The Left in the Military

[Iepilei]

What's your take on socialists/communists/et al serving in the US armed forces. Or any armed forces for that matter?

As a college student, I have intentions on joining the military after I graduate. Not really because I have a desire to protect my country, but more because I feel as if it's my rightful place in society. I know there is alot of tension on the question of "should there be anti-capitalists in the military?" Many tend to think that if you serve time in the USM you are helping the capitalists gain in many key areas of the world.

A valid argument.

I'm not really sure what to think on it, though. My belief is that no matter where you work in a capitalist society, you're going to work to help better the cause of the capitalists who seek profit off of one's own labour. Personally, I would feel more content working for the US government than any industry or privately owned business (though some may argue the USG is, infact, a private business). The structure of the military is very socialistic in the way that they take care of people who are affiliated with them.

You get medical, food, shelter, pay, as well as dental, reduced costs on food and other consumer necessities. Military people don't pay a dime for necessary medications while on or near a base; nor does their family. Very few capitalist institutions offer anything of the sort.

So what's your take? Do you believe it's a sell-out method to work for the military as a left-winger?

[Dwarf Kirlston]

Military=Violence
Military=Hierarchy
Military=Paranoid
Military=Rightist
Military=Elitist

"Sell-out" for a left-winger to work for the military? Of course not. "sellout" to what? left is divided, but if you are a leftist I do want to tell you that the military is a national thing- rather than international
[US military] is led by Mr Bush
Advocating heroism, "death" is a good thing...
leading you to kill people as part of your duty [many who you would, since you are leftist, consider innocent]
advocating to soldiers to a very anti-leftist ideology. [pacifists are stupid and so on]

and no it is not "socialistic," It grants security not to the general populace but to an elite - like Hitler with the Aryans with living space and so on - it has a specific audience and yeah it is good for them.

As for "any armed forces" I would say that being part of the UN peacekeeping whatever would be a leftist thing to do.


my rightful place in society as opposed to working as a college professor? at burger king? at a candy factory? in a cubicle? What do you mean by that?

but you are obviously higher than me on the food chain [720 vs 30 posts] so I suppose my words are easily blown off like so much "dust in the wind"

[Sabocat]

Yes, by all means if you want to aid and abett the imperialist machine and be a mercenary killer for corporations, then please run to your nearest recruiter. But please don't make the mistake of ever considering yourself any kind of leftist.

If you wanna know if there is a place in the military for a "leftist", "communist", then I suggest when you join you openly tell them you're a Communist and then wait to see what they say.

When they send you or your division or ship or aircraft to take out a workers rebellion in whatever country they're interested in subduing next, what will be your response to that? Will that be your rightful place in society?


As for "any armed forces" I would say that being part of the UN peacekeeping whatever would be a leftist thing to do.

Yes, look how nicely the UN Peacekeeping forces have worked out in Kosovo, Haiti etc, etc.

[redstar2000]

Communists in a Capitalist Army? (http://redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1082812163&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Iepilei]

I believe that every person has their own unique attributes which enables them in certain aspects of every society. Some people are more fitted to accomplish certain tasks than others; not to say that any one task is more important, which is what market-economics tries to persuade us to thinking. Since I was young I always had the aspiration to be in intelligence, for some odd reason. I find that attaining knowledge is, to me, the most enjoyable and rewarding experiences. My gift, you might say.

I anticipated hostile comments, so I'm not insulted nor suprised that anyone would question my "leftism." However there are few viable alternatives to avoid "promoting" a capitalist society. If you live in one, you will always end up promoting it if you wish to survive.

I've actually considered joining the Peace Corp as an alternative to military service. It would probably be no better, because I see no good world change coming from any capitalist notion or institution outside of its own demise.

The case of "exclusion" is seen almost everywhere in the world, though, even in the few remaining socialistic (term used lightly) countries. People who are affiliated with the party have an easier life than those who disdain against it. Personally I don't consider either to be the "ideal" but again, little can be done in the times in which we live.

[Sabocat]

I anticipated hostile comments, so I'm not insulted nor suprised that anyone would question my "leftism." However there are few viable alternatives to avoid "promoting" a capitalist society. If you live in one, you will always end up promoting it if you wish to survive.

Promoting is one thing. Actively enrolling to go and kill the poor, or trade unionists, or some population of indigenous people for their country's natural resources is something else altogether.

[Dwarf Kirlston]

Originally posted by "Disgustapated"+--> ("Disgustapated")Yes, look how nicely the UN Peacekeeping forces have worked out in Kosovo, Haiti etc, etc. [/b] look in here (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/dpko/faq/q15.htm) for some successes. I am not an expert in the UN or it's dealings, I would love to learn more, as it is I don't know too well what you are talking about.

I went to redstar's site...

"Redstar's"
But even then, the purpose of an army--to defend the power and wealth of a ruling class against external and internal enemies (us) still remains.

As does the old question: which side are you on?

Professional soldiering is not "just another job". It is killing for a living. Is that what you want to be...a killer? Does it really matter what you think about other things in life if that becomes the definition of you as a person?

We are not simply what we "think" we are...we are, in a more fundamental sense, what we do. I object to this for the simple reason that many armies aren't there to kill, insteadthey are there to act as security...

And I also think that you don't judge well the opportunities granted by the military. It funds college for the people who are poor. It gives stable income.

[Iepilei]

Please take into account that I have no intention of serving in a combat role. Granted, this probably won't make much of a difference to those with critical eyes. I figured I'd just offer that as clarification.

The military has always been around and will always be around. I can't imagine a socialist country without one. To be honest, I can't imagine any country or international organisation without one. That's just the way we work. Even the socialist/communist "pacifists" aren't beyond the advocation of violence to attain goals. The problem isn't with the military, it's with the policy-makers. Sure, there are guys in the army who are all "who-rah" and will kill anything they're commanded to; but there are also those in service who listen to their concious.

The military isn't the root of the problem. And even if all the service men and women dropped their arms and stood against the forces to be in a coup, there would be PLENTY of PMCs ready to fill the void.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Clearly any "Communist" who wants to serve in the army, because that's his/her right place in society is nuts and absolutly not a communist. Please do yourself a pleasure and stop your self-denial. You fascists piece of scum.

The UN leftist? Was that after the rapings/massmurder/torture/abuse or before?

Peacekeepers liberating a niggerboy.

http://www.geocities.com/domesticdecay/images/peacekeeper.JPG

[Dwarf Kirlston]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 12:03 AM
The military has always been around and will always be around.
Do you believe the state will always exist as well? Are armed citizenry "the military"?

why do you believe it is your rightful place in society?

@Non-Sectarian Bastard: wow...

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

This statement tells all about his character. As we all know, the pigs and military are class traitors and oppressors of the working class. It's very striking that he says this:


I have intentions on joining the military after I graduate. Not really because I have a desire to protect my country, but more because I feel as if it's my rightful place in society.

Emphasize added.

We know on what side of the barricades he will be standing.

On the picture of the Blue helmets torturing the Somali kid. Some more details here:

The picture is part of this article: Beasts in Blue (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/UN/peace.html)

The Class traitors are two Belgian paratroopers: Privates Claude Baert and Kurt Coelus.

Ofcourse they went unpunished. Another "Peace Keeper" did this to liberate the population:

"In September, another military tribunal will be held to investigate the actions of Sergeant Dirk Nassel, the soldier photographed forcing a Somali boy to ingest worms and vomit."

Edit: I found this other article. This is what punishments they received: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~vwindsor/WTH.html

Excerpt:

"TWO Belgian paratroopers who were photographed "roasting" a Somali boy over a flaming brazier are expected to be jailed for only a month and fined #200 after admitting the atrocity in a military court in Brussels yesterday."

Fuck the military!

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Iepilei+--> (Iepilei)Since I was young I always had the aspiration to be in intelligence, for some odd reason. I find that attaining knowledge is, to me, the most enjoyable and rewarding experiences. My gift, you might say.[/b]

There are obviously a wide variety of ways to "gain knowledge"...that's an extremely poor excuse.

Consider what use your "gathered knowledge" will be put to. You will contribute, in one fashion or another, to a "hit list"...people who will be killed (or arrested and tortured) for the greater glory of the American Empire. Or perhaps entire cities that will be destroyed...like Fallujah -- a "target list".

Perhaps you imagine that you'll just be interpreting intelligence relating to "terrorists" -- you'll soon learn the real operating definition of that word: anyone, foreign or domestic, who is opposed to the American Empire!


Personally I don't consider either to be the "ideal" but again, little can be done in the times in which we live.

But there are things that can be not done. Even in the depths of the 3rd Reich, there were some (too few!) who refused to be directly involved in the Holocaust. They were quietly transferred to other duties...and otherwise unpunished.

Living in a capitalist society is a dirty business and few of us ever get the chance to do something half-way decent and still make a living.

But you still have to draw the line somewhere!


Dwarf Kirlston
I object to this for the simple reason that many armies aren't there to kill, instead they are there to act as security...

What do you imagine "act as security" means? Who are they making "secure" and secure from what?

What does that innocuous phrase "act as security" mean if not the use or threat of deadly force to keep the bastards who are running things in power?

"Security" in Afghanistan? That means preserve American power.

"Security" in Iraq? Same thing.

"Security" in Africa or Haiti or Timur or Bosnia or Kosovo? Well, that is a little bit more complicated...call it trying to establish conditions that would facilitate future American power if desired.

Not to mention stealing whatever's not nailed down and raping the native girls.


And I also think that you don't judge well the opportunities granted by the military. It funds college for the people who are poor. It gives stable income.

Just the other day, I saw some numbers about that...and, of course, can't remember the site.

But as I recall, only 15% of the people who get out of the military ever go to college at all and only 4% actually graduate.

When you leave the military, you're probably going to be a cop, prison guard, private security cop, or something like that.

In other words, a turd.

The "stable income" part is true enough; being a mercenary in an army that wins has always been touted as a path of "upward social mobility" for some.

But the downside, of course, is when it loses.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Guest1]

Originally posted by Dwarf [email protected] 22 2005, 07:31 PM
but you are obviously higher than me on the food chain [720 vs 30 posts] so I suppose my words are easily blown off like so much "dust in the wind"
That's not how we work here.

As for Iepilei, what do you think military intelligence does? Where are they doing their work?

Venezeula, Nepal, Russia, anywhere the working class is organizing.

And that's what you're gonna be doing, fucking the working class.

And just so you know, we don&#39;t give a fuck how much lubricant you use, you&#39;re still raping us <_<

[Dwarf Kirlston]

Originally posted by Che y Marijuana+Feb 23 2005, 06:34 PM--> (Che y Marijuana @ Feb 23 2005, 06:34 PM)
Originally posted by Dwarf Kirlston+Feb 22 2005, 07:31 PM--> (Dwarf Kirlston &#064; Feb 22 2005, 07:31 PM) but you are obviously higher than me on the food chain [720 vs 30 posts] so I suppose my words are easily blown off like so much "dust in the wind" [/b]That&#39;s not how we work here. [/b]
uooh you have 3000 posts and an admin :o

:)


Originally posted by Redstar
"Security" in Africa or Haiti or Timur or Bosnia or Kosovo? Well, that is a little bit more complicated...call it trying to establish conditions that would facilitate future American power if desired.

Not to mention stealing whatever&#39;s not nailed down and raping the native girls.
Security in these parts is what I meant. and I do think it is more complicated and I do think that the government needs to be fixed in those parts and a capitalist country with monopolies in control is not what they want and what could happen if the nation divided because it didn&#39;t want to discuss further.


Che y [email protected]
As for Iepilei, what do you think military intelligence does? Where are they doing their work?

Venezeula, Nepal, Russia, anywhere the working class is organizing.

And that&#39;s what you&#39;re gonna be doing, fucking the working class. The military works elsewhere, against bad people... like ummm... haha.. I don&#39;t know...


redstar
But as I recall, only 15% of the people who get out of the military ever go to college at all and only 4% actually graduate.
Ish. I was told that the only way for many people to go to college was through the military, sweet deal that for college you pledged to be a reserve for 20 years.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 06:34 PM
The problem isn&#39;t with the military, it&#39;s with the policy-makers. Sure, there are guys in the army who are all "who-rah" and will kill anything they&#39;re commanded to; but there are also those in service who listen to their concious.
What&#39;s missing here is any awareness that the military is an institution, and a highly structured one, not just a collection of individuals.

As an institution, the current military exists to serve the capitalist class. In order to ensure it does so, it&#39;s commanded by officers who are a privileged caste, elevated economically and socially above the enlisted personel, and even forbidden to "fraternize" with them.

Many people in the ranks of the armed forces are working people, who enlisted for economic motives, or even because they thought the military was defending the country or something. It&#39;s possible - even important - to do political work among them.

In the past, when drafted, revolutionary Marxists have "done their time" in the army, and done what political work they can there, because you can do more in the army than in jail.

But joining voluntarily? And not to do political work, or out of economic necessity, but because you &#39;feel it&#39;s your rightful place in society&#39; whatever that means? Way off.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

The state is not a neutral entity.

Working in the bourgeois government would still serve the capitalist class.

[flyby]

here is a great article on the history of resistance inside the military to the war in vietnam:

Revolt in the War Machine (http://rwor.org/a/v21/1040-049/1047/jwayne.htm)

and here is another version:

Black GIs, Rebellion and the Fall of the Flag (http://rwor.org/a/v20/990-99/994/blkgis.htm)

from revolutionary worker&#39;s history page (http://rwor.org/s/histry.htm)

[Zingu]

I feel kind of unfairly treated here.


Finland, a Social Democractic country has compulsory conscription (since 1918), and if every male is a member of the military (which is true, you are a reservist until you are 60 years of age), and combined with the fact that Finland has a high number of leftists...the military is stuffed with potentional dissisentors.

If the unprobable event of a country like Finland to start useing military to opress the working class or conduct an imperialist action, I think many parts of the military would revolt instantly.

Including me.



(Not in the military yet, but I get my conscription notice at 18)

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Why unfair?

This guy wants to voluntarily sign up, you are forced.

[Iepilei]

Well, I suppose this would be more beneficial if I actually stated what I intend.

I wish to join the USAF after serving 2 years as a cadet in ROTC. Enter in as a CO at 2nd Lt and do tedious crap and make my rounds until I can get no higher or I get tired.

At present, I have no intentions of staying in the military long.

However, I wish to use time spent and my status as a military figure to work in diplomacy. I&#39;m not entirely sure as to where and what exactly I&#39;ll be trying to get into; as this is still a far off point in my life.

One of my ideals would be working for the United Nations. I think that would be enjoyable.

My "rightful place" is not just IN the military, as I think many of you interpreted it. I feel that intel would be a big thing for me and it would put me in the "real time" as far as what&#39;s going on and where, so I can have a better understanding of how things need to be corrected.

To me, I&#39;d rather be a part of the changing factor as opposed to working for the true enemy, making it money directly.

[Ligeia]

Germany is also a Social Democractic country and has compulsory conscription but not for women(they can join if they whish to,as well).
And there would maybe exist a similar situation as in Finland.
Anyway,if you are clever you can deny the conscription since you can choose between "social service" and "military service".
In the military there is a clause that you have to attack/kill every one/thing that the person with a rank above you commands you to,otherwise you get a punishment and you are not allowed to question the commands made.
The military is really not the right place for people with at least a little bit of a leftist consciousness.I know someone who went their for 9 months(because of the compulsory conscription)and this person is from the green party and he just noticed that the people their are chauvinists,quite racist,totally ant-leftist and what not of all these bad things and what is more important almost all of those military men are not quite intelligent,there is no chance they understand your point of view,they are interested in having a place to live in or from.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Zingu+--> (Zingu)I feel kind of unfairly treated here.[/b]

Why? Just because a country has conscription doesn&#39;t mean you "have to go" and "do your time" -- like a prison sentence.

As extremely rigid bureaucracies, armies detest trouble-makers. Convince them that you&#39;re a trouble-maker and they&#39;ll probably leave you alone.

What&#39;s a "trouble-maker" in their eyes? Someone who openly advocates communism or anarchism; someone who obviously has a "bad attitude" towards authority; someone who openly says that patriotism is "a pile of shit"; etc.

When they call you up for your pre-induction physical examination, take a whole stack of leaflets with you and pass them out to your fellow victims. I&#39;ll even write a sample leaflet that you can use...though you&#39;ll have to translate it into Finnish. :)

In other words, don&#39;t have the attitude of a sheep..."well, duh, I guess I have to do it". Get up on your hind legs and act like a human&#33;


Iepilei
One of my ideals would be working for the United Nations. I think that would be enjoyable.

The myth of the powder blue helmets strikes again&#33;

Maybe if it&#39;s said often enough, people will finally get it through their heads: the United Nations is a front for U.S. imperialism.

Qualification? Sure. If the U.S. has no immediate interests at stake, the UN will also serve as a front for various European imperialisms.


To me, I&#39;d rather be a part of the changing factor as opposed to working for the true enemy, making it money directly.

Why?

First of all, the military and the UN are factors that do indeed "change things"...for the worse&#33;

Secondly, if you work directly for a capitalist "making money", there&#39;s also at least the chance to do something potentially useful or making something that&#39;s actually real. It&#39;s not a big chance, but it&#39;s a chance.

The only "product" of the capitalist state apparatus is pure oppression...period&#33; The only "use" of their product is the continuation of the capitalist system by violence or the threat of violence.

As I noted earlier, life in capitalism is "a dirty business" no matter what you do for a living...but you still have to draw the line somewhere&#33;

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 07:31 AM
As extremely rigid bureaucracies, armies detest trouble-makers. Convince them that you&#39;re a trouble-maker and they&#39;ll probably leave you alone.

What&#39;s a "trouble-maker" in their eyes? Someone who openly advocates communism or anarchism; someone who obviously has a "bad attitude" towards authority; someone who openly says that patriotism is "a pile of shit"; etc.

When they call you up for your pre-induction physical examination, take a whole stack of leaflets with you and pass them out to your fellow victims. I&#39;ll even write a sample leaflet that you can use...though you&#39;ll have to translate it into Finnish. :)
This did often work back when the U.S. had a draft.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

To Redstar2000.

Where I live, physical examination is forced. Every male has to go through it.

Refusing physical examination will lead to punishment. One of the situations you might end up in is serving sentence in jail for several years.

Do you think going to the physical examination is acceptable, or do you believe we should equally detest this?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I wish to use time spent and my status as a military figure to work in diplomacy. [I&#39;m not entirely sure as to where and what exactly I&#39;ll be trying to get into; as this is still a far off point in my life.]

One of my ideals would be working for the United Nations. I think that would be enjoyable.

My "rightful place" is not just IN the military, as I think many of you interpreted it. [I feel that intel would be a big thing for me and it would put me in the "real time" as far as what&#39;s going on and where,] so I can have a better understanding of how things need to be corrected.


To me, I&#39;d rather be a part of the changing factor as opposed to working for the true enemy, making it money directly.


Do you consider US your friend?

Do you, or do you not consider working for the US military to be working for the enemy?

[Super Mario Conspiracy]

Well, I can say that where I live, passing the pre-military examinasion is VERY easy. You don&#39;t even have to prepare. They&#39;ll send you some papers, about four leaflets with questions about, mostly, your health and social condition.

If you have ANY "problem" on or within your body, you are released of service. It can be because of your weight, astma, problems with eyes or ears, and so on. They won&#39;t even test you to proove if it is true.

Another thing: You can actually choose if you want to enlist or not. Not directly, as calling them up and openly say "no", but indirectly (ALL cases I have heard from friends and read elsewhere prooves that simply saying "no" during the examination will get you out of the enlisting). Even I did this.

In the future, it will even be possible for men to choose if they want to enlist or not (as I said, currently all men have an obligation to get examined else they end up in jail).

Though, you have an obligation to protect your country for five years, should there be war (which is highly unlikely where I live).

The reason for this is because of our economy. I also believe that we actually don&#39;t need a military - the one we have can easily be swept away by any given country any given day.

Now, joining the army is another thing. For example, would it be wrong to join the army if your own country was attacked? I would say no, and specially no for countries whose future looks bright, like Venezuela and Sweden (where I am :D ). Would I want a "new American order" to be established in my country?

No, I wouldn&#39;t. I would defend my country. I would defend it because I believe that we have a future, we are open and free. I believe that we are very close to true socialism, and I hope that we will achieve it very soon.

Now, would I join the army if they were invading another country? It depends on the situation. For example, would it be right to invade Nazi Germany? Did all Americans KNOW what the Germans were doing? The slaughtering of the innocent, the Holocaust? Even the majority of the German people didn&#39;t know.

In the end, it prooved to be good - we stopped fascism and rasism from spreading around the globe - both directly (in form of invasions with troops, planes and ships) and indirectly (new fascist parties, "inspired" by the nazis and fascists in Germany and Italy).

Now, I&#39;m not saying that invading Iraq will in 100 years look good, I&#39;m saying that joining the military depends on the situation.

Like I said - I would join to defend my country and our freedom, AND our work towards socialism, but I would not join if we were about to invade another country on the other side of the world with some futile "proof" of weapons of mass destruction.

Of course, living in the US is hard because it is the "most capitalist" country in the world. In Sweden, it is much easier to actually get a job - I got my current one out of coinsidence actually. Not because I earn much, nor is it very "helpful" to society, but still...

My recommendations is to skip the army when living in the US. Study instead, learn and help people locally. Educate your friends and relatives about socialism.

The US don&#39;t need more people in their army. They have power and technology comparable to the next 17 countries together:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperpower

...what possible change would one man do???

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 04:51 PM
To Redstar2000.

Where I live, physical examination is forced. Every male has to go through it.

Refusing physical examination will lead to punishment. One of the situations you might end up in is serving sentence in jail for several years.

Do you think going to the physical examination is acceptable, or do you believe we should equally detest this?
You should go...and cause problems&#33;

One thing we did back in the 60s when a comrade had to report for his pre-induction physical exam was stage a demonstration outside the induction center...with a fake coffin.

All the people reporting for their physical exams saw it (we got there really early in the morning). When our comrade went inside, he talked up the coffin angle quite a bit.

Oh yeah, he was also wearing black pajamas and a "Viet Cong" hat.

After that, he never heard from his draft board again.

The military hates problems.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Severian]

Originally posted by Super Mario [email protected] 24 2005, 07:37 PM
No, I wouldn&#39;t. I would defend my country. I would defend it because I believe that we have a future, we are open and free. I believe that we are very close to true socialism, and I hope that we will achieve it very soon.
Those who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Many socialist workers during WWI joined the army, and their leaders supported the war, for precisely these reasons.

Sweden is, economically, an imperialist country. Its finance capital exploits the Third World as well as Swedish workers. Its troops are part of the occupation of Yugoslavia.

There, as elsewhere in Europe, the growing anti-Americanism reflects the competition of Swedish capital with U.S. capital.

That&#39;s what you&#39;d be fighting for.

I might point out as well that Sweden is in fact moving away from even the traditional social-democratic welfare state, and closer to laissez-faire capitalism. Social programs have been slashed - by social-democratic governments - to increase the competitiveness of Swedish capitalism.

[Iepilei]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 10:34 PM
Do you consider US your friend?

Do you, or do you not consider working for the US military to be working for the enemy?
I consider working under capitalism as "working for the enemy."

Do I like the US? If you mean the economic system, I despise it. If you mean the political system, I lean towards no, but I see potential in it. It&#39;s possible to stir up the mix by working the system; being part of it and doing your part to incite change. Some would contest that it&#39;s "all rigged." I&#39;m not sure whether or not I can entirely accept that every government person in this country is "corrupted," though a vast deal tend to be.

But as far as the geographics go, I like the US. Not for the nation, but because the land is native to my people, the Tsalagi. I have roots here. Though I&#39;d love to move the hell out of here, I don&#39;t know if I could call anywhere else home.

[RedAnarchist]

So, you would use the infiltrate tactic of pretending to be a capitalist or something and then use that to help destroy them from within?

[Iepilei]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 02:05 PM
So, you would use the infiltrate tactic of pretending to be a capitalist or something and then use that to help destroy them from within?
It would take a brash individual to make a claim like that on a public forum.

[bunk]

Merely working under capitlaism does not mean that whatever you do will be in benefit to capitalism.

Working for the military is helping to secure there capitalism.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Iepilei
But as far as the geographics go, I like the US. Not for the nation, but because the land is native to my people, the Tsalagi.

The more you speak, the more bizarre your views become.

You want to serve in the military of a regime that did its best to destroy the Tsalagi (Cherokee) people...the "trail of tears", remember?

It&#39;s as crazy as an Orthodox Jew volunteering for the German Army&#33;

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Iepilei]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 02:57 PM
The more you speak, the more bizarre your views become.

You want to serve in the military of a regime that did its best to destroy the Tsalagi (Cherokee) people...the "trail of tears", remember?

It&#39;s as crazy as an Orthodox Jew volunteering for the German Army&#33;


Yeah, I remember. Of course that didn&#39;t stop the Navajo from joining military service. Nor did it stop African-Americans. The difference between my situation and your analogy is the military ceased hostilities against my people moons ago.

It&#39;s possible to join and maintain who you are. Just because ideologies differ, it&#39;s not impossible to exchange services which may ultimately better our cause.

I mean, I&#39;ve said this before, but the Soviets bought American trucks for use in their military. Aiding the capitalist Ford Motor Company. The first jet-powered MiG used an engine constructed by Roles-Royce. The first Soviet bomber capable of dropping an atomic payload was of American design.

Keep your friends close, your enemies closer.

[Super Mario Conspiracy]

Many socialist workers during WWI joined the army, and their leaders supported the war, for precisely these reasons.

Then I guess I should do nothing and let true US capitalism consume the country?


Sweden is, economically, an imperialist country.

All countries are. But some are more than others.


Its finance capital exploits the Third World as well as Swedish workers. Its troops are part of the occupation of Yugoslavia.

As I said above, all countries exploit the third world. I am aware of all this, but I also believe that our system have given many people, among them homosexuals and women, rights that other countries and systems haven&#39;t granted yet.


There, as elsewhere in Europe, the growing anti-Americanism reflects the competition of Swedish capital with U.S. capital.

For now, yes.


That&#39;s what you&#39;d be fighting for.

Well, assuming the US would attack our country, they would probably have a "reason" to do so - i.e. socialism, human rights and so on.


I might point out as well that Sweden is in fact moving away from even the traditional social-democratic welfare state, and closer to laissez-faire capitalism.

Yes, you might have a point there. But a welfare state is a relative thing, which is why I believe that we either have to move on to socialism or tie the whole thing up and live in capitalism. I hope the first one will come in effect soon, but the right is gaining support, mainly because of the failure of the Social Democratic party.


Social programs have been slashed - by social-democratic governments - to increase the competitiveness of Swedish capitalism.

Yes, this is a sad thing. I hope the future will be better.


I mean, I&#39;ve said this before, but the Soviets bought American trucks for use in their military. Aiding the capitalist Ford Motor Company. The first jet-powered MiG used an engine constructed by Roles-Royce. The first Soviet bomber capable of dropping an atomic payload was of American design.

Well the Soviets weren&#39;t actually communists now, were they?

[Iepilei]

Well the Soviets weren&#39;t actually communists now, were they?

I guess it just depends on who you ask. Personally I believe that the Soviets wanted to be communist, but lacked the means. Thus, they were forced under years of inadequate guidance to their ultimate demise.

:ph34r:

[redstar2000]

Here is what folks like Iepilei are headed for...

Here is the text of a post at NYC Indy-Media...reproduced exactly as it appeared...


Protests are for spoiled little rich children who live on mommies money. Who are they kidding, do they really think anyone really cares that these drug addicts get angry about these so called "issues"it is so funny to watch their outrage. Go ahead protest all you want, it does no good because you just look like a bunch of losers no one is taking these protests seriously besides if they had any power at all dean would have been facing bush, I dont care either way who wins the war will go on and we still be killing terrorist trash, jon kerry if he does win will be so afraid of looking weak next to the memory of bush that he will probably escalate the war to show strength. go ahead delete this post if you want i&#39;ll just post more , and to all the people who post from other nations than the usa your opinion means nothing because America does what it wants, when it wants and their is not a fucking thing that any other nation can do about it, get it? c&#39;,mon get angry it is funny when your mad ps I used to be an earth firster when i lived in tucson but then I grew up got a degree from suny cortland , spent ten years in the US Army now I look back upon my activest phase the same way I look back upon my involment with gangs as a teenager living in south tucson with embarrasment, I have been on both sides and I say now as good citizen to all of you eco terrorist trash your outrage will change nothing , your actions may make you feel important BUT after the ten second blurb on the news people people will go back o thier cable tv and fast food burgers and just change the channel and think to themselves" wow another hippie wacko on the newswhats new?" activism is just a hobbie so that rich educated priveliged people like us can feel less guilty about not being poor&#33; Feel free to email comments to bardic (at) rock.com , bill ruiz

http://nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display_...ndex.php#111392 (http://nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/111355/index.php#111392)


From time to time, people on this board will talk about "joining the army" as a "revolutionary tactic" -- a way of "winning over" professional mercenaries "to the revolution". When I saw this post, I thought it was a very accurate "self-portrait" of what you turn into if you follow that road.

First of all, note that inspite of a claimed degree from SUNY (State University of New York), this post is barely literate. This "person" has lost, if he ever had, almost all contact with the English language.

Second, note that the tone of his post approaches incoherent rage...you can almost visualize him typing it as fast as his clumsy fingers could manage, striking the keys so hard that some of them could have broken in the process.

Third, it seems to me that a good deal of his rage is directed against the young as such...to be young is, all by itself, a kind of "crime". The young are "living on Mommy&#39;s money", are "drug addicts", are "teen-gang members", are "eco-terrorist trash", are "hippie wackos" for whom "activism is a hobby", and so on.

Fourthly, note that all he has to identify with is America&#39;s "imperial grandeur" -- he says bluntly, "...America does what it wants, when it wants, and there is not a fucking thing that any other nation can do about it, get it?" As a mercenary, his real life is totally one of following orders...but "in his head" he is "The All-Powerful Empire".

It is a sad document, no question about it. Humans debased into mindless "killing machines" do not a pretty picture make.

Yet this is what you become when you choose to be a mercenary in service to the empire...as a rational human, you&#39;ve committed a kind of suicide long before the bullet from a resistance fighter shatters your skull.

It&#39;s up to you if you wish to pity them...but if you do, remember that as civilized humans they died long before the roadside bomb exploded.

Don&#39;t ever let their fate be yours.

---------------------------------------------------Posted September 1, 2004.

Thread discussion and more quotes...

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...53&hl=mercenary (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=28753&hl=mercenary)

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 07:08 PM
I mean, I&#39;ve said this before, but the Soviets bought American trucks for use in their military. Aiding the capitalist Ford Motor Company. The first jet-powered MiG used an engine constructed by Roles-Royce. The first Soviet bomber capable of dropping an atomic payload was of American design.
What kind of point do you imagine you&#39;re making? An engine doesn&#39;t have a political consciousness or a class character.

An army does. It is an institution, with a class character, which serves a ruling class. In this case, the U.S. capitalist class.

Anyway, I now think you&#39;re just trolling. If you seriously intended the career path you&#39;ve now described, why would you be posting on this board at all? If it got back to your prospective employers, it&#39;d tend to mess up your chances for a security clearance.