Capital Punishment - right or wrong

[angry]

whom of you support capital punishment..?
I think it should not be used unless it is absoloutly proofed that the convicted is guilty, I think it is beeing used way too much in China (allthough I think it is for the government is dealing with increasing population, and is trying to control such a big country)

[ComradeJunichi]

I believe this was brought up earlier.

I stand against it, but in some cases I believe it may be necessary.

[j]

The problem with the death penalty is that it is discriminatory. We have a system (including economic situation, policing, and the courts) that consistantly discriminates according to socioeconomic status, race, and religion.

Anyone remember Charles Stewart? He was this white guy who was driving through the mission hill section of roxbury (a predominately black neighborhood) in boston with his wife. He claimed that a black man car jacked him and killed his wife. It turned out that Charles is the one who killed his wife, for the insurance money. They were ready to use the death penalty against a black man who was obviously innocent. Before it was known that Charles killed her, this city (which has a history of racial problems) went crazy about the death penalty and how it should be used. Charles ended up killing himself by jumping off the tobin bridge (a high suspended bridge over the harbor). This is a classic example of how the courts discriminate.

I do not have moral objection to the death penalty when used in extreme cases. One case in point is these two guys from cambridge (a city that borders boston, its where harvard is) abducted this little boy, raped him, killed him and then put him in a plastic storage bin filled with concrete and threw the bin from a bridge in maine. Those guys deserve to fucking die.

But until we can eliminate even one person from being executed who is indeed not guilty I will be against the death penalty.

j

[Xvall]

I said before..

Capital Punishment -
Those without the Capital get the punishment.

[RAM]

You can never guarntee guilt. You may kill an inocent man!

[Anonymous]

it should only be applied in very rare cases
for exemple
there is a criminal, who isnt well in is mind, and no-one (psychiatrists) is able to understand why he is doing it
so he cant be cured
and doesnt want to be cured
but if there is a criminal who really needs to be punished, u better dont hang him, becouse that is everything but a punishment
to suffer is a punishment, not to stop suffering

[angry]

Very interesting views , as I said before I support it in extreme cases, but not unless the convicted is absoloutly guilty, I for example know the yankees also use it way to much without acceptable evidence in those cases, I have heard incredible numbers of people who have been executed that are not guilty (that is, the police found out later that they were innocent)

[Ymir]

Punishment does not solve anything. Killing does.

[angry]

ymir would you really prefer to live the rest of your life in some shitty prison, than to be dead..?

[Socialmalfunction]

i see death as a vacation, something like being suspended. it is a male going up for execution, i ask you, whats worse, being some big inmates girlfriend and sex toy? or death? sex toy i would say is the worst punishment. i dont agree with capital punishment in anyway. *boos capital punishment*

[Weidt]

In the long history of humanity, humans have punished each other with great violence and revenge. The means of death have evolved over the centuries into so-called "humane" ways of execution used today. In Europe the death penalty has been abolished ahead of the rest of the world, and many countries refuse to extradite fugitives if they may face the death penalty in the country where crime was commited. The death penalty is an injustice - a crime against humanity.

In the U.S.A., these so-called Christians believe in the execution of human beings, the revenge of crimes commited, by way of the State. The Sixth Commandant does declare "Thou Shall Not Kill", and Jesus did say "do not judge, or you shall be judged; do not condemn, or you shall be condemned." But I will step away from the hypocrasies of Christians.

Murder is a crime, whether commited by an individual, group of individuals, or by society itself. The death penalty is premeditated murder sanctioned by the State and the population under it. I do not believe criminals should be remaned to imprison indefinitely for their crimes, as humans can, and do, change throughout their lifetime. The crimes of a human should not curse the rest of their life, or extinguish it.

Many violent crimes happen in the heat of the moment, where emotions run wild. Social conditions and environment also play a big part in these individuals. Capitalism sees no shame in executing the by-product of their system, but as Socialists we must see it as a shame and reject it.

I believe it is our duty as human beings to struggle against the death penalty and to truely believe that an injury to one is an injury to all. Should criminals be punished? perhaps, but rather than sit them in cages for life, construct rehab facilities to at least help.

A major problem with the death penalty is the nature of Capitalism. The social conditions will remain, from which criminals spawn and do their deeds. Our first step is to abolish the death penalty now, than to abolish Capitalism itself. Only than can we truely be free humans and shall crime rapidly decline into the history books of the future.

[Nateddi]

>>In the long history of humanity, humans have punished each other with great violence and revenge. The means of death have evolved over the centuries into so-called "humane" ways of execution used today. In Europe the death penalty has been abolished ahead of the rest of the world, and many countries refuse to extradite fugitives if they may face the death penalty in the country where crime was commited. The death penalty is an injustice - a crime against humanity.

Blatant opinions. In Europe, those who commit death-penalty crimes will go to prison for the rest of their life. These people will not be let back into society. What you are doing is using taxpayer money to keep people alive for many decades until the shrivel up and die. This money can be easily used to maintaing good public transportation, improve public parks and recreation, fund welfare programs for the needy, or return money to the taxpayer for personal use. If the criminal is going to be kept apart from freedom for the rest of their life, it is not any more inhumane as a simple execution.


>>In the U.S.A., these so-called Christians believe in the execution of human beings, the revenge of crimes commited, by way of the State. The Sixth Commandant does declare "Thou Shall Not Kill", and Jesus did say "do not judge, or you shall be judged; do not condemn, or you shall be condemned." But I will step away from the hypocrasies of Christians.

Wow, great religion bashing. I sympathize with you because I do not support the christian right, though you must keep in mind, not all christians are on the right. I believe in the execution of human beings not as a form of revenge. If the criminal has committed a horrible crime from which the criminal cannot be rehabilitated from, it is only sane to put them to death instead of wasting money to watch them rot in prison.


>>Murder is a crime, whether commited by an individual, group of individuals, or by society itself. The death penalty is premeditated murder sanctioned by the State and the population under it.

Murder is "the unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice". An execution by the State is not murder because it has no premeditated malice. An execution by the state is a service to society.


>> I do not believe criminals should be remaned to imprison indefinitely for their crimes, as humans can, and do, change throughout their lifetime. The crimes of a human should not curse the rest of their life, or extinguish it.

This is completely dependant on the crime. Serial rapists or killers are obviously retarded. If a crime is commited for which it is deemed impossible to rehabilitate one from, it is either life in prison or the death penalty to be suited as an appropriate sentance, you already know which I support and why.


>>Many violent crimes happen in the heat of the moment, where emotions run wild. Social conditions and environment also play a big part in these individuals.

If a criminal can be rehabilitated from commiting a similar crime again, the criminal in my opinion should be at some point released. There should not be a single standard, people are retarded in some aspects of their mind causing them to kill. I do not want such people released or for that matter be in prisons where they can harm prisoners serving minor sentences.


>>Capitalism sees no shame in executing the by-product of their system, but as Socialists we must see it as a shame and reject it.

Capitalism is an economic system. It has nothing to do with executions. We see capitalist nations without the death penalty (Europe), we see non-capitalist nations still using it (Cuba, North Korea). How again is it a byproduct of capitalism?


>>I believe it is our duty as human beings to struggle against the death penalty and to truely believe that an injury to one is an injury to all. Should criminals be punished? perhaps, but rather than sit them in cages for life, construct rehab facilities to at least help.

Prison time can rehab most "normal" criminals. Those which require medical facilities for rehab should be simply executed. These medical facilities cost a great deal of money, and chances are they still will not work. Why not put the money into some real progressive public programs instead of spending the taxpayer money on the scum of society.


>>A major problem with the death penalty is the nature of Capitalism. The social conditions will remain, from which criminals spawn and do their deeds. Our first step is to abolish the death penalty now, than to abolish Capitalism itself. Only than can we truely be free humans and shall crime rapidly decline into the history books of the future.

As I've stated earlier. Capitalism may use the death penalty but it is no way exclusive to capitalism. From history, it seems that it is very common with socialist nations. Your point about social conditions under capitalism is correct to that they cause great crime. This one of the many reasons I am against capitalism. But this has nothing whatsoever to do with the death penalty.

I see a problem with socialists nowadays. Socialism and Communism used to be about working-class values and the struggle for working-class rights. You have a hammer and sickel in your avatar, symbolizing the international solidarity of the workers of the world. You may as well replace it with a white flag and some handcuffs, with a marijuana leaf in the background, and a dead fetus holding the two objects. It appears that nowadays most socialists have placed liberal values in higher regard of working-class values. Socialism used to be a foundation of a new society run by and for those who produce the wealth, with no greedy fat cats at the top. It was flexible to be democratic for those who are conservative christian and pro-life or liberal for the reform of drug laws. It is now exclusively liberal and extremely liberal.

[angry]

great deal of work, the both of you, although as I said before I support capital punishment up to a certain point..

[peaccenicked]

The Stalinists who are reactionary through and through,
have this thing about working class values, there is no such thing. There are human values, somehow the stalinists have set up a cover posing reactionaty values as working class values.
Class society is rotten through and through, and socialists want to get rid of it. We want to bring the whole ractionary brutal system down, death penalty and all. Socialists champion human values as their universal realisation needs an end to class society.
Liberals fall down because they want class society to continue but liberal causes have been thoroughly integrated into the struggle for socialism as part and parcel of the struggle for human liberation. The idea that ''liberal issues'' is a diversion was scorned by Lenin,
who tried too bring every struggle to the level of State.

[Nateddi]

peacenicked,

working class values are basic values benefiting the working class. everyone is different in the world however. some people consider abortion and the use of drugs inhumane or unhuman. some people consider the deathpenalty not being inhumane but being a just punishment. you are basically dictating hardline liberal values that in todays society much more disagree with than agree with, you are integrating these values with the general fight to emancipate the working class.

[ID2002]

I am against capital punishment.

[Anonymous]

Im afraid im in favour of the death penalty. Money saved from the prison system could be invested in ensuring that someone is guilty.

[Ymir]

"ymir would you really prefer to live the rest of your life in some shitty prison, than to be dead..? "-angry

I'd rather be in prison than be executed. If I were alive I would have a chance to escape, besides I am an athiest so death would NOT be a good thing. What's your point in asking me?

[Nateddi]

>>I'd rather be in prison than be executed.
Ymir, have you ever seen the Shawshank Redemption? Excellent movie.

>>If I were alive I would have a chance to escape
all the more reasons to have a death penalty. I don't wish to have life-sentence convicts escaping.

>> besides I am an athiest so death would NOT be a good thing.
I believe if you are a religious person, you would go to hell according to your religion. I see atheism as one of the better beliefs for people who will die for a terrible crime they have committed.

[Linksradikaler]

From a socialist point of view:

I believe people who commit violent crimes should be removed from society and forced to work twice as hard for twice as long for whatever length of time it takes them to rehabilitate or to die. The death penalty should be abolished, but only because it deprives society of an able-bodied worker who can be pushed to work without concern for their individual rights as long as they are imprisoned. Death, in my socialist/productionist opinion is a waste of very cheap labor.

For example, a murderer can be put to work on a metal lathe for 14 hours a day (or however long per day it takes him to meet his work quota) in a remote work camp (or an offshore platform) until he has repaid his debt to society. All proceeds from his work could go towards the family of his victims. He could be fed the exact number of calories per day to keep him working and no more. Escape risks and violent prisoners can work at solitary jobs in secure lockdown 23 hours a day, with their rations dictated by their work output.

Sounds rough. But is it as bad as the electric chair?

Socialist justice is more hardcore (and more productive) than capitalist justice.

[Nateddi]

Your idea is worse than the electric chair.

The duty of the justice system is to rehabilitate criminals to be reintroduced into society, not to torture or exploit them. Those which cannot be rehabilitated should be executed. I don't support slave labor, socialism is self-sufficient to the point it does not need to exploit.

[Linksradikaler]

"The duty of the justice system is to rehabilitate criminals to be reintroduced into society, not to torture or exploit them."

Offenders can be taught a skill while they work to repay their debt to society and the family of the murder victim. Don't forget the VICTIM. They learn a skill, they can use that skill when they are free again within the socialist system.

"Those which cannot be rehabilitated should be executed. I don't support slave labor, socialism is self-sufficient to the point it does not need to exploit."

Execution is wrong and barbaric. Who are we to kill anyone? The offender who cannot be rehabilitated can spend the rest of his days working.

I think we simply disagree.

[Nateddi]

slavery is more barbaric, and more immoral than execution

[Anonymous]

What do you do with those who refuse to work?

[Linksradikaler]

Those who refuse to work starve. They are in complete control of their survival. Should they refuse to work, they get no rations, and they die. They would have essentially commiteed suicide and would not have been killed by the state.

And as far as slavery being worse than execution, I'd say that is a judgement call. I'm sure all the descendants of slaves in America are glad their ancestors weren't executed.

[ID2002]

I've got to agree with "Linksradikaler"...he makes a valid point.

[Linksradikaler]

One more point:

The executed man can go through no positive transformation to emerge a better person. The man working as forced labor is alive and can come to his senses. He can say to himself: "Gee, I'm tired and I want to go home. I want to amend my life. I want to get some sleep and decent food. I want air conditioning."

I think those that have their misanthropic spirit broken after a few years of REAL hard labor should be entitled to move out of eeh hardest conditions into easier conditions. But, no matter what the prisoner says, he must spend a minimum (5 years?) of time at the very depths of the hardest labor, with a year added for each violent or disobedient episode.

The drawback of the death penalty? Dead men can't convert.

[angry]

Ymir, what is an atheist, (sry I don´t know, me knowledge on english isn´t that good)..?
What´s me point, "Punishment does not solve anything. Killing does. ", think twice before you ask next..

Linksradikaler; So what you are saying is that you support slave labor camp (and therefor I draw the conclusion that you are somekind of a stalinist), do you want the Kolag again..? Slavor camp is way more cruel than death penalty, think about it, what would you choose, work 14 hours a day, and get exactly what you need just not to die, to eat..?!?!?..(+ that when you get out, and if you get out alive from that, you´ll be a broken man, no use to society whatsoever, probobly end up comitting suicide, and yes that does mean the state killed you in a barbarian way, (of course not technicly, but any sane person can see that it was ´cause of the state that you comitted suicide)!!, you just can´t be serious about this "theorie" of yours!

"And as far as slavery being worse than execution, I'd say that is a judgement call. I'm sure all the descendants of slaves in America are glad their ancestors weren't executed." And please, are you serious with this..?!?? the African slaves didn´t do anything against the law, they were kidnapped from their homes and were ordered to work, not because of they did anything to society, this is no example of what we are disscussing here..!

[antieverything]

While most everyone agrees that some people deserve to die, the problem is that we put somebody in charge who has the power to decide who dies. I feel that it would be best for everyone if we were to simply abolish the death penalty...in America about 10% of death row inmates have been found innocent later. The issue is not if capital punishment is just but rather if people are able to decide life and death issues fairly. I don't believe that anyone should have authority over the right of another to live.

Oh, by the way, an execution costs more than a life sentance.

[Ymir]

An atheist is someone who doesnt believe in god. And in my case I don't believe in another life either. So if I die, i'm dead for good.

[peaccenicked]

From Nateddi
''peacenicked,

working class values are basic values benefiting the working class. everyone is different in the world however. some people consider abortion and the use of drugs inhumane or unhuman. some people consider the death penalty not being inhumane but being a just punishment. you are basically dictating hardline liberal values that in todays society much more disagree with
than agree with, you are integrating these values with the general fight to emancipate the working class.''

Of course people in the world are different, I dont think
I take a hardline at all. Being opposed to the death penalty,
wanting the womans right to choose, advocating relaxed attitudes towards drugs are all pretty soft policies. It is not me who is integrating liberal issues with the socialist movement. It is part of our tradition.
I advocate these things because the benefit workers especially in regards to State tyranny. The Trotskyists tend to be with me here, even the Moaists, the anarchists also.
In opposition is:
What Lenin called economistic tendency who focused on the narrow trade union struggles and disregarded the social struggle, and pandered to the backwardness, not the fighting spirit of workers .
The stalinists follow in their footsteps.

(Edited by peaccenicked at 4:54 am on Aug. 4, 2002)


(Edited by peaccenicked at 5:20 am on Aug. 4, 2002)

[bluerev002]

i just dont like da death penalty.

its wrong not because of religion (im not religious) but because its just wrong! i mean your taking a life away!
how are you supposed to learn your lesson if yoiu dead!

i dont like capitalism period and some of the punishments are not even working! my dads friend was caught posesing weed, guns, and about $4,000 made from selling that stuff and they only chared him $500 and hes free. dont get me wrong thats kinda cool how you can get away with stuff like that but the punishments dont work, what kind of punishment is paying 500 bucks when you have 4,000.

[pastradamus]

If you kill a person for commiting a crime,than what makes you so much better than that person?

[Nateddi]

>>its wrong not because of religion (im not religious) but because its just wrong! i mean your taking a life away!

the alternative is life in prison. it is expensive misery for the criminal at the expense of the taxpayer. the life that is being taken away is of a ruthless criminal such as a murderer or a serial rapist; this person cannot be let back into society and must be dealt with by life in prison or a death penalty.


>>how are you supposed to learn your lesson if yoiu dead!

the duty of the criminal justice system isn't to punish, it is to rehabilitate a person for re-enterance into society. if life in prison can have somoene learn their lesson, i hardly see the point considering they will not be free again, nor will this lesson change mental conditions which are a likely possibility of a cause of a crime.


>>i dont like capitalism period and some of the punishments are not even working! my dads friend was caught posesing weed, guns, and about $4,000 made from selling that stuff and they only chared him $500 and hes free. dont get me wrong thats kinda cool how you can get away with stuff like that but the punishments dont work, what kind of punishment is paying 500 bucks when you have 4,000.

this has nothing to do with capitalism. this is about a criminal justice system, not an economic system.


>>If you kill a person for commiting a crime,than what makes you so much better than that person?

it brings justice to the victim's relatives, the taxpayers, and the society. the relatives don't have to worry about a criminal possibly being better off than the victim. the taxpayers do not have to pay tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep a criminal alive for the rest of their life. the society benefits by the fact that a unrehabilitatable criminal is being dealt with in a way which benefits the general populatoin.

restating; those which can be rehabilitated do not get life sentence crimes, they should get 20 year terms or so. for those that cannot be rehabilitated and must be jailed for life or executed, it is a service to everyone to have them executed instead of having them being jailed for life for the reasons i've mensioned.
try something more clever next time, pa, i've debunked all these comments in previous responces, you should have a read before posting.

[peaccenicked]

''>>its wrong not because of religion (im not religious) but because its just wrong! i mean your taking a life away!

the alternative is life in prison. it is expensive misery for the criminal at the expense of the taxpayer. the life that is being taken away is of a ruthless criminal such as a murderer or a serial rapist; this person cannot be let back into society and must be dealt with by life in prison or a death penalty. ''

Life is not a matter of expense. The trouble with prison reform is that it is lame. I have known some lifers, they have a couple of things in common. Christianity, the ticket out, institutionalised behaviours,and 15-20 years distance away from their crime.
Life imprisonment rarely means life. It means years learning how to be helpless and how to comply to authority. Taking someones personal liberty is a severe punishment. Nobody likes it unless that is all they are used to. It is not a matter of forgiverness but doing the job of rehabilitation properly, that means preparing people for a new life. This requires money but there is enough money about! Civilised people dont execute people they give them the care need to bring them into
society.
The present prison system is barbaric and needs totally overhauled. We need a society that tackles the cause of crime not one that adds to it, by legitimizing violence against the person.

[Anonymous]

Quote: from Linksradikaler on 10:58 pm on Aug. 3, 2002
Those who refuse to work starve. They are in complete control of their survival. Should they refuse to work, they get no rations, and they die. They would have essentially commiteed suicide and would not have been killed by the state.




You cannot call incarceration and withholding of food suicide. Without state intervention this person would be able to buy food and survive therefore the state would have killed them in a much more cruel way than capital punishment

[James]

the life that is being taken away is of a ruthless criminal such as a murderer or a serial rapist;

But what if he/she is not guilty? And has been wrongly sentensed? Or does that never happen in your world?

[Nateddi]

James i did not say I liked the present US justice system, guilt should be proved completely.

in any case, if its a death-penalty crime, and the death penalty is abolished, the person would just have to serve a life term which isn't any better.

[Napalm Dust]

I don't think capital punishment should be contemplated at all.
To simplify it completely; it's wrong.
There is too much risk that an innocent person will be killed. Racist police, corrupted officials, anything along these lines could cause an innocent person to die. And what gives the authorities the right to kill someone.
"He who is without sin cast the first stone"
I'm not a religious person, but this came to my mind and it makes perfect sense.

The point that was made about wasting the tax-payers money keeping a convicted criminal in jail for life is true. But the system should be changed so that money should be taken from the criminal as a further punishment to assist the cost.
I'm sure they would prefer this than dying.

"The Green Mile" and "Dead Man Walking" have influenced my opinion of the death penalty.

(Edited by Napalm Dust at 9:37 pm on Aug. 4, 2002)

[Nateddi]

I am not talking about the american justice system, i am talking about in general, in an ideal society.

I would rather spend money to have fair trials, and ensure fair trials. If a trial is fair, and a person is guilty of a bad crime (torturous murder, rape and murder, multiple murders), i don't see a reason of using funds which can be used to benefit the good people in society, those not in jails, instead of keeping a criminal alive for the rest of their life. The "its wrong" argument isn't going to convince anyone because it has no legitimate merit, just personal opinion.

[Anonymous]

Well said Nateddi.

[bluerev002]

i think the biggest mistake is going easy on the drunk drivers. i hate that, they should be punished more sevireley, especially when they kill someone.

[vox]

It seems to me that Nateddi is very directly equating human life with money. I, personally, find that to be a rather appalling principle and one that should be abandoned.

vox

[Nateddi]

vox,

you have a point, though if you read all my responses you would notice its a lesser important one, out of quite a few reasons i mensioned.

[Anonymous]

Anyone have any stats for the number of prisoners who re-offend?

[angry]

Well, I dont know exactly, but I think it is somewhere around 60-80% here...but then of course it has to be considered that I live in a small country, and we have the same drug addicts comitting crimes over and over and over etc..

I agree with what nateddi is saying, and vox you got a point like nateddi said, but we are talking about a person that is unable to rehabiliate, or that has comitted a crime against society that is so evil and inhuman that even that the person is able to rehabilate should not be let out to society again..( I am talking about rape-murder, child melestig and mass murders),
and in most cases these kind of criminals have a high percent rate of re-offending..
what do you think about this..?