
27. Ibid., 33.
28. Ibid., 44.
29. Coletta Youngers, "U.S. Entanglements in Colombia Continue," NACLA-Report on the Americas, Mar./Apr. 1998, 34.
30. "A Sensitive Role for U.S. Troops," Washington Post, May 25, 1998, Heraldlink, Online.
31. Human Rights Watch/Americas, Colombia's Killer Networks: The Military-Paramilitary Partnership and the United States, 93.
32. Javier Giraldo S.J., Colombia: The Genocidal Democracy, 23-24.
33. Arturo Alape, "The Possibilities for Peace," NACLA-Report on the Americas, Mar./Apr. 1998, 36.
34. Human Rights Watch, "Human Rights Watch World Report 1998" Human Rights Watch, 1998, Online.
35. "Colombia Leads in Kidnappings, with 1,678 this Year," Miami Herald, December 25, 1998, Heraldlink, Online.
36. "Lots of Colombians Disappearing," Miami Herald, May 12, 1998, Heraldlink, Online.
37. "Colombia War Displaces 241,312 People in 1998," Reuters, November 29, 1998, CNN Interactive, Online.
38. Human Rights Watch/Americas, "War Without Quarter: Colombia and International Humanitarian Law," Human Rights Watch, 1998, Online.
39. Mark Chernick, "The Paramilitarization of the War in Colombia," NACLA-Report on the Americas, Mar./Apr. 1998, 32.
40. Coletta Youngers, "U.S. Entanglements in Colombia Continue," NACLA-Report on the Americas, Mar./Apr. 1998, 35.
41. Tod Robberson, "Drug War Herbicide May Harm Environment," Dallas Morning News, May 2, 1998, Heraldlink, Online.
42. "Colombian Rebels Offer to Wipe Out Drug Crops," Reuters, January 17, 1999, CNN Interactive, Online.
43. "Multilateral Invasion force for Colombia?" NACLA-Report on the Americas, May/June 1998, 46.
44. "U.S. Drugs Czar Says Colombian Democracy Under Threat," BBC News, March 1, 1999, Online.

This special report originally appeared in Colombia Report, an online journal that was published by the Information Network of the Americas (INOTA).

rice349
28th February 2005, 18:03
I am very supportive of FARC as well as Shining Path, I think revolution should be committed by any means necessary. The capitalist bourgeoisie pigs will go even further at stopping any leftist, progressive communist movements, therefore, whatever it takes to make real change is fair game!

Tupac-Amaru
28th February 2005, 18:17
Yo shut the fuck up! I am from Peru and i suffered the effects of El Sendero's campaign. Dont get me wrong! i hate capitalism and i hate the current government in Peru, but, although Sendero's orginial theories were good, they were carried out in an extremely horrible way.

Two of my uncles were army officers and killed by these Terrorists.
And i do hate the fact they joined the army in the first place but let me assure you, ive lived through it, my mother almost got killed by one of those terrorist when she was driving in the countryside (she didnt do anything, they just started throwing rocks at her car) ...trust me ! the Shining Path was not a good movement, and im glad its finished!

I do think that massive social change is nessesary in Peru, just not this type.

Im tired of these so-called revolutionaries, killing innocent people!!!! :angry:

And all you "american wannabe revolutionary" can suck my dick! Why dont you try living in Peru, and getting your family killed by a spray of machine-gun bullets!!! :angry:

colombiano
28th February 2005, 18:21
[/QUOTE]And what atrocities have they done? Who told you they have bombed churches and can you give me the name of the priest because if it is who I think it is, than I can see why the FARC took him hostage. Compared to the Colombian government, how can you say the FARC have caused nothing but suffering? The Colombian government in their entire existence has created violence thanks to the conservatives and liberals. Ever read of La Violencia and Gaitan? The creation and methods of the FARC can be justified. Why does no one mention the fact that the majority of people the FARC capture are part of the petroleum business, political leaders, and drug cartel henchmen? According to Marxists.com only 18% of the civilian population is killed by guerillas from the left.[QUOTE]

Colombia when was the last time you were there in COlombia? I visit often and my wife is also Colombian. Yes I have read La Violencia and Gaitan. I agree the violence during this period is what created the FARC however their tactics are simply that of terrorists. Do NOT treat me as if I know nothing on this subject . I would dare to say I am far more informed than you are. ONLY 18% ?? Well that is 18% too MUCH! I do not have any sources at hand but believe I will find them . I do recal withing the past 2 years FRAC claiming the responsability for the kidnapping and murder of a FAther from the Church. I also recal a bombing of a church in a small village killing many people. Do your research and stop using Google . Ask a REAL Colombian! I will be back with more I Promise.

Ele'ill
28th February 2005, 18:24
I am very supportive of FARC as well as Shining Path, I think revolution should be committed by any means necessary. The capitalist bourgeoisie pigs will go even further at stopping any leftist, progressive communist movements, therefore, whatever it takes to make real change is fair game!

Before I post a response I want you and others to simply be aware that I do not always fully stand behind the arguments I make on this forum. I simply feel the arguments are noteworthy and the ideas they are arguing need to be exercised with criticism.

Any means necessary is the same motto the capitalist are using, and the same literal tactic also. It won't matter how many civilians die from starvation, us backed coups, or US bombs ect.. as long as in the end, their is a goal in sight that says 'here is the goal, it is freedom, and the abolishment of 'evil' 'tyranny' 'corruption' for a free world" This seems hypoctical seeing how the US is currently deeply involved in all of these things. When the FARC and Shining path use 'by any means neccisary' for their vision of a free world without tyranny and the abolisment of corruption, while engaing heavily in these themselves, it is also hypocritical. It is essentially sending the message 'these attrocities (intimidating a civilian population, killing civilians, murders, executions ect..) are ok, because our ideology is superior to the imperialist's, and when we regain power, or dismantle them from power, things will be better."

colombiano
28th February 2005, 18:29
Farc accused over murdered priest (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4124341.stm)

Church leaders in Colombia have accused the country's biggest guerrilla group, the Farc, of killing a Catholic priest who went missing two weeks ago.
Church spokesman Bishop Alonso Llano said Farc members had admitted shooting Father Javier Francisco Montoya.

He said they would not hand over his body because they had buried him.

The spokesman said Fr Montoya was shot in the western jungle region of Choco, where he had gone to celebrate a religious feast.

He said the priest's death had been confirmed by a church committee which had gone to the region to find out where he was.

The bishop gave no reason for the killing of Fr Montoya, who had been missing since 8 December.

About 60 Colombian churchmen have become victims of the country's internal conflict during the past decade.

The most prominent of these was the Archbishop of Cali, Isaias Duarte Cancino, who was shot dead in March 2002 outside the church where he had just conducted a marriage ceremony.

Correspondents say members of the Farc (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia) sometimes see the religious authorities as a challenge to the group's ability to govern areas under its control.

The Choco region is also known to be of strategic importance to smugglers of illegal drugs and weapons.



More to Come

colombiano
28th February 2005, 18:32
Government:

The constitution does provide for complete religious freedom.
Roman Catholic instruction in state schools is no longer mandatory.
A law on the freedom of cults enables new religious groups to be recognized as religious entities.
The previously mentioned 1995 "Law of Religious Freedom" seems to be elevating Protestant evangelicals to a status closer to that of Catholics.
Recent Actions:

May 6, 2003 - A Christian pastor and three others were murdered inside the Sardis Church in the town of Tierralta, Cordoba department. About 25 unidentified men entered the church and brutally murdered 80-year-old Pastor Miguel Mariano Posada and church treasurer Ana Berenice Girardo Velásquez by slitting their throats. Natividad Blandón and 17-year-old Julio Torres, were shot to death by the armed group, according to El Pais newspaper. (Compass/VOM)

April 19, 2003 - FARC guerrillas opened fire on an Easter procession in Tolima province, killing three people and injuring two others. The attack may have been prompted by the government's promise to protect citizens during Holy Week. A 14-year-old boy was killed in the attack. (BBC)

January 27, 2003 - Unidentified uniformed men stopped a public bus, singled out Rev. Jose Juan Lozada Corteza and shot him in the head. Rev. Lozada was the pastor of the Evangelical Christian Church of San Antonio. At least 72 Protestant pastors have been killed by armed insurgents since 1985. (Compass)

October 17, 2002 - José Luis Cárdenas, a parish priest in Chalán, Sucre state was shot in the head five times. Authorities believe the FARC was responsible. The same day another priest, Gabriel Arias Posada, was muredered in Anserma as he traveld in an attempt to free an official who was kidnapped by the FARC. (Compass)

September 27, 2002 - A priest and three companions were killed by known attackers are they traveled on a road in southern Colombia. (Compass)

September 20, 2002 - A Catholic priest, José Luis Arroyave, was murdered by gunmen while passing out fliers for the church in Medellín (Compass).

August 3, 2002 - Rev. Adelmo Cabrera Polanco and his son, Luis Carlos, were murdered by assassins from the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Columbia (FARC). Rev. Polanco was the pastor of Christian Missionary Alliance Church of Puerto Rico for 18 years. He had recently resigned from a government position which was said to be the motive for his murder. (Compass Direct)

Ongoing - Revolutionary Armed Forces of Columbia (FARC) have killed about 3,500 people per year in the country's 38 year old civil war. Violence has increased since February now that peace talks between the government and FARC have ended.

July 2002 - In Cali, Columbia, Father Hilario Arango was shot and killed outside a church where he had been performed evening mass. (IRPP)

Ongoing – It is estimated that in the past three years 300 Christian churches have been forced to close and 80 pastors and priests have been killed. Christianity is seen as a threat to armed guerrilla groups because those who embrace Christianity condemn the violence used by such groups and refuse to be involved with them.

May 2, 2002 - A church in Bojayá, Chocó was bombed by guerrillas, resulting in the death of 117 people. (Compass)

April 28, 2002 - Juan Carlos Villegas, Associate Pastor of the Family Christian Church in Medellin, was kidnapped and held for 12 days by ELN guerrillas who wanted to extort ransom money from his church. He was eventually miraculously released in exchange for a Bible. (Compass)

April 7-8, 2002 - Car bombs in Villavicencio and Puerto Asis killed over a dozen people, including several members of Assembly of God churches in the two towns. The culprit and motive are unknown. (Compass)

April 6, 2002 - Catholic priest, Juan Ramon Núñez was shot to death as he celebrated Mass in his church at La Argentina. Two other Catholic priests were also abducted on the same day. (Compass)

March 16, 2002 - A Catholic Archbishop, Isaias Duarte Cancino, was murdered outside of a church in Cali after conducting a wedding ceremony. Duarte's friends suspect members of a guerrilla groups carried out the killing, as the Archbishop often condemned both the FARC and the ELN. (ANS)

February 28, 2002 - Bernardo Urrego Osorio was murdered near his home by FARC guerrillas, possibly in retaliation for his refusal to aid the guerrillas. Mr. Osorio was a member of the San Vicente Christian & Missionary Alliance Church. (Compass)

February 27, 2002 - Pastor Hector Peña of the United Pentecostal Church of San Vicente de Caguán was murdered by unknown assailants. The reason for his murder is unclear. (Compass)

February 2002 - US missionaries were warned by the US Embassy to take special precautions against guerrilla attacks by staying away from rural areas outside of Colombia's major cities. It was also reported that FARC guerrillas issued a statement that Christian evangelicals would be considered military targets. This action may have stemmed from a political rally in which a particular evangelical organization supported presidential candidate Alvaro Uribe Vélez, a staunch opponent of the guerrilla groups.

October, 2001 – Three American missions, kidnapped in 1993 in Panama, were confirmed by New Tribes Mission to have been murdered by their abductors when Colombian troops closed in. (NTM) The case of Dave Mankins, Rich Tenenoff and Mark Rich is being pursued by both the Colombian government and the FBI.

August 25, 2001 – A Christian pastor, Guillermo Leon Hernandez Gutierrez, was murdered by two men on a motorcycle, in the city of Cali. A former narco-trafficker, he became a Christian in a United States prison, and returned to Columbia to found the Genesis Christian Church in the neighborhood of Alfonso López, in Cali. (Compass)

August 12, 2001 – Pastor Enrique Gomez was released unharmed on August 11 from the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Columbia after being held hostage for six months (See February 14, 2001). Although he lost 44 pounds and was moved to 10 different locations he told his church on August 12, “I’m very happy because God kept my health and helped me to get here.”

June 17, 2001 – Joni Palacio, an active youth worker with the Inter-American Church was shot to death.

June 8, 2001 – The 22-year-old son of Pastor Ederino Renteria was found murdered after having been kidnapped. The rapid growth of his church may have been a reason for the murder.

February 14, 2001 – A prominent Colombian pastor who operates several evangelical Christian radio stations throughout the country was kidnapped in Apulo. Jorge Enrique Gómez was forcibly abducted by unidentified men who are probably related to the FARC.

December 1, 2000 – Three church members were murdered by ultra-rightists in a town near Medellin. Apparently the three were formerly sympathizers of an insurgent group. The church’s pastor and his family have been forced into hiding.

September 4, 2000 – Catholic priest, Gerardo Sanin, was released by FARC rebels. He had been kidnapped on August 30 in a town just north of Bogotá.

September 2, 2000 – Pastor Evelio García of the Evangelical Missionary Union was released after agreeing to pay FARC rebels $2500 in ransom money. Pastor García and three other people were kidnapped on August 27 in La Pintada, northwest Colombia. All have been released since paying a ransom.

May 24, 2000 – An Australian missionary and his coworkers were released by Colombian guerrillas. Edward Walter Smith and three Colombian coworkers were kidnapped during a church service in northern Colombia and held by the guerrillas for two weeks. Although a ransom was demanded, none was actually paid.

colombiano
28th February 2005, 18:35
COLOMBIA you must stand alone. I know MANY Colombians here and Abroad and most of them have Socialist Political and Idealogical views and NOT ONE andNOT A SINGLE one Supports ther FARC.

redstar2000
28th February 2005, 18:57
Originally posted by Tupac-Amaru+--> (Tupac-Amaru)Two of my uncles were army officers and [were] killed by these [Shining Path] Terrorists.[/b]


colombiano
I do recall within the past 2 years FARC claiming the responsability for the kidnapping and murder of a Father from the Church.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/sad/014.gif


And all you "american wannabe revolutionary" can suck my dick!

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/sleep/schla14.gif

This is getting to be a pretty good thread...all the American quislings and their supporters are crawling out from beneath their rocks. :D

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

PS: And thanks to Colombia for the background information...not that it will make any impression on the Yankee-lackeys. :)

colombiano
28th February 2005, 19:08
COLOMBIA SUPPORT NETWORK'S STATEMENT ON THE KILLING OF MONSENOR ISAIAS DUARTE CANCINO

CSN-Madison, March 17, 2002
We at the Colombia Support Network (CSN) received with shock and immense sorrow the news that the Archbishop of Cali, Monsignor Isaias Duarte Cancino, was assassinated at the door of the parish of the Good Shepard in a poor neighborhood in Cali, coming out from celebrating mass on Saturday, March 16.
Monsignor Duarte was a very fair and generous church leader. He was fundamentally important in helping CSN establish a sister community relationship with Apartado, where he was the Bishop before going on to be the Archbishop of Cali. His nobility of spirit and his commitment to peace were evident to all of us who had the privilege of meeting with him and working to establish links to promote social justice and peace in the region of Apartado. He was respectful and supportive of all who sought peace and justice, from the Patriotic Union administrators of the early 1990's through the mayoral administration of Gloria Cuartas,
to the international presence which CSN and others brought to Apartado. He continued actively to seek peace with justice and spoke out for honesty and the rule of law in his years as Archbishop of Cali. Always a friend and supporter of our organization, he will be greatly missed. CSN expresses our sincere condolences to his parishioners in Cali, to the Colombian Catholic Church, to the Colombian Bishops Conference, and to those to whom his efforts and his support meant so much in the search for peace and justice in Apartado. We call upon the Colombian government to investigate this horrible crime and bring to justice the persons who were responsible for Archbishop Duartes' assassination.

News reports of the attack upon Archbishop Isaias Duarte Cancino have noted that a priest at the parish which Monsignor Duarte was to visit on the evening of March 16 called the Cali police that afternoon requesting protective services in response to unusual movements or persons noted in the area that day. The Cali police reportedly ignored this request and sent no one to investigate or provide protection to the Archbishop, whose murder likely would have been prevented if the police had provided the requested assistance.
We at Colombia Support Network call upon the commander of the Colombian National Police, General Luis Ernesto Gilibert, to investigate this failure to respond and report to the public, including those of us from the international communiy who knew and greatly respected Archbishop Duarte, why the police did not respond and where responsibility for this failure lies. We also call upon President Pastrana to demand an explanation for this grievous failure to provide protection to one of his country’s most distinguished citizens.


Red Star get a clue buddy. ALL I am saying is that being a Colombian and knowing the people of my country that the FARC will never succeed if the violence continues against the population. I am by no means saying that they are the ONLY ones. Sure the Gov and the AUC are to blame as well.You figure of 18% seems so miniscule however when you consider Colombia is a country of over 40 million people well 18% of that is 7,200,000.00 .

redstar2000
28th February 2005, 19:23
Originally posted by colombiano
Red Star get a clue buddy. ALL I am saying is that being a Colombian and knowing the people of my country that the FARC will never succeed if the violence continues against the population.

You may or may not be right. My crystal ball has never worked worth a damn.

But you've filled up a couple of pages of this thread with reports that FARC kills preachers, priests, and even an arch-bishop.

Knowing my opinions of superstition, do you honestly expect that I am likely to find that "horrible" or "inexcusable"???

Would you like to speculate on how many priests were killed by anarchists in the Spanish Civil War?

Or why that was done?

I don't know the number (much larger than in Colombia, that's for sure!)...but I do know why: they supported Franco!

Does that give you "a clue"?

Where are the professional godsuckers always found if not on the side of reaction?

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

Ele'ill
28th February 2005, 19:33
And all you "american wannabe revolutionary" can suck my dick!

Who said this? :lol:

I didn't catch it through the generally linkable articles that normally would have taken up one line but instead were pasted in their entirety taking up close to two pages of precious posting space

Although they were mildly imformative, lets not revisit that article posting event to that magnitude ever again.

colombiano
28th February 2005, 19:42
Would you like to speculate on how many priests were killed by anarchists in the Spanish Civil War?
That still does not mean that it is OK and all right to commit such acts.
Ok I understand and respect your opinion but do not agree with it.
I feel as though the REAL problem in Colombia is the US. This does not and in NO way can justify acts commited by the FARC , AUC , ELN,former M-19 or even the Colombian government. Murder is Murder no matter how you slice it. AFter decades of violence the Colombian people just want Peace.

Ele'ill
28th February 2005, 20:16
Exactly, Attrocities are attrocities. In terms of murder, anything less than a statistic is viewed as less horrible. This opens the door for all type of attrocities to be commited 'in the name of' and they will some how be thought justified.

Enragé
28th February 2005, 22:10
Originally posted by Anarchist [email protected] 25 2005, 01:33 AM
Ive been readin on them It seems they did alot of killing which isnt good. What are your thoughts on this group in peru?
Shining Path are a bunch of lunatic stalinist nutcases which should be shot in my opinion (the opinion of a fuckin commie). Shining Path is discrediting the revolution, so does FARC by the way, motherfuckers.

redstar2000
1st March 2005, 03:38
Originally posted by colombiano+--> (colombiano)After decades of violence the Colombian people just want Peace.[/b]

Setting aside your claim to speak for the people of Colombia, it's not going to happen...not even with an American soldier on every street corner.

If the "peace" of American tyranny appeals to you, try El Salvador...or any one of a still large but shrinking list of imperial provinces where "order" is still "maintained".

You live in a violent world...and you'd better get used to it because it's going to get a lot more violent.

For example, one of the things that U.S. imperialism would like to arrange is a Colombian invasion of Venezuela to overthrow Chavez.

Going to volunteer?


NewKindOfSoldier
Shining Path are a bunch of lunatic stalinist nutcases which should be shot in my opinion (the opinion of a fuckin commie). Shining Path is discrediting the revolution, so does FARC by the way, motherfuckers.

I try, I really do (stop laughing!) to be patient with newbies...but what is to be made of a mindless rant like this?

Shining Path, the FARC, the ELN, etc. are fighting the puppet regimes imposed on their countries by U.S. imperialism.

Perhaps they are doing "a poor job" of it. Perhaps their tactics are "self-defeating". Perhaps they really are "discrediting" the revolution.

No one else is fighting against U.S. imperialism there at all!

But we have no shortage of people who come to this board (!) and want them defeated by the present quislings and their American masters.

What kind of "communists" are these?

"U.S. imperialism is bad but the people fighting it are even worse...Long Live U.S. Imperialism!?!"

Maybe it was a mistake to change the name of this board and we should go back to the old name Che-Lives.

We're getting too many lackeys now.

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colombiano
4th March 2005, 19:27
This sucks 5 pages now they have been erased down to three. What in the hell is going on with the server??????

Colombia
4th March 2005, 19:56
How long did the hardware server crash for?

redstar2000
4th March 2005, 20:53
A couple of days at least.

Here are the posts that I made that were deleted...


I really see no difference between killing a priest and killing a banker.

True.


With this attitude Revolution will NEVER work in Colombia. My country is 98% Catholic, Religion and Their Belief in God is the ONLY thing many people have.

Just thought I would throw this quote in there as well.

"Where do the contradictions between Christian teachings and socialist teachings lie? Where? We both wish to struggle on behalf of humanity, for the welfare of humanity, for the happiness of humanity." - Fidel Castro

And to say that religion is the "only thing" that the Colombian people have is to say that effectively they have nothing!

Something that any visitor to that country can quickly confirm just by looking around.

As to Fidel...well, the man is getting old. (I know, so am I! :( ) We should not hold people in their dotage responsible for some of the foolish things they might say. When Fidel was in his prime, it's unlikely if not impossible that he ever uttered such meaningless babble.

(Note that even Marx said some foolish things towards the end of his life...he wrote a letter to some Russian agrarian reformer suggesting the possibility that Russia could "skip capitalism" -- something I don't think he ever would have done while in full possession of his faculties.)


But okay...us Peruvians and Colombians who have either witnessed or been directly/indirectly in contact with these kind of movements are not true revolutionaries...we should agree with the killings committed by SL and FARC because they are against the US...okay...maybe that is the reason why these groups are not getting the support of the people. This support which is vital for guerrilla warfare, the guerrilla fights for the people, not to simply enforce his ideology on them or else killing them...

All you're saying here is that you disapprove of their tactics.

Fair enough...where's your "better" movement?

Show me someone who's doing a better job of fighting U.S. imperialism in those countries and I'll embrace your position: screw FARC or the SL, I'll support the _____________________!

Revolutionaries are humans, not "gods". When they fuck up, they should be criticized...even harshly.

But that doesn't mean you turn around and side with the imperialists!

Ever!
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First posted at RevLeft on March 1, 2005
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No one else is fighting U.S. imperialism?
Now what do you call the EZLN? Hugo Chavez?

I call the EZLN Mexicans.

I call Hugo Chavez a left-bourgeois reformist who happens to be president of Venezuela.

To the extent and only to the extent that they resist U.S. imperialism, I support them and wish them well.

Neither have done very much...so far.

There's been no noticeable change in the class structure of either Mexico or Venezuela...so far.

And neither of them have, to my knowledge, anything to do with revolutionary struggle in Colombia or Peru...so far.


FACE IT
FARC, ELN, SHINING PATH ARE FUCKING ASSHOLES

And what's that make you?


That's the dumbest thing I ever heard

What else can you be implying? If the FARC, the ELN, and the SL are all "fucking assholes", then it logically follows you must want them to be defeated...and if they are defeated, then it logically follows that U.S. imperialism wins.

I don't think you're in any position to be calling anyone "dumb" at this point.


As Socialists we are striving for the well being of ALL men and do not accept that "Well that is life so fucking deal with it" attitude.

Well, I'm a Marxist...so I tend to pay attention to things as they are. I am not concerned with "the well-being of ALL men" but rather ridding the planet of a parasitic class of exploiters and murderers.

I figure if we can do that much, then we'll have an idea of what more is possible in the future.


Marxism is far too rigid and ONLY a guide and should NOT be taken literally.

Whenever somebody says that, everyone's skepticism alarm should start ringing immediately.

Why?

Because while sometimes that is said as a preface to a scholarly critique of some aspect of Marxist economics, historical materialism, or even "dialectics" -- almost always what is about to be said is something along the lines of...revolution is really a kind of bad idea.

We're about to be told the free market sort of works ok or maybe we could work out a deal with imperialism or capitalists are people too.

It's not Marxism as a philosophy or as history or as sociology or even as economic theory that bothers these people...it's that fucking revolution stuff that they don't want to hear!


You are NOT and never will be able to have a Revolution in a country of 40 million people with 98% of them Catholic by committing atrocities against members of the church. If this were to happen than it makes you NO better than the Imperialists for imposing censorship and law trying to take away their religious beliefs.

First you say "it can't be done". (I guess "God" will stop it from happening if the imperialists are not up to the task.)

Then you say that if it does happen anyway, it will be "just as bad as the imperialists".

Taking away religious beliefs is "just as bad" as "taking away" food, water, electricity, education, health care...all the things that most people in Colombia are deprived of by imperialism.

That's an interesting set of priorities you have there.

Under imperialism, of course, you can have all the religious belief you want.

Work and pray,
live on hay.
You'll get pie in the sky when you die.
(That's a lie!)


Originally posted by NewKindOfSoldier
...religion has done many good things in the past, and continues to do so in the present.

ROFLMAO!

No wonder you guys hate SL, FARC, and ELN so much...they're all interfering with the god racket.

Horrors!


With age comes wisdom.

Sometimes. Usually with age comes senility.


As a Colombian all I am saying is that a Revolution that takes away the people's faith and identity is destined for failure. For it to be successful the Church must be accepted by Revolutionaries.

Gotcha! Think I didn't see you slip in that "identity" word?

What you're trying to hint at is the proposition that "to be Colombian is to be Catholic" or even "to be Latin American is to be Catholic".

That's llama shit!

The Catholic predators used to work that same con on the Italians and the Spanish...but they've mostly seen through it. Even the Irish are (slowly) getting over it. In Europe, only the Poles are still being thoroughly victimized by that sleazy and cynical conflation of nationality and superstition.

There's a ways to go yet in Latin America...no question about it. But the arch-bishop of Buenos Aires has been pissing and moaning for the last couple of years about the empty cathedrals there.

Progress is being made.


And where does it say I side with the imperialists?

You haven't...so far. But we clearly have others here who want the revolutionaries to be defeated...the FARC, ELN, and SL are "worse" than the imperialists in the eyes of these people.

This thread may be entering a period of "back-pedaling" or even "damage control" now...we'll see.
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First posted at RevLeft on March 1, 2005
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You have no idea of the nature of my country. You sit back and read Marx and have no real knowledge of the problems at hand.

Yes, I "sit back and read Marx" whenever I have the chance. You should try it yourself sometime.

No, I have no "first-hand" knowledge of Colombia or Peru or most of the planet, for that matter. In comparison to the amount of knowledge actually available, most of us don't even know 0.00001 per cent.

But it's certainly clear that Colombia has a big problem if your words can be trusted...gross superstitious ignorance.

I wouldn't expect you to join up with the FARC or the ELN (you're obviously not a revolutionary)...but you could help matters by going back there and starting an "Atheist Institute" or a "Society for the Advancement of Scientific Thinking" or something like that.


Yes, Cultural Theft can be VERY dangerous and in no way can it be justified.

"Cultural Theft"?

"Dangerous" in what way?

So when the Romans stopped the Celts from practicing human sacrifice, that was a "bad thing"? Or when the Spaniards stopped the Aztecs from practicing human sacrifice, that was a "bad thing"? Or when the British stopped (partially) the Hindu practice of burning widows to death, that was a "bad thing"?

I think "cultural theft" can always be "justified" -- provided that what is being taken away is a real load of crap (which religion always is).


Don't impose your will upon others just as the Imperialists have.

Excuse me? I have "imposed my will" on no one.

But if the FARC and the ELN are striking sharp blows against superstition...that is, in my view, a very good thing and I hope they do it a lot more!


They [EZLN] are still surrounded today, but continue their righteous struggle for equal rights for the indigenous and an end to capitalism.

That's nice.

But it's not quite the same thing as Fidel marching into Havana.

I'm not "opposed" to the EZLN...I'm just waiting to see if they launch a serious insurrection or not.


FARC, ELN, etc. are actually sustaining US imperialism, can't you see?

Um...no, I can't see that at all. Have you been nipping at the "dialectics" again?


By doing this, FARC, etc. makes sure, in its own way, that people start to think "well, at least the US is better than FARC, at least there can be peace under oppression by the US, instead of war under oppression by the FARC".

Your insight is truly remarkable. *laughs*

It never occurred to me that by fighting imperialism, we "make sure" that people will "prefer imperialism" because "it's peaceful".

Maybe we could extend that principle all over the world: just submit to imperialism and peace will prevail.

That is what they're always telling us, right?

And they wouldn't lie, would they?

Well, would they???
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First posted at RevLeft on March 1, 2005
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And say whatever you want, but the core of most religions (including Islam, Christianity) is EQUALITY (all people are children of God) and love.

More llama shit!

Like many, you have a handful of "cherished quotations" from this or that "holy book" and complete ignorance of the totality of those books or how they have been implemented in practice.

Go have a look at this site and see how "loving" the "Bible" really is (and the Koran is there too)...

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.html


Why? So he can turn off his mind and obey his leaders?

Well, he's obviously already "turned his mind off" with regard to superstition...if he's going to "obey leaders", it's better to obey Maoists than arch-bishops, isn't it?

If you want an anti-imperialist revolution in Colombia, of course.


FARC is no longer an organisation with true socialist principles, it has thrown them all away in the conquest of power, and, by doing so, lost its relevance.

If FARC has "lost its relevance", then why doesn't it just "fade away"? Why are we still talking about it?

That's generally what happens when movements "lose their relevance"...people vote with their feet and, after a while, the movement dwindles into a tiny sect and ultimately just disappears into the mists of time.

Or do you wish to contend that FARC is just a "mafia gang"...that only greed is holding it together? Then why don't they act like the Mafia? They should be taking over the cocaine trade instead of just taxing it.


Superstition? Perhaps, but let people believe what they want to believe, religion can do many good things...

Name one. :lol:


Yeah and look how Cuba ended up, not exactly your workers' paradise.

No, and never could have been under the circumstances.

But they have accomplished a few things nevertheless.

Are you suggesting that the Cuban revolutionaries "should" have just stayed in the mountains and established tiny "communes"...like the EZLN?


They are driven into the hands of the US by the shit FARC does.

So you're not hoping the U.S. wins, you just think that such is the inevitable outcome of the FARC's "bad tactics", right?

Well, that could happen...you could be right. But as long as the FARC, the ELN, and the SL keep fighting against the U.S. puppet regimes, I am happy to support them and I hope they will win.

Not because I think they will establish a "workers' paradise" but because their victories will weaken imperialism.


Yeah you with your self righteous, book smart, "I know it all better than you" attitude.

Well, I am "book smart" and you're not. Thus, it's highly likely that I do "know it all" better than you.

If you're unhappy with that, then read some books and learn some things about peasant revolutions and what they're really like.

Instead of quivering in moral indignation because the FARC kills priests.
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First posted at RevLeft on March 2, 2005
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You can regurgitate Marx all day and try your best to apply it to the situation in Colombia but have NO clue because you have never been there and seen for yourself.

So no one can say anything useful about another country unless they've "been there".

But my biggest "crime" in your eyes is obviously having the monumental gall to suggest that Colombia is not on another planet...that Marx's ideas "actually apply" even to the truly "unique" and "exceptional" land of Colombia.

Gasp! Choke! Outrage!!!

Marx's ideas apply everywhere...except in courses offered by bourgeois sociology departments.


That is IGNORANCE of monumental proportions, especially given your lack of knowledge of Colombia .

It is indeed ignorance...but not of Colombia. I thought you might want to at least help things along in a progressive direction there...clearly I was ignorant of how much you like things "the way they are".

Maybe after you graduate, you can get a job with the new arch-bishop.


I am sure the masses are going to drop everything to be at YOUR command.

I have not asked them to.

I do rather persistently (and annoyingly!) nag the masses to quit acting like sheep and get up on their hind legs like humans.

It's "a dirty job" but "someone's got to do it".

Clearly, guys like you two won't help.


You really need to do your homework on Colombia. No, I think you need to visit. Tell everyone how you are going to strip them of their religious beliefs because you think it is a load of bullshit. You would last about 15 min before someone would bust a cap in your ass.

The FARC would avenge me! *laughs*


You should really investigate this more and look at the rough figures the FARC make per year.

Since it's unlikely that the FARC makes its finances public, the only source for such "information" would be "estimates" made by either the U.S. government or by its Colombian quislings.

Neither of which are particularly well-known for their "truthfulness".

Rather the opposite, right?


Any idea where the leaders of the FARC send their children to school? They go to some of the BEST private schools in Europe. While other family members live lavishly in Europe as well.

Stale "news". The gusanos say the same things about Castro et.al.

Sure, it "might" be true...sort of. There's no reliable way of finding out.

That doesn't alter the fact that the FARC is fighting U.S. imperialism in Colombia. And Shining Path is doing the same thing in Peru.

You guys are not only not doing that...but have not offered so much as a hint about what you think "ought" to be done in Colombia or Peru.

You appear to wish that the FARC, ELN, SL would all just "go away"...and then what?

You're both just like those people who say "U.S. imperialism is terrible in Iraq...but the resistance is even worse."

Whether you feel comfortable with your position is irrelevant; you have de facto decided to support U.S. imperialism against its open enemies.

In my estimation, that makes both of you fake lefties.
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colombiano
4th March 2005, 20:58
LOL Redstar I see you have selective memory. There were several posts after your last claims.

redstar2000
4th March 2005, 21:04
And here is the post I was just about to make when the server crashed...


Originally posted by colombiano+--> (colombiano)Simply pointing out you have NO clue about the FARC and their acts in the name of Social Justice. Also that your assertions of a Stalinist State and trying to get it through your thick skull that will never work nor happen in Colombia.[/b]

Well. you've spent a considerable amount of time telling us that the FARC kills priests. What you haven't explained is why that's a "bad thing"...except a lot of drivel about how "being Colombian is being Catholic".

As to a "Stalinist State -- more precisely, a Maoist state -- "not working" or "not happening" in Colombia...I don't see why not. Material conditions in Colombia are very similar to other countries where Maoism has been relatively successful: a large and impoverished peasantry, a small urban working class, a tiny elite of what Maoists call a "comprador bourgeoisie" -- capitalists who exist as "local agents" for international capital -- and a "traditional" (corrupt) land-owning oligarchy.

It's a pattern repeated all over the world...why should Colombia be any different?

It's not communism of course...if Marx was right, communism is only possible when capitalism has exhausted its potential to further the development of the means of production.

And it (Maoism) is not even a very "good" form of socialism; approximate economic equality in a poor country means that almost everyone is poor (cf. Cuba)...just not as poor as they would be if they lived under the dominion of an imperialist country.

But the Maoists, if they win, will develop the Colombian (and Peruvian) economy far more quickly, rapidly and humanely than the American imperialists. People will be taught to read and they will get to see a doctor and they will have the chance to learn something about the real world (instead of superstitious nonsense), etc. Life expectancy will climb sharply; infant mortality will fall; clean water will become available; etc.

If China itself is any example, the Maoists will probably wipe out the drug trade in Colombia and Peru altogether...at least in and around the urban areas. And Maoism is very harsh on street crime...so I don't expect there'll be very much of it around "after their revolution".

Would I want to live in a FARC/ELN Colombia or a SL Peru? Of course not. I am a North American and used to North American standards-of-living. Maoism would seem unbearably oppressive to me.

But for the millions of truly destitute people who do live in those countries, Maoism would seem to them to be "a great leap forward" from life as lived in an American neo-colony.

As indeed, in actual fact, it would be.


True Marxism would require Mankind to take a huge leap backwards to a part of human history better known as the" Hunting And Gathering" stage.

This is what they're teaching you in your sociology department?

Obviously, they (and you) don't know Marxism from rheumatism.


How does technology fit into your practice of Marxism?

Communist society will be more "high-tech" than capitalism.


What do YOU propose as the solution for Colombia?

At the moment, the best step forward would probably be a merger of the FARC and the ELN, followed by a united struggle against the U.S. and its puppet regime.

I would concentrate especially on targets associated with the U.S. -- including American "civilians".

And keep on shooting those damn priests! :D


I am NOT a religious person at ALL.

Then, by your own logic, you are "no longer Colombian". You've "lost" your "cultural identity".

Which gives you exactly the same right to pontificate about the will of the Colombian people as I have.


Get your head out of your ass.

I could easily say the same to you.

But insults rarely do much to advance an argument.


The FARC WILL NEED TO CHANGE THEIR TACTICS. Embrace the people rather than murder and scare the hell out of them.

Well, you assert that everyone is "scared" of the FARC. I would think a lot more people would be scared of the government, its para-militaries, and the United States. All three have done a lot more killing than the FARC.

How much less killing could the FARC do and still survive as a guerrilla movement?


In my estimation you are a little high school punk who has read Marx and hold it as the be all and end all solution without any other notion or consideration of other sociological theories and paradigms.

I love it when people call me "a little high school punk".

It means that after six decades of life, I haven't "lost my edge".

Thank you! :D


NewKinfOfSoldier
You can throw those quotations at my head the same way the racist fascists do in my country, but it still wont change my mind about religion.

Some heads are just solid concrete and no amount of knowledge will every have an impact on them.

Too bad. :(


...mindlessly obeying someone else is wrong, doesn't matter who's the leader.

True...but religion says just the opposite.

And always has.


FARC has lost its relevance for the revolution because it no longer represents it, not because it no longer exists.

Well, they (in FARC) disagree with your assertion.

Maybe you should write them a letter and tell them to "give up and go home".

Just in passing, who does "represent the revolution" in Colombia these days?


Zakat in Islam (the compulsory giving of a set proportion of one's wealth to charity)...

Charity? We're talking about revolution here and you want to bring up charity?

Charity has sure accomplished a whole fuck of a lot in the Muslim world, hasn't it?

Or for that matter, the whole fucking planet.

I'd tell you where you could shove your charity...but I think you already know.


Such a revolution is not attained by military victories, but by winning the hearts and minds of the people.

That's what the American imperialists used to say about Vietnam -- "we have to win the hearts and minds of the people".

The Vietnamese revolutionaries demonstrated that the best way to "win hearts and minds" is to defeat the imperialists and drive them out!

With regard to Colombia and Peru (and many other places), it's something to think about.

A Speculation

It is possible that I was premature -- or even wrong -- in labeling you guys as "fake-leftists".

Why? Well, both of you guys are Latin Americans who now reside in advanced capitalist countries, right?

And in those countries, the "war on terrorism" is very much "a big deal".

And guerrilla revolutionaries in the "third world" are "on the list" -- officially designated "terrorist".

So...you both want to stay "where the living is easy" (or "easier") and not be deported back to your native countries -- thus you can't afford to be associated with any "terrorist" group...even on a message board.

Even if you privately hope that the FARC or the Shining Path wins, you don't dare say so. In fact, condemning FARC/ELN/SL "terrorism" is a matter of personal self-protection from the "anti-terrorist" police.

You see, over the years I've seen a few articles about the guerrillas in Colombia, Peru, etc. In fact, there's a good example in the current issue of Harper's Magazine (March 2005, pp. 20-24). These kinds of articles contain a lot of praise for the guerrillas and life in the "liberated zones"...but always seem to end with a coda -- "but then it just all turned into meaningless violence for the sake of violence, so I quit."

And it occurred to me: what else could they say that wouldn't risk immediate arrest, torture, even death?

A Colombian or a Peruvian cannot publicly endorse the FARC, the ELN, or the SL without the terrible risk of being labeled "a supporter of terrorism".

As I say, this is all entirely speculative...only if one of these guerrilla groups wins can it be shown to be true -- at least in some cases.

But it's also something for communists to keep in mind...what people say "who have been there" may not be "entirely objective".

We not only live in a violent world...but also a very treacherous one.

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colombiano
4th March 2005, 21:07
Still looks like you missed a few

colombiano
4th March 2005, 21:32
Well. you've spent a considerable amount of time telling us that the FARC kills priests. What you haven't explained is why that's a "bad thing"...except a lot of drivel about how "being Colombian is being Catholic".
Murder is Murder and in the EYES of The Masses in Colombia you know the 98% Catholics in the country ,This is unjust. Remember Liberation NOT Subjugation of the masses is what this is all about. Just because you think it is just does not make it right.
I am still waiting for that ONE example ture MARXISM that has worked !?!
As I state before Marxism is Theory and should be fluid not dogmatic.


And keep on shooting those damn priests!
Again I will say Liberation NOT Subjugation of the people. Don't impose your dogmatic law.


Communist society will be more "high-tech" than capitalism.
How please explain?


Then, by your own logic, you are "no longer Colombian". You've "lost" your "cultural identity".

Which gives you exactly the same right to pontificate about the will of the Colombian people as I have.
No , I am not religous because I choose NOT to be and that does not make me any less Colombian.And for the 98% catholics they are that because they choose to. I nor anyone else has the right to take way there belief in God whether you may agree or disagree with that. If the people ever choose to abandon the church it should be by their own will not becuase of YOUR Dogmatic Law.


Well, you assert that everyone is "scared" of the FARC. I would think a lot more people would be scared of the government, its para-militaries, and the United States. All three have done a lot more killing than the FARC.

How much less killing could the FARC do and still survive as a guerrilla movement?
Well it sure is strange that the cities have seen an overwhelming increase in displaced peasants from FARC and AUC controlled areas . Now if they are afraid of the Government then why are they fleeing to the cities? Because they as I stated before are caught in the middle. Do you remember the story I told you of Farc coming to a town then two days later the AUC arrivve, then the AUC leaves then The FARC arrive? Each time a new group comes in they make false accuastions of the people assisting the other groups and kill many in cold blood.
Simple they need to work on their image and tactics and be above the actions of the AUC and other Paramilitaties ,as I have said all along.


A Colombian or a Peruvian cannot publicly endorse the FARC, the ELN, or the SL without the terrible risk of being labeled "a supporter of terrorism".

Finally something we CAN agree on. I have Never said I supported the FARC however it is in my opinion as a Socialist and as a Colombian that to win the hearts of the masses tactics must be changed. Liberation NOT Subjugation



I wish I could find my post I wrote about the US killing 3 birds with 1 stone and their involvement in Colombia under the vail of "Narco Terrorism"



ONE LAST WORD FLUID

redstar2000
4th March 2005, 22:15
Originally posted by colombiano
Murder is Murder

No...that's simply not true.

It's a simple-minded declaration of faith that has no relationship to the real world at all.

There were actually eight (at least) attempts to assassinate Hitler.

Had one of them succeeded, would you cry "Murder is Murder"?


I am still waiting for that ONE example true MARXISM that has worked !?!

Hasn't happened yet...as you very well know.

On the other hand, Maoists have "adapted" Marxism to promote peasant-based anti-imperialist revolutions.

And those have worked. Mao and his followers won in China, Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia. They have active guerrillas in the field in the Philippines, Colombia, Peru, and Nepal. Even Cuba was actually a case of a kind of "soft Maoism".

The working class in countries like Colombia and Peru is still too small for "true Marxism" to be applicable; but the Maoist "version" has a genuine chance of winning.

No one else is even in the game.


How please explain?

You are asking me to "explain" how communism will be more "high-tech" than capitalism?

You want details???

Well, to start with, no communist or any other sensible person wants to live in a "low-tech" society...it sucks!

So are you (or your sociology professors) implying that technological progress is "only possible" under capitalism???


No , I am not religious because I choose NOT to be and that does not make me any less Colombian. And for the 98% Catholics they are that because they choose to.

So you are withdrawing that claim about "cultural identity" -- you now say that one can be an atheist and still "be Colombian".

Now, consider that "98% Catholic" group. How many of them converted to Catholicism as adults and how many of them had that llama shit shoved down their throats when they were defenseless children???

"Choose to be" my ass!


Well it sure is strange that the cities have seen an overwhelming increase in peasants from Guerrilla and AUC controlled areas .

Peasants move to cities whenever they can all over the world. As a matter of fact, by the middle of this century, the urban population will become a majority of the world's population (if present trends continue).

Rural poverty really sucks!

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redstar2000
4th March 2005, 22:20
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 04:07 PM
Still looks like you missed a few
No, all of the posts I made in this thread have now been re-posted.

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colombiano
4th March 2005, 22:33
So you are withdrawing that claim about "cultural identity" -- you now say that one can be an atheist and still "be Colombian".
Nope I am not withdrawing ANY claim. I am saying that an Overwhelming 98% are Catholic and just because you think that Religion is LLAMA Shit that you would be robbing them of their beliefs and yes that 98%'s cultural identity. You can and should be of any faith that you wish , without the threat of someone taking it away.No mention of Atheism , never said I was an atheist you are making an assumption.


You are asking me to "explain" how communism will be more "high-tech" than capitalism?


You want details???
BTW I never said how "Communism would be more Hi-Tech than Capitalism" Never said that.
But, Yes please elaborate.


Well, to start with, no communist or any other sensible person wants to live in a "low-tech" society...it sucks!
Not really ever read Walden??


So are you (or your sociology professors) implying that technological progress is "only possible" under capitalism???
Nope , Just want to know how it fits in from your viempoint?


Now, consider that "98% Catholic" group. How many of them converted to Catholicism as adults and how many of them had that llama shit shoved down their throats when they were defenseless children???

In the same way you wish to snatch it (Religion) out of their mouth and shove hardcore Marxist DOGMA down their throats?


Peasants move to cities whenever they can all over the world. As a matter of fact, by the middle of this century, the urban population will become a majority of the world's population (if present trends continue).
True but not in the amount they have in recent years . The life of the campesinos who have lived in the rural plains or jungles is far better than that in the cities where they are now if it was NOT for the tactics of the groups in question. They are living in cardboard boxes in the streets sniffing glue to push off hunger. DO you think that is better than the way they could have lived in the countryside had there been a peacful life for them there??


Liberation NOT Subjugation

redstar2000
5th March 2005, 00:30
You are no longer even trying to argue seriously, colombiano...just changing your views with each post.

First you say that you're "not religious", then you say that you're "not atheist", then...???

First you say that Catholicism is part of "Colombian cultural identity", then you admit that it's not in your case, and then you go back and say that it is again...and what will you say next?

First you say that communism means a retreat to primitivism, then -- after I correct you -- you deny that you ever said that...and who knows what you'll come up with next?

And then you imply a favorable reference to Waldon Pond...that piece of rural idiocy by Thoreau -- about as relevant to this thread as George Bush's shit-stained underwear.

The worst, of course, is that you actually equate liberating people from superstitious folly to the act of forcing superstition down people's throats when they are children and have no intellectual defenses against their parents.

Go apply for that job with the arch-bishop while it's still available. :angry:

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colombiano
5th March 2005, 01:27
You are no longer even trying to argue seriously, colombiano...just changing your views with each post.
Sorry But I have been consistant. I have stated over and over again that I felt the problem in Colombia was the US. I also stated that I felt that there needs to be change there however I did not feel as though the FARC were taking the correct measures to win over the masses. I since went on to state that HardLine Marxism would NOT work in COlombia because of it's intolerance to the People's Faith. Thus I have given my conclusion for social justice to take place in Colombia Marxism should NOT be applied so Literally and should be used more as a guidline or "fluidly". I have been consistant so stop using the "He's Flip Flopping" you sound a little like George W Bush.

First you say that you're "not religious", then you say that you're "not atheist", then...???
Agnostic, there is a difference Look it up!

First you say that Catholicism is part of "Colombian cultural identity", then you admit that it's not in your case, and then you go back and say that it is again...and what will you say next?
I have always maintained that it is a part of Cultural Identity with the 98% of catholics. I have also said it would be unjust for me or anyone else to take that from them and force feed them the Atheism you wish to.

First you say that communism means a retreat to primitivism, then -- after I correct you -- you deny that you ever said that...and who knows what you'll come up with next?
Now you are just putting words into my mouth.I stated that I thought for traditional hard line Marxism man would need to take this step. I have asked you how the new world fits into your dogma. I NEVER DENIED ANYTHING! I want you to tell me since you are the EXPERT on Marxism.

And then you imply a favorable reference to Waldon Pond...that piece of rural idiocy by Thoreau -- about as relevant to this thread as George Bush's shit-stained underwear.
You said" living in a society without technology would suck and who would want to do it?!?" Just pointing out that you were making yet another assumption. Actually it is Walden , and as I recal back in High School it was very good read. You should try reading something besides Marx.


The worst, of course, is that you actually equate liberating people from superstitious folly to the act of forcing superstition down people's throats when they are children and have no intellectual defenses against their parents.
Again this is your opinion. You are wanting to apply Marxism far to literally . It is Theory and should be fluid.
What part of this do you NOT understand Liberation NOT Subjugation

Colombia
5th March 2005, 01:58
Colombiano, I must ask you of your political views. In my opinion you seem to still have some hope for capitalism and are thus a reformist. This isn't bad, seeing that you beleive that you can help people still living under capitalism, but our views and the views of reformists are quite different.

So are you a reformist?

colombiano
5th March 2005, 02:13
So are you a reformist?
No , I believe that Marxism should be applied Fluidly. I really admire what Fidel has done in Cuba in regards to religion. The people there are still able to practice their faith while maintainig a communal sense as a people.

Colombia
5th March 2005, 02:16
But Colombiano, do you not beleive that the Colombian military and their paramilitary counterparts have not killed members of the church for their own benefit as well if not more?

colombiano
5th March 2005, 02:22
But Colombiano, do you not beleive that the Colombian military and their paramilitary counterparts have not killed members of the church for their own benefit as well if not more?
Yes I know this for a fact as well the governemnt is strife with corruption and the AUC well look what happened to Carlos Castano. However I think my thread was lost. I stated that the FARC needed to bring themselves "ABOVE"or" prove themselves better" than the AUC and government in this regards.

Colombia
5th March 2005, 02:30
But what of those in the church working with the government? Must they not be supressed? I'm sure the FARC would have a valid excuse for kidnapping priests right? How many priests have supposedly been kidnapped anyway?

colombiano
5th March 2005, 02:38
But what of those in the church working with the government? Must they not be supressed? I'm sure the FARC would have a valid excuse for kidnapping priests right? How many priests have supposedly been kidnapped anyway?
I know you have to basically fight with one hand behind your back.The struggle is already an uphill battle . Adding the church into this only complicates it more.PLEASE TELL ME How do you honestly expect Colombian to support such acts given their extreme faith??
As for the figures they were in a previous post. LEt me ask you when was the last time you were in Colombia? Of the Colombian you know what is the general consensus on the FARC?

rice349
5th March 2005, 02:46
Perhaps the people of Colombia could be freed from their reliance of religion if a more humane system were in place. I'm from Gori, Georgia (the republic not the United State) and especially after the fall of the Soviet Union the reactionary Russian Orthodox Church was heavily re-established as well as other fascist religious factions. Plain and simple religion is superstition and garbage. The people of Colombia can be freed from Jesus Christ's iron grip through scientific reason and logic. The average Colombian (from what i've experienced) is being denied first-rate education due to a system that is totally neglecting and exploiting them. If FARC sees to it that they free their comrades from the fierce grip of religion by kidnapping some priests then so be it.

By the way, like any other nation, if you ask a Colombian what he/she thinks about the FARC it will great depend on a) what personal experience they've had with any encounter with it, b) their own personal ideology, c) how much they actually know compared to what they're being told, and d) what economic class they belong to.


PLEASE TELL ME How do you honestly expect Colombian to support such acts given their extreme faith??

How could the good people of Colombia have so much faith in a religion that is so guilty of sooo many hundred of thousands of crimes against humanity? And just so you know I am in no way intending to sound condescending to the Colombian people on their religiousness. It's just a lack of appropriate education and resources.

Colombia
5th March 2005, 02:46
They won't but many don't support communism simply because of the cold war and US propaganda and it is pretty difficult to change public opinion.

I was last in Colombia two years ago. Most Colombians do not favor the FARC but like I said before they lack the knowledge to change their views other than what the government tells them.

colombiano
5th March 2005, 02:50
They won't but many don't support communism simply because of the cold war and US propaganda and it is pretty difficult to change public opinion.



Agreed then we get back to the tactics of the FARC. This is a very delicate situation. You could compare it to woman. You beat the shit out of her and she wil resent you. But if you smooth talk the shit out of her and treat her right she will do anything for you.
:)

colombiano
5th March 2005, 02:53
sorry pasted wrong post. Anyway I think for the FARC to make advancements it all comes down to tactics.

Colombia
5th March 2005, 02:58
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 02:50 AM

They won't but many don't support communism simply because of the cold war and US propaganda and it is pretty difficult to change public opinion.



Agreed then we get back to the tactics of the FARC. This is a very delicate situation. You could compare it to woman. You beat the shit out of her and she wil resent you. But if you smooth talk the shit out of her and treat her right she will do anything for you.
:)
How will the FARC ever get public support while the conservatives are in power? They tried that with the UP but you and I remember what happened to them right?

colombiano
5th March 2005, 03:04
First they need to clean up their image within the country, build support. Do you think it is possible for them to gain power in the same way Chavs has?

Colombia
5th March 2005, 03:10
No I don't think so. How can they clean up their image? It already failed with the UP. The Colombian government constantly makes propaganda about them. There are even reports of paramilitaries killing civilians and dressing them up in FARC clothing!

colombiano
5th March 2005, 03:13
No I don't think so. How can they clean up their image? It already failed with the UP. The Colombian government constantly makes propaganda about them. There are even reports of paramilitaries killing civilians and dressing them up in FARC clothing!
I am truly torn. I want social justice for our people so desperately however I do NOT think they should be force fed Atheism nor do I think they should be stripped of their religous beliefs.

Colombia
5th March 2005, 03:15
Is social justice not better than living with freedom of religion?

colombiano
5th March 2005, 03:21
No, that is my main gripe with Marxism. Revolution should result in the freedom of people and granted many may view the church as an oppressor it should not be taken from the people rich and poor that hold it dear.Which is what Marxism dictates.To liberate the people is not to take or steal something from them and impose your own dogmatic law . As I have said a Million time Liberate Not Subjugate.

Colombia
5th March 2005, 03:25
Religion is more important than social justice!

Are you mad?

colombiano
5th March 2005, 03:26
Religion is more important than social justice!

Are you mad?
What good is Social Justice if you imprison the very people you are suppose to be freeing??
Liberate Not Subjugate

Colombia
5th March 2005, 03:39
Imprison them? es el contrario Colombiano. Religion restricts them into following only things in the way the church sees it.

colombiano
5th March 2005, 16:02
Imprison them? es el contrario Colombiano. Religion restricts them into following only things in the way the church sees it.
And forcing them to abandon the church for your Dogma does not do the same?You are not "FREEING" anyone by taking away one set of Dogma and imposing another on them.
















Liberate Not Subjugate

redstar2000
22nd March 2005, 18:01
Originally posted by Inti
I hope that SL and all Senderistas will get shot and die a long and painful death. They have killed lots of my wife's relatives who are from Ayacucho.

Indeed. Well, here's what Shining Path has to say about Ayacucho...


The government also pushes for plans of free labor and more "aid" with the direct ideological, political and organizational participation of the reactionary Catholic Church, which is playing a counterrevolutionary role in the People's War. In some regions of the jungle and in Ayacucho, for example, there are priests that train and lead the Army's paramilitary rondas. Among these paramilitary priests the most notorious is the archbishop of Huamanga "Cristiani" of Opus Dei, and the infamous U.S. born killer-priest known as "father Mariano."

http://www.blythe.org/peru-pcp/intro/intro1.htm

It would seem that things are somewhat more "complicated" in Ayacucho than you led us all to believe.

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Latin America
23rd March 2005, 01:48
It is funny but a lot of my posts are gonne? even the Bolivia thread? is this normal? or should I open a new one?

A lot of my posts here in shining path are gone too!!! :unsure:

redstar2000
23rd March 2005, 02:18
When the server was taken down, it was discovered that the hard drive was corrupted...and everything posted after March 5th was lost. :(

So yes, if you want to resume a discussion that you began and the thread itself is gone, you'll have to start a new one.

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refuse_resist
23rd March 2005, 07:49
The Shining Path and Fuerzas Armadas Revolutionarias de Colombia - Ejercito del Pueblo (FARC-EP) are true revolutionaries who are fighting for the cause of the poor and working class. The imperialists delibratley try to misinform people about them and spread lies that they are nothing more than "terrorist" and "drug smugglers" which is absolute b.s. It is well known that these puppet governments that are lackeys to the imperialist ship drugs and in return receive American-made weapons and funding to fight against any type of left-wing revolutionary group that takes up arms to overthrow these regimes who do the bidding of Washington.

Latin America
23rd March 2005, 23:01
:)

Inti
25th March 2005, 04:51
Originally posted by redstar2000+Mar 22 2005, 07:01 PM--> (redstar2000 @ Mar 22 2005, 07:01 PM)
Inti
I hope that SL and all Senderistas will get shot and die a long and painful death. They have killed lots of my wife's relatives who are from Ayacucho.

Indeed. Well, here's what Shining Path has to say about Ayacucho...


The government also pushes for plans of free labor and more "aid" with the direct ideological, political and organizational participation of the reactionary Catholic Church, which is playing a counterrevolutionary role in the People's War. In some regions of the jungle and in Ayacucho, for example, there are priests that train and lead the Army's paramilitary rondas. Among these paramilitary priests the most notorious is the archbishop of Huamanga "Cristiani" of Opus Dei, and the infamous U.S. born killer-priest known as "father Mariano."

http://www.blythe.org/peru-pcp/intro/intro1.htm

It would seem that things are somewhat more "complicated" in Ayacucho than you led us all to believe.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif [/b]
I think that the document that you have gotten your hands on is fairly old as in there it says that Fujimori is the president.

It was also said in the document that SL only killed proven enemies of the people. The husband of my friends sister wasnt involved in anything against people, he was a professional boxer and with the money he earned, he helped those in need. Also my wifes family have never been involved in any rondas, just minding their own business. The only thing I can think of that could been seen as a possible crime against SL is that perhaps they didnt want to give all their food to the SL, because they needed it for themselves to eat.

I cant be bothered to get angrier at SL now, the good news is that they are practically gone and havent been too active the past years.

Its true that Fujimori was an asshole, as was Alan Garcia and the current Alberto Toledo, and it would had been nice with a leader that wasnt corrupt for a change, but I have my doubts that I will see it happen during my lifetime. Every time I go back to Perú there seems to be more crime and more poverty and its a shame because its a really nice country and the majority of the people are nice, its just run by suckers who doesnt care about anyone else but their family, and they steal as much as they can while they are in power. If the senderistas could take the real enemy of the people, then they would have my vote. Take the government, the thieves and what have you, but leave the civilians alone. But I guess that the SL have to find their spines before they can fight like men and not just blowing up women with dynamite.


There is some articles on SL and about the conflict that were going on in Perú from 1980-2000 if you would care to have a read. Im too tired to get angry at those people just hailing SL as some kind of fucking revolutionary movement. They are terrorists, basta ya!

Ideele Revista del Instituto de Defensa Legal (http://www.idl.org.pe/idlrev/revistas/157/indice.htm)


La CVR estima que la cifra más probable de victimas fatales de la violencia es de 69.280 personas. Estas cifras superan el número de pérdidas humanas sufridas por el Perú en todas las guerras externas y guerras civiles ocurridas en sus 182 años de vida independiente. (2003)


Para la CVR, el PCP-SL fue el principal perpetrador de crimenes y violaciones de los derechos humanos, tomando como medida de ello la cantidad de personas muertas y desaparecidas. Fue responsable del 54 por ciento de las victimas fatales reportadas a la CVR. Esta cuota tan alta de responsabilidad del PCP-SL es un caso excepcional entre los grupos subversivos de America Latina y una de las singularidades mas notorias del proceso que le ha tocado analizar a la CVR


La CVR encuentra asimismo un potencial genocida en proclamas del PCP-SL que llaman a "pagar la cuota de sangre"(1982), "inducir genocidio" (1985) y que anuncian que "el triunfo de la revolución costará un millón de muertos" (1988). Esto se conjuga con concepciones racistas y de superioridad sobre pueblos indígenas.

Also a little bit about "La madre coraje, Maria Elena Moyano" that was assasinated by SL

http://www.yachay.com.pe/especiales/moyano/IMAGENES/PRINCIPA.JPG

http://www.yachay.com.pe/especiales/moyano/IMAGENES/REUNION2.JPG

http://www.yachay.com.pe/especiales/moyano/IMAGENES/FOTO.JPG

La Madre Coraje - Maria Elena Moyano (http://www.yolisala.8m.com/moyano.html)

EL ASESINATO DE LA MADRE CORAJE (http://www.yachay.com.pe/especiales/moyano/ASESINA.HTM)

American_Trotskyist
27th March 2005, 23:23
As Red has already pointed out, for all we know your sisters friends could have had it comming to them. That kid who was posting on this, Tupac, said his uncle was an OFFICER in the army. Need we say more? I am sure as hell not a Maoist, I hate that regergitated Stalinist crap very much, but you sit their condoning American Imperialism, when even Stalinism is, by very little, better. Why don't you tell us what your sisters friends do, then we can be sure of what is going on? I hate all of these little liberal kids craping on Che's legacy, as COMMUNIST, by using his face and words while condeming the people he would support. Che was not a peaceful guy and I doubt he would have cared about a few dead army officers or landlords. Che Guevara was a miliant person, he wasn't a person who would have supported the Catholic Church or the American Puppet governments. By the way, Sendero Luminoso wasn't a genuine Marxist revolutionary force, they were petty bourgeois reactionary peasants. Had they been actual Marxist who followed a Leninist programme, the revolution would have been quick and within the cities, with the workers.

Tupac-Amaru
28th March 2005, 19:51
LoL, im not a kid...*****.

And the fact that my uncles were officers has nothing to do with it...the SL killed everyone...including working-class soldiers and peasants.

Inti
28th March 2005, 20:16
Well then mr Trotskyist, I guess that anyone living in Peru while the Senderistas had it coming for them. I guess you would have changed your opinion if you had to live with the terror every day. The SL were a rabid group of loonies that liked blowing people up with dynamite as they did with Moyano after first blowing her to smithereens with shotguns in front of kids, then stuffing her with dynamite and blowing her to bits with dynamite.

Latin America
28th March 2005, 21:11
Tupac-Amaru Posted on Mar 28 2005, 07:51 PM
LoL, im not a kid...*****.

And the fact that my uncles were officers has nothing to do with it...the SL killed everyone...including working-class soldiers and peasants.


Hey mano porfavor no uses malas palabras si no las nesesitas, you know Che history rigth? the Sendero killed everyone? How old are you Tupac? Where do you live exactly?

Latin America
28th March 2005, 21:19
Inti Posted on Mar 28 2005, 08:16 PM
Well then mr Trotskyist, I guess that anyone living in Peru while the Senderistas had it coming for them. I guess you would have changed your opinion if you had to live with the terror every day. The SL were a rabid group of loonies that liked blowing people up with dynamite as they did with Moyano after first blowing her to smithereens with shotguns in front of kids, then stuffing her with dynamite and blowing her to bits with dynamite.


You know Inti I would like for you to tell stories about the Peruvian government with the same charisma yo do about Sendero Luminoso.

Tupac-Amaru
28th March 2005, 21:41
Originally posted by Latin [email protected] 28 2005, 09:11 PM
you know Che history rigth? the Sendero killed everyone? How old are you Tupac? Where do you live exactly?
Yes i know "Che history"
Yes the SL did kill a lot of people
Im 18, how old are you?
You want to know exactly?? I Live in LIMA, PERU!! Sorry i couldnt be more exact, but i dont want to give my exact adress to some puto cabron who supports the SL and who i dont even know!

Inti
29th March 2005, 00:07
Originally posted by Latin [email protected] 28 2005, 10:19 PM

Inti Posted on Mar 28 2005, 08:16 PM
Well then mr Trotskyist, I guess that anyone living in Peru while the Senderistas had it coming for them. I guess you would have changed your opinion if you had to live with the terror every day. The SL were a rabid group of loonies that liked blowing people up with dynamite as they did with Moyano after first blowing her to smithereens with shotguns in front of kids, then stuffing her with dynamite and blowing her to bits with dynamite.


You know Inti I would like for you to tell stories about the Peruvian government with the same charisma yo do about Sendero Luminoso.
Well comrade, I probably would if the government killed my wifes family for nothing. But history says that SL was the guilty ones, I have many more family storys about SL. For example her primo who was playing outside and found something he thought was a toy.. The "toy" blew up in his hand, leaving him with only his thumb and his index finger... The thing is that it isnt really stories but rather actual things that happened..

Latin America
29th March 2005, 00:53
Tupac-Amaru Posted on Mar 28 2005, 09:41 PM
Yes i know "Che history"
Yes the SL did kill a lot of people
Im 18, how old are you?
You want to know exactly?? I Live in LIMA, PERU!! Sorry i couldnt be more exact, but i dont want to give my exact adress to some puto cabron who supports the SL and who i dont even know!


MMMM So you like to call people names? Te digo mano si sigues insulatando a las personas aqui nadie va a querer conversar contigo, me da pena que seas asi.

Colombia
29th March 2005, 01:20
Don't know much about Peruvian history but I would imagine that it is just as bad as Colombias was in regards to abusing their people in worse ways than the SL yes?

colombiano
29th March 2005, 03:53
Colombia have you visted these sites?


Colombia Journal (http://www.colombiajournal.org/index.htm)

and

ANNCOL (http://www.anncol.org/side/5)

Which has an English version as well. Enjoy

American_Trotskyist
29th March 2005, 05:17
Inti you still haven't responded to what was the original question: What did your sister's friends do? Tupac, the army is a relationship identical to the class system. Your uncle, I am assuming, was higher up in social class, right? People get higher up in the miliary, and start their rank, according to their social position. What was your uncle's rank? What do you think they sent him out on missions to do? Give medicine and food to the people? No, search and destroy, kill civilians and SL, no one can tell the difference.
Why the hell wouldn't you kill somebody who is ordering soldiers to kill your soldiers? That is the chance you take when you support a reactionary, or any, idea, to die. The soldiers not mutinying was because it wasn't a workers war, and many of the peasants in that army wanted to keep their land so they joined the reactionary side

Inti, I am not some blood thursty Maoist, but your seem to be a blood thursty capitalist. People die in war, it isn't anything romantic. You mention a child, well how about this, 8 million children die each year, a large portion in your country, because of starvation and being too poor to live. You are showing us one atrocity commited by the Maoist and then you ignor the hundred others by YOUR government. So, Peru needs a WORKERS REVOLUTION IN PERU!

Inti
29th March 2005, 07:44
Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 06:17 AM
Inti you still haven't responded to what was the original question: What did your sister's friends do? Tupac, the army is a relationship identical to the class system. Your uncle, I am assuming, was higher up in social class, right? People get higher up in the miliary, and start their rank, according to their social position. What was your uncle's rank? What do you think they sent him out on missions to do? Give medicine and food to the people? No, search and destroy, kill civilians and SL, no one can tell the difference.
Why the hell wouldn't you kill somebody who is ordering soldiers to kill your soldiers? That is the chance you take when you support a reactionary, or any, idea, to die. The soldiers not mutinying was because it wasn't a workers war, and many of the peasants in that army wanted to keep their land so they joined the reactionary side

Inti, I am not some blood thursty Maoist, but your seem to be a blood thursty capitalist. People die in war, it isn't anything romantic. You mention a child, well how about this, 8 million children die each year, a large portion in your country, because of starvation and being too poor to live. You are showing us one atrocity commited by the Maoist and then you ignor the hundred others by YOUR government. So, Peru needs a WORKERS REVOLUTION IN PERU!
You are confusing me.. :unsure: My sister´s friends doesnt have anything to do with this, they all are Swedish and live in Sweden..

You think that Im a blood thirsty Capitalist? You probably think that I have fangs also and that I go out in the cover of the night and get my victims, right? :o
Perú needs a overhaul, but it sure aint the SL that is needed. I wouldnt mind having a workers revolution in Perú, just dont kill the workers..

Tupac-Amaru
29th March 2005, 10:22
Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 07:44 AM

Perú needs a overhaul, but it sure aint the SL that is needed. I wouldnt mind having a workers revolution in Perú, just dont kill the workers..
WORD! I agree ;)



And Trotskyist, i take your point. But still, i assure you (from experience) that the SL WEREN'T the good guys. And to answer your question, one uncle was a Captain and the other other was a Sergeant, they died together...

fernando
29th March 2005, 15:12
So the SL are back, is there any new information about the MRTA? I wrote sometihng for them when I was in like 4th grade (4th year in highschool) and the info I found back then was that they killed the least civilians compared to SL and the government. They also treated most of their hostages with respect etc...

After the attack on the Japanese ambassade things have kinda got quiet around them, but are they back now? I mean SL is back again sort of.

Guerrilla22
29th March 2005, 17:58
SL is a great group. They are progressive even for a guerrilla movement. They are one of the only revolutionary movements that I know of that includes women in their leadership structure.

praxis1966
29th March 2005, 20:07
Granted I've just returned from an extended exile (haven't had computer access for quite some time) so I haven't read the whole thread, but it seems as though there are a great deal of misconceptions about Sendero Luminoso. The fact is that a large portion, if not most, of the civilian deaths attributed to them were actually due to the actions of the Fujimori regime.

It was a policy of Fujimori's military to round up rural peasants and conscript them into service in the army. They would dress them in uniforms and march them at gunpoint, unarmed I might add, and when the Luminoso guerrillas would attack Fujimori would accuse SL of murdering innocent civilians. (To address Redstar's assertion that a victory for SL would mean a defeat for U$ imperialism, this is entirely true. The Peruvian escuadrones muertos were/are trained in the U$ at Fort Benning, GA, and the most expensive U$ military base south of the Panama Canal is in the backwoods of Peru.)This is to say nothing of the fact that his regime was notorious for rounding up entire villages which may have contained one or two sympathisers, put them all on trial in front of a hooded judge without benefit of defense counsel, and execute them by firing squad all in the space of a couple of hours.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that Sendero Luminoso and Chairman Guzman were perfect, but when you consider the abject poverty that the native population (primarily Incan, whom the above were primarily fighting for) lived in you can hardly blame them. I'm personally extremely tired of so-called leftists buying into the demonization that SL suffer at the hands of the North American media. Try reading the other side of the story: Committee to Support the Revolution in Peru (http://www.csrp.org).

Latin America
30th March 2005, 00:27
Inti, I am not some blood thursty Maoist, but your seem to be a blood thursty capitalist. People die in war, it isn't anything romantic. You mention a child, well how about this, 8 million children die each year, a large portion in your country, because of starvation and being too poor to live. You are showing us one atrocity commited by the Maoist and then you ignor the hundred others by YOUR government. So, Peru needs a WORKERS REVOLUTION IN PERU!


Bravo!!!!!!!!!!!! It sound perfect!!!!!

Latin America
30th March 2005, 00:31
praxis1966 Posted on Mar 29 2005, 08:07 PM
Granted I've just returned from an extended exile (haven't had computer access for quite some time) so I haven't read the whole thread, but it seems as though there are a great deal of misconceptions about Sendero Luminoso. The fact is that a large portion, if not most, of the civilian deaths attributed to them were actually due to the actions of the Fujimori regime.

It was a policy of Fujimori's military to round up rural peasants and conscript them into service in the army. They would dress them in uniforms and march them at gunpoint, unarmed I might add, and when the Luminoso guerrillas would attack Fujimori would accuse SL of murdering innocent civilians. (To address Redstar's assertion that a victory for SL would mean a defeat for U$ imperialism, this is entirely true. The Peruvian escuadrones muertos were/are trained in the U$ at Fort Benning, GA, and the most expensive U$ military base south of the Panama Canal is in the backwoods of Peru.)This is to say nothing of the fact that his regime was notorious for rounding up entire villages which may have contained one or two sympathisers, put them all on trial in front of a hooded judge without benefit of defense counsel, and execute them by firing squad all in the space of a couple of hours.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that Sendero Luminoso and Chairman Guzman were perfect, but when you consider the abject poverty that the native population (primarily Incan, whom the above were primarily fighting for) lived in you can hardly blame them. I'm personally extremely tired of so-called leftists buying into the demonization that SL suffer at the hands of the North American media. Try reading the other side of the story: Committee to Support the Revolution in Peru.



Welcome back amigo!

Inti
30th March 2005, 01:30
Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 09:07 PM
Granted I've just returned from an extended exile (haven't had computer access for quite some time) so I haven't read the whole thread, but it seems as though there are a great deal of misconceptions about Sendero Luminoso. The fact is that a large portion, if not most, of the civilian deaths attributed to them were actually due to the actions of the Fujimori regime.

It was a policy of Fujimori's military to round up rural peasants and conscript them into service in the army. They would dress them in uniforms and march them at gunpoint, unarmed I might add, and when the Luminoso guerrillas would attack Fujimori would accuse SL of murdering innocent civilians. (To address Redstar's assertion that a victory for SL would mean a defeat for U$ imperialism, this is entirely true. The Peruvian escuadrones muertos were/are trained in the U$ at Fort Benning, GA, and the most expensive U$ military base south of the Panama Canal is in the backwoods of Peru.)This is to say nothing of the fact that his regime was notorious for rounding up entire villages which may have contained one or two sympathisers, put them all on trial in front of a hooded judge without benefit of defense counsel, and execute them by firing squad all in the space of a couple of hours.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that Sendero Luminoso and Chairman Guzman were perfect, but when you consider the abject poverty that the native population (primarily Incan, whom the above were primarily fighting for) lived in you can hardly blame them. I'm personally extremely tired of so-called leftists buying into the demonization that SL suffer at the hands of the North American media. Try reading the other side of the story: Committee to Support the Revolution in Peru (http://www.csrp.org).
Yet another Senderista,... (sigh) :( Just as you are tired of "so-called leftists buying demonization from the North American media", Im tired of people that still think that SL is the way to go..
Actually I havent heard all of that NA media stuff you are talking about, but rather first hand from families that actually have suffered from the SL. I just wish there would be some more people in here with their all senses functioning.. This isnt a game, this isnt CS, FC or any other fps, this is real, with live bullets and dynamite. People actually assassinating their fellow beings and proclaim that they are for the best of the people.. There is a lot of family members that I didnt have the opportunity to meet thanks to SL, and I know many people who have had their relatives killed by SL, but so far not one single actually have lost any member to the government violence. That is quite odd methinks.. Of course I think that the government have been very brutal as well, because there are lots of evidence proving it. As I said before, I dont like the presidents that have been and neither the one that is in power now, but its just not a reason to start killing farmers..

I went in to the page that you had a link to and they write pretty convincingly, but I have seen that one before and I dont buy it, especially not the Moyano bit. I happen to know one of her best friends and she is living here, and the reason she came to this country were.. tadadadadadadaddaaaaa! Yes you guessed right, SL wanted to have her too..

And its quite startling to read that they actually were fighting for the poor and opressed when their own tactics are to terrorise the poor, amongst others.. Its an equation I dont buy..

Latin America
30th March 2005, 02:07
La vida es hermosa, hay que disfrutarla. Hasta La Victoria Siempre Carajo!!
I believe this is your quote rigth Inti?

How can you enjoy life knowing there is so much corruption out there? Life is not so beutifuly in Latin America Inti, when people want to do something good you are suppose to let them not been agains them. Especialy in Peru where help is need it as much as water need humans. You don't see the big picture in Peru Inti you just focus on Sendero Luminoso. You can't be wining about Senderistas Inti they want a social change for Peru, what ever happens and changes Peru in a good way for everyone is 100 time better than the current situation! A Revolution is inevitable where injustice is present!!!

Inti
30th March 2005, 15:41
Originally posted by Latin [email protected] 30 2005, 03:07 AM
La vida es hermosa, hay que disfrutarla. Hasta La Victoria Siempre Carajo!!
I believe this is your quote rigth Inti?

How can you enjoy life knowing there is so much corruption out there? Life is not so beutifuly in Latin America Inti, when people want to do something good you are suppose to let them not been agains them. Especialy in Peru where help is need it as much as water need humans. You don't see the big picture in Peru Inti you just focus on Sendero Luminoso. You can't be wining about Senderistas Inti they want a social change for Peru, what ever happens and changes Peru in a good way for everyone is 100 time better than the current situation! A Revolution is inevitable where injustice is present!!!
Yes, its my quote and its my motto. Life is beautiful, its a matter of mental state. Even when I was in Mocambique the poorest people where still smiling, still happy and didnt complain, not because they had a good or bad president, but because they managed to enjoy life anyway, it was a matter of life or death for them, because if they start to be depressed and think everything is shitty, it would be the death of them, always struggling they were.
But I agree that a change in Latin America and many other continents. My wifes mother had 13 brothers and sisters and her father had 8 brothers and sisters, and the SL turned most of them up, took the children and let their children watch their parents get executed, then they took the children and they disappeared. My wifes mother saw one of the kids, some 12 years afterwards (the kid were 8 at the time he disappeared), he had escaped SL and had a family and had become religious and got to another country to escape Sendero together with his family. Another guy, the novio to my wifes mothers sister was also senderista, but the sister told him when she found out that if he wanted to stay with her he had to leave sendero and he did quit his job to be able to quit sendero without getting killed.
So if Sendero is a peoples movement and they are really good for the campesinos and as you say are very popular, why dont they participate in the elections as well instead of killing their potential voters?
I also agree that after Garcia, Fuji and Toledo any candidate would be better.. I think that Castañeda has a good chance of winning though, because he has done many things for Lima that other mayors havent. Its a bit unfair, but its a very centralized country and what the people vote in Lima more or less will be the winner I think. But for SL to have a chance of the office, they would have to have a really good profiling and not kill people, but show them that they are really for some good changes for the country.

I dont believe you in though in that you say that a revolution is invetiable where injustice present, because if you take a look around the world, there would had been a hell of a lot of revolutions if it was true.

You say I have to see the big picture? Im trying very hard and I dont really see the future for the violent part of SL in Perú. There has been various small scale attempts to coup the government or raise issues, like the one that happened in Andahuaylas new years eve, but it doesnt really bite. Though they looked like they had the support of the town and guess what, I think the reason was that those people didnt kill the civilians, but only the Police, osea the armed opposition. If SL could do that, on a large scale, I think that they might have a little bit bigger chance of winning the hearts of the people.

praxis1966
30th March 2005, 19:58
Congratulations, Inti. I applaud anyone who manages to make emotional arguments as opposed to rational ones, whilst jointly insulting people whom attempt to make arguments based in logic. You somehow managed to ignore that I was far and away not defending some of the more despicable tactics of SL.

However, I find it hard to believe that you could have possibly understood the plight of the mountainside Natives en la Peru. The vast majority of Spanish speaking people who live there can't even communicate with the people SL represent and are comprised of which results in a complete lack of understanding, so I find it hard to believe you do. It therefore doesn't surprise me that the errors of SL are all you choose to focus on. It's a bit like Ice Cube's character in the movie Boyz in the 'Hood said, "They either don't know, don't show, or don't care."

The fact is that Peruvian politics have long been tied up in race and ethnicity, much in the same way that the politcs and history of places like the U$ and South Africa have been. It's an aphartheidistic situation down there, with a historic exploitation, repression, and abuse of Natives and mestizos by the ethnically Japanese minority. It's colonialism in one of its worst manifestations so, to paraphrase Frantz Fanon, it's no surprise that as the colonist speaks, the native nods and smiles a toothy grin while slowly reaching for the machete concealed behind his back.

Tupac-Amaru
30th March 2005, 20:39
If Peru is so ethnically divided then why is the current prez (who happens to be an asshole) of native background. Toledo started off a shoe-shine-boy, and now he's become the prezident!!!! I agree that Peru - and all of S. America for that matter - has been really divided racialy. But that's starting, to change Toledo is a perfect example, he's the first ever Peruvian president not to be white.

Nowadays you'll see much more people of native descent in fancy restaurants and in the richer parts of town in Lima...cause they're finnaly progressing...and they didn't need the SL to do that.

Parix, you seem very well instructed, we can tell you've read your stuff...but i'll take it YOUVE NEVER EVEN BEEN TO PERU. In fact, im quite sure that most people who posted on this thread and who seem so profoundly pro-SL, have never been there either, and only got their facts form blatantly biased pro-SL maoist pamphlets, articles, and books. So tell me...how we supposed to have a constructive argument, if half the people are miss-informed and TOTALY of place cause they've never even been to the country at hand...and therefore not seen the SL's effects, and the current-day situation of the indian population.

fernando
30th March 2005, 21:30
he's the first ever Peruvian president not to be white

You forgot Fujimori :P

praxis1966
30th March 2005, 21:31
I don't know how many times I have to say I don't allways agree with their tactics so stop lumping me in with everyone else. Christ on a dumptruck. I must also tell you that I am a firm believer in the specificity of language. The use of the suffix -istic on the end of aphartheid was very deliberate as it allows for differences. Anyway, if there has been a change in the internal nature of Peru's political climate, I would suspect that it's due to a general shift in global politics that occured in the 1990s.

Take for example South Africa in 1991. Apartheid did not come to an end there due to the revolutionary politics of the ANC. It had more to do with the fact that the U$ could economically afford to take the moral high ground to that end. Since the fall of the Berlin Wall, it was no longer necessary to boycott Russian coal and diamonds. Thusly, the U$ could financially afford to threaten embargos. Similarly, I would wager that Fujimori saw the writing on the wall and allowed for fair elections for the first time in nearly two decades. The situations are quite analagous, though I suspect you are glossing over some of the details. I suppose it's an improvement that the natives are now free to immitate the oppressor. U$ in 1975. Bravo.

Anyhow, I will admit that I have sadly never been to Peru. I've been wanting to see Machu Picchu for some time now. And thanks for the compliment, by the way.

Latin America
31st March 2005, 01:45
Tupac-Amaru Posted on Mar 30 2005, 08:39 PM
If Peru is so ethnically divided then why is the current prez (who happens to be an asshole) of native background. Toledo started off a shoe-shine-boy, and now he's become the prezident!!!! I agree that Peru - and all of S. America for that matter - has been really divided racialy. But that's starting, to change Toledo is a perfect example, he's the first ever Peruvian president not to be white.

Nowadays you'll see much more people of native descent in fancy restaurants and in the richer parts of town in Lima...cause they're finnaly progressing...and they didn't need the SL to do that.

Parix, you seem very well instructed, we can tell you've read your stuff...but i'll take it YOUVE NEVER EVEN BEEN TO PERU. In fact, im quite sure that most people who posted on this thread and who seem so profoundly pro-SL, have never been there either, and only got their facts form blatantly biased pro-SL maoist pamphlets, articles, and books. So tell me...how we supposed to have a constructive argument, if half the people are miss-informed and TOTALY of place cause they've never even been to the country at hand...and therefore not seen the SL's effects, and the current-day situation of the indian population.




how we supposed to have a constructive argument


Yes I ask that myself!!!



Tupac-Amaru Posted on Mar 28 2005, 07:51 PM
LoL, im not a kid...*****.
And the fact that my uncles were officers has nothing to do with it...the SL killed everyone...including working-class soldiers and peasants.


or may be this:



Yes i know "Che history"
Yes the SL did kill a lot of people
Im 18, how old are you?
You want to know exactly?? I Live in LIMA, PERU!! Sorry i couldnt be more exact, but i dont want to give my exact adress to some puto cabron who supports the SL and who i dont even know!


Insulting people is not constructive Tupac Amaru.


It's funny but if I am wrong you seem proud of Toledo, Tupac Amaru. I been in Peru and that why I say SL is need it. You talk like you don't hear "Indio de Mierda" in the streets of Lima, la cremainata Peruana is use to say that. You only talk of probably "10 succesful Indigenous peruvians" How many there is in Peru?
You don't see that entires families live only in one room, kids don't even the eat the rigth amount of food they are suppose to. Peruvian dinner is pan con te or cafe, you call that progress? when a kid s sick in peru and is about to die of pulmonia or dengue, where was Fijimori or even Toledo? They don't give a fuck about the Peruvian people; as long as they get all the can (money) during power everything is perfectly fine.



Parix, you seem very well instructed, we can tell you've read your stuff...but i'll take it YOUVE NEVER EVEN BEEN TO PERU. In fact, im quite sure that most people who posted on this thread and who seem so profoundly pro-SL, have never been there either, and only got their facts form blatantly biased pro-SL maoist pamphlets, articles, and books. So tell me...how we supposed to have a constructive argument, if half the people are miss-informed and TOTALY of place cause they've never even been to the country at hand...and therefore not seen the SL's effects, and the current-day situation of the indian population


I agree some people don't know or haven't been in Peru but that's why I try to explain them what the good or bad part of it even though english is not my primary lenguage, hopefully I am doing a good job, i feel bad you think that way Tupac Amaru, i believe you are even insulting the real Tupac the way you think about Sendero Luminoso. You have military members in your family thats why you think the way you think, you scare you may loose your house beutiful house in lima? I bet you live in a nice residential zone in Peru. Only time will change the way you and Inti, I feel bad you think that way Tupac; mostly because you live in Peru and mostly because you see injustice and poverty in Peru.

Inti
31st March 2005, 02:15
LATIN AMERICA: I didnt understand that last thing you wrote in your last post. you wrote only time will change the way you and Inti?

Anyway, while I was in Peru I actually never ever heard indio the mierda being shouted at my wife or her family, perhaps we would have to go to some special place to hear that? I mean, we were all over the place and didnt get those commentaries at all. Im aware of that racism exists to a very big part, but its not that there is people standing and waiting in every corner to shout it..

Praxis: I think it would be a shame if you only got Macchu Picchu with you if you go to Perú, there is so many places that are totally breathtaking, and there is lots and lots of nice food and many other things to experience there. :)

Tupac-Amaru
31st March 2005, 11:21
Originally posted by Latin [email protected] 31 2005, 01:45 AM

It's funny but if I am wrong you seem proud of Toledo, Tupac Amaru. I been in Peru and that why I say SL is need it. You talk like you don't hear "Indio de Mierda" in the streets of Lima, la cremainata Peruana is use to say that. You only talk of probably "10 succesful Indigenous peruvians" How many there is in Peru?
You don't see that entires families live only in one room, kids don't even the eat the rigth amount of food they are suppose to. Peruvian dinner is pan con te or cafe, you call that progress? when a kid s sick in peru and is about to die of pulmonia or dengue, where was Fijimori or even Toledo? They don't give a fuck about the Peruvian people; as long as they get all the can (money) during power everything is perfectly fine.

Oye L-A, relajate tio, perdon que te insultado :unsure: .

Una cosa te puedo asegurar, YO DETESTO TOLEDO. I was just using toledo as an example of how a man that started off shining shoes has become the president.

And i never said the problem was solved...i never said that..i said things were begining to progress. Thinks are getting better, but it takes time.

Of course i heard people say "Indio de mierda", (may i remind you that I am from indian decent)...But that mentality is starting to change...let me assure that there's more than "10 succesful indigenous peruvians"...plenty more.

I have seen entire families live all in 1 room. I have seen kids with mal-nutrition. I myself have suffered from pnumonia, and i almost died cause those piece-of-shit doctors counldn't do shit about it. And btw, in dont live in a beautiful house...i live in an appartement.

What im saying is that the SL is not the solution to all the problems you just stated...had they come to power, they would have made the situation much worse. Imagine Peru as a Maoist state...it would be horrible. Exept SL wouldnt have been able to kill as many people as Mao in China did whithout totaly de-populating Peru.

Btw, LatinAmerica...de donde vienes?



Oh, and Fernando! Fuji wasnt white...he was Japanese

fernando
31st March 2005, 13:54
I know he was Japanese...but you said Toledo was the first non white president :P Sorry I felt like a smart ass!!!

Colombia
31st March 2005, 15:49
Any ties between Shining Path and FARC-EP?

fernando
31st March 2005, 16:10
I dont think so, if I remember correctly the Sl were very nationalistic in nature and not very fond of "outsiders"

American_Trotskyist
31st March 2005, 23:56
What was the name of the report that the CIA admited that SL wasn't a 'Narco-Terror'.

Latin America
1st April 2005, 01:21
Inti Posted on Mar 31 2005, 02:15 AM
LATIN AMERICA: I didnt understand that last thing you wrote in your last post. you wrote only time will change the way you and Inti?

Anyway, while I was in Peru I actually never ever heard indio the mierda being shouted at my wife or her family, perhaps we would have to go to some special place to hear that? I mean, we were all over the place and didnt get those commentaries at all. Im aware of that racism exists to a very big part, but its not that there is people standing and waiting in every corner to shout it..

Praxis: I think it would be a shame if you only got Macchu Picchu with you if you go to Perú, there is so many places that are totally breathtaking, and there is lots and lots of nice food and many other things to experience there.


I said only time will change the way you and Inti think! Sorry I forgot the word "think".

If I tell you over and over again this things is because this way I will be able to change the way you think, I believe thats why we have the power of the tongue, so we can talk. Sometimes to change things for good we have to do thing that are bad Inti, I remember long ago I though that without violence you can solve many things, I know I was too inocent back in the day but now that I think about it, I was wrong, don't get me wrong I don't like violence, I wouldn't like to see my family death or kidnapp but I have realize all this time that violence is require to make some changes, a lot of members here in che-lives said this people who died in the hands of SL had it coming, it's true. Not everybody is happy with the guerrillas, but tell me what government or group has or had full support of the people. There is millions of kids in Latin America, a lot of them sick others with no homes, some of them dedicating to steeling, you want this future for Peru?

This is very personal I remember once me and my friend were walking in a city in Bolivia and it was around 8 at night, me and him were talking about President Gonzalo Sanchez and all of a suden I see this 9 year old girl criying with an empty box of gum groso, I inmediatly ask her what was wrong, you know what she told me? She sells candy for living, crying she tell's me coulple of older kids stole all the candy and her money, it wasn't that much but for her it was breakfast, lunch and dinner. She told me she quit school to help her family. Now I ask myself where should a 9 year old girl be at 8 o'clock at nigth? She should be sleeping or at least at home, not exposing her like that, who knows someting may even happen to her. Girls like her should not be working they should be playing with dolls and going to school. You understand Inti, life is not so hermosa in Latin America.

We need a change soon, there is to many people suffering and the political way seems that doesn't work in Latin America, I believe then violence will. It's better to do something that not doing anything, SL will bring order to Peru, they will stop corruption and they will change the way Peruvian families live. Peru is a third wold country Inti, there is a lot of people who doesn't even know how to writte and read, kids working; instead of going to school, men steeling for living, I don'k think living in a room with your wife and 3 kids is enjoying life, I call that survival. I want for Peru and Bolivia and the rest of Latin America a better future, not the ones they have. Something that will make me real happy will be all kids playing together in the parks, young men going to schools instead of stealing, a indigenous men a scientist not working in the makets carrying potato bags, and abuelos getting their medical attetions.

Life is not so beutifully in Latin America and I said it and I will probably die saying this; what ever changes Latin America for good is way better than the current situation now.

Tupac-Amaru
1st April 2005, 10:17
Ahh yes!! of course!! That's what you want! :lol: And your answer is Maoism? :huh: Claro pues ahora e entiendo tio!! Matar la mitad de la Población bajo un regimen Maoista realmente ayudaría la situación de los pobres :P ...claro pues...thanks for "changing the way i think", you realy succeeded there...let me tell ya

Inti
1st April 2005, 18:02
Well I have sad news for you too Latin America.. I dont think you ever will see me in a parade cheering for the glorious PCP-SL, perhaps you think you have lost your innocence but certainly not your naivity. I think hell will freeze over before you will see a government made up of SL. SL also seem to think the solution of poverty is to kill all the poor people, then you wont have the poor. But there is just a problem with the SL strategy, if they ever take the power of Peru and the Peruvians, the only people they will be left to rule over is the SL and their survivors, and oh yes, the drug lords that gives SL their protection money.. And in order for that to happen, they will probably have to fight the forces of the US, because I cant imagine that they will let the SL be in power if not elected by the people.
And also, I dont think that you will ever change my mind about the SL. I wonder what you would have thought about the SL if they pulled out your parents and killed them before your very eyes and then took you to train you with them... Would you like them as much then? Would you love them more than your loved your family?

Tupac-Amaru
1st April 2005, 18:31
Yea Latin America!!! you talked about some 9 year old girl getting her candy stolen!!! TRY GETTING YOUR FAMILY STOLEN!!! then tell how you would feel! :angry:

Colombia
2nd April 2005, 04:12
A revolution should have the people's backing. It seems that the SL is looked down upon by the Peruians here and so I must take their side on this one. If the SL is really doing things like this, than they have lost their touch with the people they are fighting for?

American_Trotskyist
2nd April 2005, 05:16
Tupoc, go back to your Villa. He probably saw more of the working class of Latin America on that walk than you have in your life.

What is a source for that thing about SL not being a Narco Terrorist group and the CIA made it up?

redstar2000
2nd April 2005, 05:26
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 11:12 PM
A revolution should have the people's backing. It seems that the SL is looked down upon by the Peruvians here and so I must take their side on this one. If the SL is really doing things like this, than they have lost their touch with the people they are fighting for?
And if gusanos from Cuba post on this board, must you "take their side" because they're opposed to Castro and, "after all", they're "Cuban"?

The Peruvians on this board may oppose Shining Path. That says exactly nothing about the degree of actual popular support for the Shining Path in Peru.

Likewise for Colombia with regard to the FARC and the ELN.

Just because someone is from another country or has lived there for a lengthy period of time does not "convert" them into an "unimpeachable authority" on that country. They may know some things that others don't...it doesn't mean they've acquired the mantle of prophesy.

Consider these words written by the British ambassador to Russia in 1913: "The Russian people will always love their Czar."

At that point, bloody Nicholas the tyrant had less than five years of life remaining...and he didn't die from natural causes.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

Colombia
2nd April 2005, 05:39
The Peruvian communists here do not support the Shining Path and if they do not support them, I see it being highly unlikely that the common worker in Peru will much like them either.

Colombia
2nd April 2005, 05:47
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 05:26 AM
Just because someone is from another country or has lived there for a lengthy period of time does not "convert" them into an "unimpeachable authority" on that country. They may know some things that others don't...it doesn't mean they've acquired the mantle of prophesy.


That is true but they know more of the situation more at hand than you or I.

Tupac-Amaru
2nd April 2005, 09:53
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 05:16 AM
Tupoc, go back to your Villa. He probably saw more of the working class of Latin America on that walk than you have in your life.


DUDE!! we went through this allready!! I LIVE IN AN APARTMENT!!! AND I HAVE SEEN THE POVERTY! And i do dissagree with the government..... Im just trying to explain to your ignorant ass that the SL is NOT the answer to Peru's problems.

Latin America
3rd April 2005, 03:53
Colombia Posted on Apr 2 2005, 04:12 AM
A revolution should have the people's backing. It seems that the SL is looked down upon by the Peruians here and so I must take their side on this one. If the SL is really doing things like this, than they have lost their touch with the people they are fighting for?


WHAT? Come on colombia, only because this 18 year old kid writtes "SL is not the solution for Peru" you are going to believe him? I expect more from you colombia.

TUPAC



Tupac-Amaru Posted on Apr 1 2005, 10:17 AM
Ahh yes!! of course!! That's what you want! And your answer is Maoism? Claro pues ahora e entiendo tio!! Matar la mitad de la Población bajo un regimen Maoista realmente ayudaría la situación de los pobres ...claro pues...thanks for "changing the way i think", you realy succeeded there...let me tell ya




Tupac-Amaru Posted on Apr 1 2005, 06:31 PM
Yea Latin America!!! you talked about some 9 year old girl getting her candy stolen!!! TRY GETTING YOUR FAMILY STOLEN!!! then tell how you would feel!




Tupac-Amaru Posted on Apr 2 2005, 09:53 AM
DUDE!! we went through this allready!! I LIVE IN AN APARTMENT!!! AND I HAVE SEEN THE POVERTY! And i do dissagree with the government..... Im just trying to explain to your ignorant ass that the SL is NOT the answer to Peru's problems.


You don't understand shit kid, you like to call people names? I am getting sick of reading you childish shit, calling peoples names, making fun of serious stuff. Who the fuck are you to call peoples names in the first place, if there is an ignorant around; that one is you. Who is killing the inocent people in Latin America?, tell me fucking kid, presidents getting in power in the name of "democracy" and "justice", this fuckers are the ones that by not doing shit kill millions of innocent people. I bet you are a fucking pro-toledo peruvian loyal citizen, you are so proud of him you even post his name as an example, fuck you, Toledo had a doughter and he didn't even want to recognize her as his. You think is funny that litle girl got her candy stolen, trying to compare her sadness to something that doesn't even make sense, I tell you if my family gets "stolen" is not going to be by SL it will be probably by the government and especialy because the way I think!!! So fuck you!!!
If I was part of SL I wouldn't mind to shoot you ass you stupid fuck!!!





Inti Posted on Apr 1 2005, 06:02 PM
Well I have sad news for you too Latin America.. I dont think you ever will see me in a parade cheering for the glorious PCP-SL, perhaps you think you have lost your innocence but certainly not your naivity. I think hell will freeze over before you will see a government made up of SL. SL also seem to think the solution of poverty is to kill all the poor people, then you wont have the poor. But there is just a problem with the SL strategy, if they ever take the power of Peru and the Peruvians, the only people they will be left to rule over is the SL and their survivors, and oh yes, the drug lords that gives SL their protection money.. And in order for that to happen, they will probably have to fight the forces of the US, because I cant imagine that they will let the SL be in power if not elected by the people.
And also, I dont think that you will ever change my mind about the SL. I wonder what you would have thought about the SL if they pulled out your parents and killed them before your very eyes and then took you to train you with them... Would you like them as much then? Would you love them more than your loved your family?


I believe you said I haven't lost my naivety, I didn't know what it means, I look it up in the dictionary and basically you are telling me that I haven't lost my ignorance. You are rigth I will probably never see you in a parade cheering for the glorious PCP-SL only because you are sitting on your ass writting shit about SL. WTF is wrong with you Inti, who in the fuck told you SL thinks killing innocent people is the solution? Rigth there you are having the mentality of a 12 year old kid. If you worry so much about the US letting "someone evil get in power by force", why the fuck don't you tell Bush to help the millions of kids in Peru! If our own presidents give a fuck about us!!!!! It seems you wait for the moment the US sends marines to save the "poor peruvian people".Do you have real information about Sendero Luminoso having ties with Narcos? Prove it!!! If you think that by giving poor peruvian kids food for 3 days is going to help them, you are fucking dreaming, from eveybody here you are the most stubborn specimen of all, only because your wife washbrain your ass you think that gives you the rigth to come here and writte the most non-senseless shit about SL, you are the ignorant here.

This is to everybody who comes here and reads this shit to entertain himself or herself, rigth now while you are sitting on you ass there is fucking millions of kids going to bed without food, sleeping in the streets of Latin America! The new vocation of widow women is prostitution, cancer grows and there is nothing to do! Malnutrition is an every day thing! While you laugh, while you smile, while you eat, while you sleep, we in Latin America have a diferent future! So fuck you if you think not doing shit is going to help!!!
You think these two guys really give a fuck about Peru? Just by one of them saying "SL plans is to kill inocent" and the other one putting peruvian president "Toledo" as a national hero, both of this guys are just full of shit. There is Senseristas out there that could tell you real stories of how the got sadomize by Peruvian officials, it makes sence if you don't hear that shit it's because no man admits he got rape. Senderistas have to take care of their lives in order to succeed and in order to succeed for Peru they have to do dirty job,wheter you like it or not everybody does shit that is not rigth and even more where corruption is like water in a lake! In Latin America where people live in the most unhuman way there is, people will said and talk everything for couple of hundreds dollar, hunger makes you do shit like that!!! So fuck you if you think defending yourself is bad and doing things in order to survive! Human values and dignity in Peru washes away when the mitilary comes in the Peruvian area of the guerrillas, for couple of dollar they will point the rigth direction. Why? You answer that fucking question, ou are not stupid!!! This days are diferent than the past, we live in the future not the past, we need new plans new ideas.
By taking one poor child in your house and giving him food for one day is not going the help the millions of kid's in Latin America that are starving, so fuck you if you think violence won't help at all!!!! You can hate me, you can call me ignorant but you can't do shit about Peru by sitting on your ass writting shit about SL!!!

American_Trotskyist
3rd April 2005, 07:54
Yes, these two kids sit in their apartments, paid for by their parents, defending a murderous governement, FUCK THEM.

I don't look at things emotionally and I violetely disagree with SL on most of their Maoist programme and I see a different rout as better and more effeciant, but the people support SL and I will defend them to the death if the workers are there.


It is the elementary duty of Marxists to stand with the masses against imperialism and counterrevolution. Yes or no? To this the sectarian has no answer. He is too busy searching for sticks and stones to throw at the revolutionary Marxists to notice anything as trivial as the mass movement. Real Marxists, on the contrary, take their starting point from the mass movement, orient towards it, enter into a dialogue with its most advanced elements and try to win them over to a consistently revolutionary class line.
-Allen Woods, Foxes and Sour Grapes

Colombia
3rd April 2005, 08:02
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 06:54 AM
I don't look at things emotionally and I violetely disagree with SL on most of their Maoist programme and I see a different rout as better and more effeciant, but the people support SL and I will defend them to the death if the workers are there.


If the people back the SL, why have the group not gained much backing in Peru's politcal world? Also how do you know the people support SL? Are you one of the people?


It is the elementary duty of Marxists to stand with the masses against imperialism and counterrevolution.

So we should support fundamentalists, murderers, and so on just because they go against capitalism? This only makes us look worse in the common workers' eye when communists say such things!

fernando
3rd April 2005, 12:50
I think some people here feel that anything that would try to change the situation in Peru or Latin America for that matter is better what we have now, no matter what kind of change.

Tupac-Amaru
3rd April 2005, 20:04
Originally posted by Latin [email protected] 3 2005, 02:53 AM
You don't understand shit kid, you like to call people names? I am getting sick of reading you childish shit, calling peoples names, making fun of serious stuff. Who the fuck are you to call peoples names in the first place, if there is an ignorant around; that one is you. Who is killing the inocent people in Latin America?, tell me fucking kid, presidents getting in power in the name of "democracy" and "justice", this fuckers are the ones that by not doing shit kill millions of innocent people. I bet you are a fucking pro-toledo peruvian loyal citizen, you are so proud of him you even post his name as an example, fuck you, Toledo had a doughter and he didn't even want to recognize her as his. You think is funny that litle girl got her candy stolen, trying to compare her sadness to something that doesn't even make sense, I tell you if my family gets "stolen" is not going to be by SL it will be probably by the government and especialy because the way I think!!! So fuck you!!!
If I was part of SL I wouldn't mind to shoot you ass you stupid fuck!!!


Que te pasa putito? Te has moletado? Te has vuelto loco? :(

Dude, your nothing but a naive idealist!! You dont know shit. You look to me like a very very sensitive putito, you get extremely offended if i call you names and if you see a little girl get her candy stolen. Well let me tell ya cabron, Life is bigger than that, life is bigger than being called names and getting your candy stolen!!! I dont give a fuck what you think about me, i dont give a fuck if you think i live in a big house...i acctualy have and idea of what life is all about, cause ive experienced the SL puto!! I what they're really like! I know what they've done. Ive talked to villagers that were forced to grow up under their rule and let me tell you, cabron, it wasnt pretty. The REAL life in Peru is about people going through hardship every day, its about being under constant danger of getting fucking shot...by cops, or by common criminals, AND but the fucking SL.

Just cause the SL were opposed to the government don't make them the good guys. Dude, idealism doesn't get anywhere in this world. Dude, your sad descriptions of Poverty in Latin America isn't impressing anyone! Que piensas? Tu piensas que me puedes convencer tio?? Tu piensas que un Peru Maoista es un Peru con un futuro? Maoism doesnt work, Cojudo!! Esspecialy not in Latin America where they got fucking untra-sensitive, irrational, emotional, mother fuckers such as yourself! Peru doesnt need anymore bloodshed we've had enough of that shit dummass!

The way for Peru to progress is for it industrialize, for it exand it's economy, NOT by killing half the population and forcing the other half to live in fucking huts and live in a peasant society (which is what the SL wanted to do).

Pinche Puto que te pasa? You're calling me the kid? Look in the fucking mirror, you cant give a good argument about why we should support the SL, its not enough to tell us about all the fucking poor kids with no food, we've all seen that shit! Your full of idealism cabron, you feel sorry for the peasants and want a better future for them, but you have not solution. Tell me! What have the SL done that's so divine? Do you have any accounts on the living conditions of the peasants under their rule? Have you seen the masscared villages ?? i highly dought that you have cause your so sentisitive, that if you did, your face probably would have gone green and you would have started puking. Putito!! Go pick up a book and read fool!! Your all talk, but you've never looked at the facts, youve never seen how many people the SL killed.

Oh and dude, you could never be part of the SL cause they dont allow sensitive pussies like you, they only allow heartless genocidal barbarians.

And i know what your gonna reply to this...your just gonna go on for lines and lines and lines about how im a "childish" and "stupid", and how you've seen all the poverty and shit...but dude spare me, cause as i said before, i dont give a fuck what you say gusano! If experienced the SL more than anyone, more than inti, more than Fernando (who is also peruvian), and definatley more than you Puto! So get your romantic image of "the people's sturggle" out of your head hijo de puta, cause you got it all wrong...there's nothing pretty about it.

Inti
17th April 2005, 17:03
Trotskyist:

I have news for you, Im no kid and my mom doesnt pay for my apartment. I work for an NGO who helps people on a daily basis in the southern parts of Africa and I have been there too. I have seen Peru and a part of my family now is Peruvians as well, Ayacuchanos if u want to know. Have you seen me saying anywhere that I think that the government is good? Take a good look. And no, please dont fuck me, Im not gay and I have what I need already with my wife and if she would see ur dick around here and hear your talk she would probably cut it off of you and make u eat it..

Latin America:

Naive - Ingenuo... It seems like you are a brainwashed Senderista, are you sure they didnt kidnap u when u were a child or what? You sure sound like one. Yeah sure I will prove that the SL have ties with the narcos, tomorrow I will take a plane and ask them and if they say no, hey then it must be true.. Get real. Of course while Im sitting on my ass every day there is people starving, thats a reality, but I am helping people on a every day basis, what are you doing for the good of the people? Or are you just sitting down on your ass writing glorifying stories about SL? Who were saying that Toledo is a national hero? I havent seen that in here.
And also on a sidenote, I think that you have to calm down a notch because your arent helping anything either by writing fuck this fuck that fuck him fuck her fuck fuck fuck..
Also, we arent living in the future, we are living in the present. And if you like violence go hit a cop and get your frustrations out.
My wife didnt have to wash any part of my brain, I have gotten stories first hand while u seem to have been reading just propaganda about SL so talk about brainwashed my dear friend. Come again when you have heard the stories from the people and stop dreaming about that the majority of the Peruvian people are senderistas or are supporting them. You my friend are the kid. Suenas como un chivolo rebelde de quince años, gritando a todo el mundo porque estas molesto de algo. No voy a decirte que eres un huevon ignorante hdp porque estas ilusionado ahora, esperate nomas y vas a ver como son las cosas en realidad, con el tiempo hijo..

Tupac-Amaru
17th April 2005, 18:34
If ya'll want to learn more about this topic - instead of just talking BS - I suggest you read the following books:

The Shining Path By Gustavo Gorriti

Shining Path by Simon Strong

and Shining Path of Peru by David Scott Palmer

Gorriti is a very famous Peruvian journalist, and Strong is also quite reputed english journalist.

Read these books...esspecialy you, Latin America, cause you sound like you havent picked up a book in years!!!