True Heroism

[Irish_Bebop]

Is it just me, or is this one of the bravest, most chilling images of one man standing against tyranny. A symbol of revolutionary heroism at its greatest.


The Unknown Rebel (http://www.time.com/time/time100/leaders/profile/rebel.html)
http://i.timeinc.net/time/time100/images/main_rebel.jpg

With a single act of defiance, a lone Chinese hero revived the world's image of courage.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

I have always wonderd, what is he holding in his hand? :P

[Irish_Bebop]

He seems to be in a suit so i assumed it was his jacket.

[bolshevik butcher]

That's the most brave thing i have ever seen, is this from taineman spr? it's ridiculous that china will soon be aloud to buy arms from the eu again.

[Thomas]

His shopping according to most sources, and he was on his way home when he stopped. Pretty inspiring, I'd like to see a republican do that.

[Irish_Bebop]

That's the most brave thing i have ever seen, is this from taineman spr? it's ridiculous that china will soon be aloud to buy arms from the eu again.

Sad that America is still killing people, and it can go on as it chooses. :angry:


Edit: I edited the link above the pic so it now leads to A Time article from 'Time 100 - the most important people of the centuary'

[dreams are free mofo]

wonder why it is the guy was never identified

[RedStarOverChina]

Of course the guy was identified.

I have absolutely no respect for those "democrats" whtsoever. NONE. And i chose to side with the PEOPLE instead of those braindead western-democracy-worshippers.

I promise u, if u had ever read some of their writtings(not just fragments of their speech), ur thoughts towards them will change drastically.

I do not consider this heroism, for what they are trying to achieve is directly against the will and interest of the Chinese PEOPLE. Im not defending the government either. I think both are evil. But which one is more evil than the other Im not so sure about that.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 01:08 AM
Of course the guy was identified.

I have absolutely no respect for those "democrats" whtsoever. NONE. And i chose to side with the PEOPLE instead of those braindead western-democracy-worshippers.

I promise u, if u had ever read some of their writtings(not just fragments of their speech), ur thoughts towards them will change drastically.

I do not consider this heroism, for what they are trying to achieve is directly against the will and interest of the Chinese PEOPLE. Im not defending the government either. I think both are evil. But which one is more evil than the other Im not so sure about that.
Oh yeah, freedom from an oppresive reigieme, better western dmocracy than the oppressive rule in china.

[The Grapes of Wrath]

I have absolutely no respect for those "democrats" whtsoever. NONE.

Is it not possible to cite a difference between democracy and capitalism, as we see it in the West? I don't believe the Chinese people were advocating rich people with nice suits to be the only ones running to be elected as in the West. However, I don't find anything wrong with people who are calling for repersentation in their government by people much like themselves, of the same class, with the same hardships and experiences. Is not democracy's ultimate freedom choice? To choose how you wish things to be?


And i chose to side with the PEOPLE instead of those braindead western-democracy-worshippers.

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the people of Beijing, the Chinese people, step up in support of the students the first time the PLA attempted the quash the Square? Were they not blocked from their path the first time by the workers, the bureacrats, the doctors, the garbagemen or what have you of Beijing? Did not this force the PLA to move in at night in order to quell the peaceful "uprising"? Was this not the "people's" wishes as acted out by the people?

However, let's be blunt. Imagine Europe in its entirety. With all the different languages, all the different dialects, all the different customs, all the different ethnic groups, and all the population milling around ... times that number by about 3 and you get China. It has 55 different nationalities (ethno-linguistic families if you will). It has Han, it has Manchus, it has Cantonese, it has Hmong, just to name a few.

With all this difference, could democracy even be founded in China? It has worked in India, but have they not a system inherited from the British? and with support from the British? China would have to start at square one. Chinese revolutionaries of the past advocated the use of the strong party to modernize the nation, to bring it into the future ... before an attempt at democracy could be made. Sun Yat-sen comes to mind in this regard.

So, the stability of China now, under oppression? Or the possible instable chaos that may arise from a newly "freed" China? A difficult question with a difficult answer.

Anyway, back to the subject ... that is probably one of the most brave, profound, and moving pictures that I can think of. You can't look at it and not feel something, a flood of emotions. So YES! That is one of the bravest acts I have ever seen. A revolutionary? Yes. It seems a shame that his revolution may never take form ... but not for the lack of trying.

TGOW

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 02:08 AM
Of course the guy was identified.

I have absolutely no respect for those "democrats" whtsoever. NONE. And i chose to side with the PEOPLE instead of those braindead western-democracy-worshippers.

I promise u, if u had ever read some of their writtings(not just fragments of their speech), ur thoughts towards them will change drastically.

I do not consider this heroism, for what they are trying to achieve is directly against the will and interest of the Chinese PEOPLE. Im not defending the government either. I think both are evil. But which one is more evil than the other Im not so sure about that.
Extremely boring. Nobody asked you for your political opinion. This was about bravery.

[Reuben]

no it was about what bebop called 'revolutionary heroism'. if you think that it worth assessing 'moral virtues' such as bravery and herioosm can be assessed in an apolitical context your wrong

[SpeCtrE]

I don't know. He might have been a nut, you know,

[RedStarOverChina]

Extremely boring. Nobody asked you for your political opinion. This was about bravery.
GEEZ! Hitler was brave! Bush was brave! Why dont u go flatter them

[RedStarOverChina]

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the people of Beijing, the Chinese people, step up in support of the students the first time the PLA attempted the quash the Square? Were they not blocked from their path the first time by the workers, the bureacrats, the doctors, the garbagemen or what have you of Beijing? Did not this force the PLA to move in at night in order to quell the peaceful "uprising"? Was this not the "people's" wishes as acted out by the people?


It was NOT the wish of the people! Its a small group of half-illiterate "intellegentias" going against the interest of the people!

U should go to Chinese and ask wht they think of them: i would be amazed if 5 out of a hundred Chinese u interview would speaks positively about them.

Ok, have ANYONE of u read their writings? why do u support them if u know nothing about them?

[bolshevik butcher]

What about all the communists, and workers present at taineman spr, china's communist in name only.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 09:30 PM

Extremely boring. Nobody asked you for your political opinion. This was about bravery.
GEEZ! Hitler was brave! Bush was brave! Why dont u go flatter them
I bet my life on it that Hitler and Bush wouldn't have the guts to do the same.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 09:33 PM

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the people of Beijing, the Chinese people, step up in support of the students the first time the PLA attempted the quash the Square? Were they not blocked from their path the first time by the workers, the bureacrats, the doctors, the garbagemen or what have you of Beijing? Did not this force the PLA to move in at night in order to quell the peaceful "uprising"? Was this not the "people's" wishes as acted out by the people?


It was NOT the wish of the people! Its a small group of half-illiteare "intellegentias" going against the interest of the people!

U should go to Chinese and ask wht they think of them: i would be amazed if 5 out of a hundred Chinese u interview would speaks positively about them.

Ok, have ANYONE of u read their writings? why do u support them if u know nothing about them?
Weird. They flashed with Mao's little red books and sang the Internationale.

Why would any Chinese speak in favor. Number one; saying stuff like that is met with punitive actions by the Chinese state. Number two the Chinese government spreads lies about the event.

That argument has as much ground as: ask any European what he thinks of Communism. I would be amazed if 5 out of hundred European u interview would speak positivly about them.

Do I support them?

[RedStarOverChina]

What about all the communists, and workers present at taineman spr, china's communist in name only.

There are good ones, but they were used by the Bourgeoise "democats(backed by CIA)" to fulfill their own gains.

[QUOTE]I bet my life on it that Hitler and Bush wouldn't have the guts to do the same. [QUOTE]

Hitler was a soldier in WWI. That was his JOB. The point being, I can be both brave and a fascist. Does being brave help justify me being a fascist?

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by The Grapes of [email protected] 25 2005, 04:44 PM
However, let's be blunt. Imagine Europe in its entirety. With all the different languages, all the different dialects, all the different customs, all the different ethnic groups, and all the population milling around ... times that number by about 3 and you get China. It has 55 different nationalities (ethno-linguistic families if you will). It has Han, it has Manchus, it has Cantonese, it has Hmong, just to name a few.

With all this difference, could democracy even be founded in China? It has worked in India, but have they not a system inherited from the British? and with support from the British? China would have to start at square one. Chinese revolutionaries of the past advocated the use of the strong party to modernize the nation, to bring it into the future ... before an attempt at democracy could be made. Sun Yat-sen comes to mind in this regard.
You bring up some good arguments. However, i do believe that China is more homogeneous than you think. 93% of the population is Han, leaving 7% to other ethnic minorities. Sure, out of a population of 1.3 billion, 7% of that is still a heck of a lot of people, but the fact is that the overwhelming majority is Han. As to diversity conflicting with democracy, look at Switzerland. It is a very ethnically diverse country, but they have a great economy, even if it is based on clocks and their banks.

[Irish_Bebop]

One thing i think China must never do, is embrase a free-market system. Not at first at least. Think about it, 90% of China's population is still peasant based, and if globalisation were to rear its ugly head, these 900 million+ people would go the same way as farmers in the rest of the third world. American farm subsidies alone would kill them.

Change is deffinantly needed though, China's human rights record is abhorent!!!!!!!!!
Any other country and it would be out in the international cold right now. Systematic torture and imprisonment af disidents, and its treatment of Tibet- the silence of the international community on this topic is disgusting. are all reasons for why China desperately needs change!!! They stopped being communist ever since Mao deitised (is that the correct term? - made himself into a God) himself. It has some very worthwhile systems in place, but its corrupt, morally and internally! :angry:

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 09:45 PM
[quote]What about all the communists, and workers present at taineman spr, china's communist in name only.

There are good ones, but they were used by the Bourgeoise "democats(backed by CIA)" to fulfill their own gains.


I bet my life on it that Hitler and Bush wouldn't have the guts to do the same. [QUOTE]

Hitler was a soldier in WWI. That was his JOB. The point being, I can be both brave and a fascist. Does being brave help justify me being a fascist?
Who talked about justification for anything?

Hitler was a fascist, but nonetheless a powerfull speaker. Do I justify him if I notice that he is a powerfull speaker? I simply noticed the bravery of the mister.

Pull your head out of your ass, boy.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by Non-Sectarian Bastard!@Feb 26 2005, 09:45 AM

[QUOTE]What about all the communists, and workers present at taineman spr, china's communist in name only.

There are good ones, but they were used by the Bourgeoise "democats(backed by CIA)" to fulfill their own gains.


I bet my life on it that Hitler and Bush wouldn't have the guts to do the same. [QUOTE]

Hitler was a soldier in WWI. That was his JOB. The point being, I can be both brave and a fascist. Does being brave help justify me being a fascist?
Who talked about justification for anything?

Hitler was a fascist, but nonetheless a powerfull speaker. Do I justify him if I notice that he is a powerfull speaker? I simply noticed the bravery of the mister.

Pull your head out of your ass, boy.
Buegoirse democrats are much better than the tyranny of the chinese government.

[Jina]

Originally posted by Chinghis Khan+Feb 25 2005, 10:29 PM--> (Chinghis Khan @ Feb 25 2005, 10:29 PM)
The Grapes of [email protected] 25 2005, 04:44 PM
However, let's be blunt. Imagine Europe in its entirety. With all the different languages, all the different dialects, all the different customs, all the different ethnic groups, and all the population milling around ... times that number by about 3 and you get China. It has 55 different nationalities (ethno-linguistic families if you will). It has Han, it has Manchus, it has Cantonese, it has Hmong, just to name a few.

With all this difference, could democracy even be founded in China? It has worked in India, but have they not a system inherited from the British? and with support from the British? China would have to start at square one. Chinese revolutionaries of the past advocated the use of the strong party to modernize the nation, to bring it into the future ... before an attempt at democracy could be made. Sun Yat-sen comes to mind in this regard.
You bring up some good arguments. However, i do believe that China is more homogeneous than you think. 93% of the population is Han, leaving 7% to other ethnic minorities. Sure, out of a population of 1.3 billion, 7% of that is still a heck of a lot of people, but the fact is that the overwhelming majority is Han. As to diversity conflicting with democracy, look at Switzerland. It is a very ethnically diverse country, but they have a great economy, even if it is based on clocks and their banks. [/b]
India has more ethnic group and languages then all of Europe combined and they don't have much trouble with the process and democracy in India was not impoted from the Brits. ohh India got way more diversed ethnic/lingusistic/religous base then China and besides the minorities in China are MINORITIES compared with India.

[RedStarOverChina]

Hitler was a fascist, but nonetheless a powerfull speaker. Do I justify him if I notice that he is a powerfull speaker? I simply noticed the bravery of the mister.

Pull your head out of your ass, boy.

U associtates being brave with heroism. I merely pointed out that it is NOT heroism. According to ur logic, Hitler is a hero.

So before telling me to pull my head out of my ass, u should stop ranting with ur butt cheeks.


Buegoirse democrats are much better than the tyranny of the chinese government.

ha. You sound like one of those "socialists" that's really just a Western Chauvinist.
Do I want my country to turn into another Iraq, u ask me? No thanx. I'll bet 1.3 billion other Chinese would say the samething.


India has more ethnic group and languages then all of Europe combined and they don't have much trouble with the process and democracy in India was not impoted from the Brits. ohh India got way more diversed ethnic/lingusistic/religous base then China and besides the minorities in China are MINORITIES compared with India.

What about all the massacres against each other in India? Have u spoken to a Hindu extremist? Do u realize the degree of racism among the hinduists?
Everyone know that Chinese abuses minorities, of course, they are "COMMUNISTS"! throw in sexism as well.

I wouldnt want China and India to switch places. At least we dont kill each other because of our race. and WE DO respect each other's cultural heiratage. Myself for one is a lover of dances and music of Chinese ethnics such as Tibetans, Monglians, Koreans and Miaos.

[RedStarOverChina]

opps. posted it twice

[pandora]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 07:49 AM

Hitler was a fascist, but nonetheless a powerfull speaker. Do I justify him if I notice that he is a powerfull speaker? I simply noticed the bravery of the mister.

Pull your head out of your ass, boy.

U associtates being brave with heroism. I merely pointed out that it is NOT heroism. According to ur logic, Hitler is a hero.

So before telling me to pull my head out of my ass, u should stop ranting with ur butt cheeks.


Buegoirse democrats are much better than the tyranny of the chinese government.

ha. You sound like one of those "socialists" that's really just a Western Chauvinist.
Do I want my country to turn into another Iraq, u ask me? No thanx. I'll bet 1.3 billion other Chinese would say the samething.

You make me laugh Redstar over China, and have a very good point about Iraq, but what about Tibet? Don't they have a choice as to their own representation, and should not that be decided by second generation Tibetans, and not those brought in from other regions of China?

[bolshevik butcher]

At least in western democracy people have some freedoms, the chinese government is just a capitalist dictatorship.

[guerillablack]

My whole thing is, even though Hitler wasn't your hero or a Jewish hero, he was many people's hero and still is. A hero doesn't have to be a universal recongnized hero in order to have that title. Malcolm X could be hero to some and not to others.

[codyvo]

We should try and be more like him and go protest. If their aren't any near you start gathering people to get enough to actually do something, find a rich neighbohood and hold up their traffic.

[RedStarOverChina]

After 200 years of foreign influence, we had a taste of the "civilized" west and their "aspiring efforts" to bring "civilization" to China. I'm soooo sick of the pretentious, arrogant chauvinists prentending they are better than us because they are "free". And i certainly see a degree of racial prejudice involved in their views.

I didnt like the Chinese government much before, but I'd rather have our own government than to suffer under western chauvinism, and I think i can speak for AT LEAST 1 billion Chinese on this issue. From now on I will defend my people and my government vigorously. My government has the support of 1 billion people and that is enough of a reason for me to defend it.

[workersunity]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 23 2005, 11:23 AM
At least in western democracy people have some freedoms, the chinese government is just a capitalist dictatorship.
America is also a capitalist dictatorship

dictatorship of the bourgeois to be more precise

[Jina]

Originally posted by RedStarOverChina+--> (RedStarOverChina)What about all the massacres against each other in India?[/b]Hmmm… last time I checked the “massacres” were related to religion NOT race/ethnicity.


Originally posted by RedStarOverChina+--> (RedStarOverChina)Have u spoken to a Hindu extremist? [/b]
Yes, your point?


Originally posted by RedStarOverChina
Do u realize the degree of racism among the hinduists? Hinduism is not a race, there are all sort of race/ethnic/linguistic people part of this fanatic group, and these fanatics are just reacting up to 1500 years foreign occupation on the religions that were imposed on them by those foreign powers. Again these have nothing to do with race/ethnicity.


Originally posted by RedStarOverChina
Everyone know that Chinese abuses minorities, of course, they are "COMMUNISTS"! throw in sexism as well. You said it not me… and China is not “Communist” so you can end your crap and argue properly without resorting to immature sarcasm.


[email protected]
I wouldnt want China and India to switch places. At least we dont kill each other because of our race.
Yes me too, They don’t want to kill their country men over political difference because they believe in the concept of freedom and openness … and once again… last time they killed each other over race was about 3500 years ago when the Aryans invaded the region then again they were foreigners… well the point is we don’t kill each other over race/ethnicity.


RedStarOverChina
and WE DO respect each other's cultural heiratage. Myself for one is a lover of dances and music of Chinese ethnics such as Tibetans, Monglians, Koreans and Miaos. Don’t make me laugh… you what? Have you heard about the “Cultural Revolution?” You weren’t even respectful of your own heritage so don’t start.

Again Indians respect others cultures that is why it’s been and is a multi cultural country/region for the past 3500+ years and we didn’t even go to war over religion till the Muslims invaded us and did their little purges of minorities living in Muslim dominated regions.

Ohhh, Tibetans, Koreans etc… aren’t CHINESE. They are what they are. If you use your twisted logic I can for sure say we are all San tribesmen of Africa.

[RedStarOverChina]

I never said hinduism is a race, i said there are racism among the hinduists.
are u plain dumb or are u intentionally misquoting me? a hinduist called me chink and a slit eye because i accuses him of being a racist.

U are one of those hinduists who try to divert international attention on India by bashing China. The last clash between the hindu extremists and muslims ended up costing the lives of thousands of Muslim civilians.

When's the last time u heard us Hans and Tibetans killing each other? The truth is, we dont dislike each other like the way Hindu nationalists harbour hatred towrds the rest of the world.


Have you heard about the “Cultural Revolution?”

Oh, im so impressed that u know about history. Of course u do realize King Asoka massacred millions in his conquest of India? India sure must be condemn because of it.

Of course Tibetans are Chinese. The phrase Chinese means everyone who lives in China. There are 56 ethnicities living harmoniously within China, including Hans, Tibetans, Chinese Koreans, Chinese monglians and Miaos. Shows how much u know.

[Jina]

Originally posted by RedStarOverChina+--> (RedStarOverChina)I never said hinduism is a race, i said there are racism among the hinduists.[/b]
But your comparing religion with race so I figured you were talking about “Hindu” as a race rather then a religion like every other morons I talk to.


Originally posted by RedStarOverChina+--> (RedStarOverChina)are u plain dumb or are u intentionally misquoting me? a hinduist called me chink and a slit eye because i accuses him of being a racist.[/b]Yup, because one called you certain thing, 1 billion of them have to be racist etc etc… ohhh then I can say this, last week was at this Chinese mall and some thing fell and broke and this Chinese women called me an African and started to accuse me of breaking the thing… even though I am not an African and my skin colour is very light yet she called me one so I guess you Chinese are all racists then… see I have a story also and this only happened last week…

Again stop showing your immature nature of your argument… get to the fucking points rather then attacking the person or do you substitute attack in order to make up for your incompetent way of debating?


Originally posted by RedStarOverChina
U are one of those hinduists who try to divert international attention on India by bashing China. The last clash between the hindu extremists and muslims ended up costing the lives of thousands of Muslim civilians.
1. I am not a Hindu(ists) as in the religious term.
2. I am not an Indian national.
3. Actualy last clash only killed 200 it was the clash before that that killed 2000, mainly Muslims.
4. here you go again now you are arguing about what RELIGIOUS groups did, we are here talking about RACE/ETHNICITY not RELIGION


Originally posted by RedStarOverChina
When's the last time u heard us Hans and Tibetans killing each other? The truth is, we dont dislike each other like the way Hindu nationalists harbour hatred towrds the rest of the world. When was that last time I checked where Kashmieries killing Punjabis? AGAIN stop comparing the 2 fucking RELIGIONS with RACE… you are getting on my fucking nerve now… point out ethnic conflicts not RELIGIOUS conflicts.

Ohh “Hindu nationalists”? Wtf is that did you hear that from some Western news outlets?


Originally posted by RedStarOverChina
Oh, im so impressed that u know about history. You keep on showing how immature you are, if you are going to debate with me, do it like an adult otherwise I have no time for children making pompous-ass comments to make themselves sound all tough and witty.


Originally posted by RedStarOverChina
Of course u do realize King Asoka massacred millions in his conquest of India [2200 YEARS AGO <-- you missed that part]?Don’t make me list all the killing Chinese did and again we are talking about racism here. Ohh the Cultural Revolution occurred several decades ago… there is a HUGE difference bettwen that and 2200 years.


Originally posted by RedStarOverChina
India sure must be condemn because of it.India didn’t exist back then so how are you planning to condemn India for that?


[email protected]
Of course Tibetans are Chinese. The phrase Chinese means everyone who lives in China. There are 56 ethnicities living harmoniously within China, including Hans, Tibetans, Chinese Koreans, Chinese monglians and Miaos. Last time I checked the Red Army forced Tibet as part of its territory, if you had let the Tibetans decide it would have been an independent country. Ohhhh if you live so “harmoniously” then why aren’t Tibetans allowed to practice their religion, their culture etc. etc. and have to run to other countries like Nepal, Bhutan and India in order to preserve their heritage?


RedStarOverChina
Shows how much u know. .I know very well about the ethnic groups in China but we are arguing here about racism and the oppression of the minorities in these two countries.

[RedStarOverChina]

I never claimed all Hinduists are extremists--u intentionally misinterpreted it. The extreme nationalism and racism is surprisingly strong among hinduists, and that is a fact.

Unfortunately my argument is made clear and that ur argument is based upon propaganda and prejudice. U did nothing but shitting the propaganda they teach u in elementry school about the "treacherous yellow race" (Rohinton Mistry, famous Indian writer.)

I made my point extra clear: the degree of conflict within China is no where near as severe as it is in India, be it among religions or among ethnics.

While u accuse me of attacking persons instead of the problem, u accuses me of being immature, u conflicting fool.



are getting on my fucking nerve now…

Oh please dont be angry...it would hurt me so bad if u are...Hahaha


Last time I checked the Red Army forced Tibet as part of its territory, if you had let the Tibetans decide it would have been an independent country.

Last time i checked India annexed Goa and forced Goans to go overseas. nor is it giving independece to Kashmire. And if u know anything about Tibet u&#39;d know there are minimum conflicts between tibetans and other ethnic groups. and if it separates the whole economy would lay in ruins and the people would endure great suffering---but obviously u dont care about that.

[Jina]

Goans? WTF... Goa was part of India and Portugese took it and after independace India took it back... :rolleyes: So by your logic... Hong Kong should be part of UK right? Ohh your history with Chinese ruling Tibet only dates back to 300 years ago and it was lost for a long time after till the day the Red Army went an took it.

There is a different between u attacking me and me just swearing...

I never heard of Rohinton Mistry so...

Kashmire will never be independace because giving independace to one ethnic group will have a cascade effect and every other group will get stronger because of it so bad for the union...

Can you tell me what Hinduists are? Are you talking about the religion since i never heard of that word or I can&#39;t even find that word on the dictionary so make that word clear.

How can there be Indian nationalism and racism if that country is composed of 100s of ethnic groups o.O... now you don&#39;t make any sense...

Yes one thing I agree with you, there an&#39;t much ethnic conflict amoung Chinese... but that was because the government did a wonderful job at repressing them actulay this started when the first Emperor united the country under one banner while in India each of the major ethnic groups were given a state to govern after indepenace so it is little bit more troubling for the federal government to govern and before that there were thousands of small kingdoms and tribal-democracies.