The Hypocritical nature of Che-Lives

[Spartacus2002]

if this is the revolutionary left's website why do we have advertising by capitalists on this site? don't kill me just wondering. i mean everyone talks about jay-z being a hypocrite on the other post for profiting from a revolutionary message is not this website essentially doing the same thing in a smaller form.

[Anarchist Freedom]

ahh you see the thing is. We dont use any of the capitalist means for exploitation or profit. We use them to fund this site so we can stay active. ;)

[Spartacus2002]

well... i hope so... i wonder if thats what the executives of the poster companies that create che posters say too.

[Spartacus2002]

...by the way i am not trying to be an asshole just wondering... you know...

[Anarchist Freedom]

No I understand that your not trying to be an asshole. I doubt that the people who make the posters are. Thing is though there hanging there own noose by selling them.

[guerillablack]

As i said before. I don't know why people diss jay-z, he does way more for his community than they could claim they do for theirs.

[bunk]

What does Jay-Z do for his community? Probably a lot, throwing big parties, not that it matters, he probably lives in a very rich area. I doubt he still lives with his original community.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

I never understood this argument. Obviously we are not in an anti-capitalist world. Everything that we use has to be paid in real money. That's including this server. The server is't cheap. These adds together with T-shirt sales and donations help keep the site running in this cappie world.

Unfortunatly we can't pay a server with ideals. :P

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 06:26 PM
As i said before. I don't know why people diss jay-z, he does way more for his community than they could claim they do for theirs.
What does he do? Giving 1 percent of his wealth to poor black kids? Promoting the extravaganza lifestyle of the rich? Degrading the working class?

Calling himself the Che Guevara with "bling-bling" on? That makes as much sense as the car without an engine on.

[FeArANDLoAtHiNg]

Uh Oh, this thread is turning into the Jay-Z one again... :P

Anyone who is determined to see advertisements leave Che-Lives, should donate some serious cash. :D

[The Feral Underclass]

IF you see a banner or advertisment which is inappropriate, PM Malte, the owner of the site, and he will remove them if he agree's.

As for Jay-z, he went to South Africa and was asked by reporters if he was going to visit Soweto (Soweto is a suburb of Johannesburg where the struggle against aparthied was born and an area which is/was where the black south africans were segregated during aparthied). He replied by sayin.."Is that a nightclub."

[STI]

Anyone who is determined to see advertisements leave Che-Lives, should donate some serious cash.

That's a pretty flawed statement. Nobody "is determined to see ads", but there are people who realize that they are, unfortunately, a necessity. Just because somebody realizes that they need to be there to keep the site up doesn't mean they have all kinds of money lying around to give to internet sites. Fuck knows I don't.

[FeArANDLoAtHiNg]

That's a pretty flawed statement. Nobody "is determined to see ads"

I think you misunderstood me. I said anyone who is determined to see Ads LEAVE. As in the ads leaving, not people.

What I said:


Anyone who is determined to see advertisements leave Che-Lives

I agree that ads are an unfortunate necessity.

[Iepilei]

We can't be unrealistic and cut-ourselves off from capitalism. We have to be a PART of it, in order to see the wrongs in it. Living in a modern-society and being socialist means we have to make due with what we have and not only make our part to MINIMIZE our consumption but promote the policy that OTHERS must minimize their own.

[Anarchist Freedom]

Jay-z does about as much for his community as bush does for gay rights. So jay z may go to a charity or something.In his cd's he talks about all the stuff he does in the past THE PAST! He isnt still on the corner slingin dimebags of coke is he? probably not he is fucking beyonce on his yacht in the carribean. Wow alot he does to help his community.He is about as fucking hardcore as I am. He is washed up he has no credibility left and he can lick my balls the next time he says hes like che guevara with bling bling on!

[STI]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 09:40 PM

That's a pretty flawed statement. Nobody "is determined to see ads"

I think you misunderstood me. I said anyone who is determined to see Ads LEAVE. As in the ads leaving, not people.

What I said:


Anyone who is determined to see advertisements leave Che-Lives

I agree that ads are an unfortunate necessity.
Shit. My bad. Sorry.

[FeArANDLoAtHiNg]

Not a problem. :D

[guerillablack]

All your jay-z statements say either he probably or ends in a question. Meaning you have no idea what he does in his community.

The Anarchist Tension, he knock jay-z for not knowing what Soweto is yet have in parenthesis what Soweto is. IE meaning, it's not common knowledge and some people may not know what it is. So how you gonna knock him but not even expect some people on a site like this to know?

finish the bar to that couplet. "i'm like che guervara with bling on/i never claim to have wings on" IE, meaning he knows he nots perfect like the rest of us. He knows he has his faults. You dont have to be a communist to be like Che, just like you dont have to be muslim to be like Malcom X.

Grow up.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

I do.

Che Guevara was an anti-capitalist, a man who came up for the workingclass. Jay Z is a hugh promoter of Capitalism and constantly degenerates the workingclass.

You grow up.

[bunk]

Guerrilla Black what proof do you have of what jay-z has done for his community. I'm speaking of what i think is pretty much correct why do you think otherwise?

[Spartacus2002]

what have any of us done for our communities not alot... we all talk alot...

[STI]

The revolution isn't about charity. "Doing stuff in your community" isn't what makes you a leftist. Working to cause shit for (and eventually remove) the ruling class is what makes you a leftist.

[Ele'ill]

The revolution isn't about charity. "Doing stuff in your community" isn't what makes you a leftist. Working to cause shit for (and eventually remove) the ruling class is what makes you a leftist.

Actually your choosen political ideology makes you a leftist. The revolution is about charity. If you do not associate with, or help out the community, why would they take part in any type of revolution? A revolution is decided by the masses, not a few thousand leftists.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 09:22 PM

The revolution isn't about charity. "Doing stuff in your community" isn't what makes you a leftist. Working to cause shit for (and eventually remove) the ruling class is what makes you a leftist.

Actually your choosen political ideology makes you a leftist. The revolution is about charity. If you do not associate with, or help out the community, why would they take part in any type of revolution? A revolution is decided by the masses, not a few thousand leftists.
very true. The revolution is about "charity cases" helping themselves.

[Spartacus2002]

true but they must be intructed in the ways of their self liberation which is in itself a charitable thing to do... leftists should be involved in helping the downtrodden no matter what the end results are becuase it is the right thing to do at the very least it will build support for our cause thats why cuba sends doctors to the third world

[T_34]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 22 2005, 08:27 PM
IF you see a banner or advertisment which is inappropriate, PM Malte, the owner of the site, and he will remove them if he agree's.

As for Jay-z, he went to South Africa and was asked by reporters if he was going to visit Soweto (Soweto is a suburb of Johannesburg where the struggle against aparthied was born and an area which is/was where the black south africans were segregated during aparthied). He replied by sayin.."Is that a nightclub."
Sorry for pointing this out, it wasn't Jay-Z, it was Ja Rule.

And there is only one real rapper worth listening to who brings a socialist message in some of his rhymes, Immortal Technique.

[T_34]

And maybe Jay-Z does help his community, but he still has the luxury of buying yachts and Basketball teams! Other rappers made their money and lived their life comfortably without splashing out, The rapper Nas gets it in one when he says driving through his old hood in a limo or an SUV would be teasing the people there.

[Cokane]

I hate Jay-Z too, and your right, Immortal Technique is the only rapper who brings a socialist message in his songs, other rappers might touch on it, but he's the only one who tells you about it.

[guerillablack]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 10:37 PM
And maybe Jay-Z does help his community, but he still has the luxury of buying yachts and Basketball teams! Other rappers made their money and lived their life comfortably without splashing out, The rapper Nas gets it in one when he says driving through his old hood in a limo or an SUV would be teasing the people there.
So what if he has the luxury to buy a boat. I see the word community in communism. He has done more than you ever had in your life and probably will. I'm sad to say, but money is power in this country. Why hate on him for being rich AND helping the poor? How many of you participated in real Rally's? For those who honestly haven't did you know Jay-z has?

[bunk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 05:50 PM
I hate Jay-Z too, and your right, Immortal Technique is the only rapper who brings a socialist message in his songs, other rappers might touch on it, but he's the only one who tells you about it.
Dead Prez, the coup?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Charity? Charity is that hand down from the bosses so that the guilt doesn&#39;t kill them. <_<

What we need is some motherfucking working class solidarity. STI, we&#39;re not going to be able to cause shit while our comunities are struggling. We need to get out there and do shit so that people have hope, have opportunities to build connections, and are able to build authentic couinter-instiitutions. Seriously, you can dismiss it as "charity" if you want, but yr typical "Food Not Bombs" chapter or anti-poverty coalition does a fuck of a lot more to establish a base for revolution than any shit-starter&#39;s grand illusion.

[STI]

Actually your choosen political ideology makes you a leftist. The revolution is about charity. If you do not associate with, or help out the community, why would they take part in any type of revolution? A revolution is decided by the masses, not a few thousand leftists.

Ya, your chosen ideology makes you a leftist. That was the point I was making.

They&#39;d "take part in any type of revolution" because it&#39;s in their interest to do so. A revolution is sure as hell decided by the masses, I don&#39;t know where you got anything contrary to that from my post.



What we need is some motherfucking working class solidarity. STI, we&#39;re not going to be able to cause shit while our comunities are struggling. We need to get out there and do shit so that people have hope, have opportunities to build connections, and are able to build authentic couinter-instiitutions. Seriously, you can dismiss it as "charity" if you want, but yr typical "Food Not Bombs" chapter or anti-poverty coalition does a fuck of a lot more to establish a base for revolution than any shit-starter&#39;s grand illusion.

I&#39;m pretty sure you missed the point of my post. Did I ever say "revolutionaries shouldn&#39;t do any charity work"? No. Did I ever say "charity work doesn&#39;t help to build networks and meet contacts"? No.

What I did say was "charity work doesn&#39;t make you a leftist". Therefore, even if Jay-Z (or Ja Rule or whoever the fuck it turns out being) did "do shit in his community", it wouldn&#39;t have an impact on whether or not he was a leftist.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 10:16 PM
I&#39;m pretty sure you missed the point of my post. Did I ever say "revolutionaries shouldn&#39;t do any charity work"? No. Did I ever say "charity work doesn&#39;t help to build networks and meet contacts"? No.

What I did say was "charity work doesn&#39;t make you a leftist". Therefore, even if Jay-Z (or Ja Rule or whoever the fuck it turns out being) did "do shit in his community", it wouldn&#39;t have an impact on whether or not he was a leftist.
This is why I should stop posting before bed at 6am.

All good then - intentions and actions are necessary for building a coherent left-identity. I dig.

Let&#39;s eat some rich folk.

Night.

[Zingu]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 22 2005, 08:27 PM
IF you see a banner or advertisment which is inappropriate, PM Malte, the owner of the site, and he will remove them if he agree&#39;s.
Like...
"Buy True Religion jeans
Shop Online True Religion Jeans&#33; Shop online at shopbop.com"?


:D

[stevec1]

Yes, everyone needs to sell stuff to survive. Capitalism describes what we do, it is not a set of instructions on what we SHOULD do. Somehow over the years this nuance was lost.

Fighting "capitalism" is impossible, it doesn&#39;t exist. What does exist is a habit of giving value to inanimate objects. (money) A diamond is worth thousands, but what is it really? It is just a piece of dirt, like gold. (Gold is colorful dirt.) Dollars are just printed paper. Stocks are electronic digits.

All of this insanity is held together by the intellectual agreement that money is real.

Money, theoretically, is supposed to represent time. A diamond costs more because it takes hours and hours to find one, and apples are cheap because they grow for free and all you have to do is pick one. ....but then this marketplace theory comes along that "justifies" charging more. Marx&#39;s theory of surplus capital, ironically, is what a "capitalist" aims for, but what it really describes is a slave relationship.

Everybody is a slave to the intellectual agreement of money. This web site sells stuff for the same reason we all need to: One man&#39;s debt is another man&#39;s profit. We are no longer exchanging "time" we are exchanging "money" and rendered time as a liability, rather than an asset. Time has lost its value, and the rat-race grows in its place.

It has been like this for thousands of years, even in agrarian societies, but industrialism condenses the frenzy because shortages of "money" no longer exist. Economies used to be limited by the amount of gold and silver in the marketplace, but that no longer exists. The U.S. can go into 8 Trillion in debt because it is all on paper. And, because that creates so much free credit (money), it appears that we are the richest country in the world, when in reality we are the poorest.

The empire is a ponzi scheme, and the only thing controlling it is the intellectual agreement that money is real, which is a world-wide agreement. The only difference between little capitalism and big capitalism is the size. Like a sporting event, there is a winner and a loser.

Sports is the real opiate of the masses.

[NovelGentry]

Yes, everyone needs to sell stuff to survive.

Why?


Money, theoretically, is supposed to represent time. A diamond costs more because it takes hours and hours to find one, and apples are cheap because they grow for free and all you have to do is pick one.

False. Money is designed as the pivot on which supply and demand bounces back and fourth. The cost of a product is 100% dependent on both these conditions, and in turn, both conditions are dependent on one another.

Demand can increase more than supply, however, the actual acquring of products can never exceed supply.
Supply can become more or less than demand, however, the productive capacity or finite number available can never meet demand at every corner -- money is the mediator. It is REQUIRED to make this system work. If indeed money were static and based on time as you feel it&#39;s supposed to -- these relations would spiral out of control.

Your point is also flawed, as you say it is to represent time -- you claim a diamond takes time to find (out of the control of the worker who cannot mine it until it is found) -- yet you don&#39;t account that the apple takes time to grow (out of the control of the worker, who cannot harvest the apple until it has reached it&#39;s fruition).


Marx&#39;s theory of surplus capital, ironically, is what a "capitalist" aims for, but what it really describes is a slave relationship.

The theory of surplus value is a critique of capitalist economics, so if it appears to be what a capitalist aims for, that is why. Yes, it does describe a slave relationship. This is why we call it wage slavery.

The rest of your post is generally boring, and uninteresting. It&#39;s oversimplifying the role of money as it pertains to value, it simplifies money to an expression of wealth which does not actually maintain wealth. You assume the US can just "print money" and always be rich. You even go so far as to imply that breaking out of the gold standard was a wrong turn. You place the same subjective value on a piece of metal as you do on the piece of paper -- what makes gold valuable and not paper? Because it&#39;s shiny? Because it weighs more?

Give me a break. To a person who is starving to death, food will be more valuable than gold could ever be. You now place the restrictions on who becomes the riches to who controls the richest land. How can you consider the purpose of gold and the purpose of money any different at all? The only difference is there&#39;s not enough gold in the world to represent the full wealth of the world, at least not realistically.

What determines the value of gold? The same which determines the value of money. What is a dollars worth of gold? What is 20?

Your writing is uninspired, poorly directed, and drives no singular point home. It seems like the hodgepodge of a 17 year old pseudo-intellectual, trying to prove you have grasped the nature of economic history in your hand by examining the flaws of credit, marginal value, etc. It&#39;s difficult to tell whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, as you make no significant conclusion.

[Hiero]

To link oneself with the masses, one must act in accordance with the needs and wishes of the masses. All work done for the masses must start from their needs and not from the desire of any individual, however well-intentioned. It often happens that objectively the masses need a certain change, but subjectively they are not yet conscious of the need, not yet willing or determined to make the change. In such cases, we should wait patiently. We should not make the change until, through our work, most of the masses have become conscious of the need and are willing and determined to carry it out. Otherwise we shall isolate ourselves from the masses. Unless they are conscious and willing any kind of work that requires their participation will turn out to be a mere formality and will fail. . . . There are two principles here: one is the actual needs of the masses rather than what we fancy they need, and the other is the wishes of the masses, who must make up their own minds instead of our making up their minds for them.



That is from Mao&#39;s "QUOTATIONS FROM CHAIRMAN MAO TSE-TUNG"
XI. THE MASS LINE

I would advise ALL people to read this chapter of the book. I know some of you will simple say "eeewww Mao", if you do this it is ignorance.

Parties must expand into the a comunity base, the working class, lumpen class and people of racial oppresion need to look towards leadership from the Communist Party.

It is no good to promote revolution to the masses if they are not yet revolutionary. What good is it when revolution has come and you expect to take up a leadership role any role in the revolution when you get the reply from the revolutionary masses "where were you before when we needed you, where you to back our communities" The answer would be wasting time trying to promote revolutionary ideas while the communities only wanted basic services.

[aberos]

i like jay-z. he never once claimed to be a communist. he never once claimed to be trying to incite revolution. how are you going to knock him for it then? he grew up poor as shit and now he has some money to play with. good for him. how about all of the struggling artists he signs to contracts from the streets who no longer have to walk in fear?

and as to being like che, he works damned hard for what he has got. he pulled himself out of the streets and averaged an album every 10 months throughout his entire career. not to mention that he has become a mogul and built an empire. though he obviously does not embody che politically, and he could have definitely said "i work hard as fuck" in a different way, he does bare a striking resemblance to che as far as discipline and dedication goes.

i know everyone is going to post angrily at me, but i do not like it when we act like elitists and shit on anyone who does not believe what we believe because all that does is polarize us from the rest of the world and give people a reason to despise us. not everyone believes in the same things that we do, and if we spit in their face all of the time they never will.